What if Avenger Arena isn't real?

#1 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

What if Murderworld is actually a virtual world and some characters know this, planted in Murderworld by Arcade in order to agitate situations in case everyone begin working together.

Personal Question - Anyone know how many issues this will actually run for, I know it will go up to 6, but I am sure there are more issues after that, I just hope this not a year long run.

#2 Edited by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

That would actually make a lot of sense.

Especially taking into consideration all of Arcade's new abilities that came out of nowhere.

#3 Posted by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

@animehunter said:

If they kill X-23, I'm going to be really REALLY mad

BUT

Something just occurred to me, what if this is all happening in a virtual world.

For some reason I believe that might end up becoming true-- that this was all just a simulation secretly done by the avengers, hence the title: Avengers Arena.

Thought I'd add x_29s comment to the topic. Even though he placed it on the review page, I find it very relevant.

#4 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

The more I think about it the more it makes sense for a few reasons.

1)It's called Avengers Arena, not Murder World. The kids are clearly the focus of this title, if it was just suppose to be about Arcade offing people they would have titled it something like Murder World

2) The abilities displayed by Arcade are far beyond anything he's ever been capable of. Where did these unexplained new powers come from? How can he go from being completely non powered to something that looks an awful lot like molecule control....unless it's not real.

3) Everyone on the island is the right age to be an Avengers recruit. If all Arcade wanted to do was boost his rep would he really have just stuck teen heroes on the island? Seems to me that offing a more established and experience hero would do a lot more for someone's rep than killing an inexperienced teen.

4) As of the first issue there seems to be no effort by the Avengers to find these kids. Surely someone would have noticed that many teen heroes disappearing so if we don't see someone trying to find them over the next few issues that's going to be extremely fishy.

#5 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

If that's the case then it might not be as bad as it seems. Then again what would be the point of this book? Either interesting characters are killed off for shock value or it was just a sick and meaningless joke...

I really hope there's more to it than just Marvel cashing in on Battle Royale/The Hunger Games but it wouldn't be the first time that Marvel is screwing over their fans.

#6 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio

@hectorsquall said:

If that's the case then it might not be as bad as it seems. Then again what would be the point of this book? Either interesting characters are killed off for shock value or it was just a sick and meaningless joke...

I really hope there's more to it than just Marvel cashing in on Battle Royale/The Hunger Games but it wouldn't be the first time that Marvel is screwing over their fans.

If it really is a simulation, and since the title is Avengers Arena, I have to think it's a training tool used by the Avengers to evaluate recruits.

#7 Posted by hectorsquall (1137 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick said:

@hectorsquall said:

If that's the case then it might not be as bad as it seems. Then again what would be the point of this book? Either interesting characters are killed off for shock value or it was just a sick and meaningless joke...

I really hope there's more to it than just Marvel cashing in on Battle Royale/The Hunger Games but it wouldn't be the first time that Marvel is screwing over their fans.

If it really is a simulation, and since the title is Avengers Arena, I have to think it's a training tool used by the Avengers to evaluate recruits.

Seems doubtful. Why would the Avengers traumatize these random teens like that? Making them fight to the death and see their loved ones/friends seemingly die is kinda harsh and out of character even for Earth's Shittiest Heroes. And the title is probably just to cash in on the Avengers' name (wouldn't be the first time).

This simulation theory might be plausible if we assume that Arcade somehow managed to capture these young heroes and use them as guinea pigs for his new Murderworld. After all he sucks big time when it comes to killing superheroes so testing his new toys on unprepared kids makes sense.

Hopeless sounds like he wants Arcade to be a bigger threat in the Marvel Universe so the kids will probably die for real anyway. Any other way out would be just a lame cop-out making this whole series even more pointless and better left forgotten, that would be the ideal conclusion and tarnish Hopeless' name for years to come!

#9 Posted by Shamelesslysupportinaznballers (553 posts) - - Show Bio

Wait you mean it's possible that none of these kids would actually die and it's somehow all a cheap trick from Marvel to get us to pay any form of attention to this book?

Nah...I don't think marvel would do that at all.

#10 Posted by joshmightbe (24599 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel isn't that clever any more (And yes this would be the first time in 30 years that the "It was all a dream" trope could be considered more clever than whatever they're planning)

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#11 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4521 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think it's real because the heroes in 616 would have noticed that the kids are missing!

