Off My Mind: Why We Need to Know DC's Full 'New 52' History

Just retcon the 5-year timeline out of existence.

Please.

I think that the 1st mistake was how they pretty much kept the Batman and Green Lantern histories while over hauling everything else..like those 2 are untouchable or something.

It just makes a mess of things to have Damian Wayne exist already,to already retcon Tim being Robin,to have Dick sub for Bruce(I'm guessing R.I.P happened),to have Barbara be Batgirl..get crippled..become Oracle..start the B.O.P. and become Batgirl again(in such a short time period),to have the War of Lights,Brighest Day and Blackest Night happen.

It would be easier on them if they had re booted ALL the titles. But for some reason they left most of the Batman and Green Lantern universes untouched and now they are screwed!

As a reader I love unanswered questions. It means there are more stories to tell. In any event, what's being suggested is entirely impractical. It will take years to reveal the full origins of these characters properly, not even accounting for the great non-origin stories that will be told about them in the meantime.

Just sit back and enjoy the ride. It's a piece of fiction. No one's writing it to make you angry and if it does, you should probably read something else to occupy your free time.

I'm surprised they didn't wipe the slate clean. I'm enjoying certain books in the new 52 but, it would have made far more sense to start continuity over completely instead of trying to shoehorn events and history into 5 years. They could have spent the first few months or even the first year getting history settled and then jumped ahead with an established universe. Then they can fill in the blanks as they go along right now it really feels as if not everyone is on the same page.

I'm just reading back issues until they get this worked out.

Works fine for me - not like I'm going to run out of reading material.

Out of all the comics I read from the New 52 I noticed Wonder Woman is one you don't need any background to her past comics. That probably the reason way she's getting new reader who are actually liking the story. Plus her past history got to the point it really made no sense. I still think she benefited the most in the New 52.

not knowing what has or has not happened can be confusing did superman fight doomsday did the sinestro corps war happen what about infinite crisis or identity crisis

I'm sure I'll get flamed for being a "grammar nazi" or something dumb like that but, "But why did he decided to wear read on when going back to his Nightwing persona?", I've been noticing a lot of mistakes in the articles lately and I usually hold my tongue on spelling and grammar mistakes here since for whatever reason people seem to be ok with it. But this is atrocious, seriously Mr."Editor in Chief"...

Totally agreed I was pissed off to know Tim was never Robin but always Red Robin. He was such a good Robin it was his who had an ongoing Robin series. Mr.Freezes my #1 favorite Batman villain was a villain you felt foe even though he was doing bad. Now he's basically stalker of a woman who was never his wife. This is one of the major points of the 52 I don't like.

@arnoldoaad said:

Its just a very simple principle, You need to build the foundations first

there are 3 things that are killing the New 52 and those are: Indecision, bad choices and the 5 year jump

First they say that Tim Drake was robin, then he wasnt, then Teen Titans existed in the past then it didnt, both ideas have their merits, their pros and cons but its obvious thatthey didnt knew which one to choose in the first place

then they try to innovate their characters, there is nothing wrong with that, but they do it by giving them to writers who obviously dont have the capacity to reinvent them, Like JT Krul reinventing Captain Atom as a Doctor Manhattan rip-off, and then Green Arrow as steve jobs with a bow, or choose Liefeld to reinvent not 1 but 4 of your properties, pretty much wrecking them all, and thats not even touching Catwoman, she is just no longer a character worthy of an ongoing

the relaunch is a great idea on paper, it gives the chance to create the best version possible of the characters that DC has to offer, but it didnt work on many cases

and finally the 5 year timeline is not only annoying but suffocating, I understand why DC did it, they are not thinking on next year or 2, they were thinking of the next 10-20 years, but there was just no worst way to do this, the things that it did to Batmans timeline just choose how little planing there was behind this, Zero Month was a complete disaster for Batman

DC did a mistake with the relaunch on many cases, and there is just no way to correct it in an organic way.

I believe the best titles in the relaunch were those that just really had conscious and consistent idea of not only where they were going to but where they were coming from. and DC needs to realize that without that firm ground underneath their feet, what they are planning to do wont work at all.

