Six Developments from AVENGERS VS. X-MEN #12

and that cyclopes was right all along! if the avengers just let hope get the phoenix there wouldn't have been all of this destruction in the first place

I've enjoyed this website for a while now, but never felt the need to sign up. Now I feel like I have to comment on this whole AvX debacle.

The thing is, I knew it was going to be one-sided before I read the 1st issue. The Avengers were going to be in the right, and they were going to win, because they're the "main team" of the Marvel universe. But it just felt so forced, and when you look at it, it was the Avengers who caused the whole mess. They interfered, threw events off course, and instead of Hope gaining the Phoenix Force and returning the mutant population (as she eventually did, just as Cyclops said she would), it got knocked into 5 x-men who shouldn't have had it. Cyclops & co may have caused a lot of harm, but only because the Avengers forced them into wielding power they couldn't control, and in the end Cyclops was proved right anyway. And who's to say things couldn't have turned out better if the Avengers had just let the Phoenix 5 get on with fixing the world instead of going "no, they're DEFINITELY gonna turn evil, we've got to stop them! Everyone punch the demi-gods before they cure cancer!" It seemed like Cyclops and the others went bad because for all the good they were doing, the Avengers kept fighting them, and they were overwhelmed by their frustrations.

I hope someone calls Captain America out on this. If Cyclops is willing to accept responsibility for his part in the disaster, Cap should acknowledge that he was at fault too. The X-Men were the most qualified people on the planet to deal with the Phoenix Force; the Avengers should have never gotten themselves involved.

Anyway, sorry to join your wonderful community with an angry rant; now that I'm here, I look forward to more cheerful discussion in the future.

@DATNIGGA: Thats Marvel for ya!

@Shika1Dude: that was the first thing I thought of. Every time they are like "damn we need Dani to be stronger" they just give her Valkyrie powers for an issue. May as well give her back her mutant abilities.

@Deadgod said:

This whole AvX event have sure made both Cyclops & Cap into hypocrite idiots , all this war could have been avoided it if they have made the right decisions in the first place

No, only cap has turned into a hypocrite idiot.

So no more Utopia? Just Wolverine's school? If that's the case that's lame.

"No More..."
Ok, I admit it, I dropped a brick on that one. Something that has been a part of Marvel since before I was born is now bye-bye. Of course, everything and everyone can always come back... but that was a MOMENT.
Cyclops is a fruit loop. Sure he takes responsibility for the "crimes" but that doesn't mean he regrets them. His whole convo with Cap is trying to justify the good that came out of it. It really shows just how far gone he is. And it begs the question... how long has he actually been this way and just didn't show it?
And does anyone see any similarity between his ruby quartz cell and Magneto's plastic one? Is Cyke the new "Mags"? The new master of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants?

It's a shame but this event reminded me that I'm not really interested in the majority of Marvel comics now. The way the characters were treated in this arc was just horrendous; it's another demolition of a team and well-known heroes a la Disassembled. The creative team no longer knows how to build interesting stories without destroying years of character progression and good story lines.

Wow. This story went on waaaaaay to long for this crap. I liked the idea of there being 2 X-Men groups, and just when we were getting used to it this happens. Wolverine had a pretty eclectic group of characters running the school. It was getting interesting. Now it's going to be over flooded again, and we're going to see more bitching from fans about the amount of time that some characters get on page. I do like how Wolverine is the leader. He's deserved it. He's gotten the shit end of the stick a few times in this regard. I wondered why there was going to be 2 x-Force titles, and this answers that. Another title to throw more characters at. I'm wondering if there is going to be any characters that show up at Wolverine's door step and Logan tells them. "To little, to late. get lost."

why is it that Wanda still gets a free pass for what she did?

but anyways, how does the past x-men fit into all of this? i thought there entry would be associated with AvX but guess not...or at least not directly?

while he was right a bit about hope, lets all remember that if it wasnt for the scarlet witch, they would have just another Dark Phoenix

@mrtrickster said:

I swear to god if Jean returns......

young Jean is already coming back in All New X-Men

I guess the idea behind Hope was to make her the most unoriginal character ever. I'm guessing she'll be tagging along with Ironfist from now on.

