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What Makes A Good Comic Book Rivalry?

Why the similarities between hero's and villains is what makes for the most interesting relationships.

One of the best things about comic books are the character relationships. As fans, we read books and follow characters and the developments of these characters over time and as a result, we become emotionally invested in their relationships. But what makes a good relationship in comics? What makes a really interesting rivalry?

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Earlier this week we saw the latest issue of BATWING (#8) hit stores, and after reviewing the issue (and thoroughly enjoying it) it got me thinking about hero vs. villain relationships. Every hero has a villain that is his or her equal. They are opposites. and these opposites only exist in relationship to one another. For example, some people would say that the Joker exists solely because Batman exists; in other words, the Joker is the "yin" to Batman's "yang." This is actually a pretty common theory and one that has come up before. Some spoilers below.

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Yet, while these two characters are oh-so different, it's their similarities that makes their interactions so interesting. Since we've already mentioned the Batman and Joker example, let's just go with that. In Alan Moore's BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE Batman and Joker share a set of scenes where the Joker explicitly draws a comparison between himself and the Batman. He talks to Batman about how there really is no difference between he and Batman -- how they are both crazy and how they both just had "one bad day."

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This theory doesn't only apply to Batman and the Joker, however; although it's probably the most common. You can apply this to virtually any great, iconic comic book rivalry. Take Reed Richards and Doctor Doom, for example. The story of how these two characters met set the foundation for their future rivalry. What makes the relationship between Reed and Victor so interesting is the fact that they are both so similar. They are both two of the most intelligent men in the Marvel universe and as a result, they find themselves in constant rivalry, disagreement and at odds with one another. And it all stems from the fact that these two have way too much in common.

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Not to mention that both Doom and Richards are, well, a little bit obsessive. When these two put their minds to something, they obsess over it until, well, they hurt someone. Or something. Or themselves. The experment we cited above (Fantastic Four #278) went horribly wrong and scarred Victor's face and led him to don the metal mask we are familiar with today.

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In BATWING #8, the issue that initially inspired this article, we saw the reveal of Massacre; the villain the was first introduced in the beginning of Batwing's ongoing series. After eight issue, we not only get to know who the man is behind the mask; but we also learn a lot about his identity. Although I had felt this series started out really strong and had taken a bit of a nose-dive, issue #8 really redeemed the series. This issue revealed more than the identity of Massacre, it uncovered the relationship between Massacre and Batwing. Here are two boys who endured many of the same trials and tribulations but still wound up in two very different places. Not only are they brothers, but they were brothers in arms. They endured the same struggles. That's what made this book so interesting. These two characters have a world of things in common, and it is what makes their interactions so interesting to read.

What elements do you think make for a good rivalry? What qualities are necessary? What are some of your favorite comic book rivalries?

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DarthShap

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@Outside_85 said:

@DarthShap said:

I would say that it is already deep enough. Raven & Trigon stories tend to repeat themselves, a lot. The entire arc that led to her first heel turn was awesome, one of the best New Teen Titans stories (and I do love the entire Wolfman/Perez run). The others however...

Well, isnt that just the shortcomings of the writer (Trigon was functionally dead from the end of Terror to Judds Titans) to make the story awesome rather than saying the relationship is bad. Like you could say the Batman/Joker relationship is equally flat, Joker makes a situation, Batman punches him in the head (eventually).

I am not saying the relationship is bad. Just that it was clearly invented to be a one-time thing, kind of like the relationship Cyborg and Starfire had with their own parents and that subsequent attempts to reuse those moments (even by Wolfman) failed because there was pretty much nothing left to tell, hence the need to repeat themselves. Basically, the final confrontation to the parent was supposed the represent the passage from teenager to adult and those three characters were completely invented with that in mind. That is why it is nothing like Batman and the Joker.

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Outside_85

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Edited By Outside_85

@DarthShap: I agree that Trigon was a one time thing in the beginning, specifically meant to be the thing that brought the team together and then we would never see him again. However, I think W/P later on came to regret that they used him so poorly, when he first arrived on Earth he was pretty much the Brainiac Skull-ship from the JLU season 4 ending; apparently the big RAH! but is quickly dealt with and never seen again. They then went back and figured out how to bring him back properly and how to make it a suitably awesome story...and Trigon never appeared after that, his ghost did though Raven and the Wilderbeest Society.

As for there being nothing left to tell...depends on the writer :)

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DarthShap

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@Outside_85 said:

@DarthShap: I agree that Trigon was a one time thing in the beginning, specifically meant to be the thing that brought the team together and then we would never see him again. However, I think W/P later on came to regret that they used him so poorly, when he first arrived on Earth he was pretty much the Brainiac Skull-ship from the JLU season 4 ending; apparently the big RAH! but is quickly dealt with and never seen again. They then went back and figured out how to bring him back properly and how to make it a suitably awesome story...and Trigon never appeared after that, his ghost did though Raven and the Wilderbeest Society.

As for there being nothing left to tell...depends on the writer :)

When I said it was a one time thing, I did not mean only the creation of the team but her entire arc up until her first heel turn and "graduation" through opposing him in TNTT (vol 2) #1-5.

