Banespeak: Why the Avengers will win AvX

Posted by Saren (25215 posts) - - Show Bio

[Haven't done a real blog in quite a while now]

Just my opinion subject to all sorts of change as events play out, but if there was every any doubt over who's going to win the war between the Avengers and the X-Men, Avengers vs X-Men #6 kind of gives it away.

This is a fairly common trope in comic books: godlike messianic figures use their power to make the world fine and dandy for everyone.........

........until one of two things happens:

  • They decide that they can do more, regardless of commonly accepted limits on what should and should not be done, believing themselves to be both above such limits and responsible for raising the unwashed masses to a higher state whether they like it or not; OR
  • It is revealed that their gifts to mankind were merely a ruse to win the trust of aforementioned unwashed masses (I like that phrase, sue me) so as to lower the guard of their beneficiaries in order to accomplish more nefarious goals.

It seems to me that the Phoenix Five fall under the former category, but regardless of which category they fall under, such a trope only has one possible ending: the messianic figures are outed as villains or transition slowly but surely into villainy, and then the Real Genuine Honest to Goodness Heroes take them down.

This is how AvX will end. "Bullsh!t", I hear you exclaim. Fine, look at past examples of this trope:

The Hyperclan

The Hyperclan made their first appearances in the earliest issues of the third volume of JLA. They initially introduced themselves as peaceful wanderers of the universe who wanted nothing more than to make their new home a better place for all:

Sound familiar?

They did all sorts of wonderful things like making the Sahara desert fertile for crops, cutting down the metahuman crime rate by over 60%, etc etc. Everyone loved them, Protex was even voted "Sexiest Man in the Universe" by the Sunday Planet. Everything seemed fine but appearances deceived; it was revealed that they Hyperclan were less peaceful spacemen and more murderous White Martians intent on conquering the Earth after subduing the population via mind-control.

The JLA then got up and kicked their butts off the planet. So:

  • Godlike messianic figures: Check
  • Work miracles: Check
  • Exposed as villains/slowly become villains: Check
  • Defeated by heroes: Check

Trope fulfilled.

John Clay and the Transcendence Movement

Here's one from the pages of The Authority. John Clay was a preacher who rose to prominence by playing on public distrust of superheroes with no accountability for their actions. In his own words, he was on a "quest to elevate the human consciousness". At its peak, the Church of Transcendence numbered over 70% of the world's population, and engaged in a number of admirable goals including world peace and whatever else it is that is admirable, I suppose.

.......until, of course, it was revealed that the real reason so many people joined his church wasn't so much that they liked his message or his beliefs, it was because he could spread a psychic virus that brought people under his control upon skin contact. Clay was a megalomaniac, not an altruist.

The Authority, being the Real Genuine Honest to Goodness Heroes of this particular story, opposed Clay, and he was kicking their asses in the Big Final Clash of Good vs Evil. Until the Doctor got involved and then.........let's just say things didn't end well for him.

Checklist!

  • Godlike messianic figure: Check
  • Works miracles: Check
  • Exposed as villain/slowly becomes villain: Check
  • Defeated by heroes: Check

Trope fulfilled.

King Thor

After Odin's death in the war against Surtur, the throne of Asgard passed down to Thor, and the Odin Force came with it. So you have a messianic figure who is an actual god right there, and he began performing various miracles like bringing Asgardian magic and medicine to Midgard, dethroning tyrants and despots across the globe, and so on. He even had his own legion of human followers, the Thorists.

Thor for his part saw nothing wrong with his work.

The social, economical, political and even theological implications of the things Thor was doing made a lot of people nervous, even his fellow gods. More importantly, it made the governments of the world nervous, and they hatched a plan to kill Thor and get rid of Asgard. Thor didn't take kindly to it.

Both New York and Asgard were destroyed and the alternate future of The Reigning began. In this future, Thor ruled over the Earth with an iron fist, having killed the Avengers 16 years prior and shut down all opposition to his rule.

Checklist!

  • Godlike messianic figure: Check
  • Works miracles: Check
  • Exposed as villain/slowly becomes villain: Check
  • Defeated by heroes: Urrm, this example deviates from the pattern a bit. Thor wasn't defeated by any heroes. After the final battle with Desak, he realized the mistakes he had made and went back in time to stop his past self from committing those mistakes, thus averting the Reigning future.

