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Why Emma Frost Is Better Off Without Scott Summers

Emma frost was an interesting character before Scott Summers, but what happened?

With the final issue of Schism set to hit stores next Wednesday, it seems this is the end of the X-Men as we know it -- so to speak. See what happens when you read so many press releases from Marvel? You start sounding like one. Okay, so perhaps I'm being overly dramatic, but with Cyclops and Wolverine at each others' throats (over a woman who has been dead for the last 7 years), what does it mean for the leadership and future of the X-Men?

'Schism' #4

The stark contrast in the respective ideals and visions these two characters hold for mutant-kind is exactly why a rift in the entire X-Men family is inevitable -- so it's not like it's something we didn't see coming. Like it or not, the fight between these two determines the fate of most of the X-Men universe. Who will side with Wolverine versus those who will stay at Cyclops' side. The release of the teaser images for both 'Uncanny X-Men #1 and #2' and 'Wolverine and the X-Men #1 and #2' (both due this October) showed the rosters for the two respective teams, and I must confess my disappointment when I first saw the cover for Uncanny X-Men featuring Cyclops in the foreground, and Emma Frost behind. I was hoping that Emma would use the rift in the X-Men as an opportunity to leave Cyclops and go out on her own again; but alas, that was not to be.

Oh dear, darling Emma Frost. She used to be so poised, calculating, impenetrable and now, they have turned her into a mere shell of her former self; living out her existence in the shadow of Scott Summers. Oh Emma. She could do so much better than him. I mean, she could be a "Queen" again, if she really wanted it. She could be with Namor.

In all seriousness, though, what did happen to Emma Frost? She was practically second in command to Sebastian Shaw in the Hellfire Club and now she's lucky if she gets one line in an issue of Uncanny X-Men. I mean, the only time she has appeared in more than one panel as of late has been to suck face with Namor -- and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying that she used to be more interesting when she was a strong, independent, commanding female character.

'Astonishing X-Men' #35

When John Byrne and Chris Claremont first created Emma Frost they managed to make her sexy and a force to be reckoned with, all rolled into one. Byrne and Claremont clearly developed Emma to be strong from the beginning; evidence of this can be seen in Emma's earliest appearances (X-Men #130) where she had managed to take control of the X-Men -- even putting Wolverine in a cage. While she did answer to Sebastian Shaw, Shaw still treated her with respect and gave Emma flexibility as a leader of the Hellfire Club in her own right. She was a villain, but she was also dangerous and interesting. There was more depth to Emma, and we got to see just how manipulative she could be. She was such a threat that the X-Men were forced to bring in the Phoenix to defeat her.

'X-Men' #130

Adversity allows for character growth, and the adverse conditions of her youth and coming to be certainly explain why Emma developed such a stoic and cold nature in the future. In 2003, Marvel released an Emma Frost series that gave fans a back story to compliment the "Ice Queen." Although her family was wealthy, she still had a hard time growing up, trying to fit in with her peers. The events she experienced in her youth led to her hard exterior and sharp tongue that would later serve to protect her.

'Astonishing X-Men' #1

She learned how to get what she wanted, but she was also (to some extent) compassionate; and her desire to teach developed when she was very young. She would later take that ambition to share knowledge by becoming the headmistress of her own school, The Massachusetts Academy. From her early appearances, Frost exuded leadership abilities. Following Jean's death she not only became a member of the X-Men, but a leader. In Astonishing X-Men v. 3 (2004) Emma becomes the co-leader of the X-Men with Scott, "acting as the school's head" while Professor Xavier was on sabbatical. Throughout this series Emma seemed to have it together, and you actually felt she was a co-leader; but her leadership of the team quickly diminished and she took a back seat while Scott took charge.

'Uncanny X-Men' #542

It seems as her relationship with Scott Summers progressed, her own character development took a back seat to their relationship. Not only that, but based on the initial fight sequence between Wolverine and Cyclops in 'Schism' #4, Scott still harbors some feelings for Jean because that's what sends him over the edge. Frankly, I can't imagine why a woman like Emma Frost would want to stick around a guy who is still hung up on his ex. Not only is it bad for her development as a character, it's also a lousy use of her overall abilities. Emma has all this potential to be awesome, but she flat-lines because she's got to be Scott's right hand girl. When was the last time we saw Emma talk about what she wanted? What her goals and ambitions are?

What do you think will happen with Schism, and do you think it would have been a good opportunity to see the Scott and Emma relationship come to an end? Do you completely disagree with my argument, and if so, why?

252 Comments
Posted by THEBlaqueBasterd

@Andy Steven Summers: If this were any more winning.. Itd have Charlie Sheens lubricant in it

Posted by SacredJules

@The Dark Huntress:

I agree completely, about them bringing out the best in each other. They compliment each other as leaders, and as lovers. I think it speaks volumes that Emma trusts Scott enough to do what he does best: He controls the chess board, and she manipulates a few key pieces into the best position for them both to win.

Although I do disagree about Scott being worse off without Emma. I think that, without her, he'd be an even more frightening leader than he is now, because he would delve completely into work without thought to a personal life.

Posted by Mercy_

@SacredJules said:

@The Dark Huntress:

I agree completely, about them bringing out the best in each other. They compliment each other as leaders, and as lovers. I think it speaks volumes that Emma trusts Scott enough to do what he does best: He controls the chess board, and she manipulates a few key pieces into the best position for them both to win.

