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Spider-Man Battle of the Week RESULTS: Scarlet Spider vs. Lizard

Kaine or Curt Connors? A winner has been picked!

Spider-Man's month-long celebration continues! This week, we placed one of his most brutal allies, Scarlet Spider, against one of his most savage villains, Lizard. A battle between these two is sure to be prolonged, vicious and full of injuries. The community has been speculating about this fight since Monday and they've overwhelmingly sided with one of these combatants. According to most Comic Viners, this is a fight that Kaine will eventually win.

Kaine received an impressive 72% of the votes. Lizard earned just 24% and 5% think this one is simply too close to call. While Lizard is an undeniably tough character to defeat, Kaine does bring a couple of advantages to the table that cannot be overlooked. First and foremost, has variety on his side. Not only does Scarlet Spider have his stingers for stabbing and slashing damage -- something that can definitely do major damage to Curt over time -- he also has organic webbing and, thanks to his costume, he can turn invisible. Webbing may not be able to restrain Lizard for too long, but even having an advantage for a moment or two could be critical. Secondly, Kaine's an anti-hero. He's trying to change his ways, but ultimately, he's willing to resort to more violent methods, if needed. Considering Lizard's ferocious ways and his accelerated healing factor, it's safe to say that Kaine will eventually realize he needs to make proper use of those stingers. He has the speed, strength and pain tolerance required to stay in this fight for a decent amount of time, too.

It does feel like the Lizard was sold short in the poll, though. It's understandable if you think Kaine could ultimately win, but there were more than a few "if Peter can win and he holds back, then so can Kaine" remarks and that seems like an oversimplification of this fight. Peter has admitted to not holding back at times against Connors and he was still unable to best Lizard with his punches. He often required a plot device -- many times relying on his intellect -- to defeat the villain. So this really isn't as simple as "if Peter beats Lizard, so does Kaine!" No matter who comes out on top, this isn't going to be an easy win for either of them. Anyway, let's check out a great post made for each character.

Viner Post for Scarlet Spider is by Wyldsong

"If I were to argue a win for Kaine...just to play a little devil's advocate, we first need to look at his stats. Kaine is stronger than Spidey, faster than Spidey, and is far more ruthless than Spidey. While Spidey may not have the luxury of holding back when fighting the Lizard, it still doesn't mean that he is jumping into lethal tactics. It just means he has to use his full strength for the Lizard to even feel it. With his stingers, Kaine has the means to damage the Lizard, and a neck snap from an other enhanced Spidey at least dropped the Lizard temporarily once upon a time. As for the Spidey brain stab...it could be argued that the Lizard was subdued due to the cure, but on the other side of the argument, we don't have a whole lot of proof stating that it wasn't the piercing of the brain itself that subdued the Lizard.

While it may be argued that Kaine doesn't use his webbing as tactically and as often as Pete, there are instances of its use when he is on the ropes or even facing a difficult foe. For example, take a look in Scarlet Spider #2, when he faced the fire wielding Salamander. Kaine at one point webs himself up to survive a fire attack, breaks his webbing, then webs Salamander up before dealing the finishing blow. You can also see an instance where he uses webbing to help put a choke hold on Salamander. I can find enough instances of him using webbing tactically in combat to make a decent argument of him being more than just a base brawler, and having the presence of mind to use it when he needs it.

His damage soak seems to be about equivalent to Pete, as he can take a ton of punishment (blunt, slashing, piercing, etc) and can keep on going without missing a step. The stealth suit, while not used in every battle, has been used enough in combat for consideration as well. He has feats of reacting to speedsters (fast enough to cut one's leg off and he avoided their attack), a teleporter, and so on, and attacks he wasn't aware of. He has enough bullet and energy attack dodging feats to be considered moderately impressive by Spidey standards, so he definitely has the agility angle covered...not that the Lizard will be using bullets or energy attacks...but he is comparable to Spidey stat wise in that arena.

With all of this in mind, it could be arguable for Kaine taking a very slim majority. He has the means to hurt the Lizard with his stingers, it is not out of the realm of feasibility that he could use his stealth suit in combat for an advantage, and he has used webbing while brawling in hand to hand, which would be harder to dodge up close and personal. When you factor in that the Lizard could be dropped or slowed by a neck snap or brain piercing, and the fact that it is within Kaine's means and morals to do both (and that Kaine is far more brutal in combat than Spidey), I don't see it being out of the realm of feasibility for Kaine to pull a win.

Anyhow, thus endeth my devil's advocate rant."