I agree with your 3 points but I believe Captain Atom came before Dr Manhattan although i also dont have a problem with him basically being the Dr Manhattan of the DCU. While the Steve jobs comment was funny it is basically the same as Steve Jobs in a Bat suit.

On a side note have you been reading GL or know how sales have been going since the new lantern took over? It seems like GL and Batman did the best starting off bc they had that history still in line but i know i dropped the GL series as soon as Hal and Sinestro were

@mpierce2690 said:

@Spidermac17 said:

Totally Agreed, the idea of having four robins within five years or so seems a little ridiculous too...

But then who get's cut? That's where the problem lies. I'd have cut either Drake or Damian, but Drake has a huge following and unless you kick out Morrison's run (and you know how DC loves Morrison) you can't cut Damian.

@jacksonvillewriter said:

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

I've been saying accelerated growth to keep myself from crying at night.

Personally, I'd love a four-to-six issue Secret Origin for all of the major characters. Nothing too in-depth, just more of a recap of the last five years that will show the highlights and that shouldn't be too hard. Release them like the Before Watchmen books. Not a perfect solution, but a simple and acceptable one.

Honestly i would have cut Jason. He was so short lived before his death that i think they should have cut that down to Jason only being a robin for 2 or 3 months. Dick would still have the longest Robin experience with Tim behind him. I think the big thing with the Batman family and the GL universe is that when the whole New 52 started 5 years was supposedly when super heroes came in to public view. Justice league started roughly 6 years ago now and their were already rumors of all these heroes being in existence and being vigilantes. So although the public knew of Batman 56 years ago he had been around for longer then that giving him slightly more time for the existence of Damien and the training of the Robins. I would say the big issue is that Dick was taken in by Bruce when he was around 12 and started working on his own around 17. That's 5 years just right there.

Yeah a mini series for the major character would be nice to get a recap. I wouldnt mind something like that for some of the Marvel characters as well

They should make like a New 52 comic companion.

Looking at the whole 4 Robins in 5 years, I'm beginning to feel that Damian is soon to be the longest standing Robin under the New 52. Lets forget Bruce's age inconsistency for a minute and examine only the safest assumptions. 1) Bruce was Batman for some period of time before Dick came along. Leaving four years and change at the most. 2) Removing Tim from the equation, leaving 3 Robins, it's likely that there was some space between every Robin. a) While I initially assumed lengthy time had passed between Jason and Damian allowing time to grieve, this can be cut significantly shorter with the bomb that Talia dropped on Bruce, forcing Bruce to go against his own reservations and accept Damian faster than he would've liked. b) Unless I missed it, there's nothing that says a specific time passed between Dick and Jason. So let's assign this unknown time period "the change" I mentioned from earlier, leaving approximately 4 years with 3 Robins. 3) Dick appears to have matured under Bruce's wing, so that's a two year minimum. I have problems going any shorter that that. That leaves us with 2 remaining years. 4) Once again, unless I missed it, Jason's tenure could be way shorter. There's nothing that says the murder couldn't have taken place in the early months. That leaves a year and a half, or even more, for Bruce to accept Damian as his own. a) Even if Dick was Robin for 3 years, which is more likely, that still leaves room for Damian to be Robin for up to almost a year. Having said that, and adding on the first year of the New 52, Damian has to have been Robin for no more than 2 and a half years plus, and no less that a year and a half. Dick was most likely Robin for no less than 2 years but no more than 3. Finally, Jason was likely only Robin for an undetermined, though by process of elimination, a very short time. Is this concise, sound, or logical to anyone else?

i'm not a fan big fan of the change of Mr Freeze or Catwoman for that matter. It is what it is :P

i have a problem with this article, i feel like it should have came out last year when i would have gave a half of shit about this fanboy rant. everybody and their mamas know about the continuity issues going on at DC, that the whole DCnU was done at the drop of a hat, and they have editorial problems that need to be fixed. tell me some new shit instead of reharshing the old ones. tell me something positive(there's alot)about the new 52 instead of some bullshit.