Although I do disagree about Scott being worse off without Emma. I think that, without her, he'd be an even more frightening leader than he is now, because he would delve completely into work without thought to a personal life.

I like you.

Great first post :)

Moderator
Posted by pixelized

@THEBlaqueBasterd said:

Maybe you should stop tryin to find oppressive husband syndromes where there are none.. Though arguably successful in her own right pre Slim/Utopia era.. She has grown &evolved immeasurably SINCE their "merger" &though HE would NEVER hold it over her head.. She owes Ckyke a helluva lot more than he does her.. coz truth be told Slim woulda found a way to get the job done regardlessof her prescence &support..

Its like the f@cked up cases u hear of in court where a woman marries an already successful man already on his way to even greater things &then as soon as they get divorced she claims ALL credit for his success &u get all these over-entitled baby beak mouthed vultures crying out for equal split/invoking womens rights (smf'nh) &usually sayin "she dint need him anyway" etc O_o nahh dont think so hombre.. Not THIS time

like Ed Sheeran once sang.. "You need Me man..I dont need You"

Again, why are people acting as though Emma Frost was dumpster diving before she was involved with Scott? Not computing.

How has she grown so much? What is this growth that we attribute to Cyclops bringing out in Emma? She was a pretty decent human being before this relationship.

Posted by Trodorne
@fodigg said:

Disagree. I think you're allowing the presence of drama to signify that she shouldn't be with him, but every relationship has drama.

Exactly.
 
  Second of all I dislike how the writers at this time want to try to remind us of the 90's when Cyclops was a piss-ant and was totally useless to everyone as his entire life revolved around jean grey. if anything Emma had made him into a stronger man. yeah im sure he still harbors resentment for having to cheat on jean. but still she forgave him in the end and told him to be with emma after all, the only thing she had done for him was die on him so many times.
Posted by Trodorne

id also like to say, Emma keeps scott as a leader from turning into a full blown leader of a new brotherhood of evil mutants.

Posted by No_Name_

@The Mast said:

Namor would suck face with himself if he could.

This might be the funniest comment I have read all day. Also, 100% true.

Posted by Lovingdamnation

Wouldn't we all better off without Scott Summers?

Edited by The Mast

@Babs said:

@The Mast said:

Namor would suck face with himself if he could.

This might be the funniest comment I have read all day. Also, 100% true.

Why, thank you!

I just imagine Namor as being the most attractive person he could probably ever meet. I don't think there's a womanly figure on Earth that he'd find more attractive than himself. In fact, I'd argue that deep down he only macks on the hot chicks because, in his own mind, he's congratulating himself on how well HE is doing. Like, "Yeah, that's right. You seduce her, you sexy man. God, you're so attractive." He's probably the kind of dude who could be having sex with Emma Frost and still be like, "I bet I look so good right now."

I actually think the fact that there hasn't been any true interaction with Namor and Daken is criminal. I would LOVE to see how Namor reacts to being hit on, sexually of course, by someone who's bisexual. Is he a man's man to the point that he'd rebuff it, or would he just flick his short hair and be like, "Ugh. I know, I'm sexy. It's ok. Namor doesn't judge you."?

Posted by Kain

Emma Frost can't do better than Cyclops. In fact, she is nothing without Cyclops.

Posted by God_Spawn

@Kain said:

In fact, she is nothing without Cyclops.

Now that's a straight up lie

Moderator
Posted by primepower53

Great article!

Posted by War Killer

Honestly I've always liked Emma more that Jean, but have always been on the fence about the whole Scott/Emma relationship. I like the paring but understand why some people are against it due to the whole affair and can agree with why they are against it. Personally I really don't care if she stays with Scott or not, and actually would have thought it would've been an interesting move if she went with Wolverine and his X-Men as co-leader of that team with him and Headmistress alongside Logan.

Posted by MSBoyd23

I miss the "If you mess with my kids I will f*** you up" Emma from the New X-Men run. That's about the last time she was written really well, when there was more to her character than just snobbery and shopping and Scott. Alliteration!

Posted by mrmisanthrope

Emma Frost once killed Firestar's childhood pet horse, and lead Firestar to believe she caused it simply to give her a traumatic memory and make her more easy to manipulate.

She's admitted to having undergone massive plastic surgery, and was a glorified prostitute in the Hellfire Club until she became queen.

She took over Iceman's mind, and forced him to reshape his body to match hers. She took over Storm's mind, and then attempted to have sex with Sebastion Shaw while in her body just to hurt her. Her entire relationship with Scott began because she invaded his mind pretending to be his wife.

Seeing her written as a hero will always strike me as completely absurd, and putting her in charge of children is just always a bad example. How many teenage mutants have died under her care now, twenty?

She was never strong, she was manipulative. She's always been vain, petty, and fragile. She works as a villain, as a hero she's just plain sickening.