So.....Check, kinda?

Trope fulfilled.

Godlike messianic figures are almost never the heroes in comics. The Phoenix Five will slowly transition into villainy (there are signs of it already) and then the Avengers will take them down with Grit and Righteousness and maybe some big-ass guns. This is how AvX will end.

Moderator
#1 Edited by Strider92 (16032 posts) - - Show Bio

As soon as I read issue 6 I knew they were setting up the Avengers to win. The X-men are most likely going to become corrupted by the Phoenix force(You can see it happening in AvX: Infinite and AvX: 6) but really since the Avengers movie came out and all the publicity they've been getting, would they really have the Avengers lose this event so close to it?

They'll probably make it up to the X-men somehow by having a few of them fight for the Avengers when they see the Phoenix 5 have gone gaga (my money would be on Magneto, Storm and Beast).

Online
#2 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

Urgh, this is such bollocks. I would be nice for the X-Men to win for once. The Avengers are the ones who caused this to happen.

#3 Posted by Crimsonlord53 (1291 posts) - - Show Bio

Why anyone would think this event would go the X-men's way is beyond me it's the phoenix force your dealing with here. Looking to take a 16 year old girl as a host who was not trained to exert control over here own powers never mind the phoenix. That just spelled trouble to me.

#4 Posted by Augment (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Bullsh!t I say!

But seriously, this is absolutely true. I loved your source material, and I completely forgot about the King Thor incident. It's a very good example and a sign that Marvel sticks to its guns when it thinks something worked successfully (I mean, AvX wouldn't be around if they didn't think Fear Itself was successful [I had to wash my tongue after that]).

Now let's just hope to God they don't do this with Batman Inc.

#5 Posted by TDK_1997 (14411 posts) - - Show Bio

From the beginning I was sure that the Avengers will win.

#6 Edited by Lvenger (17855 posts) - - Show Bio

Totally called it after issue 6 as well. Marvel reusing old plot devices is nothing new. It's why I never bother with Marvel events. Obviously the Phoenix Five will start doing dubious stuff which they say is for the good of humanity and then the Avengers come along and kick their hides. I've been rooting for the Avengers all the time though as Avengers vs X-Men is based on a stupid premise. Excellent blog by the way.

#7 Posted by Mercy_ (92257 posts) - - Show Bio

Shut up, Bane. With all your evidence and BS.

(Enjoyable read. Great job)

Moderator
#8 Posted by venomoushatred1001 (12334 posts) - - Show Bio

@TDK_1997 said:

From the beginning I was sure that the Avengers will win.

#9 Posted by Remi (613 posts) - - Show Bio

Could have just said because of the movie.

#10 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

Good post, but you didn't need to write all that. All you needed to write was the Avengers just had their own movie and Marvel loves to suck on the Avengers.

#11 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32107 posts) - - Show Bio

@Remi said:

Could have just said because of the movie.

@JoseDRiveraTCR7 said:

Good post, but you didn't need to write all that. All you needed to write was the Avengers just had their own movie and Marvel loves to suck on the Avengers.

Online
#12 Posted by Hareil0079 (429 posts) - - Show Bio

I laugh Marvel does a 180 on everyone and have the P5 win and puts the Avengers at odds end with the general masses or create a new ver. of AoA but renamed AoP5 or AoC

#13 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

@Hareil0079 said:

I laugh Marvel does a 180 on everyone and have the P5 win and puts the Avengers at odds end with the general masses or create a new ver. of AoA but renamed AoP5 or AoC

...but that's not going to happen at all.

#14 Posted by Illuminatus (9480 posts) - - Show Bio

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

#15 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

#16 Posted by Illuminatus (9480 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

I read.

#17 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

I read.

Either you didn't get my joke, or I didn't get yours...

#18 Posted by Illuminatus (9480 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

I read.

Either you didn't get my joke, or I didn't get yours...

Milk was a bad choice.

#19 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

I read.

Either you didn't get my joke, or I didn't get yours...

Milk was a bad choice.

Now I'm just f*cking lost.

