Avengers Vs. X-Men - In Other Words

#1 Edited by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been away from comic vine a while. Lots of reasons... Hadn't planned on coming back just yet, but the "Avengers vs. X-Men" thing has happened.... sigh... So, rather than saying what's on my mind, I thought I'd just sort of present the story arc with different dialogue... I hope it speaks for itself. Just read the panels in order. I hope the point is made.

  1. Provide free food to the starving.

  2. Provide clean and free energy to the planet

  3. Reduce crime

  4. Bring peaceful resolution to wars

  • The Avengers can't approve of all this... this.... um... making the earth nearly perfect, so they decided to continually attack mutants bearing the Pheonix Force, or as Reed Richards put it, "The only ones getting hurt here are YOU because you keep poking them with a stick.)

And here we are.... The inevitable 'Pheonix Force Going Bad' thing... No, surprise. And fortunately Captain America and the Avengers hurried things along by illegally attacking people who had broken NO laws....

These Marvel Events are SO forced... They want a 'Super neato torpedo kewl battle' so they force the characters (that we know and love) to act OUT of character, JUST so they can get into a fight that makes no sense.

  • Wolverine betraying mutants

  • Captain America invading another country without the U.S. making a formal declaration of war... This is something that the icon of liberty and the American Way just would never do... Sure, Tony Stark would do this, but not Captain America.

  • The Thing (Ben Grimm) giving Namor an extra kick because he was possessed by a cosmic force and went a little crazy... Gosh, didn't Ben Grimm experience something like that only months ago? (on the Marvel time scale)

  • Scott Summers COMPLETELY forgetting how bad the Pheonix Force can and how it can.. well, basically destroy everything...

  • The Avengers parking themselves about 20 feet from the Jean Grey School for mutants... and then.. and then... (are you ready for it?) Frenzy (angry wench / newer X-Man) calls Moon Knight crazy (which he IS) and..... HE ATTACKS HER. Gosh, that is so very like the Avengers. Someone calls you a name (and they're accurate) and you break the law and assault them... And then we have Avengers fighting mutant children because someone called Moon Knight crazy.... Yeah, that sounds reasonable...

Well, there's other stuff, but I have to go cook dinner

#2 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently:

Namor invades Wakanda. After they kidnapped Hope.

Colossus and Magik go evil.

Emma mind controls people and Cyclops...well isn't the red speedo criminal enough?

#3 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (778 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: so... we should just ignore all the past events involving the phoenix force, which destroyed planets and galaxies, trust the fate of the world into the xmens hands, and PRAY that in the 50/50- no, 90/10 chance that the phoenix may or may not ressurect mutants OR just destroy the planet... yeah no

#4 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider fan1 said:

@Timandm: so... we should just ignore all the past events involving the phoenix force, which destroyed planets and galaxies, trust the fate of the world into the xmens hands, and PRAY that in the 50/50- no, 90/10 chance that the phoenix may or may not ressurect mutants OR just destroy the planet... yeah no

Iinteresting conclusion... So, you're saying. You DO agree that Captain America wrongfully invaded another country?

#6 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (778 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: i agree that yes they invaded another country, wrongfully? no. The xmen were harboring the person who was supposedly destined to host the phoenix, and instead of trying to help, they want to take the chance that she MIGHT be able to help their species.. or it could just blow up the planet. and the hiding thing, it would work possibly because it wont destroy the planet while trying to find its host. it was mostly to buy time until they found a way to stop it. but if you want to be technical, yes i do agree that captain america did invade a country

#7 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider fan1 said:

@Timandm: i agree that yes they invaded another country, wrongfully? no. The xmen were harboring the person who was supposedly destined to host the phoenix, and instead of trying to help, they want to take the chance that she MIGHT be able to help their species.. or it could just blow up the planet. and the hiding thing, it would work possibly because it wont destroy the planet while trying to find its host. it was mostly to buy time until they found a way to stop it. but if you want to be technical, yes i do agree that captain america did invade a country

FIRST - How well would things have gone if, say, the Japanese government had the person who was to be the host of the Pheonix and Cap showed up and and said, "Give me this citizen of yours! I'm not asking!"

SECOND - You say the X-men were "Harboring" the person... No, they weren't "Harboring" anyone. At least no more than the U.S.A is "harboring" one of it's citizens. I'm a citizen of the U.S. I have never thought of my country as 'harboring" me... You see, the word 'harboring' implies that one is hiding or concealing a person from a legal process.... Hope had broken no laws. Hope had attacked no one. Hope wasn't being Harbored, she simply lived on Utopia.

THIRD - You say the X-Men weren't trying to help... Did you read any of those panels I posted? I actually put a lot of work into those and I had hoped that the points would be made.. but...