I say start all the way over. From zero and do a year long "Year One" event for each of the biggest titles like Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Justice League and Teen Titans. Cancel all the extra batman and superman titles and have triple sized issues every month of Action Comics to cover Supergirl, Superboy, Legion Of Super Heroes and others in the Superman side, have triple sized issues of detective comics for Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman and other from the Batman side. Finish up with 6 issue limited series for everything else and only publish when you have a good story to tell. Instant profits.

I have a huge problem with DC's handling of Tim Drake. They took him from being one of my favorite DC characters of all time and then throw him in the garbage. My biggest issue with the timeline in New 52 in general is that even DC doesn't seem to know how to handle it. They are constantly tripping over themselves, and yes it matters. I can handle not worrying about continuity for certain things like mini-series, alternate universe, etc. A good example on Marvel's side is something like Avenging Spider-Man or Avengers Assemble...I can not really worry about anything taking place in those as they are mostly stand alone.

Also, did DC issue some sort of mandate that Harley must be sans-clothing in almost all appearances in New 52?

@jacksonvillewriter: And haven't they made Damian 12 now?

As plenty of others have stated, I am not a fan of the 5 year timeline. I think they could have left it more ominous like 'in the past" or something like that. I am not, however, one of the people that absolutely hates the New 52 continuity problems. It bothers me whenever I sit down and think about it but when I am reading some of the stories I don't care. It would be ideal to have continuity that fits in perfectly and all that but in reality it is tough to do. When there are so many different variables to take into account then continuity ends up strangling the writer.

The other elephant in the Bat-Family room is the question, "Is Catwoman still a mommy?"

Continuity IS important. If it wasn't, why use Superman AT ALL? Why not just make up 52 new characters? The reason is because SUper is familiar. Batman is familiar. This familiarity is due to decades of stories. To be excited about the latest Joker arc is to relate back to previous Joker arcs and go "wonder what he's gonna do THIS time?" See if continuity wasn't important they could have just made a new villian: the Jester. "Jester comes to Gotham and kills Batman's whole family" That would sound utterly stupid because "Who is this Jester guy and why should I be nervous about him taking out the Bat Fam?". The answer - when you know the Joker is gunning for them - is "Oh s***! Joker ALMOST killed so and so and so and so last time he came to town so..." You have to have that back story for the current and future stories to have teeth.

As a new reader of DC i have no problems whatsoever, I don't care very much about timelines and continuity. If u like the story then don't break your head over other things.

For the entire New 52, I've been living under the mantra of "Forget Continuity, and just enjoy the stories" and it's been going good so far, however, my biggest gripe is the five year limitation they set on themselves, it's basically DC shooting themselves in the foot, to have THIS many events take place in only five years. Batman having Four sidekicks?? Since the Blackest Night is mentioned in Green Lantern, it's obviously has happened, when?? two years ago? one year ago? Nightwing mentioned he took over for Batman, does that mean Bruce "died"? which meant Final Crisis happened? I find it hard to believe that this much happened in such a short period of time.  
 
I'm also upset that DC also feels the need to retcon their stories already, such as the whole Red Robin fiasco, it's just insulting the readers who READ that he was Red Robin in TT#1 and Batman #1. And like the article says, it seems like ti was done for no real reason. 
 
I love DC, and I like the New 52. However, it seems kind of rushed, and it's like DC is just making this up as they go along.

To be honest they zero issues of each series just made this problem worse. When they didn't reveal everyone's past you could just assume it was the same as the old universe, just accelerated in time, but now they're throwing in new history's, retconning their retcon left and right, and it's resulted in a great big mess. One I'll point to is Green Lantern, which since I'm not a follower they may have addressed this without my knowledge, but seeing as very little changed with them. Does that mean is 5-6 years hal became the green lantern, had his own adventures, Got two backups in Guy and John, coast city was destroyed (and how did that happen did that happen did superman die in this universe too?), he went crazy, killed the core, kyle became the sole green lantern (as seen in new guardians #1), had his own adventures, coast city was rebuilt, hal came back, the corps was reborn, and all the Geoff Johns stuff happened? I mean say what you want about marvel at least I know everything that happened to these characters prior to where we are now.

We're probably better off not knowing.

