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The Evolution of Cyclops—How the X-Men's Leader Lost His Heart

How did the X-Men's leader change from compassionate teammate to ruthless tactician?

Being a comic book fan can sometimes feel like an uphill battle; one where you, the reader, are so heavily invested in any given character, concept or title for years; but are virtually helpless in the direction of said character or concept. The direction of a character is left up to the creative team of the title or book—and when you have over fifty years of character history that has changed hands from one creative team to the next, the character is bound to evolve in one way or another.

Sometimes, characters change so much, that they are hardly recognizable when compared to their first appearance. One example of a very prominent character that has undergone drastic personality changes is Cyclops, the leader of the X-Men.

== TEASER ==

This observation sort of came out of left field for me since I had never really been invested in Cyclops as a character, and I hadn't really read many of Cyclops' past appearances, up until recently when I had to read some back issues of Chris Claremont's X-Men searching for Moira MacTaggert's first appearance. It was in the first few pages of X-Men #96 that I was completely caught by surprise.

Who the heck is this guy? He looks like Cyclops- blue suit, funny visor—but he's not acting like the Cyclops I'm familiar with. The first few panels in X-Men #96 take place after the death of one of Cyclops' former teammates, Thunderbird. It was Thunderbird's second mission, and he failed in his attempt at stopping Count Nefaria- a move that ultimately led to his death. It was a death that happened under Cyclops' watch and there was nothing Scott could do to stop it. In the first few panels of the issue, Scott is depicted walking through the woods, mourning the death of his teammate and the fact that there was nothing he could do to stop it. In fact, he is so overcome with emotion and grief, that he momentarily loses control of his powers.

Fast forward to the relaunch of X-Force by Craig Kyle and Chris Yost. In the very first issue of the series, and within the first few panels, Cyclops approaches Wolverine and tells him that not only does he want to relaunch X-Force to do the X-Men's dirty work- but that he had already sent Wolverine's "clone," X-23 into battle. X-23 who is a fragile, teenage girl; had been manipulated and used as a weapon to kill and was created as a result of the Weapon X project. Cast aside and treated like less than a person, X-23 falls victim to Cyclops's inability to acknowledge her as anything but a tool.

This Cyclops has a blatant disregard for a child's psychological instability and has no problem treating her like she's always been treated- a weapon. This Cyclops is pretty heartless. Why would he send a fragile X-23 off to join X-Force, a team of mutant killers that have to put their code of ethics to the side to get the job done? Rather than exhibiting the same concern that Xavier did for Scott as a young mutant trying to find himself, Scott has no concern for Laura. This is not the only time Cyclops has nonchalantly sacrificed a team member, either. Towards the end of Second Coming, Cyclops sent Cable along with X-Force forward into the future in order to shut down the Nimrod production line—knowing full well that there would be a good chance the group would not be able to return. The result? Hope is left helpless and without a father, with only Scott to blame. Essentially, Scott killed his own son.

When did Cyclops go from an emotional and caring team member, to a heartless team leader whose only concern is to get the job done? Cyclops' first real dramatic change in character occurred after X-Men: The Search For Cyclops in which Cyclops was consumed by Apocalypse. Even after Scott was saved by Nate and Jean Grey, Scott was permanently altered. His personality changed and he eventually has an affair with Emma Frost. Hand spirals even further into darkness following the death of Jean Grey.

The question is, must Scott sacrifice compassion for his teammates in order to be a powerful leader? Does this lack of compassion make him a better leader, anyway, or could it be hindering him in some way? What do you think of Scott Summers' evolution from then up until now, and do you think he's making the right decisions for the X-Men? Could his decisions be what cause the 'schism'?

283 Comments
Posted by Ferro Vida
@Anodyne: Not thinking clearly does not mean incapable of lying... And again, his personal life has nothing to do with his abilities as a leader.
Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7
@ImperiousRix: Cyclops is nothing like Magneto. When Cyclops attempts genocide then I'll agree with them being similar.
Posted by EnigmaMystery

I love Cyclops. I think he's a fantastic leader and sacrifices his own humanity for the good of the many instead of the good of the one. One has to do that in order to successfully be a leader in a group so surrounded by war.

Edited by ArtisticNeedham

Someone at a comic book store told me that if you are talking about Marvel characters you are talking about jerks.  So I guess he was saying that Xavier is a jerk, Scott is a jerk, Nick Fury is a jerk, the Watcher is a jerk, Reed Richards is a jerk, Tony Stark is a jerk, Maria Hill is a jerk, etc.  And I was think about DC, the Guardians of the Galaxy have been jerks right?  Green Arrow can be jerky right?  any other DC characters?  Maybe its just people with big time authority.

To me they started making him a jerk when he had psychic affairs on Jean, making a character dramatically flawed doesn't make him more interesting all the time, sometimes it just makes the character seem like a jerk.

Posted by MrCipher
@Ferro Vida:
 @SleepyDrug:

 I really appreciate a great intellectual argument. I think you both have very valid points. It's also refreshing to see a true evolution of a super hero with honest and real reasons for his or her development! 
Posted by shackle

"Liking" a character doesn't mean he or she is a "good" character; likewise, "disliking" a character doesn't mean he or she is a "bad" character.  This is what separates the writing professionals do from fan fic.

Posted by JonesDeini
@SC
Would you mind pointing out some of these tactical flaws.
Posted by Ferro Vida
@MrCipher: I do as well, and it's something that doesn't happen nearly enough lol. Love the AV, btw. Franklin was a great movie.
Posted by MrCipher

@Babs:

Fantastic article! I really appreciate a character that's developed so dramatically over the years. I seem to remember you offering a similar view on Batgirl but placing more emphasis on the development of the mantle of the identity and those women who have taken it upon themselves to fill her boots.

Great job here.

