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Sex, Lies, and Geek Girls Part 1

I think the title is pretty self explanatory...

Sometimes it can be a little bit difficult being the only girl in the office; so you can only imagine how happy I was to get the chance to have some one-on-one girl talk with Animevice.com's editor in chief, Gia. Since our conversation ran a little bit long, we decided to chop it up into a few segments. Rather than strictly drawing a comparison in the major differences between Japanese and American comics; Gia and I got down to the dirty stuff as you will see...

All in all it was fun for me, and I'm sure she enjoyed it too. We just hope you will!

  


What do you guys think about the issues we touched upon? How do you feel about some of the issues we discussed?
63 Comments
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Posted by The Hottness

interesting ladies....keepin it real i see

Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau

Did I just watch 3 minutes of the "View" O_O (jus playin).

 Rape is a touchy subject so if I say anything offensive I apologize ahead of time. I agree that in American comics the issue of rape seems to be something the writer tip toes around. They drop enough hints so that the reader can clearly pick up on what has happened but very seldom do they actually come right out with it (NIghtwing being one of the exceptions). Also, from what I've seen, Manga/Anime rape isn't really "Rape" I would say. Its like fantasy rape. Let me try to clarify. Rape is brutal and ugly, there's nothing sensual or erotic about it. Yet  the way its portrayed in Manga the victim is resistant to an extent yet their facial expressions and moans give it the sense that its an enjoyable experience. That even though the character is being raped, its sex and sex feels good. So that even though this act was forced upon the character there's still some sort of pleasure to be gained. At least thats my take on it. Now granted I dont watch, nor read much Manga/Anime so I could be way off the mark on this. I'm only speaking on what I've seen.

Cool vid ladies :)


Posted by camodude

WEIRD way to start the series!? but i give you props as the only girls in the office.

Posted by Slinger

Was this video a cry for help? Should we be trying to read between the lines here?

Posted by reaper2923

To quote a friend manga and anime are cheap knock offs of good classic American comics

Posted by ARMIV

That kinda reminded me of when me and my friend talk comics/manga...
'cept he's a dude...and most of the time the topics are stuff like "Could Ichigo stand in the ring with Thor?".
Never have we discussed the differences in sensuality between the two mediums,but thanks to you two,I don't have too!
Thanks for the vid and I hope to see more.

Posted by camodude
@Gambler said:
"Did I just watch 3 minutes of the "View" O_O (jus playin).

 Rape is a touchy subject so if I say anything offensive I apologize ahead of time. I agree that in American comics the issue of rape seems to be something the writer tip toes around. They drop enough hints so that the reader can clearly pick up on what has happened but very seldom do they actually come right out with it (NIghtwing being one of the exceptions). Also, from what I've seen, Manga/Anime rape isn't really "Rape" I would say. Its like fantasy rape. Let me try to clarify. Rape is brutal and ugly, there's nothing sensual or erotic about it. Yet  the way its portrayed in Manga the victim is resistant to an extent yet their facial expressions and moans give it the sense that its an enjoyable experience. That even though the character is being raped, its sex and sex feels good. So that even though this act was forced upon the character there's still some sort of pleasure to be gained. At least thats my take on it. Now granted I dont watch, nor read much Manga/Anime so I could be way off the mark on this. I'm only speaking on what I've seen.

Cool vid ladies :)"

i still feel a little odd after watching it.
Posted by danhimself
@Gambler said:
"Did I just watch 3 minutes of the "View" O_O (jus playin).

 Rape is a touchy subject so if I say anything offensive I apologize ahead of time. I agree that in American comics the issue of rape seems to be something the writer tip toes around. They drop enough hints so that the reader can clearly pick up on what has happened but very seldom do they actually come right out with it (NIghtwing being one of the exceptions). Also, from what I've seen, Manga/Anime rape isn't really "Rape" I would say. Its like fantasy rape. Let me try to clarify. Rape is brutal and ugly, there's nothing sensual or erotic about it. Yet  the way its portrayed in Manga the victim is resistant to an extent yet their facial expressions and moans give it the sense that its an enjoyable experience. That even though the character is being raped, its sex and sex feels good. So that even though this act was forced upon the character there's still some sort of pleasure to be gained. At least thats my take on it. Now granted I dont watch, nor read much Manga/Anime so I could be way off the mark on this. I'm only speaking on what I've seen.