#20 Posted by Illuminatus (9480 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

I read.

Either you didn't get my joke, or I didn't get yours...

Milk was a bad choice.

Now I'm just f*cking lost.

I hated that show.

#21 Posted by ReVamp (22863 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

@ReVamp said:

@Illuminatus said:

Wake me up when Marvel decides to do something truly original.

...Suicide is never the answer, no matter how bad it gets, ya heard?

I read.

Either you didn't get my joke, or I didn't get yours...

Milk was a bad choice.

Now I'm just f*cking lost.

I hated that show.

Me too, it didn't make any sense. I had a friend that was a total groupie for it though, never understood why.

#22 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Sadly it's the fans who lose...forced to read this drivel where both sides act like egotistical pouting children. At this point neither side has the moral high ground and no matter who comes out on top (or how) I see no way I will not still feel cheated.

The whole event has been rolled out in such a bizarre manner I really cannot say it's as sure of a thing as you say, but I tend to lean towards your way of thinking on it.

#23 Edited by ApatheticAvenger (1636 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm telling you guys, the Marvel "Architects" read Alan Moore's Miracleman and got the bright idea to play it out their own way in AvX.

Cyclops is acting a little too much like Miracleman, what with the contemplating his humanity after gaining god-like powers, for it to NOT have been an influence. Ultimately, the Avengers are right in that a utopia is bad for humanity.

How exactly are we supposed to believe the X-Men can win this? The only way is if the mutant race is actually reborn, which would at least be a victory in their eyes.

#24 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5768 posts) - - Show Bio
@Brazen_Intellect said:

Sadly it's the fans who lose...forced to read this drivel where both sides act like egotistical pouting children. At this point neither side has the moral high ground and no matter who comes out on top (or how) I see no way I will not still feel cheated.

The whole event has been rolled out in such a bizarre manner I really cannot say it's as sure of a thing as you say, but I tend to lean towards your way of thinking on it.

I definitely agree with this. I always thought that the Avengers might win because of the movie mainly and this feels like a terrible reason to even have this event in the first place.
#25 Posted by God_Spawn (37140 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought this was obvious from the moment this sh*t was announced.

Moderator
#26 Posted by Saren (25215 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, yes, I could have just said "because of the movie" but I thought this was a decent reason as well.

Moderator
#27 Edited by Hareil0079 (429 posts) - - Show Bio

@ApatheticAvenger said:

I'm telling you guys, the Marvel "Architects" read Alan Moore's Miracleman and got the bright idea to play it out their own way in AvX.

Cyclops is acting a little too much like Miracleman, what with the contemplating his humanity after gaining god-like powers, for it to NOT have been an influence. Ultimately, the Avengers are right in that a utopia is bad for humanity.

How exactly are we supposed to believe the X-Men can win this? The only way is if the mutant race is actually reborn, which would at least be a victory in their eyes.

@Brazen_Intellect said:

Sadly it's the fans who lose...forced to read this drivel where both sides act like egotistical pouting children. At this point neither side has the moral high ground and no matter who comes out on top (or how) I see no way I will not still feel cheated.

The whole event has been rolled out in such a bizarre manner I really cannot say it's as sure of a thing as you say, but I tend to lean towards your way of thinking on it.

I agree with both, cause it's pretty much how I feel.

I was hyped for this event i the beginning but now, I'm utterly disappointed, not caring who wins and just simply reading out of sheer curiosity of seeing what happens next.

Marvel can always pull a 180 on it's fans as part of things to change in the MU/ramifications but then... one just has to wonder.

Edit: The little details in this event everyone seems to overlook and miss what Marvel is trying to setup for "big surprises, revelations,turn arounds"

Hell the PF may just kill off most of the earths population as part of a rebirth process like it's doing to every other planet.

#28 Posted by Osian2 (455 posts) - - Show Bio

Another common element is that the heroes don't just "decide" to go all villain they're pushed. In King Thor the government plant to kill Thor just because he make them "nervous". I get nervous when I'm alone in a new place but that doesn't mean I plan to kill everyone! You can see the signs in AVX, Charles thinks they're "cheating" and that change should happen naturally (really?...REALLY?). The Avengers are already working on ways to kill the phoenix five and are even ignoring the opinions of Beast and Black Panther (the two most rational members). The president is even supporting the Avenger! When the hell did heroes start working to stop world peace!?

