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Review: Red Robin #17, Guess Who's Back?

I'm not just talking about Bruce Wayne.

This is it. This is the moment many have been waiting for. The return of a certain Bat-character that has been missing from the pages of comic books for too long. Just a note, if you're not already aware who this character is and haven't heard, there will be a spoiler mentioned. 
 

The Good 

Cassandra Cain is back. You might recall a few issues back when Tim first showed his list of people he was keeping tabs on. Cassandra Cain was listed as being somewhere in Hong Kong. As you begin reading the first few pages, you will be in anticipation of what her reaction will be. She decided to leave Gotham after Bruce Wayne died.  
 
The story between Red Robin and Lynx continues and Tim makes a decision that could have repercussions on his status in Gotham. You might also have noticed the Batman, Inc logo on the cover. The Return of Bruce Wayne has been all over the place and hampered by scheduling issues but we get a nice bit of closure here. 
 

The Bad 

The biggest complaint is there's not enough of Cassandra. It's to be expected. It's not like after all this time we'd find out everything she's been up to in one single issue. Her return is being set up. 
 
I've never been completely crazy about Lynx. I'm still waiting to see how her character plays out. There is some potential but I'm skeptical to see if I'll be won over. 
 
There was scene between Tim and Bruce on a rooftop talking. Bruce has disabled any rooftop security cameras and they both remove their masks to talk to each other. I don't see the point in this other than from an artistic point it'd be easier to show their expressions. To me it just felt awkward. 
 

The Verdict - 4/5 

Red Robin has taken a slight deviation since Fabian Nicieza took over from Chirs Yost and since his mission of finding Bruce has ended. Seeing Tim evolve into the next stage of his crime fighting career is an interesting journey. He is getting used to his Red Robin guise and needs to figure out where his place is and what his tactics will be. Nicieza is continuing to bring in past characters and threads as we bare witness to the great hero Tim could become. With this issue, it felt like there was three different parts that made the flow feel a little off. I look forward to the issue each month and I'm curious to see how the series will tie into Batman, Inc.    
48 Comments
Posted by crimsonspider89

Betting Cassandra will join Tim in some arcs with her old costume under a new name. 

Posted by Crimson Eagle

Finally she's back!!!!!!

Posted by harleyquinnhawkgirl

YAY I am soooooo happy that Cassandra Cain is back! She is my favorite super hero ever and I hope she comes back regularly!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by thatlad

Glad to hear Cassandra's back. 
Was really gutted when Yost left this book as he did a great job of making it stand out as not just another bat-book.  
I'm a little concerned that Nicieza's turning this into his old Robin book 2.0 with bringing it back to Gotham and reintroducing the old character's from his previous run. However, it has been fun so I'm enjoying the ride

Posted by No_Name_

Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible.

Posted by longbowhunter

I love the fact that Tim is taking up residence in the theater in Crime Alley. Really good seeing Bruce and Tim back together too. Wonder what role Cassandra Cain will play in Batman Inc. and future Red Robin issues?
Posted by ackbarr

This book was already sold out at my LCS when I went for my weekly lunch visit. Now I know why.

Posted by Baddamdog

Haha omg I was just about to write 'Babs won't be happy with this'!!

Edited by FadeToBlackBolt
@Babs said:

"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "


Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian?
 
EDIT: Just read it, I actually liked Cassie in it, and I loved the scene with Bruce and Tim hugging :)
Posted by OnlyWonderBoy

I thought the story was good. I'm a little behind on Red Robin, but I figured this would be a decent place to start reading monthly since it was an epilogue to the last story arc. I'm don't really know the Lynx character but I wasn't confused or anything. Also, having not having read any Cassandra Cain stuff, I'm interested to hear why Babs disapproved of this so much on the podcast.

Posted by Mrs. Tim Drake

AMAZING ISSUE!  i think the Bruce and Tim interaction was well done. when I was reading some of the Road Home books i was wondering when Tim and Bruce would have this moment, since Bruce and Tim have more of these type of moments then Bruce and Dick.  
Can;t wait for Batman Inc. to start and Batman: the Return to come out. i can't wait to see Damian and Bruce together.