  • What were the Avengers going to do with Hope that the X-Men weren't already planning to do, OTHER than killing Hope? Were they going to "HIDE" her? They couldn't. HIding Hope from the Pheonix Force was an impossibility. Sure they hid Hope from the "Pheonix Five" but that could not have worked with the complete Pheonix Force. The Pheonix Force knew could locate Hope from all the way on the other side of the Galaxy... So, there was absolutely NO WAY to "HIDE HOPE FROM THE PHEONIX."
  • Where they going to KILL HOPE? Well, that wouldn't have worked either... I pointed out in the panels that WOLVERINE ONCE KILLED JEAN GREY WHILE SHE WAS IN POSSESSION OF THE PHEONIX FORCE AND SHE CAME RIGHT BACK TO LIFE.. They were trapped on a space station and drifting into the sun. Logan didn't want Jean to suffer anymore (as it was getting unbearably hot) so he killed her... and VOILA, she came back even more powerful than before and flew them back to earth..... So, killing Hope would only work if they killed her BEFORE the Pheonix Force affected her... and it was already far too late for that since she had been affected by the Pheonix Force before t he Avengers even came to Utopia...
  • So...WHAT were they going to do??? And whatever it is they were going to do, WHY couldn't the Avengers let the X-Men do that? Why couldn't the Avengers just HELP the X-Men?

You say the Avengers wanted to "buy time" to find a way to stop the Pheonix... Okay.. So, why did they need Hope in their custody to buy that time????

- Do the Avengers get to invade any country in this world, when they fell it is right to do so?

- Are the Avengers reduced to killing people they THINK might be dangerous?

- Is the ICON of liberty and justice REALLY the right person to invade other countries without a declaration of war?

#8 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (778 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: I'll respond in order

1: Then they would hand that person over once he told them what a threat that person may become should a giant cosmic entity reach the planet

2: ok they werent harboring her, i agree with that.

3: The xmen were not helping at all, they wanted to wait until the phoenix arrived, hope that once it controls hope, it wont destroy the planet. They rode on the wish that it MIGHT bring the rebirth of mutants, which they had no control over. and also i couldnt enlarge the pictures, my computer acts weird with pictures on this site

Lastly, none of the avengers BESIDES WOLVERINE planned to kill her. They were planning to get her somewhere she couldnt be reached so they could delay the phoenix until they found a solution. and when the planets safety is at stake, then you can believe that the icon of liberty will do what he has to do. and remember, the avengers WERE NOT going to kill her. the reason that they couldnt HELP the xmen is because the xmen were going to hand hope over to the phoenix, were you not paying attention to why this battle was started in the first place?

#9 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider fan1 said:

@Timandm: I'll respond in order

1: Then they would hand that person over once he told them what a threat that person may become should a giant cosmic entity reach the planet

2: ok they werent harboring her, i agree with that.

3: The xmen were not helping at all, they wanted to wait until the phoenix arrived, hope that once it controls hope, it wont destroy the planet. They rode on the wish that it MIGHT bring the rebirth of mutants, which they had no control over. and also i couldnt enlarge the pictures, my computer acts weird with pictures on this site

Lastly, none of the avengers BESIDES WOLVERINE planned to kill her. They were planning to get her somewhere she couldnt be reached so they could delay the phoenix until they found a solution. and when the planets safety is at stake, then you can believe that the icon of liberty will do what he has to do. and remember, the avengers WERE NOT going to kill her. the reason that they couldnt HELP the xmen is because the xmen were going to hand hope over to the phoenix, were you not paying attention to why this battle was started in the first place?

1; No, Japan would have gone to war with the U.S. One country does not invade and tell another what to do without consequence... They don't hand over their citizens "just because.'' If the Avengers felt they could "protect" that citizen, then they could do it in that citizen's country... They wouldn't have to kidnap the citizen.

3: Actually, Cap had Wolverine there and knew that Wolverine would kill her if he deemed necessary.. So, killing Hope was a backup plan.

Now, you say they were going to keep Hope somewhere she couldn't be reached by the Pheonix... WHERE EXACTLY would that be? Cyclops, with only a portion of the Pheonix Force, found Hope in Kun Lun... So, WHERE were the Avengers going to hide her???

The earth is very very small compared to the rest of the universe, and the Pheonix already knew Hope's Location. From a GAGILLION miles away the Pheonix knew where Hope was... So, where could the Avengers have hid her?

A MORE IMPORTANT QUESTION: What gave the Avengers the right to decide what would happen? Who voted them into power? Imagine the following scene:

BIG HERO 6 shows up suddenly on the shores of Utopia.

Hiro Tachiro: Scott Summers, the Pheonix Force is coming to earth. We 'believe' it is coming for Hope Summers.

Cyclops: and?

Hiro: She is in danger and is endangering the entire planet.

Cyclops: AND?

Hiro: Give her to us. We will place her into protective custordy!

Cyclops: No.

Hiro: You realize I wasn't asking?

So, now... seriously, Would Cyclops be required to turn Hope over to this 13 year old super hero just because?

If Captain America has the right to kidnap a citizen of another country then doesn't a super hero of any other country also have that right?

The X-Men obviously didn't want to destroy the earth... Not only is that where the X-Men live, it's where they keep all there stuff... Jean Grey was able to control the Pheonix until Master Mind messed with her mind. Rachel Summers was able to control the Pheonix Force until it was ripped from her. They had reason to believe that Hope would have been able to control it... And, they obviously would have tried to stop her, if she lost control...

#10 Edited by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

I love this parody so frigin much!

The actual commentary does overlook a few points like the destruction of Wakanda........Still some of the points are valid

#11 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

I love this parody so frigin much!