Could it impact the This is War storyline for Punisher War Zone?

Man do I ever dislike Captain America....what a douche lol

@CrimsonAlchemist: He cheated on Jean when she was alive. And even if she wasn't, smooching in a cemetary is messed up.

@hyenascar: You're right, when a soldier/policeman kills, they are in a situation where they have to. I agree with how we have to be realistic about stuff like that. I also agree with G-Man about how super-heroes should not kill if they weren't properly sanctioned by any law enforcement. I totally am not dissin anybody that you know who had to do these tough decinsions. I admire those who join the military and know what they are getting into.

@jcbart said:

One Development from Avengers vs. X-Men:

Cyclops was right and Captain America is a hypocritical dump turnip.

What We learned is Cap is the real hypocrite. All this crap is his fault.

@G-Man said:

@hyenascar said:

Not to throw G-man under the bus cause I appreciate all of his views, but when I hear him say heroes don't kill, I think of all my friends and acquaintances who have put their life on the line, and did just that, killed, it makes me sick to hear it.

Of course you misinterpret anytime I've said that. Military, police officers, etc are licensed to kill. Some dude putting on spandex and thinks they're above the law and can save lives doesn't have that right. They don't have the right to be judge, jury and executioner. Spider-Man, Batman, etc should not kill. Captain America was military. He has killed. He had the 'right.' Punisher kills whoever he believes is guilty. What if he was wrong? I'd find it insanely hard to believe that there was never a time he invaded the 'bad guys' place, started a shoot out and never harmed an innocent bystander that happened to be nearby. But sure, go ahead and throw my name into a statement and assume you know absolutely every thought I have based one one idea.

Let me reiterate, I in no way believe that you think military, police, etc are evil people. I'm simply saying that there is a huge disassociation from certain comics like spider-man, where people like to maintain that only "evil" people kill. All of our stories for centuries have heroes kill. There has been a disconnect with spider-man, where spider-man would not have killed anyone. One of things that is taught repeatedly in the military is that, no matter who you are if someone wants to kill you they will, especially if you do not treat them in the same manor. (Also why police automatically shoot to kill when they pull out their weapon) So spider-man can down some low level thugs cause he's that much more "amazing." I get it but there would inevitably be mistakes, several times. Not to mention when he is fighting the villains who are so much more powerful than him, he would not be able take them down without going full contact, which would inevitable lead to some deaths, on a some what regular basis. That's why it makes me sick, when someone says "Heroes don't kill," because much like my friends, Spider-man wouldn't have a choice. The choice would be survive or die.

On a separate note, spider-man already is acting above the law by playing vigilante in the first point.. He has broken so many laws by now that he would be in prison for the rest of his life. So since he is already being judge and jury, as far as hunting down "bad guys". It seems a little silly to be acting like he is above breaking the laws.

@mrtrickster said:

I swear to god if Jean returns......

young Jean is already coming back in All New X-Men

I read that Jason Aaron wanted to leave the Jean appearance ambiguous (as to whether it was really her or not). Yeah, because that's what Jean fans want.. more teases and unanswered questions.

There were two developments.  
1. Cyke was right.  
2. Cap was wrong.  
It's been atrocious the way Steve Rogers has been handled. His transition from Captain America to Captain Amurika F*** Yeah. Can't wait til next summer when Cap leads the Avengers into Wakanda and stops that foreign military power from harbouring weapons of mass vibramium. F*** Yeah.   