Cool vid ladies :)"

i can't really add anything to that ...you pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.....good job ladies
Posted by iLLituracy

Awesome talk. Invite me to the next one. I'll just sit there and look pretty and try not to get raped/killed during. :]

Posted by Decept-O

Please note what I am going to write is adult in nature.

In most American comic books/graphic novels, the subject of rape has been illustrated to be a brutal act, which it is, and whether it's because I'm an American or not, find any type of "fantasy" involving the subject, whether it's in anime/manga or any other source beyond my taste and acceptance.  That does NOT make me "uncultured', simply because I disagree how the Japanese portray the material in their books. 

To illustrate that American comics usually refer to rape as the brutal act it is, I immediately think of the scene and storyline involving Watchmen's Comedian and Sally.  Granted, the story was written by Alan Moore, a Brit, but it is an American comic.  Again, Moore uses rape, this time in the first volume of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and in a graphic manner,  Mr.Hyde essentially sodomizes the Invisible Man.  Part of the reason he did this was because the Invisible Man had been going around while invisible, and raping many young women.  There is more to it than what I am relaying, but you get the picture. 

I honestly don't understand the current anime/manga stuff.  Before anyone says anything hateful, I will say my tastes go towards the Sci-Fi stuff like Akira, Ghost In the Shell, Vampire Hunter D, Robocross, etc.  I felt these were really great, and I've only seen the animated episodes and movies, never read any of the books themselves.   These are the types of anime, etc., I would like to see and read.  

I don't think any of the "rape fantasy" themes which appear in anime/manga will ever be accepted here in the States and for good reason.  

Edited by Jamiracles

Oh nice, very interesting.

I dont think American comics tip toe around the subject of rape to avoid dealing with it, I think American comics generally deal with it responsibly in a way as to not make it a feature of entertainment like violence. Obviously violence is an essential factor to most superhero comics and to show a battle in its entirety is to acknowledge that "Yea, people beating people is horrible and bloody and painful...but its also cool." I think what American comic writers try to avoid as far as revealing too much of the act of rape is the similar notion with violence so as not to say or to come of like saying "Yea, people sexually abusing people is terrible...but look at those BEWBS!" And by showing only what need be shown to progress the plot, you don't make entertainment of a terrible thing.

My experience with not only Anime/Manga but Japanese cinema overall is that rape is SUCH a common thing. It gets annoying. The most common way to make a bad guy seem bad or to express the tragedy of a female character's journey is the use of rape. Most every Samurai film i've ever seen has (and not intentionally of course :P) involved rape in some way shape or form, most every Yakuza film i've ever seen has involved rape in some way shape or form and after just constant exposure after constant exposure of not the indication of rape but the showing of the act in its entirety, I'm forced to believe that its included in movies/anime/manga to be interpreted either as much a horrible moment of drama and abuse as well as a sort of taboo sensual moment of the film depending on the eye of the beholder. I think this because this is a country thats supposed to have one of the lowest rape percentages in the world but produces so much rape related content and is known to be very hush hush as far as sexual abuse goes.


Posted by War Killer

Vary Intresting, I've always said Manga like Mega, I'm glad learn how to say it right :)

Edited by TheBug

              As a female comic reader I sometimes feel alienated by the treatment of women in comcs ( I'm looking at you Garth Ennis). That does not mean we should spare female characters, but sometimes rape is just used for a shock effect. Its books like The Boys, in which women are treated like garbage that remind me why comics are a male dominated hobby.

              On the topic of manga this whole "rape until you like it" thing does tap into a true fantasy of some women, but its still disgusting. Not so much the actual sex, but the fact that these girls ( I won't even call them women because they don't even look legal) are little blushing dolls, desperate for affection. This is why I read American comics. Characters like Black Canary are few and far between in manga. Its just gross, and some of it borders on kiddie porn. That being said I do commend manga for presenting more homosexual relationships in their books. While there are tons of lesbians in DC, not many gay guys.

I have to wonder how Miss Gia as a young woman can read these stories in which women are so...weak.

Not all manga is sexist crap, look at AKIRA, Kai or Kia or whatever the hell her name is a strong character.
And not all U.S comics are women friendly, look at Lady Death.

Hail Otomo!

(Gambler your a cool dude but that whole "The View" comment kinda put me off.)