The actual commentary does overlook a few points like the destruction of Wakanda........Still some of the points are valid

Well, yeah, I didn't have time to address everything... But I'm curious what you're getting at about the destruction of Wakanda. You're obviously referring to Namor attacking Wakanda, yes?

#12 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (778 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm:

1: you right they would go to war, but with more countries than one BECAUSE no other country would let japan decide THE FATE OF THE PLANET! Thats vpretty much the situation now, they couldnt let the xmen be the people to DECIDE on that, especially when scott was going to hand her over.

2: no he didnt, he had wolverine there because he wanted to be sure he was on his side, no where did he ever say that he wanted to have wolverine kill her, he was even more mad when he found out he tried, and kicked him out of a plane

3: the phoenix wasnt omniscient, maybe omnipotent, but not that. he only found k'un lun after he was told, making a portal to it shouldnt be that hard, especially since he had HALF the PF in him when he arrived.

4: The phoenix's past hosts were all on earth, it doesnt take much to remember the last place they wee all at

I believe it was the UN who gave them the right to storm another country, of course that shouldnt mean much and I also believe that they dont have the right to do so BUT you have to ask yourself this question: what would you do if another country was holding a person that could destroy the world because an entity was seeking to possess her, but the country wouldnt give her up because they planned to give her to that entity hoping it may MIGHT spare the planet. and sure, jean did control it for some time, but a lot of other times she couldnt control it, AND it is kind of hard to leave it to chance that a child could control the phoenix

#13 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@BlackArmor said:

I love this parody so frigin much!

The actual commentary does overlook a few points like the destruction of Wakanda........Still some of the points are valid

Well, yeah, I didn't have time to address everything... But I'm curious what you're getting at about the destruction of Wakanda. You're obviously referring to Namor attacking Wakanda, yes?

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said but both before the Phoenix came The X-men and their plans have had their fair share of problems. World peace is cool and all but destroying a nation, making mutants bow before you, and summoning a torture chamber from the depths of limbo to use on your enemies is pretty messed up, and while training Hope for the Phoenix is a good precaution I don't feel like it should have been the main plan

#14 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

@Timandm said:

@BlackArmor said:

I love this parody so frigin much!

The actual commentary does overlook a few points like the destruction of Wakanda........Still some of the points are valid

Well, yeah, I didn't have time to address everything... But I'm curious what you're getting at about the destruction of Wakanda. You're obviously referring to Namor attacking Wakanda, yes?

Yeah, I agree with most of what you said but both before the Phoenix came The X-men and their plans have had their fair share of problems. World peace is cool and all but destroying a nation, making mutants bow before you, and summoning a torture chamber from the depths of limbo to use on your enemies is pretty messed up, and while training Hope for the Phoenix is a good precaution I don't feel like it should have been the main plan

Ahh. I gotcha... Actually, the attack on Wakanda, the FORCING the rest of the world to do what they say, torture in Limbo and all that..... I think most of us expected that. In fact, we already know that the X-Men and The Avengers are all going to make up and be not only friends again, but team mates... So, we knew the Pheonix Five was going to go bad. If you listen carefully, while reading the last issue of Avengers verses X-Men you can hear The Watcher saying, "Well DUUUUuuuuuuuuuhhhhhHHH."

If I had time, which I don't, I'd love to actually parody the whole event.

You know, thinking of the invasion on Wakanda.... How do you suppose things would have gone if the Avengers offered to HELP the X-Men instead of ordering them to give them Hope? IF Tony Stark hadn't split the Pheonix Force, it wouldn't have ended up into Scott (who is already a control freak), Emma Frost who (even though we love her) is a bit arrogant and has a dark side...or Colossus who is the freaking Juggernaut (an avatar of chaos and destruction!), and ILLYANA RASAPUTIN? The Juggernaut and his Queen of Demons sister??? How hard would you have to look to find WORSE hosts for the Pheonix Force?

Even after Stark split the Pheonix into the five worst hosts ever, wouldn't things STILL have gone better, if the Avengers wouldn't have kept attacking? They were actually making the earth better... So, why not wait until they actually turn evil before you physically attack them??? Sure, plan for the inevitable, but don't force it.

It reminds me of this time when I was about 9. My brothers and I were walking our German Sheppard. He was young and VERY strong... A small poodle ran out of its yard, and snapped at my dogs nose... Well, my dog bit the poodle.... One bite and he had the poodle in his mouth, and then he took off running as he was all excited about this pseudo fight... It took us a minute to tackle our dog and pry the poodle out of his mouth, but it was too late for the poodle; it was dead... So, what if that poodle hadn't snapped at my dog? What IF the Avengers constantly attacked the X-Men while they were still doing good?

#15 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: True, cooperation would have made this whole event about 2 issues long

#16 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlackArmor said:

@Timandm: True, cooperation would have made this whole event about 2 issues long

And we would never had the image of Scott Summers wearing red speedos burned into our brains for all times... Sigh...

#17 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider fan1 said:

@Timandm:

1: you right they would go to war, but with more countries than one BECAUSE no other country would let japan decide THE FATE OF THE PLANET! Thats vpretty much the situation now, they couldnt let the xmen be the people to DECIDE on that, especially when scott was going to hand her over.