Forget "why WE need to know," I'd be happy if they just knew what the history was. My biggest problem with the New 52 is that it is so clear that they're just making it up as they go. Forget how Batman has only been around for five years but his son is ten and had his father's cowl when he was a toddler. Forget that Lobdell said on this very site that Tim Drake's father was killed and now he's alive. Just think about the stuff that they try to keep canon, if you think about it for more than a few minutes you realize none of it works. Just to throw out an example, Kyle Rayner broke up with Natu because of Jade. But Jade no longer exist. So why are they still broken up? Or with Brightest Day, Swamp Thing came back to life because of Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, the Hawks, and Firestorm. But Firestorm just came into existence. So how did this happen? I have no problem with a reboot, but they went into this without thinking of really anything.

It just gets worse and worse when you think about it... like... if Blackest Night did happen.... DEAD HEROES played a big part of that. So that means some of our current heroes have been dead within the last 5 years?

Taking the titles individually, on their own, they (well, a few) are still pretty good, so people who don't really care about continuity meshing well won't have problems.

I also noticed that some of the conflict is specifically with Grant Morrison titles. Its like DC didn't want to step on his toes, he goes on and does whatever he wants, regardless if it fits.

Moreover... whats with this Pandora crap... its now past the 1 year mark and still nothing has come of it. Flashpoint is practically long forgotten. As a long time reader, I was hoping for some kind of tie-up or explanation... but nope. I think DC is just hoping everyone forgot the whole new 52 was a result of Flashpoint.

@Impala said:

As a new reader of DC i have no problems whatsoever, I don't care very much about timelines and continuity. If u like the story then don't break your head over other things.

Agreed 100%

Good article.

Wonder Woman is at the top of my list on this one. Where does her story take place juxtaposed to the JLA. Why the change in Wonder Girls origin?

I love DC. the New 52 is sure a mixed bag though. I love what they did with Aquaman and the LOSH. I can't even read a Superman family title and Batman is just a mess. I am reading less DC since this started which i guess is good for my pocketbook. I admit it could be that i have been reading so long i dont like the change. I do hope the 52 brings new readers...

@Dud317 said:

Looking at the whole 4 Robins in 5 years, I'm beginning to feel that Damian is soon to be the longest standing Robin under the New 52. Lets forget Bruce's age inconsistency for a minute and examine only the safest assumptions. 1) Bruce was Batman for some period of time before Dick came along. Leaving four years and change at the most. 2) Removing Tim from the equation, leaving 3 Robins, it's likely that there was some space between every Robin. a) While I initially assumed lengthy time had passed between Jason and Damian allowing time to grieve, this can be cut significantly shorter with the bomb that Talia dropped on Bruce, forcing Bruce to go against his own reservations and accept Damian faster than he would've liked. b) Unless I missed it, there's nothing that says a specific time passed between Dick and Jason. So let's assign this unknown time period "the change" I mentioned from earlier, leaving approximately 4 years with 3 Robins. 3) Dick appears to have matured under Bruce's wing, so that's a two year minimum. I have problems going any shorter that that. That leaves us with 2 remaining years. 4) Once again, unless I missed it, Jason's tenure could be way shorter. There's nothing that says the murder couldn't have taken place in the early months. That leaves a year and a half, or even more, for Bruce to accept Damian as his own. a) Even if Dick was Robin for 3 years, which is more likely, that still leaves room for Damian to be Robin for up to almost a year. Having said that, and adding on the first year of the New 52, Damian has to have been Robin for no more than 2 and a half years plus, and no less that a year and a half. Dick was most likely Robin for no less than 2 years but no more than 3. Finally, Jason was likely only Robin for an undetermined, though by process of elimination, a very short time. Is this concise, sound, or logical to anyone else?

It COULD work when you isolate just a Robins timeline... the problem is it still doesn't fit. Not when they established there was NO Batman '6 years ago', and when you try to piece it back together with: Bruce meeting Talia, Damian is 10 years old, Final Crisis, Batman RIP, Battle for the Cowl, Blackest Night, Return of Bruce Wayne and Batman Inc.

The problem is if you retcon even just one of those stories, it impacts all the others. You can't have Batman Inc, then say Final Crisis and Batman RIP never happened. Its just all messed up really.