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DarthShap

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@Zeeguy91 said:

I think Hal Jordan and Sinestro have one of the best rivalries in modern comics, especially the way its been developed under Johns. They have sort of the student-teacher relationship what with Sinestro being revealed to be Jordan's mentor when he first entered the Corps. Also its the simple fact that Sinestro basically agrees with the premise of the Green Lantern Corps, establishing order in the universe, but simply that he wants them to go the extra step and take absolute control and rule by fear. I think Sinestro Corps War is the story that best encapsulates this motivation of Sinestro's, because at the end he says that he still won the war because he made the Guardians codify the use of lethal force.

This relationship is still being deepened even though Sinestro is technically not the "villain" for now. We're essentially being given a sense that Sinestro has been right about the Guardians all along and that he only has the best interests of the Corps in mind. When he eventually does go back to being a bad guy, the fact that there was this moment where Hal and Sinestro had the chance to recapture their previous relationship as mentor and mentored or just simply as friends will deepen their rivalry. So, its a very complex relationship that I feel is a prime example of what a hero/villain relationship should be.

I completely agree.

I just want to say I do not understand why Johns has not developed Sinestro's past yet. He started giving hints of it years ago and I thought that the Korugar arc would be the perfect occasion but we got close to nothing in the end (pretty much like the War of the Green Lanterns crossover which turned out to be about mind control, not the ideological opposition between Guardians and Lanterns that was hinted and apparently has been postponed, this whole "third army" concept).

I love DeMatteis' Emerald Dawn II but I am surprised Johns is neither referencing it directly nor giving his own version, with added details, concerning Sinestro's relationship with his wife and daughter for instance.

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Jnr6Lil

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What do you mean by rivalry?

Cyclops/Wolverine or Joker/Batman

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Zeeguy91

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@Jnr6Lil said:

What do you mean by rivalry?

Cyclops/Wolverine or Joker/Batman

I'm pretty sure the fact that the author mentions Joker and Doctor Doom as his primary examples in the article means that her/she is talking about hero/villain relationships in comics.

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Jnr6Lil

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@Zeeguy91 said:

@Jnr6Lil said:

What do you mean by rivalry?

Cyclops/Wolverine or Joker/Batman

I'm pretty sure the fact that the author mentions Joker and Doctor Doom as his primary examples in the article means that her/she is talking about hero/villain relationships in comics.

Ah, Rivalry isn't the best word than.

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FoxCircuit101

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Edited By FoxCircuit101

Contradictions between hero and villain are essential. Look at Superman and Lex for example, they're the same and opposites-both are very powerful in their own way. But Superman uses his physical strength to serve others while Luthor uses his power in the system to serve only his own self.

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DarthShap

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@Jnr6Lil said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@Jnr6Lil said:

What do you mean by rivalry?

Cyclops/Wolverine or Joker/Batman

I'm pretty sure the fact that the author mentions Joker and Doctor Doom as his primary examples in the article means that her/she is talking about hero/villain relationships in comics.

Ah, Rivalry isn't the best word than.

Neither is "than", then. ^^

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Jnr6Lil

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@DarthShap said:

@Jnr6Lil said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@Jnr6Lil said:

What do you mean by rivalry?

Cyclops/Wolverine or Joker/Batman

I'm pretty sure the fact that the author mentions Joker and Doctor Doom as his primary examples in the article means that her/she is talking about hero/villain relationships in comics.

Ah, Rivalry isn't the best word than.

Neither is "than", then. ^^

lol

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htb106

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Edited By htb106

wow his brother so...

original

jokes aside may be deeper than it looks

great rivalrys involve them being very closely related take the doctor and the master for example they're both the last survuvors of their planet, yes i just referenced dr.who.

bow ties are cool

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GrandSymbiote94

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So that's horrible disfigurement Doom was hiding? Really? That's what his mask was hiding? Come on now, a little bit of make up can cover that up.

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TheGeekCritique

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We believe a villain should be conceived first before the invention of a hero. This villain should portray the worst characteristics in audiences that people try to ignore or hide away in their psyche. Once established, a hero should emerge that is the opposite of the villain but not as strong as the villain. This hero must overcome his or her weakness in order to defeat the villain and that is when audiences will invest their emotions. It's the classic underdog story, but it only works when an antagonist is engaging enough to pull the protagonist through hell for the protagonist's (and subsequently the audience's) own salvation.

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Jnr6Lil

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@TheGeekCritique said:

We believe a villain should be conceived first before the invention of a hero. This villain should portray the worst characteristics in audiences that people try to ignore or hide away in their psyche. Once established, a hero should emerge that is the opposite of the villain but not as strong as the villain. This hero must overcome his or her weakness in order to defeat the villain and that is when audiences will invest their emotions. It's the classic underdog story, but it only works when an antagonist is engaging enough to pull the protagonist through hell for the protagonist's (and subsequently the audience's) own salvation.

Most villains emerge after the hero

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KidSupreme

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lol the hair :D

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