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Off My Mind: Why the New Batwing is a Great Idea

"He's a new character but you may have seen him before."

It's rare that secrets are able to be kept when it comes to comic book characters. Recently it was revealed that Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray would be taking over BATWING. They also announced they had plans to replace David Zavimbe as Batwing with someone else. There was immediate concern over the fate of David and some outcry over why this change was needed. The fact is, the change was necessary and it will be fun and exciting. (Note: there will be spoilers below for BATWING #19).

David Zavimbe as Batwing made his debut in BATMAN INCORPORATED, Volume 1 #5. He was recruited, in a sense, by Batman to become part of Batman Inc. What this really meant was Batman saw something in him. He saw the burning passion to right the wrongs in his country. Batman wasn't trying to insert his beliefs or ideals upon another nation but felt with his money and resources, he could help develop another fighting force for good. Giving David the tools he needed to become Batwing was his way to try to help rid the word of evil.

David as Batwing didn't quite work on two fronts. As mentioned in BATWING #19, David just didn't feel right being part of Batman Inc. The bat-symbol wasn't who he was. In short, he didn't quite fit into the Bat-mythos. This isn't to say he wants to give up his fight. He still strongly feels the need to dedicate himself to doing all he can. He just doesn't feel doing it as Batwing is the answer.

The reality of it is, this is for the best. David is a great character, one that shouldn't simply disappear. He deserves to be something more than just another Bat-character. He had no ties to Batman or Gotham City so it never really made sense for him to be part of the 'family.' In order to involve him (and the title) in Night of the Owls, the story had to come up with a reason for him to be in Gotham despite wanting to focus on the troubles in his own nation.

The other fact is despite having fans, the series wasn't doing too great in sales. Again, the reason was David didn't really have a strong connection to Batman and the others in Gotham. When the interactions did come up, it felt a little forced. By bringing in a new Batwing with a stronger connection to Gotham and Batman, David is still able to fight his battles but on his own terms.

In BATWING #19, we get a glimpse at who the new Batwing will be. It turns out Lucius Fox's son, Luke Fox, will be joining the Bat-Family in a big way. Who is Luke Fox? It might not be official but we may have seen Luke Fox previously in Batman Beyond, as Lucius Fox Jr. This goes along with their description of him being "a new character but [we] may have seen him before."

While Gray and Palmiotti may not want to confirm or deny it is the same character from the animated series, it makes sense that they could be, even if the Batman Beyond Universe isn't necessarily 100% guaranteed to be the future of BATMAN.

Luke Fox is a MMA fighter. He's been doing it for four years at this point. That gives him a certain level of training that would allow him to stand a chance in Batman's Family. A new suit has been developed, ironically enough by Lucius Fox. The level of tech contained in the suit is beyond anything that Batman himself wears. It almost feels as if it's a predecessor to the familiar suit Terry McGinnis later wears.

The fact that Batman is bringing in Lucius Fox's son is a huge risk. This is what gives the story a nice new twist. Lucius is not aware of Batman's true identity. We would think he would have to have some suspicions especially due to the fact he's a brilliant man. But it could be that Bruce Wayne puts on a great act.

The future?

We're seeing Batman become more and more dependent on the tech developed by Fox and Wayne Tech. Fox doesn't approve of his son fighting and would clearly be completely against Luke becoming a costumed crime fighter, especially after what happened to Batman's own son.

Hopefully we haven't seen the last of David Zavimbe. Luke Fox adds a new element to the Bat-Family. It will be fascinating to see his fighting style combined with the tech of the new Batwing suit. It may not be a situation everyone would approve of but this opens the door to some very intriguing stories. I can't remember the last time I've been this curious and interested in a 'new' character. Let's just hope he survives long enough for us to see what he's fully capable of.

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Edited by KnightofSteel

It seems like the original idea (a Batman in Africa) for this book just wasn't working, it was time for a change or cancellation. Luckily it didn't get cancelled, so here we are. Funny how some people are already negative on this new direction when Luke Fox has so far only appeared (clearly) on one panel so far. Give it a chance. The costume is rad, have some fun.