2: no he didnt, he had wolverine there because he wanted to be sure he was on his side, no where did he ever say that he wanted to have wolverine kill her, he was even more mad when he found out he tried, and kicked him out of a plane

3: the phoenix wasnt omniscient, maybe omnipotent, but not that. he only found k'un lun after he was told, making a portal to it shouldnt be that hard, especially since he had HALF the PF in him when he arrived.

4: The phoenix's past hosts were all on earth, it doesnt take much to remember the last place they wee all at

I believe it was the UN who gave them the right to storm another country, of course that shouldnt mean much and I also believe that they dont have the right to do so BUT you have to ask yourself this question: what would you do if another country was holding a person that could destroy the world because an entity was seeking to possess her, but the country wouldnt give her up because they planned to give her to that entity hoping it may MIGHT spare the planet. and sure, jean did control it for some time, but a lot of other times she couldnt control it, AND it is kind of hard to leave it to chance that a child could control the phoenix

1: if Japan wouldn't have the right to determine the fate of the world, why would the Avengers have the right to decide the fate of the world? Why would "no other country let Japan decide the fate of the planet?" The Avengers can but Japan can't?

For the record, you ARE saying that Cyclops should not have had to turn Hope over to Big Hero 6 because they were from Japan, but he SHOULD have turned Hope over to Captain America.... Is that correct?

2: I'll have to go back and read the different issues... Somewhere there's a conversation where Cap is saying something to the effect of Killing Hope is a last option. But I'll try to find it.

3: No, the pheonix force isn't omniscient... But, (as I said before) knew of Hope's location even on the other side of the universe... There was no way Hope could have been hidden from the full power of the Pheonix Force. And if Kun Lun was that great a hiding place, wouldn't Limbo also have been a great hiding place? Somewhere and X-Man could have taken Hope?

4: I don't get your point here? The pheonix force hosts were all on earth... and so??? btw, I think you mean they were FROM earth... But not all of the Pheonix hosts have been from Earth. There have been many hosts from many different planets. The Pheonix doesn't always come to earth to find a host... In this case, It chose Hope and sensed where she was... It didn't just wake up and decide to go to earth to find a Host... In this case, the Host happened to be on earth.

#18 Posted by BlackArmor (6134 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@BlackArmor said:

@Timandm: True, cooperation would have made this whole event about 2 issues long

And we would never had the image of Scott Summers wearing red speedos burned into our brains for all times... Sigh...

Yeah out of the many horrors this event has wrought that may very well be the worst thing to come out of it

#19 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (778 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm:

1. the difference between letting the avengers decide and letting the xmen decide was this: the other countries were behind them 100 percent to do so, knowing full well that the xmen were going to just hand over hope to the phoenix force.

the whole hero 6 thing i didnt really understand, but i guess i get it. if the hero 6 were backed by the other countries, the UN and everyone, then yes I suppose they could have, but Avengers are earths mightiest heroes, not the hero 6.

i dont remember it, but if he did say it, then he has a good reason. the phoenix would have to have already possessed the host to be able to ressurect them, i mean if it could well then whatever, thats a writers thing.

i dont get where your going with the Limbo hiding place, if the xmen were going to take her there they would have, but instead they were going to hand over. I feel like you think that the xmen were trying to keep her from it, but it was the opposite

before anything else I want you to give me a good reason the xmen were truly justified in keeping hope and handing her over to the PF.Sure, the avengers just jumped the gun and didnt ask nicely for hope, but the phoenix was on its way and fast, democracy wasnt going to work if scott was so set on letting the phoenix take her. the war was proof of that.

#20 Posted by JonSmith (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

Aw... Man... Why'd you have to suggest they cooperate Timandm? Now my brain came up automatically with a scenario where the big brains figure out a way to weaken the Phoenix so it can't find Hope or obliterate everyone with a thought, so in response it manifests an army of the strongest warriors from the planets it's destroyed, which the teamed up Avengers and X-Men have to fight through in an all out war while the big brains desperately try to figure out a way to drive it away. All while Hope is trying to distract the Phoenix Force without letting it possess her, with her Lights trying to help as best they can. The Phoenix Army waging war against every front on Earth, causing natural disasters, every hero on Earth trying to hold against the Phoenix Force in a desperate race against time.

Why did you have to cause my brain to think of this, Timandm? Why?

#21 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider fan1 said:

@Timandm:

1. the difference between letting the avengers decide and letting the xmen decide was this: the other countries were behind them 100 percent to do so, knowing full well that the xmen were going to just hand over hope to the phoenix force.

the whole hero 6 thing i didnt really understand, but i guess i get it. if the hero 6 were backed by the other countries, the UN and everyone, then yes I suppose they could have, but Avengers are earths mightiest heroes, not the hero 6.

i dont remember it, but if he did say it, then he has a good reason. the phoenix would have to have already possessed the host to be able to ressurect them, i mean if it could well then whatever, thats a writers thing.

i dont get where your going with the Limbo hiding place, if the xmen were going to take her there they would have, but instead they were going to hand over. I feel like you think that the xmen were trying to keep her from it, but it was the opposite

before anything else I want you to give me a good reason the xmen were truly justified in keeping hope and handing her over to the PF.Sure, the avengers just jumped the gun and didnt ask nicely for hope, but the phoenix was on its way and fast, democracy wasnt going to work if scott was so set on letting the phoenix take her. the war was proof of that.