Posted by ImperiousRix
@Ferro Vida
That certainly is a more apt comparison.  And I understand the Marvel marketing and writing team are using more hyperbolic terms to try and get us to draw similarities between Cyclops and Magneto, but there's no doubt that some of those similarities are valid.

Cyclops I doubt is going to declare war against homo sapiens, but his methods still remain more Magneto-esque than they once were.
Posted by Ferro Vida
@ImperiousRix: While that statement is true, it is also true to say that he has taken the middle ground between Xavier's tactics and Magneto's tactics.
Edited by AfternoonWalker

Ummmm... perhaps I am missing something that some of you oh-so-great comic minds have picked up, but there is no comparable situation to that of the x-men over the past decade.  While I may disagree with some of the creative efforts to change the paradigm of the X-Universe, it is hard to argue with some of the changes in characters to respond to these.  Wolverine has a much more strict moral code as a result of the meories and child he gained post m-day, kitty pryde has grown up in astonishing x-men, emma frost has become a well-liked hero as a result of the genocide of genosha and these are only 3 examples.  Cyclops has changed to respond to issues only mutants have dealt with.  Their government cast them out, their allies ignore them and their own people have had to respond.  Cyclops has done what any leader of any nation has had to do; measure the needs of the many against the needs of the few.  Think about it: how do you protect what is left of your race against hostile forces that want to see you eradicated?
Posted by SC
@JonesDeini said:
Sometimes the ends do justify the means. People on their moral high horse should consider if they in the same situation would've been willing to face down the laser of a Sentinel unit secure in knowing that "Yeah I'm Dying...but by God I'm dying with honor!!!". As far as Scott organizing X-Force goes, yeah he did it, he made a black ops team to do what had to be done. So what?

Magneto agrees, and thats why those Politicians who commissioned those Sentinels need to die and anyone who tries to stop him should as well. Personally, I don't see why the X-Men be getting up in his grill all these years with their moral high horses either. (this is also funny because Cyclops got on his high horse speaking to Hellion when Hellion had to face down the laser of a Sentinel) 

As far as Scott organizing X-Force goes, yeah he did it, he made a black ops team to do what had to be done. So what?


If its that simple why didn't Cyclops just let senior X-Men know? Storm, Nightcrawler, Beast, Xavier? His actions there directly endanger the mutant race and his team. How whack is it, that the same day, Kurt finds out about X-Forces existence? Is the same day he dies. Who gets to decide what has to be done? Isn't that the justification all people use to justify everything? I quoted parts of your posts, because its not that I disagree with you, I actually share similar views, but there is like so much so what to be had here. Oh and Cyclops and Wolverine should so know what they did with X-23 is wrong. In fact this isn't really a point of contention since Cyclops the character has already conceded this point. (plus speaking as a fan, without applying objectivity, I loved X-Force by K&Y and glad X was there, Cyke was great there as well, there was this page, which actually just showed Cyclops in contemplation which was great. That could mean so much, guilt, pressure, doubt, worry, self criticism) thats a stark contrast to some other books which used him way more.  

My point is there are a whole, whole lot "this is what" and of holes here with this character and holes are making him a more interesting character, sure. Other characters are being affected negatively though as well. What happens when the backlash comes? When Cyclops gets written as a caricature? Look what happened to him in X-23 lol What will happen if Mark Millar writes Civil War 2, Cap America VS Cyclops? (what I mean by that, is many Iron Man fans were pissed he was written as the bad guy and his point/side were downplayed to prop up Cap) 
Moderator
Posted by Ultimate_MiracleMan
@Ferro Vida: True, but she's also trying to fix that and trying to better herself. But Cyk does have alot to deal with so he can get away with being a bit of a douche, but only a bit.
Posted by ImperiousRix
@Ferro Vida
Very true.  In fact, that's probably a much better way of putting it.  If Magneto is too radical, and Xavier too passive, then Cyclops has taken a middle ground as leader.
Posted by HexThis

People keep saying that Scott has all the pressure of the world on him to lead the mutants but what we're forgetting is that mutants are a race, they're a community of people who are of the same race trying to co-exist on an island. Utopia and the mutant right should all be issues of democracy, not one sole, iconic leader who makes their decisions for them....that's what we call fascism.

This "pressure" Scott has on his shoulders is self-inflicted because he had the audacity to claim the X-men as his own and has been managing things horribly. Xavier did have his misgivings but he not only delegated power to other mutants but extended himself to people of power to improve mutant-human relations as mutant-mutant relations.

People are right, times are tough....and in these tough times he allowed Beast to slip through his fingers, he exiled Xavier, pissed off Storm, unfairly shoved Rogue out of leadership. Clearly, he only likes to be around people of like-minds or people he can control.

Posted by Ferro Vida
@Ultimate_MiracleMan: To his credit, he admitted that what he did with her was wrong.

@SC: If he had told Kurt, Xavier, Storm, or Beast then they just would have disagreed with him. Having one person in charge means maximum efficiency because there is no one debating the point, and in a time of war that is necessary. In World War II government on both sides took greater control of the resources at their disposal so as to use them more effectively. 
Posted by A Boy Named Art

So after years of being criticized precisely for having an ethical compass, as opposed to Wolverine's pseudo-Byronic nonsense, now fans are upset Scott's taking more of a hard line? My sympathies are minimal. If Schism falls prey to the same kind of heavy-handedness that plagued Civil War, it would be a shame, because right now the X-books are, collectively, a better superhero franchise for Marvel than the Avengers brand. 

All that said, solid analysis, Babs!

Posted by SC
@JonesDeini said:
@SC: Would you mind pointing out some of these tactical flaws.

I could be here all day. Writers don't write for realism, they write for entertainment, I call shenanigans if you can't name a few tactical flaws made by Cyclops or any comic character. 