Posted by FabianNicieza
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Babs said:
"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "
Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. 
I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... 
-- fabian
Posted by danhimself
@FabianNicieza said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Babs said:
"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "
Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... -- fabian "
ummm we're going to need to see some credentials...because I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds it hard to believe that Fabian Nicienza joined Comic Vine today just to diss Babs
Edited by Dipic
@FabianNicieza said:

" @FadeToBlackBolt said:

" @Babs said:

"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "

Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... -- fabian "
Oh snap. Now that was a burn... but seriously, a very valid statement. No offense, Babs, but I've gotta agree with the man... it's a big peeve of mine when someone slams something but doesn't provide any reasoning for it. I'm sure you have yours but it'd be nice to  hear them. 
 
@danhimself said:   

ummm we're going to need to see some credentials...because I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds it hard to believe that Fabian Nicienza joined Comic Vine today just to diss Babs " 

I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen Fabian post quite a few times on CBR's forums. Regardless - real deal or not - he makes a valid point. 
 
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/member.php?u=3386 
 http://forums.comicbookresources.com/search.php?searchid=5266423)
Posted by foxglove

While this was a weak reintroduction for one of my favorite characters, there was a glimmer of hope.  "Black Robin." I'm okay with this. 

Edited by FadeToBlackBolt
@Dipic said:

" @FabianNicieza said:

" @FadeToBlackBolt said:

" @Babs said:

"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "
Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... -- fabian "
Oh snap. Now that was a burn... but seriously, a very valid statement. No offense, Babs, but I've gotta agree with the man... it's a big peeve of mine when someone slams something but doesn't provide any reasoning for it. I'm sure you have yours but it'd be nice to  hear them. 
 
@danhimself said:   

ummm we're going to need to see some credentials...because I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds it hard to believe that Fabian Nicienza joined Comic Vine today just to diss Babs " 

I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen Fabian post quite a few times on CBR's forums. Regardless, his point is valid. "
I think it's sad if it is the real deal, because a lot of people have posted how much they've enjoyed it, so no offence to Babs, but her opinion is in the minority, and hopefully wont attract as much attention.
Posted by danhimself
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Dipic said:

" @FabianNicieza said:

" @FadeToBlackBolt said:

" @Babs said:

"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "
Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... -- fabian "
Oh snap. Now that was a burn... but seriously, a very valid statement. No offense, Babs, but I've gotta agree with the man... it's a big peeve of mine when someone slams something but doesn't provide any reasoning for it. I'm sure you have yours but it'd be nice to  hear them. 
 
@danhimself said:   

ummm we're going to need to see some credentials...because I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds it hard to believe that Fabian Nicienza joined Comic Vine today just to diss Babs " 

I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen Fabian post quite a few times on CBR's forums. Regardless, his point is valid. "
I think it's sad if it is the real deal, because a lot of people have posted how much they've enjoyed it, so no offence to Babs, but her opinion is in the minority, and hopefully wont attract as much attention. "
there are tons of people on the Vine who constantly bash things without giving a reason...maybe that was the only thing that upset her about the issue...maybe "Fabian" needs to realize that he can't please everyone and that some people's opinions are going to upset him and that he as the artist needs to take the higher road and not try to bad mouth people for not liking his work
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@danhimself said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Dipic said:

" @FabianNicieza said:

" @FadeToBlackBolt said:

" @Babs said:

"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "
Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... -- fabian "
Oh snap. Now that was a burn... but seriously, a very valid statement. No offense, Babs, but I've gotta agree with the man... it's a big peeve of mine when someone slams something but doesn't provide any reasoning for it. I'm sure you have yours but it'd be nice to  hear them. 
 