Posted by Jamiracles
@Gambler said:
" Did I just watch 3 minutes of the "View" O_O (jus playin).

 Rape is a touchy subject so if I say anything offensive I apologize ahead of time. I agree that in American comics the issue of rape seems to be something the writer tip toes around. They drop enough hints so that the reader can clearly pick up on what has happened but very seldom do they actually come right out with it (NIghtwing being one of the exceptions). Also, from what I've seen, Manga/Anime rape isn't really "Rape" I would say. Its like fantasy rape. Let me try to clarify. Rape is brutal and ugly, there's nothing sensual or erotic about it. Yet  the way its portrayed in Manga the victim is resistant to an extent yet their facial expressions and moans give it the sense that its an enjoyable experience. That even though the character is being raped, its sex and sex feels good. So that even though this act was forced upon the character there's still some sort of pleasure to be gained. At least thats my take on it. Now granted I dont watch, nor read much Manga/Anime so I could be way off the mark on this. I'm only speaking on what I've seen.

Cool vid ladies :) "
You've definitely got some interesting points here. From what i've seen of so many Japanese works its almost like a featured element of entertainment masked in tragic drama depending on the eye of the beholder.
Posted by EisforExtinction

Someone once told me that comic books (it can be applied to manga here too) are a very safe medium. Since the story takes place between the panels we as a reader are "safer".

I kind of disagree with this. I think the fact that some work needs to be done on the readers side makes it less constrained and therefore much less safe. Comics, in my mind, can be used to tell powerful stories like that of rape because just because the panels don't have to display blatant sexual abuse it doesn't mean the reader isn't left with that impression.

Posted by Nahero

yeah i fully agree whats they are talking about and absolutly awesome vid dispite the topic which was ok

Posted by ChromeFamily

Someone has to say it.. BABS your HOT! I can just listen to you all day.

I'm sorry what were you saying? O.o

can't wait for part 2

Posted by Press Oblivion

When's the next part going to be available? You did well to establish the social perception differences between American and Eastern Asian cultures but I'm not really clear on your views about how this topic is being presented in American comics. Looking forward to the rest of the discussion.

Posted by The Devil Tiger

Mmmmh, I think it's more like a cultural and social issue.
Let's face it, the japanese society is very concerned about face and the fact of keeping it clean. You can't tell what you're really feel if that shame your honor, your family or your country. Sure, that's changing today, but it's still largely valid at many point. Manga or many other stuff like that describe some rape and others thing like that because that's a way to exorcise many feeling of the people there.
 
I mean, what if you live your life without even share youre feeling to your Family, how do you feel yourself ? I guess pretty pi$$ed of. How many of us think once in a while about kill someone who bothering us, or to kill themselve ? I do not mean that we are all serial killer or other things like that, but the fact of dreaming, reading, or drawing, about something is a way to express some of us repressed (and inacceptable ) feeling.

And from what I've seen, the more restricted is a society, the more violently these member will express themselve in the different media that they are allowed. (Just turn on your TV if you don't believe me : it's full of violence and sex, but do we really kill or make love someone every day ? I doubt it.)



 

Edited by buttersdaman000

so japanese girls want to be raped....thats all i got out of this...........but its good to know!


oh and babs is hot

Posted by The_Martian

Nice videos, Gia and Babs. Can't wait for the next part.

Posted by rouju

First, I'd like to admit that I enjoy hentai, video or manga, just for fun and excitement (the story is outrageous and I didn't feel some blame for watching it, fantasy only, as long as there's no alien, monster or any kind of tentacle creature involves, I'm in).

Then I'm kinda wonder why did everyone think that japanese side is always ahead on this porn activity race(video game, comic, etc). I think it's cuz easier to get the product (and the market respond to it, well, marvelously) while in other culture it's so hard to find this kind of stuff. It's kinda unfair to say that the japanese is, sex crazy people, just cuz more easily to get porn material from japanese story.

Just like The Bug said, American comic also has this kinda treatment to the ladies. It's just the market didn't respond it, like I said before, marvelously.

Oh, since someone start that babs is hot, I'm in also, but I think she's cute, not hot

Posted by inferiorego

I was hoping for something funny, and I got something thought provoking.... BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABSSSSSSSSSS! How dare you...