Why didn't he send Ariel, Nightcrawler, Colossus, Rogue and Domino to get Vanisher, have Rogue take Vanishers powers seeing as Cyclops wouldn't trust Hope with Vanisher but he would Nightcrawler and then have Rogue bring Hope back to Utopia in one move, instead of putting so much pressure and strain on Nightcrawler who got killed. 

Putting all mutants in one place? The only thing that has saved them being wiped out by Isolationist or some other people trying to kill them, is the fact that they are fictional characters. Its a huge and glaring tactical flaw. People with rocket launchers kill more people on X-Men grounds than Magneto, Juggernaut, Mr Sinister and Apocalypse combined? Did the X-Men defenses just drop drawers and bend over? Whose brain was not working there? I dunno, maybe if Forge was there he could have created and upgraded Mansion security eh? Oh no, he was off start to fall into insanity. Given his powers and abilities and how dire times are for the mutant race, one might wonder if a certain head might be utilizing him better? Its not Cyke though and I am not applying these tactical flaws on him. Its the narrative I can't buy set by writers. Don't tell me Cyclops is the greatest leader of all time, show me. When the two writers writing the character/characters demonstrate limited knowledge of the characters and the book they are writing? Hah, it just makes it that much harder for me to believe them, when they try and establish such defining traits. 

Those above examples okay with you? I am sure you can find your own, and you are... understanding my point right? As in the context I am using?
Moderator
Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7
@HexThis: So I guess all modernized democratic countries are fascist?
Posted by JonesDeini
@SC said:
@JonesDeini said:
Sometimes the ends do justify the means. People on their moral high horse should consider if they in the same situation would've been willing to face down the laser of a Sentinel unit secure in knowing that "Yeah I'm Dying...but by God I'm dying with honor!!!". As far as Scott organizing X-Force goes, yeah he did it, he made a black ops team to do what had to be done. So what?

Magneto agrees, and thats why those Politicians who commissioned those Sentinels need to die and anyone who tries to stop him should as well. Personally, I don't see why the X-Men be getting up in his grill all these years with their moral high horses either. (this is also funny because Cyclops got on his high horse speaking to Hellion when Hellion had to face down the laser of a Sentinel) 

As far as Scott organizing X-Force goes, yeah he did it, he made a black ops team to do what had to be done. So what?


If its that simple why didn't Cyclops just let senior X-Men know? Storm, Nightcrawler, Beast, Xavier? His actions there directly endanger the mutant race and his team. How whack is it, that the same day, Kurt finds out about X-Forces existence? Is the same day he dies. Who gets to decide what has to be done? Isn't that the justification all people use to justify everything? I quoted parts of your posts, because its not that I disagree with you, I actually share similar views, but there is like so much so what to be had here. Oh and Cyclops and Wolverine should so know what they did with X-23 is wrong. In fact this isn't really a point of contention since Cyclops the character has already conceded this point. (plus speaking as a fan, without applying objectivity, I loved X-Force by K&Y and glad X was there, Cyke was great there as well, there was this page, which actually just showed Cyclops in contemplation which was great. That could mean so much, guilt, pressure, doubt, worry, self criticism) thats a stark contrast to some other books which used him way more.  

My point is there are a whole, whole lot "this is what" and of holes here with this character and holes are making him a more interesting character, sure. Other characters are being affected negatively though as well. What happens when the backlash comes? When Cyclops gets written as a caricature? Look what happened to him in X-23 lol What will happen if Mark Millar writes Civil War 2, Cap America VS Cyclops? (what I mean by that, is many Iron Man fans were pissed he was written as the bad guy and his point/side were downplayed to prop up Cap) 
I get what you're saying about my ends justifying the means thing. But aren't you being a bit hyperbolic? There's a difference between outright race war and attacking those who have A)Attacked you in the past and B)Plan on doing so, with lethal force again. We both agree that without X-Force and their missions Bastion would've likely succeeded in ending the mutant race. 

Why didn't he let them know? Do you really think they wouldn't have made a fuss to everybody else on the island or stormed off or basically blown the whole operation. They wouldn't have been willing to make that call. I would love to see how Hank or Storm would've dealt with the threat of Bastion's forces. Invite him to Utopia to discuss their differences over tea? I think he was well handled well in X-23 (2010 volume).  if anything I think most writers are already trying to write Scott in a negative light. And please, let's not give Millar any ideas lol. 
Posted by SC
@Ferro Vida said:
@SC: If he had told Kurt, Xavier, Storm, or Beast then they just would have disagreed with him. Having one person in charge means maximum efficiency because there is no one debating the point, and in a time of war that is necessary. In World War II government on both sides took greater control of the resources at their disposal so as to use them more effectively. 

Who gets to decide time of war? Magneto decided it was time for war a while back, and he was one person in charge, and Kurt, Xavier, Storm, and Beast would have disagreed with him as well. 

Why do you suppose Kurt, Xavier, Storm, or Beast would have disagreed? 

Also where have all the X-Men and mutants voted to allocate Cyclops the amount of power to which his decisions have reflected? 
Moderator
Posted by JazGalaxy

THe evolution of Cyclops has been the best thing about the xmen comic book for the past 20 years.


It's not like it happened over night.

The 90s were utterly consumed with cyclops stories investigating what made him tick and bring to the surface time after time that Cyclops was unstable, psychologically weak, and for some reason a good leader. He's a leader because he can handle it where ohters can't. Not necessarily becuase he does it effortlessly or is good at it.

He's the other side of Wolverine. Where Wolverine is the guy who gets to do what he wants with no rules because he's good at it and came make it out on the other side a winner, Scott is the guy who everyone turns to, depends on, and looks up to because he can shoulder the burden. Even at the expense of his own soul.