Posted by luckydomino1

i totaly agree she should leave scott

Posted by Roninidas

I feel Emma is a strong character and I do not believe she has taken a backseat at all; however if she were to strike out on her own I believe a bit of her ruthlessness and indomitable will; will be more present than when tied to Scott. Let's face facts when you are in a relationship you do lose a little bit of yourself (and gain more too), but decisions and actions are always generally made with your partner in mind. With Emma naturally she is a cold calculating self-empowered woman; with Scott I still see her as self-empowered, but I believe we are seeing the warmth from within shining through that cold exterior thus bringing out the best in her; and enabling her to be not so cold; not so ruthless like she was when she co-lead the Hellfire Club. Make no mistake that cold ruthlessness is still very much a part of her and I have n doubts that when (if) Scott and her separate that it will resurface. I am reminded of the old adage Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; I guarantee that if they break up for whatever reason all those years of pent up ruthlessness and coldness will come back t haunt Scott Ten Fold. I would kind of actually like to see that too. Not a big fan of Scott Summers. On a side note I hope Wolverine leaves him scarred or takes a limb in Schism 5.

Edited by Knightwraithe

While interesting there are a couple of things/problems here...

1) Marvel sucks at relationships...most of the women and half of the men in the Marvel Universe will fall into bed with anything that moves...why have their characters in relationships at all since being in a relationship in the Marvel Universe has no meaning? Many times I have wondered if any writer at Marvel has ever actually been in a relationship or is still living in their mom's basement (I know that's not true, but it sure feels that way)...and more importantly, Marvel reads more like bad TV a lot of the time rather than heroic (though realistic) stories.

2) I'll admit that I have given up on many Marvel titles (and at this rate may soon abandon Marvel all-together) so I am not certain the why for the Schism story line...however looking at the above excerpt and Wolverine telling Cyclops that Jean would be more afraid of him...it seems that my suspicion that Scott crossed some kind of "line" that Logan would not cross is the trigger...Now remind me...Wolverine is "the best there is at what he does; and what he does is not very nice" - so unless it was an "Anikin moment" of Scott telling Logan to kill a bunch of children (which I doubt) the idea of Wolverine as the "moral compass" for the X-men is unbelievable.

3) Even the sequence here with Namor talking to Emma is ridiculous. Please understand as I write this part that Namor has been one of my favorite characters in comics since Namor had his own series in Tales to Astonish...even so...Namor is one of the LAST people to give relationship advice or talk about respect...let's see...he's a man-whore for any blonde (he even has the hots for his cousin - so is he "Prince Redneck" too?)...has no actual respect for anyone besides himself (but you'd better respect him!)...Considering that his two wives/brides are dead - as a direct action/inaction on his part - I'd say his track record in relationships certainly does not make him an expert on successful relationships...so really he cannot comment...(which leads into my next point)...

4) Namor has buried several of the "loves of his life" (at least 3)...but apparently he's fairly heartless in that he has no mourning for any of them (maybe if they were blonde?). That said, while I feel that Scott's character has rarely, if ever, been really developed to it's potential (and he's always been defined by his relationships)...Jean was not only the love of Scott's life, but his FIRST love too...in the "real world" when someone that important to you dies it has a profound effect on your future relationships (particularly if you are still together with that "first love" when they die). After someone like that dies it is often hard to step into a new relationship at all. The fact that Scott is even IN a relationship with Emma (or anyone) is a big "step" (and Jean being dead 7 years in real time is irrelevant in comic book time, it's probably been a year or two comic book time at most - so it's not unreasonable that he's not gonna marry Emma yet - and yea...he "married the red-head" after 30 or so years of "real time"...Emma's got a few years to go before she can complain). Also...since the X-Books have had nothing but crisis event after crisis event since Scott and Emma got together WHEN could they have gotten married?

I think a great twist on Emma (which would still fit into her character) is that while she uses sex and sex appeal to manipulate...that she really has only "done it" with say two or three people at most (Scott being one of them) - those that she really loves - and that everyone else (Namor, Tony, etc.) only THINKS they've done it...but she's just been playing them.

Posted by Ceddsong

I''ll preface that I love Emma Frost in all her glorious incarnations: villain, heroine, teacher, seductress, etc. In all her incarnations Emma has been nothing less than powerful, confident, strong willed. Sadly, under the writing of Fraction she's lost her sense of refinement and strength. She's lost the balance to her character that made her a delight to read. Yes, she's self-serving, vain, and insecure however she is also powerful, compassionate, and wise. The issue is that most current X-men writers don't know how to play with that dynamic. Scott Summers, is certainly not the issue; in a good story ( Whedon, Mike Carey) they compliment each other. And lets be real, Emma Frost is the correct girlfriend for this Scott. I agree that Emma needs her own team simply for character development and because we haven't seen a strong X-woman leader in years. Storm, sadly,is seemingly relegated to the role of T'Challa's wife and I would give my eye teeth to see Emma truly lead a team, that would be magnificent. Let's face it. writers have a difficult time making any hero human. More than two dimensions. I would make a grand generalization that all characters face the same problems as Emma: misunderstanding, two dimensional creativity, and less than stellar writing.

