The Rather Gaping Hole(s) That Will Need To Be Filled...

#1 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's lay down our arms for a moment, because whether you love or hate this book I think these are valid (related) questions that will need to be answered at some point as they require suspending disbelief to staggering heights. Namely,

For real, how did Arcade kidnap these kids?

and

How are people outside Murder World reacting?

Granted, there's a lot we don't know. Perhaps some of you don't even think they were really kidnapped, that not only is Murder World a simulation but the entirety of the plot, Arcade included, is part of a simulation. But supposing that they have in fact been kidnapped by Arcade (whether they're really killing each other or not), how exactly did he pull that off? Most of these kids were under plenty of protection. Cammi was quite literally pulled out from under S.W.O.R.D.'s nose.

I'm going to try giving Hopeless the benefit of the doubt here by assuming that will be explained at some point, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has thought of a reasonable explanation.

And regardless of how, presuming they've been kidnapped, there are quite a few people from almost every corner of the Marvel universe who will be very, very unhappy about these disappearances. It really wouldn't be feasible to ask readers to just believe no one noticed the kids were gone. Once again we'll presume this isn't an actual plot hole but merely something that hasn't yet been explained. How do you think that question will be resolved?

Note: Can this please be a thread in which opinions about the series' quality/existence are left out? Thanks.

#2 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

For the reasons you mention and the seemingly god-like powers Arcade displayed I'm guessing this is an "all a dream" scenario.

#3 Posted by Loki9876 (3049 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: I agree some people say that it is like a graduation to become an Avenger but I don't believe this, it would be too cruel.

#4 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: Hopless said that it will be explained soon, as to what that explanation is I don't know.

#5 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAmazingImmortalMan said:

@akbogert: Hopless said that it will be explained soon, as to what that explanation is I don't know.

I know he said he plans to explain Arcade's power; I hadn't actually read anywhere specifically commenting on the questions I'm raising. Not that it would really matter as this is a thread about speculation anyway, but if he has mentioned it I'd be curious to see what he's said.

#6 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: I read it in the back of one of the issues actually, where he said he will explain but he won't focus too much on it because the only way it works is if it remains concentrated in Murder World

#7 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, so far the primary answer to "how did Arcade kidnap these kids" has been he hasn't. Heh.

@TheAmazingImmortalMan: I guess I need to hunt down Q&A stuff, then. That said, I'd consider these pretty big holes that, if unfilled, would sort of undermine the legitimacy of the entire concept. It makes sense that he wouldn't want to spend half of every issue showing external pursuit, but as of now I find it hard to believe a satisfying explanation could be provided nonchalantly. If Arcade's suddenly godlike for real -- not just in simulation -- to the point where he can snatch people out of heavily protected institutions and put them somewhere entirely untraceable by any power known to man or mutantkind, that strikes me as something that honestly needs to be focused on.

#8 Posted by Sharkbite (293 posts) - - Show Bio

Arcade does make the off-handed comment about the Jean Grey School of Higher Learning having had better security than Avengers Academy, as a way of explaining why no characters were yoinked out of Wolverine & The X-Men (which then would have required explaining in the main title, given that this is a book that is still printing). While it is said a little tongue in cheek, it immediately did bring me back to Pym telling the new students joining Avengers Academy (when Juston, Julie, and White Tiger came on board) that the school had an open campus policy and they could come and go as they please.

Recalling then how easily the Runaways were able to sneak on campus and just hide in the bushes, I'm left with the impression that the West Coast Avengers Academy campus is actually not very secure at all.

In AvX when the Academy was trying to restrain the X-Kids at the school, there were no electric shock fences, unbeatable tracking cameras, and robotic monitoring systems. Their primary method of restraint was Juston's Sentinel watching the perimeter, and beyond that, it was a watchdog policy of the students keeping an eye on each other and the teachers trying to be alert.

Arena #1 establishes that they were grabbed over the holiday break while almost nobody remained at the school. If they're depending on people as the primary form of security, and those people are gone, the kidnapping sounds pretty plausable. That part I feel justified with. Academy kids and Runaways could potentially be nabbed without too much difficulty. Not much has been revealed about the Briton Academy setting yet, but the potential for all of them to be grabbed seems viable enough. Even Cammi, it seemed, had Brant discussing the option of "losing" her on Earth. Perhaps when SWORD had to choose between sending her to an alien torture camp, or sending her to Earth where she's afraid she'll be viewed as 'stupid, weak, slow', they decided that they preferred to have her take a blow to the self-esteem rather than be tortured and killed. It is not unrealistic to believe that a government agency assigns a juvenile placement somewhere contrary to what the child wants because the government does not believe that the child's desires are for the best. It happens all the time.

The kidnapping adds up well enough. It's the lack of alarm that bothers me. Pym should be flipping the heck out at HazMat, Mettle, and Reptil going AWOL, not just because they are Academy members like Juston and X-23, but because the profiles worked up had them mathematically determined to be the most likely candidates to become powerful, horrible Supervillains.

Right after Jeremy is killed at the end of Academy, and especially after HazMat and Mettle were cured (by the villain) and then re-powered into their twisted forms (which Pym then admits not only can he not cure again, but also he failed to cure them initially when Jeremy was able to). These kids are bound to be a little bit upset with him. For them to then disappear from the Academy, it seems more likely that they're going rogue than that they were kidnapped. And if the kids are going Rogue, if Pym remotely suspects it, he should be searching for them his every waking minute.