Staff
Posted by .Mistress Redhead.
@Gambler said:
"Did I just watch 3 minutes of the "View" O_O (jus playin).

 Rape is a touchy subject so if I say anything offensive I apologize ahead of time. I agree that in American comics the issue of rape seems to be something the writer tip toes around. They drop enough hints so that the reader can clearly pick up on what has happened but very seldom do they actually come right out with it (NIghtwing being one of the exceptions). Also, from what I've seen, Manga/Anime rape isn't really "Rape" I would say. Its like fantasy rape. Let me try to clarify. Rape is brutal and ugly, there's nothing sensual or erotic about it. Yet  the way its portrayed in Manga the victim is resistant to an extent yet their facial expressions and moans give it the sense that its an enjoyable experience. That even though the character is being raped, its sex and sex feels good. So that even though this act was forced upon the character there's still some sort of pleasure to be gained. At least thats my take on it. Now granted I dont watch, nor read much Manga/Anime so I could be way off the mark on this. I'm only speaking on what I've seen.

Cool vid ladies :)"
bloody well said G, that has always been my issue with Manga and anime...
Posted by xerox_kitty

I've got to wait to get home to watch this :(

Re: Rape.  I find it disturbing the amount of female yaoi fans who think that terms like "twincest" and "rape" are acceptable.  They wouldn't like it if that was forced on them.

Posted by ARMIV
@xerox-kitty said:
" I've got to wait to get home to watch this :(Re: Rape.  I find it disturbing the amount of female yaoi fans who think that terms like "twincest" and "rape" are acceptable.  They wouldn't like it if that was forced on them. "

Indeed!

Posted by The Devil Tiger
@buttersdaman000 said:
"so japanese girls want to be raped....thats all i got out of this...........but its good to know!oh and babs is hot"

Huh ? 
Creepy...
Posted by Final Arrow

Well first I'd like to say HEY GIA, welcome across to comic vine.


Now I am a large anime/ manga fan as most of you know and I think most people know my stance on "rape" and hentai in general. But that does not mean I don't understand where people who enjoy it come from and Gambler got it bang on the mark as how I see it and I think most people do as well. Its like not many people know the Green Arrow was raped by  Shadow along time ago, as DC seem to cover it up alot and the fact that he also has a child from this.  Im not going to go into details as I can feel that side of me building into a uber rant about something that will take this way off topic. Great videos girls hope to see more.
Posted by TheBug

great talk

Edited by No_Name_

I wanted to thank everyone for their input on a very touchy subject. It isn't often that we have "real talk" here at comicvine, so when we do it can be fun. It was nice for me to sit down with Gia; she's really intelligent and I felt like I could learn a lot from her. Looking over all the posts in response to the video, I noticed that
@Gambler said:

. That even though the character is being raped, its sex and sex feels good. So that even though this act was forced upon the character there's still some sort of pleasure to be gained. At least thats my take on it. Now granted I dont watch, nor read much Manga/Anime so I could be way off the mark on this. I'm only speaking on what I've seen.
This is a subject that always confused me, so I'm glad you touched upon it in your response. In my mind, rape is rape; rape is not sex and therefore it is impossible to be considered an "enjoyable experience." That is where there is a divergence in how Americans (culturally) view rape compared to the way it is seen in Japan. In comics, it is always tragic/traumatic experience that a character will suffer to overcome. In Japan, it seems they utilize it to instigate their female characters to submit to dominance or to expound upon their repressed sexual emotions.

@The Devil Tiger said:
" Mmmmh, I think it's more like a cultural and social issue.

...Exactly. Rape in comics is perceived in a completely different way in America than it is in Japan for that reason.

@TheBug said:
"

              As a female comic reader I sometimes feel alienated by the treatment of women in comcs ( I'm looking at you Garth Ennis). That does not mean we should spare female characters, but sometimes rape is just used for a shock effect. Its books like The Boys, in which women are treated like garbage that remind me why comics are a male dominated hobby.

              On the topic of manga this whole "rape until you like it" thing does tap into a true fantasy of some women, but its still disgusting.