Viner Post for Lizard is by jashro44

"Anyways just to provide some more reasons as to why I think Lizard wins, I was rushing to respond to everyones argument because I felt people were really underestimating the Lizard. Anyways even though I said Lizard wins 8-9/10 I still think this would be an epic fight and bloody fight. Kaine definitely has the means to challenge Lizard but ultimately Kaine is outclassed.

Strength: In terms of strength the only major feat I can think of for Lizard off the top of my head is rag dolling spider-man around. Admittedly this is a feat which Kaine can also do however I am going to give the edge to Lizard. Even before Lizard current transformation I would say he was stronger than peter. Peter even went on to state that the Lizard is 3X stronger than he is. Now this could possibly be hyperbole however the main point here is that even before his upgrade. Now that he has been upgraded he is even stronger. Basically my reasoning for giving Lizard the edge in strength is that I would say that for the most part they were comparable before Lizard got his upgrade however now that Lizard got his upgrade in no turning back, his strength has increased.

Speed: This is where I think Lizard takes a huge edge. Looks at the fight between him and peter in no turning back. Whenever Peter hits him its because Lizard has his back turned and is focusing on civilians. The reason that Lizard isn't eating these people alive is because whenever he sees them he sees Connors wife and kids. Likewise k4tzm4n has confirmed he won't be suffering a mental break down so here this isn't an issue. Kaine is faster than spider-man however unlike Peter he doesn't have trainning form shang chi nor does he have spider-sense and these are things which help Peters combat speed a lot. If Kaine is faster than Peter's its not by much, and Kaine certainly doesn't use his speed and agility in the same manner as Peter. The fact that Peter couldn't touch Lizard tells me a lot about his combat speed, where as in spider-island when Kaine was in tarantula the spider-sense (which was randomly working for some reason) and way of the spider combination was too much for Kaine. Now he is different now but even so I think the comparison is noteworthy. Even as the scarlet spider he's been tagged by Anna, was having a hard time avoiding Kraven (he did win however Kraven did want to die as well so who knows...), and the lobos. Point being is that even if Kaine is faster than peter he lacks spider-sense to make up for it and this has been shown in many fights. And even with spider-sense and way of the spider Peter still couldn't keep up with current Lizard. I'm not trying to downplay Kaine but I just want to be clear that he isn't much faster than Peter is.

Damage soak: Again I am giving Lizard the edge here just for the simple fact he has a healing factor. He was recently stabbed in the brain, and Peter still needed to use all his webbing to hold Lizard down. That means that Lizard was still pretty strong. He's also been stabbed through the chest and he wasn't knocked out, and all though Kaine does have some good blunt force durability its not to the point where Peter hurts his hand punching him unlike Lizard. Now Kaines damage soak is very impressive as well. He's been shot in the shoulder and proceeded to tank multiple slashes across the face from the speedster (he probably moved with the slashes), He was slashed by Annas poison knife quite a few times and kept going, and he took 4 punches from a bloodlusted SpOck. I still say lizard is more impressive but Kaines pain tolerance will help him make things interesting.

Versatility: Kaines stinger will allow him to damage however so will Lizards claws and teeth. Kaine does have the webbing and the stealth suit but these are abilities he doesn't use often (and in regards to webbing he doesn't have the accuracy feats to tag Lizard). I think Lizard has the edge here simply because Kaine neglects his versatility quite a bit. In melee Lizards claws and teeth will be a lot more helpful than Kaines stingers since Lizard can actually tank the damage. Kaines pain tolerance will allow to take some slashes from Lizards claws and teeth, but he wont recover from them. Likewise I think a tail swipe from Lizard is more devastating than a punch/kick from Kaine. Yes Kaine has more options, but he doesn't use those options much.

I don't think Lizard has a huge advantage in any area but the way I see it lizard has every relevant advantage. Kaine could have the edge in versatility since he has more of it but as I said he really doesn't take advantage of his versatility. Additionally another point to bring up is Lizard is much more savage than Kaine is and will likely go for the kill. Kaines morals are loose but he does have them. Example is even after he killed Kraven he brought him back to life. Kaine will go for the kill if he has to but I think he will be a bit more hesitant than the Lizard would. He might not start out that way (he also might start that way as well but even so). And I may as well address the other but I don't see Lizard pushing Kaine to go into his other form. He's only done when his friends lives are at stake (basically when he is driven bloodlusted) so its not something which will help Kaine much. I will say if Kaine does go into his other form he would win, but its not happening in character.