@danhimself said:   

ummm we're going to need to see some credentials...because I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds it hard to believe that Fabian Nicienza joined Comic Vine today just to diss Babs " 

I wouldn't doubt it. I've seen Fabian post quite a few times on CBR's forums. Regardless, his point is valid. "
I think it's sad if it is the real deal, because a lot of people have posted how much they've enjoyed it, so no offence to Babs, but her opinion is in the minority, and hopefully wont attract as much attention. "
there are tons of people on the Vine who constantly bash things without giving a reason...maybe that was the only thing that upset her about the issue...maybe "Fabian" needs to realize that he can't please everyone and that some people's opinions are going to upset him and that he as the artist needs to take the higher road and not try to bad mouth people for not liking his work "
That's a fair call too, and I wasn't having a go at Babs, she's awesome, I was merely saying that too often artists have a habit of focusing on the negative. I do the same thing, though obviously I'm not getting paid (yet ;])
Posted by danhimself
@Dipic:  I don't have a CBR membership and don't really feel like signing up there but without seeing that page I can say that anyone can get on the internet and say they're someone famous...I for instance could tell you that I'm Dan Slott...guess what I'm not but you have no way to prove that I am or that I'm not
 
@FadeToBlackBolt:   that's a valid point as well but the thing is that he is getting paid and if that is the real Fabian which I don't think that it is then he should be professional and ignore anything that offends him or if he feels that he absolutely needs to say something then he should have sent a pm
Edited by Dipic
@danhimself said:

" @Dipic:  I don't have a CBR membership and don't really feel like signing up there but without seeing that page I can say that anyone can get on the internet and say they're someone famous...I for instance could tell you that I'm Dan Slott...guess what I'm not but you have no way to prove that I am or that I'm not   

It doesn't matter whether it's really Fabien or not. The point is still valid. Criticism without any actual... well, critique, is pretty weak. And if we're going to hold others to higher standards, well, Sara is a professional and does this - critiquing comic books (among other things) - as a living so we could say "well, she should know better/be above that" as well, right?
 
That said, I can't say I completely disagree with you either. I think both are fair points. I just know as a reader these things irk me.
 
(As an aside, I really doubt an impersonator would have joined CBR in 2004 and accumulated 166 posts, interacting with fans and playing a charade that entire time while clearly having insider knowledge. That, and the likelihood that that same "impersonator" would sign up to another comic website, to defend the real guy's work, using the same signature, is FAR less likely then it actually being an impersonator... but hey, for all you know, I could be lying about all those details as you don't have, or intend to register a CBR account. I don't mean to come off sarcastic or antagonistic; just making a point! lol)
Edited by No_Name_
@FabianNicieza said:

" @FadeToBlackBolt said:

" @Babs said:
"Um, this was a terrible first appearance for Cassie. Terrible. "
Ouch, want some ice for that burn, Fabian? "
No, but I could use some ice for my Diet Coke. I've been doing this a very long time, so lazy slams that are tossed out with zero critical commentary, explanation or rationale slide by like water off a duck... -- fabian "
Sorry Fabian, wasn't trying to offend, and I wasn't criticizing your work, either, I was simply stating that this was (in my opinion) a terrible way for her to make her first appearance. I'd been waiting for an appearance from Cass for a VERY long time. I felt the way her departure from the DCU was treated was as though she was disregarded completely. There's been no follow up on her until now, and I really would have appreciated a more profound and insightful look into her departure. How does she feel? What is she thinking? How is she dealing with the fact that the man who JUST agreed to adopt her, has just died?
 
If the only father figure I ever had agreed to adopt me and then passed away, I would be completely distraught. I would be feeling so much...
 