Posted by TheMuteSiryn

I agree that Frost's character has simmered in the last few years, and to be honest, I never really liked the pairing of Emma and Scott. However, I believe that this is because of two reasons: 1. Male writers that struggle writing women characters, which happens all over the comic spectrum, and 2. As a reflection of real-life situations. Now, giving the male writers some slack in this situation simply because it's an entirely different argument, I'll only bring up my points regarding number two. When someone in a relationship is happy, his or her personality melds, usually, with the other's to some degree. They become a reflection of each other, and at some level, your happiness mellows you. You're more likely to care about what the other person thinks and do not want to disappoint. I've seen that in Emma the past few years. She completely understands Scott, and does recognize his lingering feelings of Jean, yet loves him anyway. This isn't that uncommon of a situation, and while nobody wants to see their favorite characters go through slumps, even the greatest giants (fictional and non-fictional) have been taken down by love. To me, it seems like an appropriate end befitting the Emma and Scott pairing. Her being heartbroken proves that a woman made of diamonds can be broken and gives her character the chance it needs to rise to the occasion once again.

Posted by Grand Marvelous

Emma Frost was better off as a stripper. Shakin that flat white booty for strangers.

Posted by oniminikui

First off; let Scott and Emma stay together. Second off, I say bring Phoenix back. I can just see the title for that issue: "Taming of the Shrew". She comes back and finds out about Emma and Scott. Infuriated, Jean comes at them like a ball of flame. When they seem at a complete lost of what to do to save the now couple, the answer comes to them: Silver Surfer. Possibly the only or the most likely person that can level her powers. In the process, they fall in love and become a VERY powerful couple, get married, and have children.

Posted by Sword5

It is more interesting to see characters grow and change based on the events of their life instead of returning to how things were a generation ago. Bad writing is your issue. That Namor scene was a joke, he was cock blocked and it should have ended with Emma smirking at him.

I hope Scott and her never get married. Marriage is basically a countdown clock to recon in comics.

Posted by God_Spawn

@oniminikui said:

First off; let Scott and Emma stay together. Second off, I say bring Phoenix back. I can just see the title for that issue: "Taming of the Shrew". She comes back and finds out about Emma and Scott. Infuriated, Jean comes at them like a ball of flame. When they seem at a complete lost of what to do to save the now couple, the answer comes to them: Silver Surfer. Possibly the only or the most likely person that can level her powers. In the process, they fall in love and become a VERY powerful couple, get married, and have children.

Jean already knows of Emma and Scott and gave Scott the ok that he can move on and live life with Emma.

Moderator
Posted by Evpraksiya

Scott Summers is Emma's Steve Trevor...he shouldn't be.

Posted by fivestarga
@nyx
Why would anyone want to see Emma with Namor? People always attack Scott for his personality but l tend to believe he's more personable than a snobbish Atlantean king. Emma and Scott want the same thing, for mutants to flourish once more, and to me it's kind of a beautiful relationship. Marvel women have always been attracted to Cyclops, he's good looking, a man in power, and tall...nough said about that. I think they fit quite nicely, I wouldn't read another X-book if marvel decided to have Emma leave him for Namor.  
 
I do agree that her and Tony Stark would be an interesting read, but just in flash backs. People tend to forget that she's not who she used to be. Much like Wolverine, she's become a better person in certain ways.
Posted by DMC

wow I guess I should pay more attention. Though I did see the preview for issue #1 the other day, I had assumed for the longest time that she would become leader of the X-Men after Schism since she's in the forefront of the Uncanny X-Men teaser.

But alas.......

If Scott had died at the end of Schism and Emma did become leader, I would definitely consider buying Uncanny X-Men on a regular basis. For so long, there's always been this perception with Emma that she's only in a high position because she shares a bed with Scott (though there is some truth to that). And there's always the stigma of her villainous past which combined with her weak/non existent co-leadership status, there's always the possibility of her undermining his authority or betraying the X-Men....which she sorta/kinda did during Utopia. At no point in my time as a comic reader (since 06) have I seen Emma in a true teaching or leadership role.

Does this mean Cyclops has to step down as leader or that they have to break up? Not necessarily. I disagree with the notion that Scott is holding her back. Maye he is, maybe he isn't, maybe it's just poor writing, or maybe the timing wasn't right. They've been through a lot lately.....more than usual.

Working together right?

Regardless I think now with this "re-launch" comes a prime opportunity for Scott and Emma to "renew their pledge" so to speak (you know the one they sorta made in front of Jean's "grave"), to actually work together for the future of mutantkind and most of all for Emma to have a more definitive role as a leader. Scott can't do it all on his own, let’s see Emma carry more of the weight.

How about having Emma deal with the human side of things while Scott deals with mutant/cosmic etc threats to mutant kind.

With public relations between humans and mutants in rough shape, Emma could step in and take on that role full time. This could include things like.........(maybe) educating human students about mutants in the US and abroad, having her lend a hand in international crises (like in the First Class film),

Then again maybe her doing basically what Xavier did isn't Emma's style, but as long as the task at hand works with her character with enough interesting twists and turns and a fine line for Emma to walk on, I think this would be a great roll for Emma.

But for something like this, she’ll probably need a team and her own book, which probably should be 'X-Men" with a slightly different cast...maybe. Scott can have to Cuckoos

Posted by The_Greatest_Username

Yes, split them up. The relationship has grown old and there's really nothing for them now. Getting married and having kids wouldn't suit Emma, so what else are they supposed to do? I really think Marvel missed a golden opportunity for Emma to leave with Logan and reopen the school, but instead they chose for her to stay and I guess have some touching moment were she says she's investing all her hard earned cash into Scott's vision.