Posted by Ferro Vida
@HexThis said:
People keep saying that Scott has all the pressure of the world on him to lead the mutants but what we're forgetting is that mutants are a race, they're a community of people who are of the same race trying to co-exist on an island. Utopia and the mutant right should all be issues of democracy, not one sole, iconic leader who makes their decisions for them....that's what we call fascism.This "pressure" Scott has on his shoulders is self-inflicted because he had the audacity to claim the X-men as his own and has been managing things horribly. Xavier did have his misgivings but he not only delegated power to other mutants but extended himself to people of power to improve mutant-human relations as mutant-mutant relations. People are right, times are tough....and in these tough times he allowed Beast to slip through his fingers, he exiled Xavier, pissed off Storm, unfairly shoved Rogue out of leadership. Clearly, he only likes to be around people of like-minds or people he can control.
Contrary to what you might think, fascism isn't always a bad thing. A democracy does allow for everyone in a community to have a voice in who leads them. But it is inefficient as f@ck. Elections take time and resources, and worst of all they can be very unstable. In a situation where any sign of weakness could very well spell doom for everyone, there is no room for an aggressive system based on argument. They needed a single, decisive leader with the experience necessary to lead. In a time of peace fascism is unnecessary because people have the time to waste on elections. They are capable of showing a variety of opinions without having to fear the possibility of their disunity being exploited. In a time of war, unity is necessary if a nation is to have any hope of winning.

You say Scott has been doing things horribly. Who do you think would do better? Who has more experience leading mutants against overwhelming odds? Improving human-mutant relations was a fine goal when there were more than three hundred mutants on Earth. Now their main goal is to survive until something happens to bring back their species.

He let Beast slip through his fingers? As opposed to holding Beast on Utopia against his will. He exiled Xavier, the man who was undercutting his authority. He pissed off Storm, which is SO hard to do. He demoted Rogue because she showed that she couldn't follow orders. If he let her get off without some form of punishment then it would undermine his authority. The fact that her gamble paid off is irrelevant. 
Posted by Ferro Vida
@SC said:
@Ferro Vida said:
@SC: If he had told Kurt, Xavier, Storm, or Beast then they just would have disagreed with him. Having one person in charge means maximum efficiency because there is no one debating the point, and in a time of war that is necessary. In World War II government on both sides took greater control of the resources at their disposal so as to use them more effectively. 

Who gets to decide time of war? Magneto decided it was time for war a while back, and he was one person in charge, and Kurt, Xavier, Storm, and Beast would have disagreed with him as well. 

Why do you suppose Kurt, Xavier, Storm, or Beast would have disagreed? 

Also where have all the X-Men and mutants voted to allocate Cyclops the amount of power to which his decisions have reflected? 
I'm pretty sure there being three hundred mutants left on Earth and several different factions actively trying to wipe them out would equal a time of war. When it gets to the point that the mutants need to start their own independent nation to escape prejudice, incarceration, and death.

Because they all have an issue with killing.

See my most recent post. Elections take time that the X-men didn't have. Cyclops didn't actively seek to become the leader of a species, that species chose him as their leader when they went to the X-men for sanctuary. If they weren't okay with his leadership then they would have gone elsewhere.
Posted by The Stegman

well although i too like the old gentle scott better...really i can't blame him for being a bit rougher around the edges, i mean before he was the leader (partially, sharing the bulk of the work with Xaivier) of a team, yes that's challenging but it could still give him some off time, now he is the SOLE LEADER of not just a team, but an entire race of people that are still being killed by anti mutant extremists and who are nearly extinct, he is living in harsher, more desperate times, and desperate times call for desperate measures, i think its the only way to go with the summers character, because the scott we once knew would have buckled under this kind of pressure. plus i have to admit, i'm impressed with him, he is a brilliant leader, a great tactician and is really leading the x men effectively, some would argue he's thinking more clearly now than ever

Posted by SC
@JonesDeini said:
I get what you're saying about my ends justifying the means thing. But aren't you being a bit hyperbolic? There's a difference between outright race war and attacking those who have A)Attacked you in the past and B)Plan on doing so, with lethal force again. We both agree that without X-Force and their missions Bastion would've likely succeeded in ending the mutant race. 

Why didn't he let them know? Do you really think they wouldn't have made a fuss to everybody else on the island or stormed off or basically blown the whole operation. They wouldn't have been willing to make that call. I would love to see how Hank or Storm would've dealt with the threat of Bastion's forces. Invite him to Utopia to discuss their differences over tea? I think he was well handled well in X-23 (2010 volume).  if anything I think most writers are already trying to write Scott in a negative light. And please, let's not give Millar any ideas lol. 

I answered your other post by the way, lol, that was really funny/freaky how I already quoted you elsewhere lol as you asked me a question ^_^

Sure, there are always differences, I am not trying to picture here that Cyclops and Magneto are the same. There are tons of important details. Just say your points don't really distinguish much, since Magneto was attacked in the past, by people working within the US, and he knew they were planning on attacking him and mutants again as well again with lethal force and humans as well to get to mutants! Oh,and I don't agree that Bastion would have succeeded since that veers into creative decisions, out of the in story context. In that context X-Men will never die into they drop past 20 k in sales each issue. Mutants, X-Men, they don't need X-Force, they don't need Cyclops leadership. This is just the priority of some X-Editors as I pointed out in my earlier posts. Same as Jean and X-Factor not needing Cyclops to drop Maddy and son to run over and pretend he is 16 again. 

Yes, why didn't he let them know? Do I really think they wouldn't have made a fuss to everybody else on the island or stormed off or basically blown the whole operation? Is that a question or a statement? X-Force didn't form at Second Coming, and I don't think they would have all brought Jeggings and headed to a Justin Bieber concert either, so? Willing to make what call? They aren't real people. You have to clarify my friend, then I'll give some opinions about what I would consider in character and practical. Yes, I am sure Hank and Storm would have invited Bastion over for tea? In the second draft for Second Coming, Cyclops kills Bastion, by destroying the moon with his optic blast and the moon chunks destroy the Earth and then Butterball and Mr Immortal lay claim as Cyclops being the greatest, prettiest, sexiest leader of all species ever in the Ominverse. Hnnngh... wait... huh... ahhhhh. Sorry, the thought of that made me... what's that song again? Jizz in my pants? Yep that. lol See? Strawman arguments are easy to construct for both of us. 