Cassandra lost the only man she ever considered a father. Before Bruce, she was abused, manipulated and treated like a mere weapon. He embraced her and treated her like a human being. I just would rather not be teased by DC. If Tim knew where she was, why didn't we see her before? It could have been better intertwined. Seemed it came out of nowhere.  She's my favorite character, and I guess I really would have appreciated in depth first appearance after such a long hiatus.
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau
@Babs said:
" Seemed it came out of nowhere.  She's my favorite character, and I guess I really would have appreciated in depth first appearance. "
Exxxxactly ;). Seemed thrown together at the least minute. "Oh by the way, Bruce and Cass had it all worked out before hand that she would leave the mantle, and oh, Tim's known her exact location all this time and they've been in constant communication." Surprise. Weak.
Posted by crimsonspider89

Just a way to let people know that she will be involved soon. Wish she would have had more time to explore those issues you named but with what happened there is a chance of  her joining the current arc. Just wonder, what she will be called.

Posted by No_Name_
@Gambler said:
" @Babs said:
" Seemed it came out of nowhere.  She's my favorite character, and I guess I really would have appreciated in depth first appearance. "
Exxxxactly ;). Seemed thrown together at the least minute. "Oh by the way, Bruce and Cass had it all worked out before hand that she would leave the mantle, and oh, Tim's known her exact location all this time and they've been in constant communication." Surprise. Weak. "
That's pretty much how I felt too. And the bit about Tim getting faster or Cassie being slower? I don't think someone that has proven they can dodge bullets, would be slower than someone who has never demonstrated a similar feat.  
 

Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@Babs said:
" @Gambler said:
" @Babs said:
" Seemed it came out of nowhere.  She's my favorite character, and I guess I really would have appreciated in depth first appearance. "
Exxxxactly ;). Seemed thrown together at the least minute. "Oh by the way, Bruce and Cass had it all worked out before hand that she would leave the mantle, and oh, Tim's known her exact location all this time and they've been in constant communication." Surprise. Weak. "
That's pretty much how I felt too. And the bit about Tim getting faster or Cassie being slower? I don't think someone that has proven they can dodge bullets, would be slower than someone who has never demonstrated a similar feat.  
 

"
That was only Tim joking around though, I don't think we were meant to take that seriously :)
Posted by No_Name_
@crimsonspider89 said:
" Just a way to let people know that she will be involved soon. Wish she would have had more time to explore those issues you named but with what happened there is a chance of  her joining the current arc. Just wonder, what she will be called. "
What her new name is going to be is the least of my worries. Batman INC? Let me guess. Chinese Batgirl. Guess who's gonna be in charge of Asia? Cassie. 
 
@FadeToBlackBolt:
I'm not so sure about that.
Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau
@Babs:    "Did I get faster or did you get slower? Or maybe I threw my voice..." easy b!tch, you're Tim  Drake not Batman.  
 
@FadeToBlackBolt: Thing is though, he either A: Did dodge her or B: Threw his voice and schooled her like a novice.
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@Babs: @Gambler: Throwing his voice isn't too bad. Cassie, not to disparage her, is a combatant first and foremost, not so much a tricky type, so an unusual tactic like that might have thrown her. Especially since she was just taking on a bunch of dull goons, she probably figured it was just another one of them. I agree it wasn't too well done, but it could have been worse. Had he beaten her in H2H or something, I'd be up in arms.
Posted by Mercy_
@Gambler
@Babs:    "Did I get faster or did you get slower? Or maybe I threw my voice..." easy b!tch, you're Tim  Drake not Batman.  
 
@FadeToBlackBolt: Thing is though, he either A: Did dodge her or B: Threw his voice and schooled her like a novice.
Either of those options piss me off and neither should have happened.
Moderator
Posted by crimsonspider89

Probably not so simple but it is bringing her back into the fold. I would rather her get a solo and they explore her even more. I mean, look at how awesome X-23's solo is. And yeah, thinking Tim just threw his voice. 

Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@The Dark Huntress: Now you know how I feel about the Bat/Catman thing :P
Posted by No_Name_
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Babs: @Gambler: Throwing his voice isn't too bad. Cassie, not to disparage her, is a combatant first and foremost, not so much a tricky type, so an unusual tactic like that might have thrown her. Especially since she was just taking on a bunch of dull goons, she probably figured it was just another one of them. I agree it wasn't too well done, but it could have been worse. Had he beaten her in H2H or something, I'd be up in arms. "
Wait, what? Ha. 
 