Edited by fodigg

@captain13 said:

@fodigg said:

@captain13: I don't agree with that use of "token", but I do feel it's somewhat problematic that DC nixed the one notable (as in, promoted with its own series) black Bat character and replaced him with another black bat character in the same mantle that has no relation to or similarity to the old one. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the only important thing about the Batwing mantle is that the character is black any more than other legacy mantles are determined by race (Alan Scott to Hal Jordan to Guy Gardner to Kyle Rayner comes to mind as they had nothing connecting them), but it's potentially problematic that they couldn't come up with another mantle for young Fox and instead relegate him to the "official promoted" slot. And even if they did give him his own mantle, we can only have one leading black bat character at a time apparently. That annoys me.

Caveats:

  • Of course, if we had more black characters or more support for existing black characters (*cough*Cyborg*cough*), this wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't be so exceptional (as in rare) to have a black leading character or black bat-character. (Yeah, you could mention Nightrunner, but when did we see him last? We've seen the new black Dark Ranger more than him. And we haven't seen the black Azrael since the reboot!)
  • If they actually follow through on the implication that Zavimbe will stay active and give him his own standalone mantle, then the net result could be two strong characters who are black, with out of Batman's shadow (whereas "Lucious/Luke Fox" is a name known to casual Batman fans and makes sense there). Unfortunately, I have doubts that we'll see this and even if we do, it will probably be a background event and I don't expect him to have his own series. If they do turn around and launch a new series starring Zavimbe in a new mantle I will change my tune and label this whole thing as a brilliant move.

Again, I'm not against "Batman Beyond Today" title starring Luke Fox, but I don't like benching a great character like Zavimbe this way and hijacking his mantle. Especially if it was hijacked just because they want to promote that mantle as "Batwing, the ONE notable black Batman", because heavens forbid we have two. I guess the "rule of three" for team books translates as "rule of two" for related titles.

I agree that having a Black character come in simply to replace the previous one--as seen on the Walking Dead--smacks of wrong, but I don't think that this was a similar situation. What you're talking about has to do with team books. DC caters to an American market that often has difficulty relating to non-American characters. While, Batwing started as a critically successful book, his international nature and weak ties to the batfamily probably didn't help his sales with the hardcore batfans who care about people close to Bruce. David had to be replaced to give the title another shot in the arm. And to be honest, I prefer that they replace David with another Black character so that the diversity of the line isn't hurt. In sum, I'm happy that is still a Black character in the Batfam even if it isn't David, who was headed for cancellation. And I'm willing to give Luke a chance--especially since Palmiotti is writing him. That said, the way David was gotten rid of undercut his character and could offend his fanbase. I guess we should be happy that he wasn't fridged himself and that he has a happy ending.

So I'm cool with Batwing. What I am sour about is DC barely using or doing anything with Cyborg--a founder of the Justice League. He's been in that role for two years and has no plotlines, no villains, no love interest, and no mythos. I mean, come on! I would pay so much mney for a Cyborg solo. I already buy multiple copies of the issues of Justice League featuring Cyborg prominently on the Justice League. He has a ton of potential and DC is using him has Batman's PC and the team's bus. DC has plenty of Black characters. I don't care about numbers. I care about development, which is something 99% of Black characters lack. Thank God for Batwing and Miles Morales.

Well, I think that you're correct it's different within the Batwing title, but on cross-overs and team books like JLI and Batman Inc., it's a similar situation to Walking Dead (TV). And that's unfortunate. Also, I understand the desire to see a more related character in the Batsuit, and I wouldn't necessarily want them to make a white Batwing, but it burns me to see Zavimbe get the boot. I think they should have let him stay Batwing and given a new name/title to Luke Fox. I'm sure I'll feel better once I get to know this new character, but for now he's simply not the character that made me love this title, and it hasn't been long enough for me to want to see a legacy character in that mantle. (And I say that as someone who loves legacy characters.)