You mean the part where a demon in his form acts like a pedophile? I mean, I know and can distinguish that that was a demon, and I agree that book series has been good, and Wolverine and Cyclops acknowledged the mistakes they have made which was great. I just know that some Cyclops fans have been annoyed at Liu over how she has treated and written Cyclops. (and demons that look like him) 

I guess it depends what writers you mean? For me a lot write him well, its as I said, the editorial decision to prop up the character to try and make more interesting, and what that demands of X-Resources. If they can't make him interesting whilst sharing the spotlight alongside other characters then why bother? Right now, X-Books depends on the hardcore fans who will buy anything, but its still seeping readership and its no longer Marvels number one franchise. Most of its other characters are in really crappy positions as well unless blessed by appearing in certain other X-Books. Instead of trying to make one character more interesting, how about making the team interesting? Why can't that be an editorial edict? 
Moderator
Posted by Nerx

Cyclops has enough of taking sh!t from wolvie and the X-Men

Posted by SC
@Ferro Vida said:
 I'm pretty sure there being three hundred mutants left on Earth and several different factions actively trying to wipe them out would equal a time of war. When it gets to the point that the mutants need to start their own independent nation to escape prejudice, incarceration, and death.

Because they all have an issue with killing.

See my most recent post. Elections take time that the X-men didn't have. Cyclops didn't actively seek to become the leader of a species, that species chose him as their leader when they went to the X-men for sanctuary. If they weren't okay with his leadership then they would have gone elsewhere.

So when there are 30 mutants left, Cyclops can start killing innocent human children? By like... grabbing their hair and swinging them around by their ears? lol 

There is some graph out there that shows 300 mutants = Team of hit men out to kill enemies? So Magneto just sucks at counting right? If there are 3 million mutants, then its bad to kill and form hit squads and when X-Men lecture him with a moral high ground and say X-Men Do. Not. Kill. They actually mean, eh, Do Not Kill if there are more than 300 mutants all up. 300, lucky number, lets go fry some fools. Cap some ass, and chew bubblegum? 

You justify how its war now? Why wasn't it, when Magneto was keen on killing? 

Of course they have issues with killing, as far as I know, Cyclops has issues with killing too no? Is he out there visor off killing willy nilly? So I am not sure what your point is. 

Oh, so when they look for protection, it gives immunity to anything the leader of the people defending them does? Well, thats what Magnetos justification is as well then in past years right? The reason he just goes ahead and does what he wants? Who cares about elections and reasons to kill, stop humans! No time for that eh? This is again, if we forget the creative process here. Oh, and Cyclops has time to have psychic sex mid mission but not to discuss these matters of life and death with senior X-Men? Yeah, surely you understand my point, even if you disagree with it. I more than get your point, mainly why I have not being quoting you to try and change my mind. Would you say Cyclops is probably your favorite X-Men character? 
Moderator
Posted by crazed_h3ro

The same can be said about Bishop. The Marvel writer's drasticly changed Bishop into a loyal X-man,into a hate-mongering murderer, I can understand that he lost everything because of the mutant that caused his world to become what it was (Hope Summers) but that does not give you the right to start hurting everyone in his way of revenge. This is not the Bishop I knew in the 90's, not at all. same goes to Scott, he's been through a lot but still does not give him the right to outright leave people hanging, and using people as tool, let alone his own friends and teammates, I will give him benefit of the dough because of  " X-Men: The Search For Cyclops".

Posted by Eet Mor Puppee

How exactly does making hard decisions equate to losing one's heart? Cyclops isn't running around gleefully sending people to their deaths, he's doing what he can to save the biggest number of lives. 


The Cyclops from those old comics was created in a time period when comic books very rarely dealt with death. Team members never died, no matter how slim the odds of survival were. The X-Men always did the right thing, and everything always turned out fine in the end (although the world still always managed to find a reason to keep hating and fearing them). That's completely unrealistic.

The books that Marvel puts out deal with more complicated moral issues. Do we really want to see superheroes always find a way out of impossible scenarios? Anyone with any military experience knows that no mission is completely devoid of risk. Deaths and injuries will happen. 

Cyclops, along with the rest of the Marvel Universe, is being written a bit more realistically these days. The characters are stuck in a world where their actions have severe consequences, and I'm liking that for the most part.
Posted by HexThis
@Ferro Vida said:

Contrary to what you might think, fascism isn't always a bad thing. A democracy does allow for everyone in a community to have a voice in who leads them. But it is inefficient as f@ck. Elections take time and resources, and worst of all they can be very unstable. In a situation where any sign of weakness could very well spell doom for everyone, there is no room for an aggressive system based on argument. They needed a single, decisive leader with the experience necessary to lead. In a time of peace fascism is unnecessary because people have the time to waste on elections. They are capable of showing a variety of opinions without having to fear the possibility of their disunity being exploited. In a time of war, unity is necessary if a nation is to have any hope of winning.


There are only about 200-300 mutants right now, organizing any sort of election or open discussion wouldn't be hard to assemble in the least- it could be done in an afternoon. Plus, even without argument the X-men are operating under quite an aggressive system- Scott had a squad of black ops X-men killing their enemies unbeknownst to everyone. The motions of which he are a part of, even X-force, represent the entirety of the mutant race now. Shouldn't they have a say in how they're represented?

Of course they need to form a united front in a time of war but with the way Scott's leadership has caused more division amongst the X-men than anything. The revelation that he put together X-force was something that Beast, Storm, and Nightcrawler, people who have risked their lives on Scott's behalf countless times for years, were opposed to. How has his method really bonded the mutants? This conversation is all prefacing a schism...