1: No, other countries were not consulted... The Avengers spoke with members of the U.S. government. And still, War had not been declared by congress, so the Avengers still had no right to attack...

now, since the other countries were NOT consulted, would you still say that "Big Hero 6" would not have the right to try and take Hope?

The whole "Avengers are Earth's Mightiest Heroes" is an opinion/motto... But it is not a legal status. It doesn't grant the Avengers special status. The Avengers had the same rights and powers that Big Hero 6 would have had....

So, here's Logan killing Jean and her coming back to life. As you read this, think about how effective Killing Hope would be...

Here we see that Jean dies.. and t then comes back so powerful that she collects stray material and builds a ship for Logan...

Sooo.. The Avengers back up plan is to kill Hope... Hmmmm... Yeah, that'll be as effective as it was before... Sure it will.

The Limbo as a hiding place... My point was this... You said that the Avengers wanted to take Hope so they could buy time to find a way to stop the Pheonix. Well, HIDING Hope was their big plan... The best they came up with was Kun Lun and they needed help with that.... So, why kidnap Hope against her will (and it was against her will at the time) to hide her, when the X-Men can already hide Hope in another dimension?

Why were the X-Men Justified in Keeping Hope?

Well, I'm American... If the Japanese government sent a special Op team to the U.S. to capture me when I had broken no laws of any sort... Would the U.S. government be "JUSTIFIED" in letting me stay here in the U.S. where I am a citizen? Hope wanted to stay in Utopia. It was her legal right. She had broken no laws. You cannot arrest or kill people for what they MIGHT do... The X-Men had reason to believe Hope could contain the Pheonix power... Look at a list of their members who had the Pheonix Power before and those members did NOT destroy the earth:

Jean Grey - Was a host to pheonix several times and the earth remained in tact.

Rachel Summers - Was a host of the Pheonix for a very long time and not once was the earth threatened. In fact, she SAVED the earth.

Emma Frost - For a short time, Emma frost had the Pheonix force in her.

The Cuckoos - The girls are clones of Emma, and at one point in time also had the Pheonix force in them...

Note, that the earth was never destroyed in any of these cases. So, was Cyclops "JUSTIFIED" in not allowing a group of super heroes from another country, take Hope against her will when she had not broken a single law? Yes. Absolutely.

By your reasoning, Any time any country feels threatened by someone in another country, they have the right to invade and kidnap that person.... That being the case, if the US felt threatened by Dr. Doom, it could invade Latveria and take Doom hostage. Shouldn't they at least declare war before they do so?

There is a serious flaw in your argument... You tell me that I should show why the X-Men were Justified.... When it comes to matters of law and legal rights, innocent people do not have to Justify their legal actions.... Hope was born on earth and she is a human being, therefore she has the right to live on the planet Earth. Hope was invited to live on Utopia and she decided to live there and become a citizen of Utopia, and so she has a right to live in Utopia. She has never attacked the United States. She does not have to "justify" wanting to live in Utopia, and she does not have to Justify wanting to stay home.

#22 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@JonSmith said:

Aw... Man... Why'd you have to suggest they cooperate Timandm? Now my brain came up automatically with a scenario where the big brains figure out a way to weaken the Phoenix so it can't find Hope or obliterate everyone with a thought, so in response it manifests an army of the strongest warriors from the planets it's destroyed, which the teamed up Avengers and X-Men have to fight through in an all out war while the big brains desperately try to figure out a way to drive it away. All while Hope is trying to distract the Phoenix Force without letting it possess her, with her Lights trying to help as best they can. The Phoenix Army waging war against every front on Earth, causing natural disasters, every hero on Earth trying to hold against the Phoenix Force in a desperate race against time.

Why did you have to cause my brain to think of this, Timandm? Why?

I...I...I'm so sorry.... What have I DONE?

Of course, now that you've spelled it out like that, you know Joe Quesada has a called a meeting and is using your storyline for the main theme to the NEXT Marvel event.....

#23 Posted by ghostrider fan1 (778 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: ugh this arguement is going nowhere, the whole time your arguing in the legal place, not really debating the TRUE problem here. the true problem wasnt that they invaded another country. yes they did it, oh well the real point is that the avengers had to do something, and they knew full well the xmen werent going to try and hide her, instead they were going to give her to it freely. the avengers acted as heroes should, if the hero 6 showed up, then they'd definitely be on the avengers side in this. still not sure on that point, but whatever. Are you trying to tell me that the xmen were right? thats what i want to know. you were right on the part of the invading of a country, but that really wasnt the issue that was at hand. the real issue was that a giant cosmic bird was headed for earth, and the avengers were doing everything in their power to stop it, not wasting time on the technicalities of starting a "war" when it was an act now move they were making. other than that im kinda done with this arguement. your looking at it from a rights and liberty point, which is fine, but you have to see the bigger picture. of course its much more complicated than that, but you know what i mean

#24 Posted by SoA (4683 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm: this little strip much much much better then AvX ,after the phoenix 5 i dropped the book and ive been told it just gets crappier and crappier

#25 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostrider fan1: The Avengers had no idea what the X-Men were going to do... Go back and read AvX

1. Not ONCE did the Avengers ASK exactly what the X-Men were going to do... They just showed up illegally and demanded the country of Utopia give up one of its citizens...