#12 Posted by Mercy_ (92445 posts) - - Show Bio

Hopefully.

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#13 Posted by ComicMan24 (147042 posts) - - Show Bio

It is an interesting idea. And many here would love for it to actually be the case.

#14 Posted by Loki9876 (2993 posts) - - Show Bio

I think their is something else going on but not organised by the avengers themselves cause that would be cruel

#15 Posted by Med (291 posts) - - Show Bio

i was just thinking that (i'm in the middle of issue 2). if it is all a simulation then i hope something goes terribly wrong and they wind up in some real danger.

#16 Posted by CrimsonCake (2668 posts) - - Show Bio

This kind of reminds me of that episode of Young Justice where the telepathic training simulation goes wrong and they all have to witness their Team mates die.

#17 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4521 posts) - - Show Bio

@CrimsonCake said:

This kind of reminds me of that episode of Young Justice where the telepathic training simulation goes wrong and they all have to witness their Team mates die.

exactly!

#18 Posted by BlueArrow (256 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick said:

The more I think about it the more it makes sense for a few reasons.

1)It's called Avengers Arena, not Murder World. The kids are clearly the focus of this title, if it was just suppose to be about Arcade offing people they would have titled it something like Murder World

2) The abilities displayed by Arcade are far beyond anything he's ever been capable of. Where did these unexplained new powers come from? How can he go from being completely non powered to something that looks an awful lot like molecule control....unless it's not real.

3) Everyone on the island is the right age to be an Avengers recruit. If all Arcade wanted to do was boost his rep would he really have just stuck teen heroes on the island? Seems to me that offing a more established and experience hero would do a lot more for someone's rep than killing an inexperienced teen.

4) As of the first issue there seems to be no effort by the Avengers to find these kids. Surely someone would have noticed that many teen heroes disappearing so if we don't see someone trying to find them over the next few issues that's going to be extremely fishy.

Adding to what you said: what school isn't involved? Wolverine's school. Which I recall he clearly says multiple times that he wants it to be about teaching and not fighting and seperate from the avengers and rest of the X-men, so it makes sense he would not sign off on this. Ergo, none of his kids would be involved.

#19 Posted by Kiddevil (7488 posts) - - Show Bio

If they kill off the runaways I'll lose every ounce of respect I had left for marvel.

#20 Posted by crimsonspider89 (817 posts) - - Show Bio

They left the tease it could be VR so in case the sales are too low, they can easily retcon anything that happens in the book. Either sales are worse than Academy and canned, or better and continued.

#21 Posted by wimble23 (168 posts) - - Show Bio

They have said this is an ongoing and not a miniseries so that gave me the impression that it is a simulation. Plus as been said before it is only Avenger Academy kids plus a few others and no one from Wolverine's school. Granted that point was addressed by Arcade in the first issue.

#22 Posted by SoA (4683 posts) - - Show Bio

a more sophisticated version of that wolverine/gambit mini ? okay im interested

#23 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we can rule out the Avengers, having anything to do with Avengers Arena

As you can see here, Cammi is being interrogated by Abigail Brand, leader of S.W.O.R.D, and before she finished what she wanted to say, she disappears. Somehow I doubt the Avengers would kidnap Cammi to conduct a test, let alone kidnap her from S.W.O.R.D and especially Abigail Brand, not if they want to keep a good relationship with her, at least as good a relationship that they can have.

What this also means is that S.W.O.R.D, and by association Abigail Brand, will be looking for her and if and when they find her, they will indirectly find the others.

#24 Posted by akbogert (3192 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's funny how many people -- whether you think it's VR or not -- keep harking on the implausibility of outsiders failing to find the kids in time. My issue goes even farther back to how they could have gotten kidnapped in the first place; the fact that that's yet to be resolved renders the question of how the people under whose noses these kids were stolen from could fail to track them back down seem almost trivial.

I'd also dismiss the idea of it being run by the Avengers, as they'd likely want the kid least likely to ice his/her teammates for self-preservation purposes, and that seems to have already been established. Further trauma would do nothing to produce a good Avenger, but would do much to harm the psyche of the kids.