Agreed that it's criminal that Cyborg isn't getting "Justice League" support even though he was the big roster change for the JL in the new 52. And it's ridiculous that they don't invest, like, at all in their black characters. Which is not to say I love all black superheroes, there are some I don't care about—Falcon, Mister Terrific, Firestorm—but come onman, where is my Static title, my Cyborg title, my John Stewart title? Where did books like Black Panther, Blade, and War Machine go? Heck, I'd take Rocket or Hardware at this point.

EDIT: Oh gods, what have I done? Storm fans, don't kill me!

Posted by dngn4774

So what happens to David? We have Luke Fox now but unless David gets more cameos in Batman Inc. he's character will be erased from continuity. Does he create a new identity for himself and continue working with batman inc. or does he just fade into obscurity?

Edited by wisesonAC
Edited by The_Tree
Online
Edited by thejman250

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose
Edited by The_Tree

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@the_tree said:

@miss_garrick said:

How many kids does Lucius have? I'm losing track.

I count 3.

Luke Fox, Tam Fox, and Tim Fox.

I think I read somewhere that in the New 52, Luke is the only one.

I'll be pissed if that's true. I don't give a s### about Tim Fox, but Tam was completely awesome in Red Robin.

Online
Edited by DMC

oh Batwing, though based on a one-time (ish) character from back in the day, I still think this character and his solo book was a TERRIBLE idea. Why are they still trying? And can't they change the name already?

Now the new suit and selling it as the Batman Beyond archetype is very cool, but why this kid?

@jphugo15 said:

this kinda makes bats seem like an idiot.

introducing a friend's son into the bat family almost immediately after losing his own son. wut.

agreed

DC's trying so hard to establish an original black superhero into the Bat-Universe. But is it really necessary? Is this just diversity for the sake of diversity?

Is it because Batman needs his own "Steel"? At least when he was introduced it was in a major story arc.

Edited by KASPERCOLE

Changing the character behind the mask will not increase readership. Why did DC have to give Zavimbe the boot? Eighteen issues to build a new character with potential in an unexplored area of the DC universe (Africa) just to flush it down the toilet and start anew.

Edited by DMC

@immortal777 said:

I don't get it why doesn't Batman wear the suit himself?

Bat's is known to where a different type of suit for a certain situation from time to time. But I don't see him wearing it regularly.

Edited by Perfect 10

apparently im the only one who read batman incorporated volume one. the whole point of batman inc is coordinated all of the batman like heroes AROUND THE WORLD (not just gotham) into a united force. so david, being the batman of africa fits in just fine. he doesnt have to be friends with any of the "bat family" or have relation to gotham, that isnt the point. what was cool about batwing (as a bat title but as a book period) was it taking place outside of america where we can see something outside of the mundane. i find it interesting that people dont have any problems with knight and squire or knightrunner and are asking for series for these people even though they too live outside of america/gotham but they dont like batwing or africa. guess my calendar is wrong and its 1813

Posted by Perfect 10

@blackarmor: i'd like to add we traded in a man for a boy; a pro for an amateur. i love teen/young heroes but mostly in a team book besides that i already got nightwing (which sucks), red hood and red robin. luke fox is just beyond redundant. you really do have to look outside the big two for some diversity (not just in characters but in story)

Posted by Mega_spidey01

luke fox seems like an interesting story. i'll check it out.

Edited by drgnx

Lets Face it, DC doesn't have an Ironman. Steel never lived up, so they are letting the Bat-family have a go. Can't blame DC, Robery Downey made people love the character for what he always was, and since Marvel has been trying to push their Supermen for years, DC is just returning the favor with this round.

The suit does look bad@$$ though , its like Ironman built Black Panther a theme styled suit like he did for Peter, but put a Bat symbol on it.

BatWing
Black Panther

Posted by girlinfourcolors

Personally, I would love to see someone (preferably a writer who understands the realities of living in the DRC a bit better than Judd Winick) take David Zavimbe and spin him off into a series based on The Kingdom. While the original team has mostly died off, the concepts and designs for them were really cool, and I could definitely see Zavimbe leading a team of young African heroes who take up those now empty mantles.