2: One of my main points was that, what the Avengers did was illegal... You have acknowledged that as well...

3: The Avengers COULD NOT HIDE HOPE... IT COULD NOT BE DONE... SO taking her to hide her was pointless.

You are suggesting that human rights can be trampled on anytime Captain America feels like trampling on Human rights. I disagree.

You are suggesting that Captain America and the Avengers can kill someone for something they MIGHT DO. I disagree. I believe that would be morally wrong.

You believe Captain America and the Avengers have authority over citizens of every other nation on the planet. I do not. Clearly, we just disagree on this... But notice, from my perspective, I don't have the right to attack you and force you to believe what I believe. from my perspective, people are constrained to civil behavior by law.... Once we believe we are above the law, and that we are above others and can do to others anything we want, any time we want, then we're nothing but.... well.. Animals. You disagree. that's that.

#26 Posted by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Also the fact X-sanction makes it clear, hiding Hope even if it could be done successfully just results in a pissed off Phoenix that destroys the Earth anyways, something Scott KNEW already since Cable, his son, one of the people he trusts more then anyone in the world told him so. Sure Scott was stupid in that he never told the Avengers what Cable told him, but I think there is a good chance the Avenger's wouldn't have believed him even if he had, Cable's last meeting with the Avengers didn't exactly do alot to inspire confidence.

#27 Posted by Mr Marvel82 (117 posts) - - Show Bio

At last, Avengers vs X-men is becoming a fine Jean Grey story!

#28 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@imperial90 said:

Also the fact X-sanction makes it clear, hiding Hope even if it could be done successfully just results in a pissed off Phoenix that destroys the Earth anyways, something Scott KNEW already since Cable, his son, one of the people he trusts more then anyone in the world told him so. Sure Scott was stupid in that he never told the Avengers what Cable told him, but I think there is a good chance the Avenger's wouldn't have believed him even if he had, Cable's last meeting with the Avengers didn't exactly do alot to inspire confidence.

Yeah, that whole "I have to kill the Avengers" type of attitude Cable had at their last meeting didn't go over too well did it? LOL! Yes, it would have helped if Scott had told the Avengers what Cable said, but it is obvious why he didn't... Because then there would have been much less chance of a war between the Avengers and the X-Men.... All of these Marvel events have one very big flaw in common; THE SUPER HEROES MUST KEEP IMPORTANT INFORMATION SECRET, AND THEY MUST NOT TRY TO TALK THINGS OUT LIKE REASONABLE PEOPLE... Oh, and they must always fight before talking just because.

@Mr Marvel82 said:

At last, Avengers vs X-men is becoming a fine Jean Grey story!

I'm expecting her to show up any time now...

#29 Posted by Mr Marvel82 (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@Mr Marvel82 said:

At last, Avengers vs X-men is becoming a fine Jean Grey story!

I'm expecting her to show up any time now...

I was too, but now I'm not entirely sure she will make an appearance. And if she doesn't the book has done her justice.

It showed how special her bond with the Phoenix was. (As compared with the temporary bonding of the Phoenix 5.)

- She used the PF to save the GALAXY

-- They used the PF to solve hunger and energy shortages on earth.

- She only turned Dark Phoenix after being seduced into darkness by the Hellfire Club

-- Each of the Phoenix Five were corrupted by merely weilding the power for a short time.

It also resolved her marriage issues. ( I know a lot of her fans wanted her to come back and fight with Emma. But now she doesn't need to.)

- She died with a husband who, for all intents and purposes, didn't understand her and cheated on her.

--Now Scott knows what it feels like to be the Phoenix. And how it feels to be slept around on. And Emma knows what it feels like to be betrayed by Scott.

#30 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

The Avengers are the real villains here.

#31 Posted by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82: To be fair, Scott only turned dark phoenix after almost everyone he ever considered a friend and confidant turned against him when he had yet to actually do anything evil, just you know, end war, poverty and hunger, just in case he turned evil. Jean had a far more welcoming environment in which to spread her phoenix wings..... The fact all the other Phoenix's were loosing it doesn't change the fact that so far, nothing of the sort had been shown to have been happening to Scott, they just seemed to blame him for all the shit the other phoenix's were doing.

#32 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

The Avengers are the real villains here.

COMPLETELY AGREE.

@Mr Marvel82: I'm having the horrible suspicion that we're about to find out that Hope Summers is actually... JEAN GREY REINCARNATED by the Phoenix Force....

@imperial90 said:

@Mr Marvel82: To be fair, Scott only turned dark phoenix after almost everyone he ever considered a friend and confidant turned against him when he had yet to actually do anything evil, just you know, end war, poverty and hunger, just in case he turned evil. Jean had a far more welcoming environment in which to spread her phoenix wings..... The fact all the other Phoenix's were loosing it doesn't change the fact that so far, nothing of the sort had been shown to have been happening to Scott, they just seemed to blame him for all the shit the other phoenix's were doing.