"
I'm glad you said this, because I have to review "Herogasm" soon and I have something very special as far as treatment goes, for that comic. Degrading women is something that has never been appealing, intriguing, or attractive to me. Maybe it's because I am one; I don't know. I also wondered though, since rape is prevalent (like Gia said) in comics that are targeted toward both boys as well as girls in Japan; how the Japanese comic industry could justify printing rape panels in comics that are targeted toward women. I never understood how the female audience could be receptive to that kind of "entertainment." Id like to consider myself a strong woman. Sometimes a little bit too opinionated. I like my female comic book characters to be strong too; (Oracle, Wonder Woman...) I'm not crazy about weak and helpless female comic characters; so when rape is used in comics, it should be a reality that a character has to overcome to make them a stronger person...because that is what rape is; isn't it?

I was hesitant at first after talking about this subject...but I am glad that I was able to receive such a positive response. :)


Posted by No_Name_

And no one picked up on my video screw up! I said Infinite Crisis instead of Identity Crisis! I can't believe myself! That just goes to show, DC has too many "Crisis'" :P

Edited by inferiorego
@Babs: I caught the screw-up but didn't want to jump down your throat because I'm already insecure enough as is, and making such accusations would make me feel like a hypocrite.
Staff
Posted by No_Name_
@Press Oblivion said:
" When's the next part going to be available? You did well to establish the social perception differences between American and Eastern Asian cultures but I'm not really clear on your views about how this topic is being presented in American comics. Looking forward to the rest of the discussion. "
Hopefully very soon! Gia is nice enough to do the video editing, so as soon as she is ready, it'll go up! Maybe sometime today or tomorrow. :)
Edited by No_Name_
@inferiorego: Yeah, I caught it after it had been posted. It was no big deal though. I still blame DC for having so many Crisis'; ha!
Posted by Rudy

Wow that is very interesting about gia let me guess greek mythology the titan gia right?

Posted by Final Arrow

It was great to see GIa over here and Vine and Vice dealing with a interesting subject as I said I hope to see more!

Posted by inferiorego
@Babs: Because I can't pinpoint an individual to blame for all the Crisis, I blame you because you made the video. Or I blame Gia.
Staff
Posted by Final Arrow
@inferiorego said:
" @Babs: Because I can't pinpoint an individual to blame for all the Crisis, I blame you because you made the video. Or I blame Gia. "
Don't blame Gia!!! she is a manga girl it is not her fault...I blame comic readers! looks at his picture...COMIC READER.
Posted by inferiorego
@Final Arrow said:
" @inferiorego said:
" @Babs: Because I can't pinpoint an individual to blame for all the Crisis, I blame you because you made the video. Or I blame Gia. "
Don't blame Gia!!! she is a manga girl it is not her fault...I blame comic readers! looks at his picture...COMIC READER.
"
I'm not reading the comic, I'm either sleeping or dead. And also, I only read hate filled comics, like Mr Stuffins!
Staff
Posted by Final Arrow
@inferiorego said:
" @Final Arrow said:
" @inferiorego said:
" @Babs: Because I can't pinpoint an individual to blame for all the Crisis, I blame you because you made the video. Or I blame Gia. "
Don't blame Gia!!! she is a manga girl it is not her fault...I blame comic readers! looks at his picture...COMIC READER.
"
I'm not reading the comic, I'm either sleeping or dead. And also, I only read hate filled comics, like Mr Stuffins! "
Your not helping the problem only feeding it!!!
Posted by inferiorego
@Final Arrow said:
" @inferiorego said:
" @Final Arrow said:
" @inferiorego said:
" @Babs: Because I can't pinpoint an individual to blame for all the Crisis, I blame you because you made the video. Or I blame Gia. "
Don't blame Gia!!! she is a manga girl it is not her fault...I blame comic readers! looks at his picture...COMIC READER.
"
I'm not reading the comic, I'm either sleeping or dead. And also, I only read hate filled comics, like Mr Stuffins! "
Your not helping the problem only feeding it!!!
"
Feeding hate.... or feeding death?
Staff
Edited by SirSparkington

I've noticed that rape (or any form of sexual abuse) is often used in American comics as a way to make something happen or to propel the male character (see Women in Refrigerators) into another plot point. Granted, there are comics in which rape is taken seriously but I still think rape/sexual Abuse is used too often as a cheap plot point.

I also wonder how many people take rape seriously in comics. I ask this because so many female characters are heavily sexualized (giant boobs, skimpy costumes etc). Again, there are female who sexualized but also strong characters. However there is still that percentage of readers who are "OMG BEWBS!!" and don't understand the seriousness of what may have happened.