It CAN still be fixed by just making up new stories though. Like when Dick mentioned he once wore the cowl, they make up a whole new tale of how that came to be that isn't a result of Final Crisis/Battle for the Cowl.

I don't read the New 52 except for Batman amd Green Lantern. It has become convoulted and I just don't like the direction that it has gone. I beleive if they had better writers and hunkerd down on some of their flagship titles with good writing and art things could have gotten better. I keep hearing that wonder woman is good but I am sorry. I have not enjoyed the new direction. It was the same with spider man. When they dissolved the wedding with MJ. It just felt they didn't want the character to grow up.

@FoxxFireArt said:

I really don't care about any new origin for Mr. Freeze other than what Paul Dini did in BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES.

What this man said. I've spent time after time ranting about what Snyder did to Freeze in the annual. I love the rest of what he's done thus far - but not this. As for the remainder of the feeling behind the need for information - I agree. I do however believe DC/Time Warner has a plan which has long been in place to explain more of it/correct problems we see now. The root of that belief lies within the character interaction between Pandora and the Phantom Stranger however it would not surprise me if Bruce was also able to gain a sense of 'actuality' before it is all said and done.

I agree we need to know the full history of the New 52 now. I mean, look at the work DC did after the first Crisis. They made SURE they tried to explore the full history of all its characters even as new ones came. But the problem they have now with the New 52 is theyt expect us to understand what the heck's going on, yet we know nada to the full extent. I mean, at least in Action Comics, Grant Morrison has gone out of his way to want to explain some of the things Clark did early on in his career as Superman and what led him to become the hero he is. So, DC, please, just give us a compendum about the New 52's history before we all go nuts. And try to stick to some of the classic ideas yo uhad besides just attemtping to be Marvel 2.0.

I've been saying this for a while now and I'll continue saying it until DC fixes the glaring mistakes they've made... DC has no idea what they're doing!...they had no framework in place prior to the reboot...all they knew is that they wanted to reboot and that they had some "cool" ideas and that was all they needed....for something as big as the idea of the New 52 they should have sat down for YEARS and went over every single plot point with a fine toothed comb....there should have been a unshakeable prior to the first issues timeline set up before the reboot happened and they should have had at least 5 years of stories mapped out just to do whatever they could to avoid this current situation....we're only a year in and there has already been numerous retcons...that's just sloppy

AND ANOTHER THING... what G-Man said about it not being old reader friendly is completely true....it's painfully obvious that they did not care about old readers at all....there has been nothing done with this reboot to appeal to us the people who have supported their company for years and decades prior to the reboot...we've had characters whose origins have been completely altered to the point of being unrecognizable for apparently no reason at all...characters who working extremely well prior to the reboot like Green Arrow are now suffering in sales and poor writing....some huge characters have been completely erased and despite what they're telling us it's become apparent that the characters are just plain hated by some of the editorial staff...Manapul has tried numerous times to be allowed to use Wally West and each time has been shot down and told he wasn't allowed to use the character despite from what we can tell that no other writer is using him or has plans for him...same goes for Donna Troy, Cassandra Cain, and Stephanie Brown....fans have been screaming for these characters to return and all we've heard is Didio saying that they can't reintroduce all the characters at once but it's ok for Vibe to get an ongoing????

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sigh /rant over

For me, not knowing every single detail of each characters past makes it more exciting. It's fun to wonder what may or may not be revealed, and what may or may not be incorporated from previous cannon. I'm a long time DC reader and I have personally found much of the new 52 to be very, very enjoyable.

@jacksonvillewriter: Great Scott!!

Dc universe had always changed since 1938. The 1938 Superman had super evolved Kryptonians and Kryptonians had powers even on Krypton. Superman started with more believable power levels and initially could not fly. After COIE, it was dc policy to reboot or retcon or revamp more often and we saw many reboots of properties like the Doom Patrol. New 52 changes are nothing new and dc policy has not really changed and history can be changed at any time for a good story so just forget about the history that is always changing every month. DC comics are now becoming more like super hero tv shows and every new series or relaunch is usually a reboot. The best assumption is that none of old stories actually happened. In the year 2020, just assume that none of the stories from 2010 to 2019 actually happened and just move on to better stories every year. I think dc should just reboot or relaunch every year in January to attract new customers every year.