You say Scott has been doing things horribly. Who do you think would do better? Who has more experience leading mutants against overwhelming odds? Improving human-mutant relations was a fine goal when there were more than three hundred mutants on Earth. Now their main goal is to survive until something happens to bring back their species.

I would restore Charles to his position and establish a counsel to support him. Beast would handle logistics, and I'd make Storm, Magneto, and Namor generals.

 He let Beast slip through his fingers? As opposed to holding Beast on Utopia against his will.

He could've saved Beast, one of his most powerful assets whom he uses regularly for tech support, from Dark Beast sooner.

He exiled Xavier, the man who was undercutting his authority.

No, he exiled Xavier because of a personal vendetta. Xavier acted irresponsibly and because it affected Scott personally he chose to send one of the most powerful voices behind the mutant right packing. He also casually jabbed at Xavier for not being a mutant anymore, effectively kicking him to the curb.
 

He pissed off Storm, which is SO hard to do

Well, she did beat him senseless without powers and lead the X-men. Like her temperament or not, she's important to the X-men. 

He demoted Rogue because she showed that she couldn't follow orders. If he let her get off without some form of punishment then it would undermine his authority. The fact that her gamble paid off is irrelevant.

As if Scott hasn't made a few gambles himself?
Posted by Ferro Vida
@SC@SC said:
So when there are 30 mutants left, Cyclops can start killing innocent human children? By like... grabbing their hair and swinging them around by their ears? lol 

... I don't understand this statement's relevance at all...

@SC said:

There is some graph out there that shows 300 mutants = Team of hit men out to kill enemies? So Magneto just sucks at counting right? If there are 3 million mutants, then its bad to kill and form hit squads and when X-Men lecture him with a moral high ground and say X-Men Do. Not. Kill. They actually mean, eh, Do Not Kill if there are more than 300 mutants all up. 300, lucky number, lets go fry some fools. Cap some ass, and chew bubblegum? 


The number of remaining mutants isn't important so much as the goal of the X-men; they aren't trying to build a better future where humans and mutants can live together in peace anymore. They are just trying to survive. They are trying to survive politicians who want them to be numbered and sterilized, or just killed out-right. They are trying to survive radical religious groups that want to exterminate them and will stop at nothing to achieve this. They aren't the same old X-men. Their modus operandi has changed and Cyclops has had to change with it.

@SC said:

You justify how its war now? Why wasn't it, when Magneto was keen on killing? 


See my above statement.

@SC said:


Of course they have issues with killing, as far as I know, Cyclops has issues with killing too no? Is he out there visor off killing willy nilly? So I am not sure what your point is. 


I don't think you have read a single one of my posts. Cyclops understands the difference between necessary ruthlessness and violence for the sake of violence. A ruthless action that has the ultimate goal of securing the future of mutant-kind is one that can be forgiven. He isn't off killing will nilly, but he is actively taking out threats to their species. Beast, Storm, Kurt, and Xavier don't see things this way and would not agree with his tactics, as can be seen by Beast abandoning the X-men when he found out.

@SC said:

Oh, so when they look for protection, it gives immunity to anything the leader of the people defending them does? Well, thats what Magnetos justification is as well then in past years right? The reason he just goes ahead and does what he wants? Who cares about elections and reasons to kill, stop humans! No time for that eh? This is again, if we forget the creative process here. Oh, and Cyclops has time to have psychic sex mid mission but not to discuss these matters of life and death with senior X-Men? Yeah, surely you understand my point, even if you disagree with it. I more than get your point, mainly why I have not being quoting you to try and change my mind. Would you say Cyclops is probably your favorite X-Men character? 
I really don't understand your point because you don't seem to understand what I am saying. If every mutant left in existence had a problem with Cyclops' leadership then they would be free to go off on their own and see how they fare. By remaining with the X-men they are acknowledging him as their leader, because the X-men acknowledge him as their leader. No one else has stepped to lead the species, so in spite of the criticism that he is receiving he must be doing something right. If Storm really felt that he was out of line then she could have challenged him for leadership of the team. She did not. Scott told Xavier to leave, but he chose to listen to Scott. If the senior X-men disagreed with his plans then it would only create disunity among the group that is supposed be serve as the foundation for the population of Utopia. 

Yes, he is. Followed quickly after by Nightcrawler. 
 
Posted by SC
@crazed h3ro said:
The same can be said about Bishop. The Marvel writer's drasticly changed Bishop into a loyal X-man,into a hate-mongering murderer, I can understand that he lost everything because of the mutant that caused his world to become what it was (Hope Summers) but that does not give you the right to start hurting everyone in his way of revenge. This is not the Bishop I knew in the 90's, not at all. same goes to Scott, he's been through a lot but still does not give him the right to outright leave people hanging, and using people as tool, let alone his own friends and teammates, I will give him benefit of the dough because of  " X-Men: The Search For Cyclops".

Thats a great, great point! Bishop was trying to save like infinity more lives than Cyclops. Ends justify the means. Plus all he was going to do was kill one girl. Maybe its a racial issue? (I kid) 

Main point is that X-Men writers/editorial want us to identify Bishop as the villain and so reshape his characterization, then role the narrative to support the details. Cyclops they want us to identify as the good guy, likewise a restructure Cyclops characterization, still, and so it becomes the ends justify the means again, and all about tough decisions and other cliche sayings. Me myself, I give him the benefit of the doubt because its just not that inspiring of a creative move for X-Men franchise to go. I am all for to giving Cyclops more prominence, but not at the expense of other characters, including himself! 

This like goes all the way back to House of M. Deadly Genesis. Anyway, I'll save that for another post, I just wanted to say great point! I liked old Bishop and Old Cyclops and I am not against character development and evolution. 
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Posted by FadeToBlackBolt

I love the fact that the people who criticise Cyclops are those that know nothing about him. No offence to Babs, but come on, Scott had an affair with Emma? No, he was psychically raped by Emma.