The fact that the Phoenix Force actually did begin restoring mutants only makes Cyclops look like even more of an asshole than he already was. WHICH I DIDN'T THINK WAS POSSIBLE!:

"Hey, the Phoenix is here to help mutants. All we have to do is let it inhabit Hope! Oh, I guess I have it now. Hmmmmmm. I suppose I could use it to do exactly what I just said it would orrrrrrrrrrr, I could use it to threaten the UN, totally mess up the delicate balance of the ecosystem, wrongfully imprison anyone who disagrees with my viewpoints, scare the ever-loving s*** out of my friends and family, and kill my mentor. Basically become the exact thing the Avengers tried to warn us about. Oh, and when it all goes South on me, and someone uses the Phoenix to actually do something good, I can act all high and mighty like that was my idea the whole time. Hmmmmmm, think I'm going to go with option B. Because I'm Cyclops. And I'm a horrible, horrible person.

SUCK IT, BITCHES!"

What the hell did Magneto do? It's not like he was a member of the Phoenix Five.

@soir8: Clearly my friend you do not know the history of the Phoenix. Go back and read the Claremont's books (who created the the Phoenix Force of Marvel). Go back and read the intro of the series where the Phoenix destroys whole planets getting to earth. The Phoenix is an all consuming power of destruction. Every time you defeat it, it raises again, ask Iron Fist. If this event never ran its course Hope's eyes would've never been opened to this truth which cause her to say "No more Phoenix". Why not? She was born for this right? She can control it right? Wrong. That's not how it works. An all consuming power consumes all. I'm willing to bet that the worlds that the Phoenix destroyed getting to earth had heroes on them that would make there way to earth for vengeance. I'm not saying cap was right!! Things could have been handled differently. Every time the Phoenix made its way anywhere death and destruction followed, but its ok though because the death of million and rebirth of thousands balances itself way out, right? Next time Galatucus pose's as the next messiah of rebirth maybe we should stand down and listen to what guy has to say, regardless of the 1,000 world's he destroyed. There are no winners here.

You know  what? Eff you, Captain America! I hope Magneto kicks your ass!

They could have ended this way better than they did. Left a big, giant mess. I'm not going to read Marvel again for a while.

I never seen Thor look so pathetic compared to everyone else in my years of reading him.

The mutant race has been taken off the endangered species list. Mission accomplished.

I wonder if the part of Cyclops' supporters being in effect fugitives now is what is going to partially comprise the upcoming A+X or AvX: Consequences storylines? Because I do want to see Mags, the Phoenix Five, and others suffer for what they did. I really do.

So...Beside annoying and adding fuel to the fire what did the Avenger actually accomplish? Throughout this arc I couldn't help but wonder what would of happen if Cap actually listen to Cyclop in the first place instead of been gun hoe or actually stand down because at the conclusion it seem like everything was pointless.

I have to say I'm disappointed at how things turned out for the X-men and the Avengers. I liked the actual changes that they faced a couple years ago and this just seems to annoyingly wipe the slate clean whereas the D.C.'s New 52 felt like a fresh start. Not a fan.

@Miss_Garrick said:

Cyclops needs to pay for his crimes.

I can buy that the Phoenix force was controlling him at first, but since Scott was crossing the line BEFORE this whole mess started, things reached a point when it was not Dark Phoenix, but Cyclops all the way. He killed Xavier, he brought so much misery to the world, he ruined the X-Men more than any of their past villians ever did. He is evil, he has to go down.

Also, WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH HOPE? Has she done anything worthwhile? She's supposed to have this whole "chosen one" destiny like it was a good thing, but to me, she's coming off as a "chosen one" in a Anakin Skywalker direction which is not good at all.

Cyclops does need to pay for the deaths he caused as Dark Phoenix but he was the one in the right because he did what he needed to do, I think eventually it will show that the Avengers are the one's that caused more harm than good for what they did.

@Lamenoire said:

dear god... that ending was anticlimatic.

And Scott Summers seems like a maniac (in another issue out this week, he claimed he would do it again because thanks to him their are new mutants). This man needs a lobotomy and or is younger self to kick his ass.

I think the one that needs a kick in the ass is Captain America, Cyclops was right about Pheonix needed to kickstart mutants.

I liked AvX but it was to long IMO.

@Vermillosaid:

So...Beside annoying and adding fuel to the fire what did the Avenger actually accomplish? Throughout this arc I couldn't help but wonder what would of happen if Cap actually listen to Cyclop in the first place instead of been gun hoe or actually stand down because at the conclusion it seem like everything was pointless.

SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.
I say this because in the end Hope still became phoenix anyway and actually did what Scott said she would in the first place. Save lives. All the damages and destruction that happen was the result of Cap and Scott ego amped by the phoenix. So I believe the avenger are just as responsible for what happen as Scott is or more because they egg this whole war on.

@Yai_Inn said:

There were two developments. 1. Cyke was right. 2. Cap was wrong. It's been atrocious the way Steve Rogers has been handled. His transition from Captain America to Captain Amurika F*** Yeah. Can't wait til next summer when Cap leads the Avengers into Wakanda and stops that foreign military power from harbouring weapons of mass vibramium. F*** Yeah.

I agree with both of you, I don't think it will be that bad regarding Cap but It was the Avengers fault it got so bad. It's also why I think Cyclops was right in what he did. I look forward to what happens next and I also hope there's consequences for the Avengers as well.

great ending. like the new developments.

I seriously don't get how anyone can say Scott was right all the way from the beggining just because his messed up plan worked. It was a lucky shot. If someone in the real world had a crazy idea that was almost surely gonna end up bad, you would stop the guy. Scott was never right, even if his "plan" suceed, because as it did (thanks to writers, duh) it could as very well not suceed and mean the end of everything. Actually, it was extremely more likely not to suceed. As I said, he lucked out, big time. And now a bunch of people here are attacking Cap and defending Scott like Scott was some kind of genius for pulling something this dangerous with not real certainty that it would end like it did. Yeah, Cap didn't do as much as he could, and Scott was a total psycho in here, but blame the writers.

I mean, I'd really like to see if the ones defending Scott would do the same in RL in a parallel situation.

I used to be crazy with AvX, but after reading the " amazing" ending, I totally dislike it !!! That is the worst ending i have ever seen in my life ! I can't believe my eyes that Hope became WPOTC and destroyed Phoenix !!!! I hate her and the Scarlet freaking Witch !

@The Black Hood said:

Didn't Magneto start feeding them information and get into contact with Xavier to help the Avengers and yet he's not wanted? The Avengers just wanted an excuse to make him a criminal again despite the fact that Scarlet Witch has served zero time for her actions. Also, the biggest prick in the Marvel Universe goes to Wolverine. Constantly lied to Hope throughout the story and just couldn't wait to try to murder his former teammates. Honestly, almost every other line from him in this crossover was about how he was "gonna gut" this teammate or that one. Wolverine is the abusive drunken uncle of the Marvel Universe.

If someone ever ask me what wolverine is like in the comics I will not say-Wolverine is the abusive drunken uncle of the Marvel Universe.

@Botiste

Yes, I do know the history of the Phoenix, I've read the Phoenix saga, I've read X-Men since I was a child. Don't patronize me. I stand by my comments; The X-Men have dealt with the Phoenix in the past, and should've been trusted to deal with it in this instance. All the Avengers did was complicate things, and even if I accept the "but Hope needed to learn blah blah" crap (which I don't), it's still a horribly contrived way to make the Avengers into the good guys.

@Jorgevy: I seriously don't get how anyone can say Scott was right all the way from the beggining just because his messed up plan worked. It was a lucky shot. If someone in the real world had a crazy idea that was almost surely gonna end up bad, you would stop the guy. Scott was never right, even if his "plan" suceed, because as it did (thanks to writers, duh) it could as very well not suceed and mean the end of everything. Actually, it was extremely more likely not to suceed. As I said, he lucked out, big time. And now a bunch of people here are attacking Cap and defending Scott like Scott was some kind of genius for pulling something this dangerous with not real certainty that it would end like it did. Yeah, Cap didn't do as much as he could, and Scott was a total psycho in here, but blame the writers.

lucked out? No he didn't luck out. He KNEW from the start that the phoniex would bring change- like mutants. Sure he did go dark and kill Xavier, but maybe if the avengers wouldn't of stuck their face in the issue, the phoenix force wouldn't of hit cyke and company. Back on topic, I wouldn't say Cyclops is the hero here, but I cant see what you mean when you say his plan was "extremely more likely not to suceed"....does that mean he's wrong? No. You're saying everytime a hero is going against the odds and he's right it's because of luck. No.