@Sammo21: I agree with you in regards to Tim Drake. I'm actually at the point where I hope he is offed at the end of Death of the Famly, if only so that this bastardization of the character ends. At least we can go back and read the last 20+ years of stories with Tim Drake done right.

Yes ! Been screaming this for a while

@Zeeguy91: What's worse, now he's a gerontophile! (look it up) The animated series gave him the origin we all knew and loved him for, and now it's gone!

@mpierce2690 said:

Personally, I'd love a four-to-six issue Secret Origin for all of the major characters. Nothing too in-depth, just more of a recap of the last five years that will show the highlights and that shouldn't be too hard. Release them like the Before Watchmen books. Not a perfect solution, but a simple and acceptable one.

I completely agree, been thinking it for a while now. The Zero Issues, despite bland covers and continuity issues, seemed like a pretty big success. It got people, at least from what I personally saw, picking up more titles than just their monthlies. There were quite a few Zeros that even had me dying for more (most notably Johns' Aquaman), so I say let's just do some Secret Origins.

what is harleys new 52 origin anyone?

I just ignore this cluster**** of a timeline until they work it out

@Doomsday65: Difference is, Wonder Woman still acts mature and compassionate. Same way she was before the New 52. After OMD, Spidey regressed to acting like a 15-year-old.

They screwed themselves by giving the "5 year time frame." I haven't kept up on many new 52 titles, just the main bat-family - really wish Tim got his own title, but that's a argument for another time. It just doesn't work having 4 wards( 3 Robins, 1 Red Robin) in a five year span. They could have left out the exact amount of time that Bruce has served as Batman, let fans speculate and reveal it later on in the series when they have a concrete plan of attack instead of this half-assed BS!

How are the writers supposed to provide the full history all at once when they're in fact making the history issue-by-issue (as they did before)? It was supposed to be a refresh, right? Yeah, it probably would have been better if Geoff Johns would have just orchestrated a grand DC-wide retcon, rather than letting Scott Lobdell make any decisions. I can't argue with that.

However, comics continuity has never made any sense so why should it start now? So Death of Superman didn't happen in this universe. Do we care? We don't have to lose our minds about it. It was an important story for what it did to the industry, but it wasn't exactly a great story in and of itself.

Are we going to flip out when references to Christopher Nolan's Bat universe aren't included in future DC movies? What makes comic books different? Must it always be a continuous chain that makes sense? If it is, how come it was just as confusing and screwed up back when DC launched Zero Hour back in the 90's, or for any of the Crisis nonsense that followed?

All I can say is don't over-think, guys. I know it's a fun exercise...that is, until it isn't. Do you ever wonder what happened to this gun-toting Batman? I mean WTF! How come this was brushed under the carpet so easily! Why aren't we outraged?

Could it be that we allowed someone to come in and rewrite the origin another ten times and we were eventually ok with it? Relax, people. Relax.

@Reignmaker: Actually, according to Swamp Thing #1, the Death of Superman did still happen apparently. Maybe not the way it originally did, but still. Oh, and I completely agree with everything you just said.

@jacksonvillewriter said:

@Spidermac17: Not to mention the total time paradox that is Damian Wayne. How can Batman have a 10 year old son with the daughter of a villain if he's only been Batman for six or seven years?

This is why I am happy I have decided to buy into Morrison's Batman Inc., finish his storyline and then pretty much avoid the New 52.

Much like how G-Man says he likes to think that some stories still happened. I like to think of Batman's story asbeing pretty much the same. I, in my own mind, ignore the 5 year concept. Once Morrison is done telling his Batman team-up, unless DC picks up on it afterwards, I am out of DC for a good while.

@Arkhamc1tizen said:

what is harleys new 52 origin anyone?

She was still a shrink at Arkham. Fell in love with Joker. Helped him escape. He pushed her in the chemical vat. She survived and now her skin is white (no make-up) and her hair is multi-colored. She's also insane just like him. All this is shown in Suicide Squad #6 and #7.