As usual, my feelings on the matter can be summed up with this;

Posted by Ferro Vida
@HexThis: I'm tired, so I'm going to keep this short.

If the mutants didn't like the way that they are being represented then they could very easily leave. No one is making them stay on Utopia. Cyclops leads the X-men, and the mutant species looks to the X-men for safety. Everything Cyclops has done in his position has been to secure a safe future for mutants. Do you also disagree with Wolverine reforming X-force afterward? Once they had accomplished the goal that Scott had set for them, he disbanded the team. They aren't his personal gestapo, they were a necessary evil.

Beast doesn't have the stomach for killing and Storm refuses to take a life. Magneto and Namor don't have these problems. Before he made any decision Xavier would have to consult these four. But having more people in the loop you increase the likelihood that something piece of information leaks out. And if Xavier took one side over another than he would end up creating a division within his own council that would eventually create a division within the mutant population.

There's not much use to arguing with would haves and could haves. Beast didn't leave until after he learned about X-force. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

You admitted that Xavier acted irresponsibly, so I don't feel the need to address this point further.

That has nothing to do with this. I didn't say she wasn't an important X-man, but your whole argument is that he pissed her off. I think she'll live.

Scott was the leader, so yes he took a few gambles. Rogue disobeyed his orders in taking her gamble. That's completely different because she is undermining the authority of the person in charge.
Posted by Malonius

Cyclops has been f'd with so hard by Sinister and Apocalypse and the Phoenix and Xavier. I like him. He's very much like a normal guy who's been thrust into this position and is dealing with it like a real person. Get the job done, Scott.

Posted by Elextro

I was never a big Cyclops fan... but I must say I'm starting to like him now. Maybe he'll switch to an anti-hero, which would be epic. Or would that be going to far?

Posted by daredevil21134

I love Scott Summers but I don't read X-Men anymore so I can't really comment but I do miss him with Jean Grey

Posted by SC
@Ferro Vida said:
 ... I don't understand this statement's relevance at all...
 
Its to illustrate a difference in attitudes and how they reflect actions. Your sure that X number of mutants and X number of factions trying to kill = war and all the things war means? Yes, no? Close? 


The number of remaining mutants isn't important so much as the goal of the X-men; they aren't trying to build a better future where humans and mutants can live together in peace anymore. They are just trying to survive. They are trying to survive politicians who want them to be numbered and sterilized, or just killed out-right. They are trying to survive radical religious groups that want to exterminate them and will stop at nothing to achieve this. They aren't the same old X-men. Their modus operandi has changed and Cyclops has had to change with it.

I am just going of what you wrote. Number of mutants is a part of the equation to what equals what and what war means no? 

Magneto was trying to survive how he thought best. Its extreme but actual politics actually tried to kill Magneto, it killed people he was close to. So is he justified now? Sure, well for that part we switch back to the out of narrative creative control, which is where the majority of my criticism has been. Cyclops doesn't need to do jack. What he is doing, is trying to be justified by that being what he has to do. Where there are literally infinite creative possibilities available. I expect more of the people writing him and controlling him and X-Men. 

I don't think you have read a single one of my posts. Cyclops understands the difference between necessary ruthlessness and violence for the sake of violence. A ruthless action that has the ultimate goal of securing the future of mutant-kind is one that can be forgiven. He isn't off killing will nilly, but he is actively taking out threats to their species. Beast, Storm, Kurt, and Xavier don't see things this way and would not agree with his tactics, as can be seen by Beast abandoning the X-men when he found out.


I just took your line as i read it. I have read all your posts addressed to me, and most of what I could elsewhere. The characters you mentioned? They understand he difference between necessary ruthlessness and violence for the sake of violence, but what you might mean, is that their takes and perspectives are difference to Cyclops yes? This not, a yes or no type casual character quality. Its relative. Or these actions are. A ruthless action that has the goal of... depends on the action no? X-Men have had threats to their species before. If not for the narrative, Cyclops could be one such threat as well. Isolation, advocating a hit team, to kill? These are all huge factors that could undo the X-Men if not for the fact that you know, they are in a book sold every month. lol. 

Beast, Storm, Kurt, and Xavier might not agree with his tactics, they might have better tactics, or arguing the finer points of the tactic used and morals and ethics and effectiveness of tactics might actually, creatively, be 100 times more interesting and satisfying and include more characters in the story line that what we have been given. At least to me? Your justifications to me? Have been more competent than the characters, and to me, thats a reflection of how Cyclops is being misused. If Cyclops actually sat down with Kurt and Storm and Xavier and tried to argue how X-Force was necessary back when he was about to form it? Then say Storm agreed as well after a issue of back and forward discussion covering things discussed in this thread? That would have me buying into Cyclops abilities a million times more than Magneto floating down and kneeling in front of Cyclops because the write thinks that makes Cyclops seem like a better leader and then goes on the record about how screwed that scene up and limited knowledge of the Magneto character. Beast was as poorly written as Cyclops. Beast leaving while his team is injured? It makes both characters look incompetent. 


I really don't understand your point because you don't seem to understand what I am saying. If every mutant left in existence had a problem with Cyclops' leadership then they would be free to go off on their own and see how they fare. By remaining with the X-men they are acknowledging him as their leader, because the X-men acknowledge him as their leader. No one else has stepped to lead the species, so in spite of the criticism that he is receiving he must be doing something right. If Storm really felt that he was out of line then she could have challenged him for leadership of the team. She did not. Scott told Xavier to leave, but he chose to listen to Scott. If the senior X-men disagreed with his plans then it would only create disunity among the group that is supposed be serve as the foundation for the population of Utopia. 