Edited by Yung ANcient One

I totally disagreed, but then I read your article now I have changed my mind. You are right David should grow and become his own entity not another BAT. I also think Luke Fox is a good choice as well as other characters that actually relate to Bats, but

completely against Luke becoming a costumed crime fighter, especially after what happened to Batman's own son.

This part makes me question the entire thing again, and makes me dislike bats for brains yet again. I guess he does end up being a grumpy lonely old fart with only his dog and test tube son to love.

( + )

Posted by nappystr8

@drgnx said:

Lets Face it, DC doesn't have an Ironman. Steel never lived up, so they are letting the Bat-family have a go. Can't blame DC, Robery Downey made people love the character for what he always was, and since Marvel has been trying to push their Supermen for years, DC is just returning the favor with this round.

The suit does look bad@$$ though , its like Ironman built Black Panther a theme styled suit like he did for Peter, but put a Bat symbol on it.

You make a good point there. Although, DC does have another established character who is almost a 1 to 1 match to Iron Man as it is. He is also a black character, and his name is Hardware. He was probably the most popular of the Milestone characters back in the early nineties. He had a small role in fellow Milestone character Static Shock's New 52 book, but was never given a shot at a relaunch of his own.

Also an interesting note, the female Black Panther does indeed have a robotic armor similar to Iron Man's or that of the new Batwing.

Posted by nappystr8
Edited by JohnnyGat

@soumya said:

@johnnygat said:

@jphugo15 said:

this kinda makes bats seem like an idiot.

introducing a friend's son into the bat family almost immediately after losing his own son. wut.

And he does it with a big smile on his face

I think may be this incident took place before Damien's death.Unlike other bat books this title did not have any "requiem" issue so far.

Doubtful. The pacing of Batman Inc would imply little to no breaks in between and an issue or two back David was in Gotham with the rest of Batman Inc. beaten by the Heretic. It doesn't have a requiem issue because in the end although during the Court of Owls event they tried to make him part of the Bat family his situation makes him more of a Bat book that isn't really part of the family much like Batwoman. That's why neither Batwing nor Batwoman have requiem issues even though they both have Bat in their names.

Posted by Necrotic_Lycanthrope

@captain13:

Batwing being the "proto-type" of Terry McGuinnes' Batman Beyond?

That was never mentioned in the animated series (of which Batman Beyond was canon to). Unless the new Beyond stuff has nothing to do with the show, like how Injustice: Gods Among Us has nothing to do with the game.

Edited by Lamenoire

@yung_ancient_one:
Luke doesn't seems to be that young (he is more than 16, he completed MIT and is part of an official MMA fight which means he is at least 18 or 20-something...)
if Lucius son was under age, ti could be a problem (if he was 10 like damian for instance).
Batman already allowed the daughter of one of is ally (and friend) to become a crime fighter (Barbara Gordon). Should he prevent her to continue now that his son died ?

Luke seems to be an good fighter. he has been fighting in "classic martial arts" tournament since he is 16. and has been trying to get Batman's attention for 4 years.
He KO'ed a MMA fighter in 49 seconds for god sakes. yeah, it probably does't mean anything if you are up against Batman or Shiva.. but he doesn't seem to have broken a sweat over it either.
so he has good fighting skills. And he seems to be smart, like his father (MIT)

If Luke wants to become a superhero, I don't see a way to prevent him to do so. I guess it is better to have him in an high tech suit and havin Batman Inc ressourses than alowing him to do it on his own

Edited by drgnx

The title cover was completely misleading to the story of issue 19.

Posted by Nelomaxwell

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .

Edited by drgnx

@nappystr8 said:

@drgnx said:

Lets Face it, DC doesn't have an Ironman. Steel never lived up, so they are letting the Bat-family have a go. Can't blame DC, Robery Downey made people love the character for what he always was, and since Marvel has been trying to push their Supermen for years, DC is just returning the favor with this round.

The suit does look bad@$$ though , its like Ironman built Black Panther a theme styled suit like he did for Peter, but put a Bat symbol on it.