Cassandra learned to listen, read lips, and pay close attention to movements. Body language and being one with the environment around her was her first language. THAT is why she is a skilled combatant. 
 
Also, it's enough that they made a fool out of Lady Shiva in Red Robin. Now they try to school her daughter too? None of this makes Tim Drake seem cool.
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@Babs said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @Babs: @Gambler: Throwing his voice isn't too bad. Cassie, not to disparage her, is a combatant first and foremost, not so much a tricky type, so an unusual tactic like that might have thrown her. Especially since she was just taking on a bunch of dull goons, she probably figured it was just another one of them. I agree it wasn't too well done, but it could have been worse. Had he beaten her in H2H or something, I'd be up in arms. "
Wait, what? Ha.   Cassandra learned to listen, read lips, and pay close attention to movements. Body language and being one with the environment around her was her first language. THAT is why she is a skilled combatant.   Also, it's enough that they made a fool out of Lady Shiva in Red Robin. Now they try to school her daughter too? None of this makes Tim Drake seem cool. "
Shrugs, please don't make me see faults in DC too, Babs, I just swore off Marvel forever this morning lol.
 So I'm being extra lenient with the company that I love. 
 
Shiva and Cass are jobbing way too much though.
Posted by No_Name_
@crimsonspider89 said:
" Probably not so simple but it is bringing her back into the fold. I would rather her get a solo and they explore her even more. I mean, look at how awesome X-23's solo is. And yeah, thinking Tim just threw his voice.  "
Why didn't she get a solo before? If Tim knew she was in Hong Kong the entire time, why was there no mention?
Posted by crimsonspider89

No idea. That kinda confuses me as well. Was a nice surprise to see her for the first panels. Wish this issue would have been about her and Drake, then next issue be the return of Bruce. I have no idea. One of those weird decisions that makes you WTF?

Posted by No_Name_
@Dipic said:
" @danhimself said:

" @Dipic:  I don't have a CBR membership and don't really feel like signing up there but without seeing that page I can say that anyone can get on the internet and say they're someone famous...I for instance could tell you that I'm Dan Slott...guess what I'm not but you have no way to prove that I am or that I'm not   

It doesn't matter whether it's really Fabien or not. The point is still valid. Criticism without any actual... well, critique, is pretty weak. And if we're going to hold others to higher standards, well, Sara is a professional and does this - critiquing comic books (among other things) - as a living so we could say "well, she should know better/be above that" as well, right?
In my defense, I had a pretty busy day today, but maybe shouldn't have written anything at all- at least until I had time to delve into my full argument. 
 
Then again, a big part of me didn't want to have that conversation, that's how disappointed I was as a fan. This is my favorite character, and I was waiting for so long and my expectations were so high. When I wrote that comment, I had just read it and I was disappointed. I knew why I was disappointed, but I honestly just didn't feel like writing it out. Partially because I figured that everyone on Comic Vine who would read it would say something like "Here she goes, getting all fangirl on us. Cassie can do no wrong" and I would probably sound like a Storm/Hulk/______ fan in the battle threads. ;) 
 
However, I should have elaborated, and I did.
Posted by Mercy_
@FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @The Dark Huntress: Now you know how I feel about the Bat/Catman thing :P "
Pfft. Whatever. xP
Moderator
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@The Dark Huntress said:
" @FadeToBlackBolt said:
" @The Dark Huntress: Now you know how I feel about the Bat/Catman thing :P "
Pfft. Whatever. xP "
Haha, that's nothing compared to; 
 
Sentry vs WWH
Sentry vs Ultron
Sentry vs ANYONE DURING SIEGE
 
I actually couldn't sleep the night I read Siege #4 I was that mad; the adrenaline kept me up all night.
Posted by Mercy_
@FadeToBlackBolt: Should I be glad that I haven't read it?
Moderator
Posted by FadeToBlackBolt
@The Dark Huntress:
It's the worst comic book ever written. I absolutely loathe it. There is nothing good about it. I cannot deter you enough from it.
Posted by NightFang

Cassandra And Tim setting in a tree, lol.