Edited by flazam

I agree

Posted by Primebonnick

bump

i agree she should go with namor or someone else hell she can even be single and still be awesome

Posted by Vance Astro

Emma Frost is nothing without Scott Summers. He's the reason she even matters right now. Marvel can split them up if they want, it's not like it will matter for him, he'll just end up with another telepath that takes her spot.

Moderator
Posted by Vance Astro

1) Marvel sucks at relationships...most of the women and half of the men in the Marvel Universe will fall into bed with anything that moves...why have their characters in relationships at all since being in a relationship in the Marvel Universe has no meaning? Many times I have wondered if any writer at Marvel has ever actually been in a relationship or is still living in their mom's basement (I know that's not true, but it sure feels that way)...and more importantly, Marvel reads more like bad TV a lot of the time rather than heroic (though realistic) stories.

If Marvel sucks at it, who's doing it right? Does Marvel suck at relationships or do they simply not work in comics, PERIOD?

Moderator
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau

I actually think the fact that Emma became a hero is what made her relevant rather then her relationship with Scott. Not to say it didnt help but she doesnt need his character anymore to remain relevant. She simply needs to remain a hero. As a villain she only appeared once in awhile, as a hero she's in every issue. Every X-Men event (for the most part). As long as her exposure remained the same it wouldnt matter who she was with, if anyone.

Edited by Vance Astro

@gambler said:

I actually think the fact that Emma became a hero is what made her relevant rather then her relationship with Scott. Not to say it didnt help but she doesnt need his character anymore to remain relevant. She simply needs to remain a hero. As a villain she only appeared once in awhile, as a hero she's in every issue. Every X-Men event (for the most part). As long as her exposure remained the same it wouldnt matter who she was with, if anyone.

Emma doesn't need Scott to remain relevant for now, but I doubt she would have been used as heavily if she didn't have a relationship with Scott. There are far more interesting characters that could have gotten that push.

Moderator
Posted by Ubersoldier

the first and fourth panel have to be the funniest expressions made by these two by far! LOL

@babs said:

Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau

@gambler said:

I actually think the fact that Emma became a hero is what made her relevant rather then her relationship with Scott. Not to say it didnt help but she doesnt need his character anymore to remain relevant. She simply needs to remain a hero. As a villain she only appeared once in awhile, as a hero she's in every issue. Every X-Men event (for the most part). As long as her exposure remained the same it wouldnt matter who she was with, if anyone.

Emma doesn't need Scott to remain relevant but I doubt she would have been used as heavily if she didn't have a relationship with Scott. There are far more interesting characters that could have gotten that push.

Some of that depends. We could speculate and go around in circles as to what could have happened, who would have gotten a push or not, etc. But to say Emma (now) is nothing without Scott is off the mark by a wide margin. Emma made current Scott what he is as much as he made her. Maybe more so. She's the main reason he was able to shed that 90's Oh Jean Jean my everything boyscout image and transform his personality into something worth a damn. Currently she's every bit as popular as he is. The fact that Marvel went on to make 3 identical characters based off her shouldn't be overlooked either. Marvel took everything that was Emma Frost and put it into a new package for a younger demographic. I dont think they would have done that if Frost were simply Cyk's arm candy to be dismissed the minute they separated.

Edited by Vance Astro

@gambler said:

Some of that depends. We could speculate and go around in circles as to what could have happened, who would have gotten a push or not, etc.

The way I see it, is this. The premise of the thread is "Why Emma Frost Is Better Off Without Scott Summers" right? And Babs in her article talks about how Emma has kind of become a shell of her former self and she's living in the shadow of Scott Summers. Well if you think about it, when it comes to relationships in comics and female characters in general and how they get ahead, the female characters development is always slowed by the relationship or takes a backseat to the development of the male character. Cyclops is a driving force in the X-Men's story, right? So would it really benefit Emma Frost to part ways with a character that is ALWAYS a priority for Marvel's writers? In other words, if she's benefited thus far from being attached to a character of this caliber, doesn't that mean that she's become a priority simply because he is? You know what I mean? Scott & Emma have become a unit, the way Scott & Jean were earlier in the X-Men history. The Summers-Grey family as a whole were and still are a consistent staple in mutant related stories and not many characters or groupings of characters get to have that much of an impact on those stories.

@gambler said:

But to say Emma (now) is nothing without Scott is off the mark by a wide margin.

I didn't. I just think Cyclops made Emma what she is and what was built will massively decline without Cyclops. As a female character it would be a miracle if Emma continued to rise in popularity or at least stay steady without a character bigger than herself to lash on to. No female character in Marvel history has ever done that in comics.

@gambler said:

She's the main reason he was able to shed that 90's Oh Jean Jean my everything boyscout image and transform his personality into something worth a damn.

Cyclops is too important to not have had necessary character development regardless. It didn't have to be Emma that had anything to do with it.

@gambler said:

Currently she's every bit as popular as he is.

She's not as important as he is though.

@gambler said:

The fact that Marvel went on to make 3 identical characters based off her shouldn't be overlooked either. Marvel took everything that was Emma Frost and put it into a new package for a younger demographic. I dont think they would have done that if Frost were simply Cyk's arm candy to be dismissed the minute they separated.