It seems the best arguments for simulation are

A. Not plot-based: either wishful thinking that our favorite characters aren't really going to die, or the noteworthy possibility that Marvel is intentionally leaving an escape contingency in case of excessive backlash.

B. Still wishful (but less cynical) thinking that the kids are meant to survive and have to grapple with the consequences of their actions (though this still leaves plenty of questions).

The best arguments against it being simulation:

A. The people who currently like the book would call that a major cop-out.

B. It's almost too obvious, given the whole "arcade" thing.

C. That would undermine the only obvious purpose of this series (in the greater Marvel contingency) thus far (aside from profit), which is to clean house of extraneous and (mainline) unpopular heroes. But that harkens back to the simulation argument, I suppose: the possibility, however unlikely, that Marvel actually is going to make these events matter, whether the characters die or don't.

Personally? I'd rather the series end before we find out. Meanwhile, I honestly don't know.

#25 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

If you haven't read Avengers Arena #5 STOP or carry on at own risk

I have a feeling we'll be getting closer to the answer on whether or not Avengers Arena is real. For me a few clues came up that seem to suggest the is could be a simulation of sorts.

The first was with Avengers Arena #1 we Arcade demonstrated his powers, so unless he got in an accident or was imbued with these abilities, the only way I could see him having these power is within a simulation.

The second was in Avengers Arena #4 with Nico stating that she is unable to escape or attack Arcade using magic. How come Arcade is able to prevent her to do this and why those specifically, if my understanding of how magic is correct (I am not saying I do) it's unpredictable and to be able to specific what magic to hinder would be very difficult. To me this is another reason why I am beginning to think it's a simulation.

I'll say it again if you haven't read issue #5 you go on at own risk

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.

The third is in Avengers Arena #5, how is Arcade able to create earthquakes, tsunamis and avalanches at the sector each group is in, especially as each specific to different parts of Murder World.

The Fourth is that Arcade seemed to be hooked up to a machine, could this be the Virtual system he is using to create Murder World and control it.

The fifth are the statements made by Anachronism & Bloodstone, where Anachronism make a comment that they could be hooked up to something but got interrupted by Bloodstone before he could finish.

In short, if you add up all these clues, it seems to point in the direction of this being a simulation.

#26 Posted by The Stegman (23009 posts) - - Show Bio
@animehunter said:

If you haven't read Avengers Arena #5 STOP or carry on at own risk

I guessed it was a virtual reality after issue 1, for the exact reason you said in your first point.
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#27 Posted by akbogert (3192 posts) - - Show Bio

@animehunter: Regarding your last point, though, wouldn't a Matrix-style thing (as is mentioned on-panel) still make the deaths actual deaths?

Guess it depends on how the system operates.

#28 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: you're right, It would depend on the system he might use.

for example: there was an episode of Star Trek Voyager (The Thaw), where they came across a group of aliens in suspended animation and who were placed in a virtual environment in order to keep there minds from going insane, but something went wrong, the program took over and begins to feed on their fear and from time to time would decapitate people in the virtual world, as a result they got such a shock from having their heads cut off, that they would have a heart attack and die.

But I doubt he'd have a system like that.

  1. He would have to replace the dead players, which could expose him and what he is doing to groups like The Avengers, S.H.I.E.L.D & S.W.O.R.D
  2. He would get more pleasure if he were to have the current players repeat the process indefinitely i.e. when everyone is killed, he simply resets and start the whole thing again, until they became soo desensitised to killing, that he releases them in that state of mind. In short, sending out broken teens who will very easily kill without any feelings or remorse.
#29 Posted by akbogert (3192 posts) - - Show Bio

@animehunter: Well as I've said before, I think the very suggestion that those groups don't know the kids are missing is straight-up idiocy. There is absolutely no way I can accept that they've neither noticed nor care. So no matter what sort of system (or even if it's real) point 1 there doesn't change anything for me. As for 2... let's get meta here for a moment. Would Marvel approve that? Would anyone approve that? They'd absolutely destroy the characters. Most of them already come from very troubled backgrounds. Would people who like this book like that?

#30 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: Believe me, I understand where you're coming. Even I think it's idiotic that these groups don't know the kids are missing, especially with how Cammi was kidnapped. It even puts to rest the theory that the Avengers, having anything to do with this as in they have nothing to do with this.