I would really love to see this fight (even if I do think Lizard should win a large majority), and as I said I see a lot of blood in a fight like this. I just see Lizard taking a large majority and I can't see Kaine doing much better than Peter did recently."

Do you agree that Scarlet Spider should eventually beat Lizard or do you think Lizard's claws and durability would overcome? Feel free to share your thoughts and continue the debate below. Also, don't forget to check the homepage on Monday for a new Spider-Man Battle of the Week! In the meantime, you're welcome to make suggestions right here in the comments or via Twitter.

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Posted by dondave

Apalling

Posted by Frozen

When's the next one of these? Pretty interesting...

Edited by MonsterStomp

I missed this! Lizard ftw!

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Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2

@k4tzm4n: you've been doing very good threads however sorry to say this is possibly one of the most outrages poll results current lizard would takes an overwhelming majority vs Kaine due to Kaines lack of spider sense which is they only reason spiderman can keep up wth lizard , lizard is a lot stronger and faster than Kaine plus Kaines not as smart or skilled as peter I wouldn't see him lasting long eapcially his rush in tatic would be like suicide

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Edited by k4tzm4n

@comicsrulebutdbzdoes2 said:

@k4tzm4n: you've been doing very good threads however sorry to say this is possibly one of the most outrages poll results current lizard would takes an overwhelming majority vs Kaine due to Kaines lack of spider sense which is they only reason spiderman can keep up wth lizard , lizard is a lot stronger and faster than Kaine plus Kaines not as smart or skilled as peter I wouldn't see him lasting long eapcially his rush in tatic would be like suicide

Not sure why this is directed at me -- I never even said who I side with. People believe Kaine wins, so I said what advantages he brings to the table. I even have a paragraph saying why I believe Lizard wasn't given proper credit in the poll.

@frozen Check the signature ;)

Staff
Posted by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2

@k4tzm4n: sorry didn't mean to say it was you, was just saying all the ther polls have been correct I feel but this one was absurdly wrong,didn't mean in anyway at all was anything to do with you ,I was jaunt saying keep it up these threads been good

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Posted by MonsterStomp

Got to give it to @jashro44 for that nice breakdown on Lizard. Pretty well thought out.

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Posted by k4tzm4n

@k4tzm4n: sorry didn't mean to say it was you, was just saying all the ther polls have been correct I feel but this one was absurdly wrong,didn't mean in anyway at all was anything to do with you ,I was jaunt saying keep it up these threads been good

Ah, okay. Thanks.

Staff
Posted by jashro44

Got to give it to @jashro44 for that nice breakdown on Lizard. Pretty well thought out.

Thanks!

Posted by Wyldsong
Posted by TheTrollDance

Good arguments for both sides, only thing that bothers me is that this battle had already been done before. Keep 'em coming thou!

Posted by jashro44

@wyldsong: Thank you, COngratulations too you to for the Kaine argument.

Posted by k4tzm4n

Good arguments for both sides, only thing that bothers me is that this battle had already been done before. Keep 'em coming thou!

Where?

Staff
Edited by GraniteSoldier

@jashro44: As I said earlier in the week, good post for Connors.

I hate to be that guy but popularity really did win the day here. Kaine is tough and vicious, but he's not walking away from this fight.

Edited by ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2

@k4tzm4n: any spoilers on which next battle of the week is gonna be?maybe a team battle to mix things up?

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Posted by jashro44

@jashro44: As I said earlier in the week, good post for Connors.

I hate to be that guy but popularity really did win the day here. Kaine is tough and vicious, but he's not walking away from this fight.

Thank you.

As for popularity I guess its to be expected. All at least a few people did learn about Lizard.

Posted by Wyldsong

@jashro44 said:

@wyldsong: Thank you, COngratulations too you to for the Kaine argument.

Thanks bro=)

That was the devil's advocate argument I told you not to read in the voting thread=)

Posted by jashro44
Posted by powerplay

Couldn't disagree more. Kaine might be stronger but the lack of spider-sense is a big deal.

On a different note, how does Kaine avoid gunfire if he has no spider-sense? He is not that fast.

Posted by jashro44

Couldn't disagree more. Kaine might be stronger but the lack of spider-sense is a big deal.

On a different note, how does Kaine avoid gunfire if he has no spider-sense? He is not that fast.

He is. Both Kaine and spider-man have dodged bullets after they are fired.

Posted by TDK_1997

Great argument for the Lizard by @jashro44. Great Job man!

Posted by Wyldsong

Couldn't disagree more. Kaine might be stronger but the lack of spider-sense is a big deal.

On a different note, how does Kaine avoid gunfire if he has no spider-sense? He is not that fast.