If the absenses aren't acknowledged by the Academy Staff Avengers, Pym, Cheetah, Quicksilver, heck, even Hawkeye should at least raise an eyebrow, then it just doesn't seem legit. That there is a hole that needs closed up.

#9 Posted by impossibilly (886 posts) - - Show Bio

Unless they're being kidnapped in interesting and compelling ways, I don't think we need to see how Arcade kidnapped them. That can be left to the reader's imagination.

At the point of entry into the story, the kids have been kidnapped and taken to Murder Island. Do we need to know more than that? In my opinion, no. I think the more compelling story comes from showing how the heroes are acting on the island, not pulling back the curtain on how Arcade got them there.

Arcade has kidnapped more experienced heroes in the past. I have no problem believing he could kidnap these less experienced heroes.

#10 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (3157 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

Well, so far the primary answer to "how did Arcade kidnap these kids" has been he hasn't. Heh.

@TheAmazingImmortalMan: I guess I need to hunt down Q&A stuff, then. That said, I'd consider these pretty big holes that, if unfilled, would sort of undermine the legitimacy of the entire concept. It makes sense that he wouldn't want to spend half of every issue showing external pursuit, but as of now I find it hard to believe a satisfying explanation could be provided nonchalantly. If Arcade's suddenly godlike for real -- not just in simulation -- to the point where he can snatch people out of heavily protected institutions and put them somewhere entirely untraceable by any power known to man or mutantkind, that strikes me as something that honestly needs to be focused on.

first issue Q&A he states "for the most partwe're focusing on Murder World and the characters trapped inside. But all of these kids are missed. Chances are, you'll get glimpses of the outside world as the series progresses."

#11 Posted by gravitypress (2069 posts) - - Show Bio

I must have a dirty mind because by the title of the thread I thought this convo was going to go in an entirely different direction.

#12 Posted by Target_X (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sharkbite said:

In AvX when the Academy was trying to restrain the X-Kids at the school, there were no electric shock fences, unbeatable tracking cameras, and robotic monitoring systems. Their primary method of restraint was Juston's Sentinel watching the perimeter, and beyond that, it was a watchdog policy of the students keeping an eye on each other and the teachers trying to be alert.

Actually, while the book did not say explicitly what was there--it does say that Shaw disabled the security web while he was down in the sublevels trying to make his way to the ocean. He actually mentions the defenses twice, once while fighting Pym and once while fighting Tigara.

As for my input on this. It may be a simulation, but it most likely is not one put together by the Avengers like people seem to believe. One thing to look at is that it's simply too cruel for the Avengers to put these kids through--especially when you consider the fact that half of them are considered to be high risk threats for becoming villains. Then you have the fact that Hopeless has said that their guardians will be shown to look for them later on in the series, so that all but proves that the respective academies aren't involved; unless Hopeless' intent is to deceive.

I cannot say if this is a simulation or not, Arcade is known to construct elaborate things, but it is hard to swallow that he would go through the trouble of kidnapping them for an elaborate ruse and the other options for who may be running the simulation are on shaky ground based on what Hopeless has stated. Of course, Marvel can make it whatever they want and if this is truly a backdoor for escape then they will.

#13 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sharkbite said:

Even Cammi, it seemed, had Brant discussing the option of "losing" her on Earth. Perhaps when SWORD had to choose between sending her to an alien torture camp, or sending her to Earth where she's afraid she'll be viewed as 'stupid, weak, slow', they decided that they preferred to have her take a blow to the self-esteem rather than be tortured and killed. It is not unrealistic to believe that a government agency assigns a juvenile placement somewhere contrary to what the child wants because the government does not believe that the child's desires are for the best. It happens all the time.

I'm under the impression Cammi was swiped more or less mid-conversation, from literally right in front of Brand. That's a little more unrealistic, I'd think.

#14 Posted by Target_X (379 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Sharkbite said:

Even Cammi, it seemed, had Brant discussing the option of "losing" her on Earth. Perhaps when SWORD had to choose between sending her to an alien torture camp, or sending her to Earth where she's afraid she'll be viewed as 'stupid, weak, slow', they decided that they preferred to have her take a blow to the self-esteem rather than be tortured and killed. It is not unrealistic to believe that a government agency assigns a juvenile placement somewhere contrary to what the child wants because the government does not believe that the child's desires are for the best. It happens all the time.

I'm under the impression Cammi was swiped more or less mid-conversation, from literally right in front of Brand. That's a little more unrealistic, I'd think.

Yes, she was taken mid-conversation.

#15 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

It's the lack of concern shown by the outside world that makes this particularly difficult. The abductions can be plausible, and that's because it's comics. The explanation by Arcade that there are no Jean Grey kids made me roll my eyes a little but again, plausible.

A little cutaway showing concern, especially of Brand could somewhat quell things. I do suspect it has to do with the grand exposition -- whenever that will be but because this is intended as an ongoing, it's really hard to keep patient.

#16 Posted by Sharkbite (293 posts) - - Show Bio

That's a totally differant interpretation of the Brand conversation than what I had gathered. Brand's total lack of surprise had me under the impression that she was the one in control of that teleporting, kicking Cammit out mid-sentence because she didn't want to listen to a bunch of emo teen melodrama. It had never crossed my mind that that could have been intended to be Arcade.

#17 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sharkbite: In the frame that posted, Brand literally just asked Cammi to explain herself. I see no reason why you would ask someone a question and then banish them four words into their answer. And "Back home, I'm just" hardly flags "emo teen melodrama" incoming.

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