As you can see here, Cammi was being interrogated by Abigail Brand, leader of S.W.O.R.D, and before she finished what she wanted to say, she disappears. Somehow I doubt the Avengers would kidnap Cammi to conduct a test, let alone kidnap her from S.W.O.R.D and especially Abigail Brand, not if they want to keep a good relationship with her, at least as good a relationship that they can have.

What this also means is that S.W.O.R.D, and by association Abigail Brand & S.H.I.E.L.D, will be looking for her and if and when they find her, they will indirectly find the others.

#31 Posted by akbogert (3192 posts) - - Show Bio

@animehunter: Honestly, that's my number one issue at the moment. Like, why aren't we seeing other characters responding? Liu said in her interview that she had ideas for where to take X-23, but had to wait and see whether Laura survives Arena. So as far as Marvel's concerned, characters in Arena are off-limits. They can only exist in one place, and that place is Murder World. So if they're really absent, and have been all this time, then seriously, what is the explanation for no one noticing? How is Wolverine not tearing the country apart looking for his daughter? How is S.H.I.E.L.D. seemingly oblivious to their own lost detainee?

This isn't just me questioning a plot point. This is me actively questioning a fundamental pillar of this book's credibility as an actual event.

#32 Posted by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: My thoughts exactly

#33 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Please re-use idea for AvX

#34 Posted by Agent_Murdoch (131 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, I've been thinking this for a while. There is no way that they are killing off so many popular characters

#35 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio

Just read Avengers Arena #7 - Rock Bottom and lets just say my theory about it being virtual reality was I would say 90% wrong.

Don't want to say too much right now but I recommend reading it if you want to see how it all began.

#36 Edited by akbogert (3192 posts) - - Show Bio

Yep. This thread's officially useless now.

#37 Edited by animehunter (1783 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Sharkbite (291 posts) - - Show Bio

At first, I was thoroughly convinced the "all a simulation" theory was a desparate grab from people who didn't want to accept Mettle's death.

After the Arcade's origin story, it seems increasingly valid. We're still left with weak to non-existant explanations of how the kids were abducted, Arcade's powers are expressly said to only control things within the arena, and it was all designed by his assistant without his own active hand in it.

I don't think the kids are in some sort of Matrix style sim. I don't think the kids are there at all. I think that the suit that Arcade is sporting that gives him "control of every molecule of the arena" is actually HIS simulator, and that the whole Arena is taking place in HIS head, so he believes he is successful and winning for once, while his assistant probably drains his accounts and robs him blind.

#39 Posted by impossibilly (883 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think the kids are in some sort of Matrix style sim. I don't think the kids are there at all. I think that the suit that Arcade is sporting that gives him "control of every molecule of the arena" is actually HIS simulator, and that the whole Arena is taking place in HIS head, so he believes he is successful and winning for once, while his assistant probably drains his accounts and robs him blind.

That is a very interesting theory. But I don't think it will pan out, mainly because one of the upcoming issues is supposed to focus on what's happening in the outside world.

#40 Posted by akbogert (3192 posts) - - Show Bio

@sharkbite said:

I don't think the kids are in some sort of Matrix style sim. I don't think the kids are there at all. I think that the suit that Arcade is sporting that gives him "control of every molecule of the arena" is actually HIS simulator, and that the whole Arena is taking place in HIS head, so he believes he is successful and winning for once, while his assistant probably drains his accounts and robs him blind.

That is a very interesting theory. But I don't think it will pan out, mainly because one of the upcoming issues is supposed to focus on what's happening in the outside world.

Indeed.

Moreover, until Nico is seen with a health bar and acting like she was before, there's no reason to think that Hopeless has been outright lying to people. And he has repeatedly, for months, made explicitly clear that Murder World is real and that the deaths are real deaths. It's hard to believe he'd be so vehement and blunt about that if it were just to try to make a twist ending more surprising.

I also think at this point Marvel would have realized that the belief that these deaths are real is probably keeping more people away from the book than it's keeping in, so if they could somehow show that it was VR that would almost guaranteed drive their sales up. My guess is they haven't because they can't -- because it's not VR.

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