I enjoyed it.

Does this mean the Phoenix is gone? This will make for an interesting Phoenix story later on. I wonder if Hope will still have her mimicing powers after this. Im very interested in seeing the relationships between the 5 now that its all over and they have turned on each other. How is Hopes relationship with new mutants and the previous lights? Why does Cable still have the TO virus? Do all the old mutants still alive get their abilities back or is it just new mutants showing up? Are the mutants that follows the Pheonix Five that later turned them selves over going to be reprimanded as well?

SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!!!

@xmentas: your post was exactly everything I was up against in this topic. He did luck out, because he wasn't sure or knew in any way that this would the end result. He was wrong, because he didn't have any control over any of this, it just happened to end up well. I seriously don't get how you can see this as some kind of "hero action". He didn't go against odds, one thing is to stand up, defend innocent people. another is to basically doom all of Earth to destruction based on a hint. Thanks to the pen gods his "plan" worked out - but admit it - in no other way would it ever have worked, the Earth would just have been consumed, like everything else, because some guy thought he knew better than everyone else who was trying to be cautious and prevent the death of everything from a huge space world destroyer.

I mean for real, if I go out and do something really crazy and end up actually making things better, I'm some kind of hero? no wonder the world is like this... I guess people really dig Machiavelli's philosophy, even when the end is not even guaranteed, and the means are suicidal

8 issues would've been perfect but I'm not complaining Cyclops does need to pay, he's a douche anyway

@sparty-dbq said:

The fact that the Phoenix Force actually did begin restoring mutants only makes Cyclops look like even more of an asshole than he already was. WHICH I DIDN'T THINK WAS POSSIBLE!:

"Hey, the Phoenix is here to help mutants. All we have to do is let it inhabit Hope! Oh, I guess I have it now. Hmmmmmm. I suppose I could use it to do exactly what I just said it would orrrrrrrrrrr, I could use it to threaten the UN, totally mess up the delicate balance of the ecosystem, wrongfully imprison anyone who disagrees with my viewpoints, scare the ever-loving s*** out of my friends and family, and kill my mentor. Basically become the exact thing the Avengers tried to warn us about. Oh, and when it all goes South on me, and someone uses the Phoenix to actually do something good, I can act all high and mighty like that was my idea the whole time. Hmmmmmm, think I'm going to go with option B. Because I'm Cyclops. And I'm a horrible, horrible person.

SUCK IT, BITCHES!"

It's like you didn't read any of the issues you're describing. Cyclops wanted the Phoenix Force to go to Hope, it was IRON MAN that fucked that up. Hell, Reed gave Cap and Iron Man a speech about how every bad thing in the event was their fault for being asshats and interfering.

The whole way through, Cyclops continually used his powers for good. They were split into five, they weren't the ones who could restore mutants, only Hope could. Three of the other four were former villains and the fourth was under the influence of one, and naturally they all ended up going dark, while Cyclops was still trying to revive dead species and feed starving children. You act like he's an asshole for trying to solve all the world's problems, and for that you just sound like a complete imbecile.

Then finally, when everyone betrays him, and he's stuck with the other four shards of the now very corrupted Phoenix Force, what else could have possibly happened?

Is Scarlet Witch an evil bitch for all the death and destruction she caused? Is Iron Man for cloning Thor and creating a prison in another dimension for his former friends? What about Hulk for declaring war on the Earth and imprisoning and torturing heroes? It's just more poorly written, out of character hero vs hero garbage.