Just my two cents.

Posted by Final Arrow
@inferiorego said:
" @Final Arrow said:
" @inferiorego said:
" @Final Arrow said:
" @inferiorego said:
" @Babs: Because I can't pinpoint an individual to blame for all the Crisis, I blame you because you made the video. Or I blame Gia. "
Don't blame Gia!!! she is a manga girl it is not her fault...I blame comic readers! looks at his picture...COMIC READER.
"
I'm not reading the comic, I'm either sleeping or dead. And also, I only read hate filled comics, like Mr Stuffins! "
Your not helping the problem only feeding it!!!
"
Feeding hate.... or feeding death? "
Fear leads to Anger.  Anger leads to Hate.  Hate leads to suffering leads to comics, comics lead to Crisis, Crisis leads to the dark side.
Edited by No_Name_
@SirSparkington: I just want to thank you for zeroing in on the "Women in Refrigerators" issue. I was waiting for someone to bring that up, so props to you! :)

Posted by gia
@Decept-O: You might be surprised-- I mention "yaoi" lightly, a sub-genre of girls' manga created by and for girls primarily (and read primarily by girls in the US), and a veeeeeery significant amount of it features various levels of coersion and/or rape. I touch on this a bit more later, but it ties in very heavily to the concept I introduced in this video, of the victim being forced to admit to and enjoy the thing they secretly want.

I can understand a distaste for gratuitous rape, and I think it's important that American comics do portray the act as violent. That said...I'm generally all for relatively harmless methods of expressing and exploring one's fantasies like this. I actually believe that yaoi is as popular with women as it is in part BECAUSE it gives them an opportunity to explore such "rape fantasies" without feeling like they're condoning the act against women. (Before you suggest that they're condoning an act against men, the men in yaoi are pretty clearly fantasy, just like the women in hentai.)

It's a topic that's come up a lot over on Vice recently due to the recent ban of rape games in Japan due to the efforts of a group called Equality Now. Most of us seem to agree that while we find the material pretty gross, a ban is going to be ineffectual in the long run (why doesn't EN focus on *real* victims in Japan, instead of fictional ones?) Lacking any proof or evidence that such material leads someone to real-life actions, it's effectively an attempt to legislate what you can fantasize about-- not entirely unlike the banning of "lolicon" (underage) material. Again, I find the stuff repulsive personally, generally speaking, but the idea of "thought crimes" in 1984 keeps popping up in my head.
Posted by King Saturn
he he he... thats pretty cool
Posted by The Devil Tiger

@Babs:
But you are a strong women ! And I defy anyone to doubt of that !
As the pleasure some japanese women can take of that kind of entertainement, I thinl it can be assimilated at the one some people take in with being whipped, or tied or degraded. I'm not fond nor condemning the SM, but don't forget the japanese aren't the only people to have weird sex in this planet....

Posted by Decept-O

Regarding such matters, I'm personally for expressions of fantasy, including ones of a sexual nature, don't get me wrong.  I don't want to delve too much into my own personal experiences or tastes, but I do believe in having a healthy sexual life, and it is up to each person how he or she wants to express it, provided it doesn't cause harm to someone.

This all just seems a bit much for anyone in the anime/manga crowd to read, and I am expressing my distaste and concerns because so many young people are into these books now, and it is perplexing.   I know some of these books are intended for mature readers, but let's face it, kids get ahold of these books.   This is where my main concern exists and I failed to properly mention it. 

Posted by Vortex13

Rape is used in entertainment industry's a lot, usually to make the women suffer and therefor make it more "dramatic". The reason for this is because they somehow think that this brutal act of hate, or rage, validates a woman's strength if she overcomes it; or that it makes whatever the hero does ok because he or she is fighting against a monster. Honestly I don't think that this is right or valid, it doesn't matter how strong you are, if you're raped or molested it will be damaging to a degree that a beating won't be able to compare. The idea that women somehow find rape pleasurable is offensive to me as someone who has a friend that was raped. I really hate how rape is used to simply further a story or make it seem like women are made stronger afterwords when they overcome, that is not always untrue but women can be very strong without having to suffer. It's like SirSparkington said it's the women in refrigerators concept.

Posted by No_Name_
@The Devil Tiger: I think that there is a difference between kinky sex and rape, though.
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