Why? I don't see alot of Stepford Cuckoos fans out here. I don't know if their creation really served a purpose as far as it relates to their appeal on a younger audience.

Moderator
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau

The way I see it, is this. The premise of the thread is "Why Emma Frost Is Better Off Without Scott Summers" right? And Babs in her article talks about how Emma has kind of become a shell of her former self and she's living in the shadow of Scott Summers. Well if you think about it, when it comes to relationships in comics and female characters in general and how they get ahead, the female characters development is always slowed by the relationship or takes a backseat to the development of the male character. Cyclops is a driving force in the X-Men's story, right? So would it really benefit Emma Frost to part ways with a character that is ALWAYS a priority for Marvel's writers? In other words, if she's benefited thus far from being attached to a character of this caliber, doesn't that mean that she's become a priority simply because he is? You know what I mean? Scott & Emma have become a unit, the way Scott & Jean were earlier in the X-Men history. The Summers-Grey family as a whole were and still are a consistent staple in mutant related stories and not many characters or groupings of characters get to have that much of an impact on those stories.

Hahha yeah Vance, I get the premise of the thread. But you just said, "Emma is nothing without Scott." And while Cyk is the leader of the X-Men he isnt the driving force of all X-Men stories. He may be playing a prominent role now but during AvX so did Emma. In fact she's right there sharing the spotlight now. I wouldnt event attempt to call Cyclops a "Marvel Priority." Like I said, he's getting a little shine now but all that stems from the relationship with Emma. Once she hooked up with him it changed the way fans looked at him. It changed the way Marvel wrote his personality. And I never said she didnt benefit from the relationship now did I? Obviously they both did. But to say she only became a priority because she was with Scott doesnt make any sense. They made her a priority with the Hellfire Club. They made her a priority with the twins. They made her a priority back with the original Hellions. They made her a priority with the Dark Cabal, the Jean and Storm rivalry, etc. She's prominent now because Marvel realized just how much fan support she had. Didnt she have her own mini-series? How many mini-series was Cyclops in before or after hooking up with Emma? Emma was already a staple in the X-Men-U she didnt need Cyclops for that. Marvel priorities in terms of characters (and neither of us know for sure so its speculation, not fact) changes all the time based on a number of factors. Beasts been a priority, Pyscloke's been a priority, Iceman, etc etc etc. None of them were dating Scott ;) Emma could be on her own today and still have as much fan fair, as much impact, and be as big a priority as ever to Marvel. Scott could fall off the Earth yesterday and two people would care.


I didn't. I just think Cyclops made Emma what she is and what was built will massively decline without Cyclops. As a female character it would be a miracle if Emma continued to rise in popularity or at least stay steady without a character bigger than herself to lash on to. No female character in Marvel history has ever done that in comics.

But its what you said right? And I think Emma made Scott what he is now. Emma is the same old G she was from day one. A little softer around Cyk but her personality never changed. But Cyk's sure did. He became an entirely new character the second he hooked with Cyk. Cyk was prominent he was just there, nobody cared about Cyk he was just there. Then he got....then he was Seduced, by the White Queen and fans got interested. Not in her, cause they already were, but in him. Cyk's been riding Emma's bad bitch vibe for years now and if she bounced, say hooked up with Namor, then you'd see some Marvel prioritizing and just how utterly insignificant Cyk really was. I'm also aware that "some" female characters struggle but you're not making alot of sense. A miracle if Emma remained popular without Scott..........wha? She already was. Cyk isnt bigger then Emma my friend, not by a long shot. Even as a villain her stories had more impact. Just cause Cyk was in a ton of X-Men books doesnt mean sh!t to be honest. He was just there and 90% of the stories that revolved around him were boring zzzzzzzzz no fan fair testaments of lame. No female character in Marvel history has done what? Storm did it. Scarlett Witch did it. Elektra did it.......Emma would do it too.


Cyclops is too important to not have had necessary character development regardless. It didn't have to be Emma that had anything to do with it.

Thats why it took decades to happen? Thats why it didnt happen until Emma Frost? If it were such a mandate and necessary element then explain to me why no story arc, no altered future, no added sibling, vaulted his character development and fan fair the way his relationship with Emma Frost did. Jim Lee art couldnt do it, Jean Grey couldnt do it, countless X-Men stories couldnt do it. In the end it was one female character who turned Cyclops' entire persona around.


She's not as important as he is though.

She's more. She made him important. Before her people didnt give a sh!t if Mags, Prof X, Storm, or Rogue ran the X-Men. His importance is seated in being an original X-Men. Emma's importance is seated in popularity, story development, and making Cyk relevant.


Why? I don't see alot of Stepford Cuckoos fans out here. I don't know if their creation really served a purpose as far as it relates to their appeal on a younger audience.

Sorry, the point wasnt about "their" fans. Though I see em all over. Its about Emma's popularity. You dont make and establish clones of characters nobody cares about. See Wolverine, Daken, and X-23. I dont see alot of Cyclops archetypes running around Marvel. Emma doesnt need Cyk to be more popular, she already is. And it wouldnt matter who she hooked up with if anyone, her popularity would be fine, but Cyk.....Cyk would go back to the whiny Oh My God I miss Jean Grey so much afterthought he was before Emma rescued him.