Posted by cbishop

Lynx has always needed a better costume, and something besides gang affilliations.  There was clearly more to her than what was being shown (it was implied, anyway), in her original appearances.  She could easily be Tim's Catwoman.  She just needs the right writer.

Posted by frogjitsu

I'm disapointed to hear that Cassandra's first appearance in like forever isn't all we hoped it could have been, but I still can't wait to read this issue.  I've been without Cassie for to long, I need my fix! :D

Posted by e12101988

just because of this issue, i've started collecting the the other issues of red robin.. amazing.. this is like one of the best comics that is out now, i can't believe that i didnt pick this series up sooner..
 
cass looked amazing in this issue, i wonder if she'll get her own ongoing.. or perhaps she might end up as bat bruce's partner..

Posted by thatlad
@cbishop said:
" Lynx has always needed a better costume, and something besides gang affilliations.  There was clearly more to her than what was being shown (it was implied, anyway), in her original appearances.  She could easily be Tim's Catwoman.  She just needs the right writer. "
I don't see why Tim needs a catwoman, that was Batman's thing, what's the point in showing the same stories with different masks? 
Posted by cbishop
@thatlad said:
"I don't see why Tim needs a catwoman, that was Batman's thing, what's the point in showing the same stories with different masks?  "

I'm not saying that he does - just acknowledging that the potential is there.  Batman/Catwoman, Spidey/Black Cat, Spirit/P'gell, Dick Tracy/ Breathless Mahoney... an alluring siren for the male hero is a pretty basic plot device.  Tim's been flirting with the line between hero and anti-hero - a female villain that could potentially tempt him further over the line might be just right for his story.  It doesn't have to be done, but it wouldn't necessarily be bad.
Posted by Dark Walker

It was mentioned somewhere before that Tim knew where Cassandra was, so seeing her in this issue wasn't really out of nowhere.  Though I think it was mentioned in either last issue or the Road Home RR one shot, but it was mentioned before.  Tim has grown substantially as a crime fighter, he knows Cass and for him to be able to fool her by throwing his voice isn't that hard to believe, especially when she was just fighting a bunch of thugs.  Hopefully we see her in some kind of bat family costume, she did keep her old one that Tim gave her.  I loved the scenes between Bruce and Tim, and the last panel with them swinging off together was great.  Hopefully Tim will be joining Bruce on occasion, I'd love to see more of Bruce, Tim and Cass together.   With as much as Tim's grown the three of them would be the best Dynamic Trio ever, better then when Dick was Robin and Barbara was Batgirl.  Dick can have Damian and Stephanie, the rookie Batman with the rookie Robin and Batgirl. 

Posted by TimDrakeRedRobin

I loved this book. and lynx is a perfect catwoman type for Tim to have. She is seductive, alluring, and even though tim has a bad feeling, she tempts him still. yet he would never let her make him truely faulter from being a  hero. Plus she is hot xD for a drawing anyway lol. but seriously. i like her more than Tam (i hate the constant damsel in distress thing) and the match is fresher than Tim and Stephanie, so im all for it. as for Tim tricking Cass, lets not forget that Tim has been through quite a bit since cass left, and Tim has gotten pretty dam good. Cass on the other hand seemed to just be taking down street thugs, maybe mobsters or gang lords in her time away (but we really dont know), while Tim is fighting super assassins left and right. Maybe she is just outta practice. I think when Tim tries he is even more stealthy than Dick (although i havn't read all of the new Batman and Robin books, but the ones i have seen weren't impressive in stealth). it is clear that Tim either dodged her batarang or threw his voice and schooled her, and i think i like the voice one better =] So dont be a hater (all you cassie fans that think it wouldnt or shouldnt of happened) and give Tim some credit, he is getting to be a dam good hero =D