Like Reed Richards said to Captain America, "You keep poking him with a stick...."

Did you notice Captain America saying, "You're under arrest for crimes against humanity..." I'm thinking, "What crimes?" Namor attacked Wakanda, not Scott... Scott DID attack Kung Fu City but that's not on the planet earth and he can neither be arrested nor tried for that.... On earth, as far as I've seen, Scott has only attacked those who attacked him. We've seen that he's provided free, clean energy to the world. Cleaned up pollution... Stopped wars... etc... and Cap is arresting him????? FOR WHAT?

#33 Posted by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup, I honestly have no idea what the people at marvel are smoking for any of what the Avengers have done to make any sense. If the Avengers treated the Hulk the same way every time he saved the day I'm pretty sure he would have broken the earth in two a long time ago.....

#34 Posted by deadpoolspidey877 (113 posts) - - Show Bio

i think the avengers were right because they had reason to believe the phoenix couldn't be tamed so they had to destroy IT before it destroyed THEM

#35 Posted by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm pretty sure they've stated numerous times, you may as well try to destroy the law of gravity as destroy the Phoenix, it is a literal force of nature along side beings like Galactus, Death and Eternity, VERY BAD things happen when you remove beings integral to the cosmic balance, for example, remove Death and you will end up with the cancer-verse, remove Galactus and you get Abraxas, shit hits the fan every time someone has the bright idea to destroy these sort of beings. And the Avengers KNOW this already....

Even ignoring that, the Avengers are ignorant, the Phoenix destroyed all those worlds on the way to earth because it was unimportant to it, earth on the other hand it was coming to in order to reset the fuck up Wanda left the mutant world with back in 2005 (we know this for fact from Uncanny X-men), it was doing its job, something the X-men knew and the Avengers were calling them nut jobs over cause they were listening to wolverine who has an obvious grudge on Scott. The Avengers came in acting like bosses on a subject they knew nothing about, buggered up the phoenix, and then started bemoaning woe is me when the P5 got tired of the Avengers constantly poking them with a stick even before the P5 had done anything wrong, this was when they had done nothing but end war, give earth free renewable energy and feed earths population.... the Dark Phoenix sides only came out after all the entirely uncalled for poking.

The Avengers KNOW for a fact that the Hulk occasionally looses control, they KNOW for a fact that should the Hulk get angry enough he could break the world in two with his fists. Do they deal with that problem by continuously going out of the way to piss off the Hulk while he's saving people? No they leave him alone because they know doing otherwise WILL bring out world breaker hulk. Dark Phoenix is exactly the same, Dark Phoenix is not the result of a natural decline into madness, Dark Phoenix has always been a result of being pushed to madness, having all most all your former friends and comrades turn on you when you've yet to do anything wrong is exactly the sort of thing that tends to royally piss people off.

Just for some additional hypocrisy Captain America once gave Spiderman shit during the Secret War for not trusting the hulk due to how powerful he is and his occasional bouts of rage induced insanity, yet here, in basically the same situation, he's leading the fricking charge on something he once gave spiderman shit for doing.....

Legion as of Age of X we know has such immense reality warping powers that he once took the universe and put into a box that fit into the palm of his hand, he did this subconsciously, an action of one of his alternate personalities, the number of which he has is uncountable. He once looked at an army of Elder gods, waved his hand and made them not exist. Legion is one of the most powerful beings in the marvel-verse, he's also insane half the time. How did the X-men choose to deal with this? Did they just kill him due to the immense threat he poses and the blindingly obvious issues of mental instability? No. Do they keep him in a dreamless sleep locked away so as to make sure he can't make the universe not exist by waving his hand? No, instead they tried to repair his fractured psyche and do as much as they can to help him control his abilities and make him feel welcome among the X-men. The exact same argument holds for the Scarlet Witch, just with the Avenger's instead of the X-men, Wanda chose to keep herself separated from the Avengers.

For all these reasons and more this entire event has just been stupid, the writers have just made the Avengers into a bunch of hypocritical illogical loons for this event, who's name calling isn't even remotely accurate (like when Iron Fist compared Scott to Mussolini) and they are still going to make them win it. God I can't wait till this horribly done event is over and done with......

#36 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@imperial90: Silly billy Marvel doesn't give two sh--s about continuity.

#37 Posted by Mr Marvel82 (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@Timandm said:

@Mr Marvel82: I'm having the horrible suspicion that we're about to find out that Hope Summers is actually... JEAN GREY REINCARNATED by the Phoenix Force.

I think that was the original plan when Hope was first introduced during Messiah Complex. But they seem to have changed her origins to incorporate the Kun Lun mythology.

@imperial90 said:

@Mr Marvel82: To be fair, Scott only turned dark phoenix after almost everyone he ever considered a friend and confidant turned against him when he had yet to actually do anything evil, just you know, end war, poverty and hunger, just in case he turned evil. Jean had a far more welcoming environment in which to spread her phoenix wings..... The fact all the other Phoenix's were loosing it doesn't change the fact that so far, nothing of the sort had been shown to have been happening to Scott, they just seemed to blame him for all the shit the other phoenix's were doing.