Plenty of street levelers far slower than Kaine avoid gunfire. Spider-sense is not a prerequisite to dodge gunfire/bullet time, and Kaine is faster than Spidey.

Posted by jashro44
Edited by TDK_1997

As much as I love Kaine however I have to disagree a lot with the outcome of this battle. He is more than capable of doing well against the Lizard but in the end he will be beaten badly.

Posted by Lvenger
Posted by jashro44
Posted by TimeLordScience

@jashro44: have to second (or third, fourth, whatever :D) what everyone else is saying, your breakdown was great.

Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf

I really think Lizard should have won handily.

Posted by jashro44
Edited by Wolverine08

I really think Lizard should have won handily.

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Posted by dondave

@omgomgwtfwtf

I really think Lizard should have won handily.

Agreed

Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf
Edited by Wolverine08
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Edited by OmgOmgWtfWtf
Posted by Owie

I've never really been one of those people who blames a loss on the popularity of the other character, but that does unfortunately seem to be the case this week. Or at the least a misunderstanding of the abilities of the losing character.

Edited by RisingBean

@jashro44: I may have to get a T-shirt that says "Jashro was right."

Posted by Wolverine08

@risingbean: How about you get a shirt saying "Wolverine08 is the best there is or ever will be." instead?

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Posted by RisingBean

@risingbean: How about you get a shirt saying "Wolverine08 is the best there is or ever will be." instead?

I'll get that one too. It'll say "Wolverine08 is the best there is or ever will be..."

On the back it'll have text saying "And what he is best at is trollin'!"

Posted by Wolverine08

@wolverine08 said:

@risingbean: How about you get a shirt saying "Wolverine08 is the best there is or ever will be." instead?

I'll get that one too. It'll say "Wolverine08 is the best there is or ever will be..."

On the back it'll have text saying "And what he is best at is trollin'!"

Good job RisingBean! Spread the word!

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Posted by RisingBean

@wolverine08: Oh I shall. The Gospel of Wolverine08 will be known to all.

Posted by Wyldsong

@owie said:

I've never really been one of those people who blames a loss on the popularity of the other character, but that does unfortunately seem to be the case this week. Or at the least a misunderstanding of the abilities of the losing character.

The Lizard has often been underestimated many a time in the battle forums.

Posted by AmazingWebHead

Like I said...

Posted by BeaconofStrength

Posted by jashro44
Posted by MASTER_OF_SUPRISE

I actually agree with the results. I feel Kaine's stealth suit is the deciding factor here.

Posted by GraniteSoldier

@master_of_suprise: Even though the Lizards senses are about as keen as Wolverine's and he can sniff Kaine out? And heal through any punishment Kaine can dish? Just curious what you think the stealth suit (that Kaine doesn't even use that much in character) would provide give Kaine a win against Connors?

Edited by Vermillo

So what about Kaine's heighten "others" powers? I mean did that play a factor in the outcome? If memories serve me correctly Kaine's second transformation gave him a healing factor, claws, as well as enhance all his other abilities to the point where he overpower the lobo's werewolves.

Posted by TheTrueBarryAllen

Man - Lizard got stomped.

This is saddening, looks like Kaines popularity truly did overwhelm the Lizard.

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Posted by jashro44

@vermillo said:

So what about Kaine's heighten "others" powers? I mean did that play a factor in the outcome? If memories serve me correctly Kaine's second transformation gave him a healing factor, claws, as well as enhance all his other abilities to the point where he overpower the lobo's werewolves.

I don't recall a healing factor. He did come back from the dead but I think that was a one time thing (all though who knows). I'm pretty sure the other was banned here anyways. Also I did address it in my argument. Basically there should be no reason Kaine should go other here.

Posted by Wyldsong

@jashro44 said:

@vermillo said:

So what about Kaine's heighten "others" powers? I mean did that play a factor in the outcome? If memories serve me correctly Kaine's second transformation gave him a healing factor, claws, as well as enhance all his other abilities to the point where he overpower the lobo's werewolves.

I don't recall a healing factor. He did come back from the dead but I think that was a one time thing (all though who knows). I'm pretty sure the other was banned here anyways. Also I did address it in my argument. Basically there should be no reason Kaine should go other here.

You are not forgetting anything on the healing factor front. Really, any sort of idea of a healing factor comes from the other transformation.

Beyond me playing the part of devil's advocate on my argument, I am still behind the Lizard pulling the win overall (as we discussed in the voting thread), though I do feel it isn't a stomp by any stretch of the imagination.

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