#29 Posted by Adnan (1037 posts) - - Show Bio

I've seen a lot of people discussing the possibility of X-men ending up in a seperate universe for themselves. I don't read AvX so I'm not sure how likely that is, but it certainly sounds interesting.

#30 Posted by MadeinBangladesh (5856 posts) - - Show Bio

I knew Avengers would win, but I side with the XMEN. Why can't the avengers just leave them alone?

#31 Posted by BMEZY (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

The X-Men were getting the short end of the stick for the past decade now...They ruled the 90s though...

#32 Posted by Matezoide2 (15994 posts) - - Show Bio

This whole event is terrible and it is flat out clear that the X-Men ,at this point,are not worth any trust.

#33 Edited by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

So the Avengers break into Utopia to kidnap a child from people that had done nothing but help the world, who as of a week before the world for the most part hated and despised their entire species and of course its the X-men that shouldn't be trusted.... yah understanding the logic there. Hell even the invasion of Wakanda by Namor, they imprison Transonic, their harboring fugitives that declared war on the PF5 without any provocation and they actually act surprised when Namor shows up with an army and a tidle wave? Hell even before Namor got the PF thats the sort of thing that would have royally pissed him off.

I can understand making plans for if the PF5 goes off their rocker, personally antagonizing them by kidnapping their messiah strikes me as the absolute worse possible way to go about it and insuring the PF5 do exactly what you were afraid they would do.

As for the main point of this thread, I really hope not, god I'll be upset if they go along with that same old cliche.

#34 Posted by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio
How does any of thesee tropes apply to avengers vs x men?

1. Character interactions and internal monologues have already shown that the PF5 are not evil.

2. The X-men have already stated they  wont interfere in the people of earths business as long as they didn't create war, create weapons of mass destruction, perform genocide, or attack their people. And as far as them doing more is concerned, yeah they did do more. They gave the world clean sustainable energy. And they did so by negotiating peacefully with a formally hostile alien race.

3. We already know the xmen are not secret invaders intent on secretly taking over the planet. Because as i said before, internal monologues and dialogue between the charcters show that the PF has not taken over The PF5.  And they have the power to turn the planet to ash, enslave the entire planet with telepathy, take away free will. But they haven't. If they wanted to take over they would have done so.

4. The avengers have been the aggressors this whole time. They have invaded the X-men's homes more than once. Attacked children, and kidnapped their Messiah. If anything this shows a deep fall for avengers coming up. Summers and his pals aren't leaving this event with possession of the PF. Regardless of the way it ends for them, the people of earth arent going to like the fact that the avengers ended paradise. Namor has already flipped out and attacked an entire country because of the Avengers recent attack on the mutants. Namor crossed the line but he didn't do it because he was possessed or evil. He did it because Namor is Namor. As far as he's concerned the Avengers have declared war on him and is people. Cyclops didn't condone Namors, actions but also viewed the avengers attack as a declaration of war. Invading their homes, Kidnapping hope, attacking children, and creating  "Phoenix Killer" weapons. They have resorted to using Scarlet Witch as a weapon against them. The women who single handily brought the mutant race to near extinction. It's odd seeing so many people viewing this event as Cyclops being crazy, and the PF5 as evil. The avengers are the evil ones as far as the mutant race is concerned. They offered peace, the Avengers wanted war. If Scott does go down the dark side and tries to kill the Avengers. How can anyone blame him? In the end Scott or one of the other PF members will be responsible for Charles Xavier's death. This is going to be a lose lose.
#35 Posted by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio
@Matezoide2 said:

This whole event is terrible

#36 Posted by Saren (25215 posts) - - Show Bio

Just checking in on this thread to say that I was right; the P5 are becoming tyrants and the other X-Men (Kitty, Rogue, Iceman) are less than happy about the new Utopia. So there!

Moderator
#37 Posted by SupahForeigner (227 posts) - - Show Bio

Very nice read, great job Bane. I agree with you

#38 Posted by Hyper_God (930 posts) - - Show Bio

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