Edited by SC

@gambler said:

I actually think the fact that Emma became a hero is what made her relevant rather then her relationship with Scott. Not to say it didnt help but she doesnt need his character anymore to remain relevant. She simply needs to remain a hero. As a villain she only appeared once in awhile, as a hero she's in every issue. Every X-Men event (for the most part). As long as her exposure remained the same it wouldnt matter who she was with, if anyone.

I want to agree with this but also with a small modifier. I'd say it was specifically Grant Morrison's writing that made her relevant, she was a hero for a while before that but never really at the forefront of the X-Franchise. Gen X was semi popular and I loved it, but its still overshadowed by other books at the time. To agree with you though since I also believe Emma's sudden popularity was because she was a regular (and heroic/protagonist) cast member and hero under Morrison and subsequently under other writers. Relationship wise the Cyclops factor isn't so much of a positive for her rather than a positive for him, since Grant Morrison has gone on the record that Emma was used to help provide a catalyst for his character development and changes. Cyclops was more important to the X-Men mythos than Emma sure, but Scott like the entire X-Men franchise at the time was stagnant. No characters here made other characters relevant, one writer helped make established characters relevant and not as popular characters much more popular and refined.

Now Emma exists as a cynical sarcastic jaded sexually empowered and confident protagonist in an era where cynical sarcastic jaded sexually empowered and confident characters (in most mediums) thrive. Emma exists in a franchise where its biggest selling issue was female dominant and written by a feminist. She really only needed one good writer to put her in a main title as an ongoing character for her to thrive.

Moderator
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau

@sc: I see being a Mod hasnt diminished your capacity for articulation. Nice post.

Posted by Vance Astro

@gambler said:

Hahha yeah Vance, I get the premise of the thread. But you just said, "Emma is nothing without Scott." And while Cyk is the leader of the X-Men he isnt the driving force of all X-Men stories. He may be playing a prominent role now but during AvX so did Emma. In fact she's right there sharing the spotlight now. I wouldnt event attempt to call Cyclops a "Marvel Priority." Like I said, he's getting a little shine now but all that stems from the relationship with Emma. Once she hooked up with him it changed the way fans looked at him. It changed the way Marvel wrote his personality.

I'm sorry if my post came off as condescending. I wasn't trying to explain the thread to you I was just setting out the details so that I remember them. Sometimes with long winded posts I tend to forget what I was even arguing LOL. Back on topic, Cyclops isn't the driving force of ALL X-Men stories but he's one of the biggest and he's been that for years. She's sharing the spotlight now, but he's been in that spotlight since the beginning. Whatever she may have changed for how people look at Cyclops, the spotlight would still have been and was still on him until they figured it out.

@gambler said:
But to say she only became a priority because she was with Scott doesnt make any sense. They made her a priority with the Hellfire Club. They made her a priority with the twins. They made her a priority back with the original Hellions. They made her a priority with the Dark Cabal, the Jean and Storm rivalry, etc.

How doesn't it make sense? If Cyclops is important to you as someone who is writing the X-Men, why wouldn't the character he is romantically involved with get similar treatment? Cyclops isn't as big as Captain America but his love interest is getting a pretty big push just by association, Same with Pepper Potts & Maria Hill by association to Iron Man. I don't see any of the roles she's had in Marvel's major events or in events involving just mutant kind happening if she was just "one of the girls" because otherwise, why not give Storm that role? She's an original member X-Men, a proven leader, and one of the most popular female characters they already have.

@gambler said:

She's prominent now because Marvel realized just how much fan support she had. Didnt she have her own mini-series? How many mini-series was Cyclops in before or after hooking up with Emma? Emma was already a staple in the X-Men-U she didnt need Cyclops for that. Marvel priorities in terms of characters (and neither of us know for sure so its speculation, not fact) changes all the time based on a number of factors. Beasts been a priority, Pyslocke's been a priority, Iceman, etc etc etc. None of them were dating Scott ;) Emma could be on her own today and still have as much fan fair, as much impact, and be as big a priority as ever to Marvel. Scott could fall off the Earth yesterday and two people would care.

Cyclops didn't have a mini before Emma but that doesn't mean that she's the reason he got one. The period before Marvel started doing events heavily, tons of characters were getting miniseries even characters that only first appeared in those miniseries they were writing. I don't think i'm speculating when I say that Cyclops was a priority at Marvel. He's the character most identified as the leader of their most popular team. Why wouldn't his progress be a priority? Even if Scott could fall of the earth and two people would care (which I doubt), Marvel isn't going to let that happen. If there is an event that causes Cyclops' death or causes him to be removed from X-Men comics it would only be a gimmick to make you "miss" Cyclops until he returns.

@gambler said:

But its what you said right? And I think Emma made Scott what he is now. Emma is the same old G she was from day one. A little softer around Cyk but her personality never changed. But Cyk's sure did. He became an entirely new character the second he hooked with Cyk. Cyk was prominent he was just there, nobody cared about Cyk he was just there. Then he got....then he was Seduced, by the White Queen and fans got interested. Not in her, cause they already were, but in him. Cyk's been riding Emma's bad bitch vibe for years now and if she bounced, say hooked up with Namor, then you'd see some Marvel prioritizing and just how utterly insignificant Cyk really was. I'm also aware that "some" female characters struggle but you're not making alot of sense. A miracle if Emma remained popular without Scott..........wha? She already was. Cyk isnt bigger then Emma my friend, not by a long shot. Even as a villain her stories had more impact. Just cause Cyk was in a ton of X-Men books doesnt mean sh!t to be honest. He was just there and 90% of the stories that revolved around him were boring zzzzzzzzz no fan fair testaments of lame.