Hmm. I'm not sure. Pre-Phoenix, Scott was already displaying questionable behavior... I think the Phoenix amplified his rigidity and ego.

It's open to debate whether or not he was innocent prior to going Dark Phoenix. He was afterall not just leader of the X-men, but a leader of a nation of mutants. As such, he could be held responsible for the actions of his officers. (The rest of the Phoenix 5) Also, his first act as a Phoenix holder was to crash a UN forum and impose his will on all the nations represented. Even though his words promised peace, the way he went about it was not the most peaceful.

His friends only turned against him after seeing how he was influenced by the Phoenix, and after trying to make him think about the consequences of his actions. (I'm references conversations he had with Storm, Xavier, and Magneto.)

I guess Jean did have a slightly more welcoming environment to test her limits as Phoenix. But even then many of the X-men (most notably, Scott) feared what she might be becoming.

#38 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr Marvel82 said:

@Timandm said:

@Mr Marvel82: I'm having the horrible suspicion that we're about to find out that Hope Summers is actually... JEAN GREY REINCARNATED by the Phoenix Force.

I think that was the original plan when Hope was first introduced during Messiah Complex. But they seem to have changed her origins to incorporate the Kun Lun mythology.

@imperial90 said:

@Mr Marvel82: To be fair, Scott only turned dark phoenix after almost everyone he ever considered a friend and confidant turned against him when he had yet to actually do anything evil, just you know, end war, poverty and hunger, just in case he turned evil. Jean had a far more welcoming environment in which to spread her phoenix wings..... The fact all the other Phoenix's were loosing it doesn't change the fact that so far, nothing of the sort had been shown to have been happening to Scott, they just seemed to blame him for all the shit the other phoenix's were doing.

Hmm. I'm not sure. Pre-Phoenix, Scott was already displaying questionable behavior... I think the Phoenix amplified his rigidity and ego.

It's open to debate whether or not he was innocent prior to going Dark Phoenix. He was afterall not just leader of the X-men, but a leader of a nation of mutants. As such, he could be held responsible for the actions of his officers. (The rest of the Phoenix 5) Also, his first act as a Phoenix holder was to crash a UN forum and impose his will on all the nations represented. Even though his words promised peace, the way he went about it was not the most peaceful.

His friends only turned against him after seeing how he was influenced by the Phoenix, and after trying to make him think about the consequences of his actions. (I'm references conversations he had with Storm, Xavier, and Magneto.)

I guess Jean did have a slightly more welcoming environment to test her limits as Phoenix. But even then many of the X-men (most notably, Scott) feared what she might be becoming.

He should've brought a helicarrier full of Avengers to their doorstep!

#39 Edited by imperial90 (53 posts) - - Show Bio

The questionable behavior pre-phoenix is highly debatable, I see it more like he's actually acting like the leader of nation, he forces no one to stand by his side, even gave Wolverine a fricking Blackbird as a goodbye present after the guy tried to blow him up and stab him..... Scott's in a way no longer a hero, he's a leader, and leaders don't have the luxury of a high code of ethics when a significant portion of the world despises your very existence even after your population got gutted, and are still looking for a way to kill off or exploit what few of you are left. In a way Utopia under Scott is acting a lot like Israel in its early years, especially when he still had X-Force running.

I have yet to see what bad consequences there have been for Scott's actions (before issue 11 obviously), before this all I have seen him do is reign in the other phoenixes, make the world a better place, and lay a massive beat down on whoever was stupid enough to attack him. I keep hearing people saying this stuff to him, and yet they have shown no one suffering other then the Avengers, and they brought that on themselves. And Wakanda of course, but thats Namor's and Emma's fault, not Scotts, yet everyone blames him for it.... I considered Xaviers lecture to Scott after the Wakanda incident to be highly inappropriate, Scott was in no way responsible for it, he even told Namor not to be rash, yet everyone is pointing the finger at him and seem to have forgotten about Namor.... Scott is the only reason Namor, Magik and Emma didnt turn all the Avengers into bbq in every conflict they took part in without the Scarlet Witch, is that he ordered them all to hold back as we can see from the Hawkeye incident, the one Avenger they did almost accidentally kill they completely healed.....

#40 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@imperial90: he forces no one to stand by his side, even gave Wolverine a fricking Blackbird as a goodbye present after the guy tried to blow him up and stab him.....

.... Why aren't more people rooting for this guy?

#41 Posted by TheCannon (17892 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO

#42 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@imperial90: I absolutely agree with you. In fact, I would go further and say that Scott's "pre-phoenix" behavior wasn't questionable at all... He broke no laws. He instigated no fights... I'm not a big cyclops fan, and even I can't see anything wrong with how he handled things before the pheonix... And if the Avengers hadn't kept attacking him and the X-Men, it's possible that things could have gone much better...

#43 Posted by Timandm (3374 posts) - - Show Bio

@imperial90: Oh hey... I think your last comment was actually intended for Mr. Marvel82. Take a look back.

#44 Posted by Mr Marvel82 (117 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

He should've brought a helicarrier full of Avengers to their doorstep!

Meh. I don't care much for the debate over whose the bigger douche, Cap vs Cyc.

#45 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain American and the avengers are assholes

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