@Botiste said:

@soir8: Clearly my friend you do not know the history of the Phoenix. Go back and read the Claremont's books (who created the the Phoenix Force of Marvel). Go back and read the intro of the series where the Phoenix destroys whole planets getting to earth. The Phoenix is an all consuming power of destruction. Every time you defeat it, it raises again, ask Iron Fist. If this event never ran its course Hope's eyes would've never been opened to this truth which cause her to say "No more Phoenix". Why not? She was born for this right? She can control it right? Wrong. That's not how it works. An all consuming power consumes all. I'm willing to bet that the worlds that the Phoenix destroyed getting to earth had heroes on them that would make there way to earth for vengeance. I'm not saying cap was right!! Things could have been handled differently. Every time the Phoenix made its way anywhere death and destruction followed, but its ok though because the death of million and rebirth of thousands balances itself way out, right? Next time Galatucus pose's as the next messiah of rebirth maybe we should stand down and listen to what guy has to say, regardless of the 1,000 world's he destroyed. There are no winners here.

Ironically, you clearly don't know the history of the Phoenix. Rachel Summers controlled the whole thing. For YEARS. She fought Galactus at one point. It didn't corrupt her, she didn't use it for evil, it was the ENTIRE Phoenix Force.

@Soir8 Well spoken. To answer your question in short, Cyclops did this for his race. Any sacrifice evolving around a racial purpose good or bad will cause discord. It gets a little sticky from there. Mutants are gene code, and not every genetic property has been a blessing to every mutant. There are not any consequences for being born a black man. (Other then stereo typical racial profiling). Marvel Now should have happened after civil war. If Malcolm X would have made the same decisions Cyclops made there would be a racial war going on to this day. I do want mutants in comics, but more than mutants I want diversity. I want to see more women, not just the warrior women, but moms like Sue Richards, older women, minority women. I want to see blacks, Asians, Indians, Mexicans, Diversity!! Every mutant leader has to be a Summers and I'm tired it. Malcolm X did not speak anymore for me then David Dukes spoke for the white population. I'm tired of Scott, Rachel, Havoc, and Cable being "special" having the say for the entire mutant race, mix it up. The X-Men all about diversity, and I want to see the diversity and comics. Thank God for the ultimate universe, and image comics. Thanks friend for letting me vent a little. I can't in the real world like this . Lol

Interesting, Marvel Comics Editor in Chief Alex Alonso feelings.

That makes sense, though as I read the scne I thought that was the moment you were going to kill Cyclops. [Laughter] His survival sees him instead put in a variation on Magneto's plastic prison where we get this final scene between him and Captain America. Obviously, Scott Summers being Scott Summers, he's not just going to take responsibility for himself but is going to take it on the chin as hard as he can. Still, do you think that he ultimately considers his part in this a victory? He did accomplish what he set out to at the start of this series, Xavier's death aside.

Alonso: It sure looks that way, doesn’t it? The big question, of course, is, what would’ve happened if the Phoenix Force had taken Hope as its host at the beginning of the story? Would Hope have been ready? I don’t think so. I think she became ready in the crucible of everything that happened in “AvX,” especially during her spiritual journey and training in Kun Lun. Everything that happened prepared her for the moment when she took in the power and was actually able to give it back to the cosmos. She was finally ready. In that sense, whatever you say about Cyclops' methods, whether you think it was him or the Phoenix Force that killed Professor X and did all those other shenanigans, the results speak for themselves. The second time around, Hope was able harness that power and use it for good – to focus that Phoenix power as a force for rebirth as opposed to destruction. And the mutant race was saved.

The problem has been for so many years that Marvel will just change things up, rather than play things out. There's not much of a plan here and next year there will be another game-changing event. All about the Avengers, too. Remember the great 'Intiative' story line? Me neither.

Why is Emma on a wanted poster? She was arrested by Daredevil and Luke Cage after she lost her power.

It was a good ending. The return of the mutants' powers, a little appearance from Jean (even if it was only a portion of her, that counts since the force is apart of her), Hope finally doing something worth while (although she doesnt need to be wearing the White suit - that's Jeans), and seeing Cyclops arrested are all great things to see. I wouldve liked a real return for Jean but at least we'll soon have the younger time-displaced Jean.