What I meant by "Emma is nothing without Cyclops" is because I don't think she would even be a topic of discussion without Cyclops. Emma may have made Scott what he is now in terms of personality but in terms of his importance to the team and to the publisher, she had nothing to do with it. I'm not as knowledgeable of X-Men as you are so fill me in, what did Emma do when she was simply a member of the Hellfire Club that makes her bigger or just as big as Cyclops? Maybe it's me, maybe i'm hatin lol. I just don't recall Emma mattering that much.

@gambler said:
No female character in Marvel history has done what? Storm did it. Scarlett Witch did it. Elektra did it.......Emma would do it too.

Female characters in the Marvel Universe don't have alot of longevity when it comes to their popularity. They have their moments and then they kind of decline or fall off completely. Storm built her popularity on her own, but just a year ago her fans were annoyed because her development was been slowed or held back by her marriage to Black Panther, which tells me that even if they have a popular female property they can build on they are willing to sacrifice it, if it means a male character is going to shine.

@gambler said:

Thats why it took decades to happen? Thats why it didnt happen until Emma Frost? If it were such a mandate and necessary element then explain to me why no story arc, no altered future, no added sibling, vaulted his character development and fan fair the way his relationship with Emma Frost did. Jim Lee art couldnt do it, Jean Grey couldnt do it, countless X-Men stories couldnt do it. In the end it was one female character who turned Cyclops' entire persona around.

Whatever the length of time it would have taken to happen, I believe it would have. You've just listed several things they've tried to elevate his character, if he wasn't as important as I think he is..they would have. They aren't going to try that hard with alot of these other characters. If they don't sell or they don't maintain their status, tough break.

@gambler said:

She's more. She made him important. Before her people didnt give a sh!t if Mags, Prof X, Storm, or Rogue ran the X-Men. His importance is seated in being an original X-Men. Emma's importance is seated in popularity, story development, and making Cyk relevant.

I don't see how it's possible to make a character important that already was. There were plenty of Cyclops related characters & storylines popping up throughout the years, when he was with Jean..I don't really see how it's different in terms of importance with Emma.

@gambler said:

Sorry, the point wasnt about "their" fans. Though I see em all over. Its about Emma's popularity. You dont make and establish clones of characters nobody cares about. See Wolverine, Daken, and X-23. I dont see alot of Cyclops archetypes running around Marvel. Emma doesnt need Cyk to be more popular, she already is. And it wouldnt matter who she hooked up with if anyone, her popularity would be fine, but Cyk.....Cyk would go back to the whiny Oh My God I miss Jean Grey so much afterthought he was before Emma rescued him.

I know it wasn't, but the point I am making is that without any fans their creation doesn't actually give any merit to Emma's popularity. X-23 & Daken aren't just clones of a popular character, they are also popular themselves. Marvel has made and ESTABLISHED clones for characters they don't even really utilize anymore. Remember MVP?

Moderator
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau

@vance_astro: I'm not reading all that lol. Not to be dismissive or a dick but just because I'm not doing one of this long ass quote debates. We'll just agree to disagree. And by that I mean you secretly admit I'm right :)

Posted by Vance Astro

@gambler said:

@vance_astro: I'm not reading all that lol. Not to be dismissive or a dick but just because I'm not doing one of this long ass quote debates. We'll just agree to disagree. And by that I mean you secretly admit I'm right :)

Moderator
Posted by Yung ANcient One

@gambler said:

@vance_astro: I'm not reading all that lol. Not to be dismissive or a dick but just because I'm not doing one of this long ass quote debates. We'll just agree to disagree. And by that I mean you secretly admit I'm right :)

For the record I enjoyed both of your posts and would have liked it if Gambler would have continued. I think both of you made valid points.

However the way I see it is this.

Cyclops more important but Emma was more popular. Like Alfred and Harley Quinn. Alfred is way more important than Harley but Harley Quinn is definitely more popular.

It makes sense that she got a push because of Cyclops and Scott gained some popularity because of Emma. I personally doubt she would be as important as she is today without Scott. Yes she was a villain but villains don't necessarily last.

Where's Mr. Sinister?

Where's Shaw?

Villains are supporting characters not main characters so I kind of side with Vance thus far.

( + )

Posted by FadeToBlackBolt

What idiot bumped this?

Babs is gone, we don't have to pretend she knows what she's talking about any more.

Posted by Yung ANcient One
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau
Posted by The_Goddess_of_Chaos

all you people who like emma frost are phonies because you didnt even notice her until grant morrrison's x-men run

Posted by Jimmie_Hudson_

@the_goddess_of_chaos: how does it make us phonies because we never noticed her previously. what about the users who weren't even around for grant morrison?

Posted by The_Goddess_of_Chaos

@the_goddess_of_chaos: how does it make us phonies because we never noticed her previously. what about the users who weren't even around for grant morrison?

the users are okay i guess