Yes, he is. Followed quickly after by Nightcrawler. 
Are you sure? I would say you don't understand me, if you don't understand me, understanding you not understanding me... *raises eyebrow* 

Oh see thats it, you don't understand me, lol, I am switching between two contexts here, as I was originally. The in story context? Then the creative, out of story context. If all the mutants were written to be able to lick their elbows, then wow, call Guinness World Records book, because some misconceptions are about to be shattered. There is only one X-Men Universe, of course no other character has stepped up. What you go with here is in story context, most of my arguments have been creative. There has been the in story argument of Cyclops hypocrisy, but this can be dealt with by the out of story creative context argument, the character has evolved and developed, as for the purpose of making him more interesting. Its also why he hasn't aged in real time. Its also how he has pulled all this off. Its also why I believe Kurt doesn't have to be dead because Cyclops is more competent than that but X-Events need deaths. So I understand the in story arguments here? Not the in story arguments here. Then with the leadership, Utopia, 300 mutants all on that island? My criticism is real life creative control context. Mischaracterized characters and boring stories. Potential, but it hasn't lived up so far. If Marvel wanted, Toad could be sitting where Cyclops would be, and there'd probably be some fans who brought that narrative. 

So say, what's your opinion on whether Storm could have had some interesting story lines in the last five years having a bit of ethical and moral clashing with Cyclops? What if early on she disagreed with him, but stuck by him and agreed with his overall intent and then he likewise gave her props back, for making all this easier for him? Then that with Xavier? Or maybe Kurt? Or what story ideas do you have, that incorporate more X-Men that haven't been used as much, do you have any? Just rough, don't have to be fan ficts. My point would be... I would probably prefer what you would throw out as opposed to what we have been giving unless your going to suggest more X-Men bowing and kneeling before Cyclops and Cyclops banging more psychic ghosts while more X-Men get owned by Empath. lol


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Posted by SC

I really, really hope Xerox Kitty posts here later... 

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Posted by Evpraksiya
@Hailinel said:
Cyclops.  Where other characters are heroes, anti-heroes, or villains, he is simply a dick.
+1
Edited by JonesDeini
@SC said:

@Ferro Vida said: 

Okay, too, too tired to address all of this, but at what point was Cycke a pedo demon? Cuz I saw that nowhere in the first three issues. I know "Hellverine" was trying to get Laura to serve him, but Scott was trying to find a way to make amends for what he'd done and help her work through her issues. 

And I hate how Bishop was made into the bad guy, terrible choice. 
Posted by Wingfoot

@FadeToBlackBolt

Really love the picture. Well done.

Posted by Wingfoot

@Evpraksiya

Wolverine's fans... forever teenagers.

 

:)

Posted by Blurred View

It's an overreaction to accuse Cyclops of being heartless and losing his humanity and really not something supported by the comics.


Cyclops was trained to be the leader mutants needed him to be and that's what he has become. He was never supposed to be another Xavier. Mutants didn't need another dreamer. They needed someone to make the tough decisions. The situation became less about civil rights and more about imminent extinction. Cyclops reacted accordingly. Who gave him the right to decide? All the mutants who have been choosing to follow him did. 

Making tough decisions doesn't make you heartless. It makes you a leader. Cyclops cared that he sent Cable on a suicide mission. He just did it anyway. That was his job. That's what people were depending on him to do. It's not about lacking compassion. It's about knowing what you have to sometimes do in spite of it. He weighed Laura's possible rehabilitation against the need for her skills. If a leader can't make these calls, then yes, that is a bad leader.

I love the developments in Cyclops' character lately. I see it as an evolution like the title says and not some dramatic personality shift. I've always seen Cyclops as one of the more pragmatic leaders, and it's great that circumstances have fallen into place that allowed him to really become the strong leader figure he should be. The real shame here is that Storm hasn't been around to take the natural opposition role as the more idealistic one, and it just seems wrong that Schism is going with Wolverine instead of her.
Posted by Mercy_
Moderator Online
Posted by SC
@JonesDeini said:
@SC said:
 I like to wear orange and gold short shorts, and I am damn proud of my ability to do so and look dashing. 
Okay, too, too tired to address all of this, but at what point was Cycke a pedo demon? Cuz I saw that nowhere in the first three issues. I know "Hellverine" was trying to get Laura to serve him, but Scott was trying to find a way to make amends for what he'd done and help her work through her issues. 

Cyclops wasn't, a demonic dream manifestation thing that looked like him... yikes, I can't remember. In the Cyclops Forum or X-23 forum though, in the last 12 hours a thread has been bumped which has all the scans in them I do know though, I know a few Cyclops fans at other sites, thought this was Liu vilifying him unfairly to point out how poor his treatment of X-23 was. That thread should be easy to find, and if you don't have it, you can see what i mean. 
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Posted by Mercy_
@JonesDeini said:
@SC said:

@Ferro Vida said: 

Okay, too, too tired to address all of this, but at what point was Cycke a pedo demon? Cuz I saw that nowhere in the first three issues. I know "Hellverine" was trying to get Laura to serve him, but Scott was trying to find a way to make amends for what he'd done and help her work through her issues. 

And I hate how Bishop was made into the bad guy, terrible choice. 
He wasn't. There's a Cyclops the pedophile thread running around somewhere with the scans in it. Long story short, it was Hellverine either taking the form of or possessing Cyke in a bid to really really really screw with Laura's head. It was NOT Cyclops AT ALL. 
Moderator Online
Posted by SC
@JonesDeini said:
And I hate how Bishop was made into the bad guy, terrible choice. 

X-Editorial is forcing lots of weird ideas in a bit to cater to fans supposed short attention spans. They rely on the fact the more savvy readers are the type who will buy no matter what, and X-Books not being number 1 franchise anymore isn't that big of a concern to Marvel. All books are bleeding sales anyway. X-Books need more pro all characters creators. Plus quality too! Quality writers, rely less on gimmicks. 


@The Dark Huntress:  I made sure he knew it was not Cyclops!! V_V *red*
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