You make a good point there. Although, DC does have another established character who is almost a 1 to 1 match to Iron Man as it is. He is also a black character, and his name is Hardware. He was probably the most popular of the Milestone characters back in the early nineties. He had a small role in fellow Milestone character Static Shock's New 52 book, but was never given a shot at a relaunch of his own.

Also an interesting note, the female Black Panther does indeed have a robotic armor similar to Iron Man's or that of the new Batwing.

Thanks. The Black Panther Female Suit looks cool, but then I'm biased when it comes to mech designs ;).

Hardware doesn't stand out as much as he was from a non-mainstream label and because he is from a universe where most of the heroes are of an ethnic background different from what we are used to so there is less contrast. However, as post-flashpoint should normalize both those issues, Hardware has a different issue; He is creator owned! DC isn't going to risk another Superman fiasco by pushing a potential "Ironman" that could be reclaimed later down the road or used against them in a manner to leverage a better contract. While there is nothing wrong with owners doing as I stated, Labels are going to consider these factors when deciding who to take to the top; their character or someone else's.

Posted by Nelomaxwell

Personally, I would love to see someone (preferably a writer who understands the realities of living in the DRC a bit better than Judd Winick) take David Zavimbe and spin him off into a series based on The Kingdom. While the original team has mostly died off, the concepts and designs for them were really cool, and I could definitely see Zavimbe leading a team of young African heroes who take up those now empty mantles.

Yes please we need this.

Posted by Nelomaxwell

@drgnx said:

@nappystr8 said:

@drgnx said:

Lets Face it, DC doesn't have an Ironman. Steel never lived up, so they are letting the Bat-family have a go. Can't blame DC, Robery Downey made people love the character for what he always was, and since Marvel has been trying to push their Supermen for years, DC is just returning the favor with this round.

The suit does look bad@$$ though , its like Ironman built Black Panther a theme styled suit like he did for Peter, but put a Bat symbol on it.

You make a good point there. Although, DC does have another established character who is almost a 1 to 1 match to Iron Man as it is. He is also a black character, and his name is Hardware. He was probably the most popular of the Milestone characters back in the early nineties. He had a small role in fellow Milestone character Static Shock's New 52 book, but was never given a shot at a relaunch of his own.

Also an interesting note, the female Black Panther does indeed have a robotic armor similar to Iron Man's or that of the new Batwing.

Thanks. The Black Panther Female Suit looks cool, but then I'm biased when it comes to mech designs ;).

Hardware doesn't stand out as much as he was from a non-mainstream label and because he is from a universe where most of the heroes are of an ethnic background different from what we are used to so there is less contrast. However, as post-flashpoint should normalize both those issues, Hardware has a different issue; He is creator owned! DC isn't going to risk another Superman fiasco by pushing a potential "Ironman" that could be reclaimed later down the road or used against them in a manner to leverage a better contract. While there is nothing wrong with owners doing as I stated, Labels are going to consider these factors when deciding who to take to the top; their character or someone else's.

You are incorrect sir. DC purchased Milestone they own it. I'm friends with someone who worked there (milestone) when the deal went down. DC has rights to Hardware, they've used him before and after the passing of Dwayne MCcDuffie. The only reason I can see them not using him is because of Steel or was, but that's not really an issue so much as probably the ethnic issue. If you read Hardware he came off as a black man angry at the injustices of society (not just at the treatment of black folks). I'd recommend them if you're up for it (The comics).

Edited by Hatutzeraze

Honestly, I'm not yet convinced this is an actual new direction. This issue spent way too much time building up Zavimbe's personal mission for me to think he's leaving this title. I actually suspect that the recruitment of a new Batwing is actually part of Zavimbe's chess-game against Philip Marksbury, giving Marksbury a false target to draw his attention away from Zavimbe himself.

I actually hope that's the case. As interesting as Luke Fox may end up being, I'd rather read about David Zavimbe. Whatever qualities Luke Fox can bring to this role, he will never really be the Batman of Africa. That's the concept I am in this comic for.

Edited by drgnx

@nelomaxwell said:

@drgnx said:

@nappystr8 said:

@drgnx said:

Lets Face it, DC doesn't have an Ironman. Steel never lived up, so they are letting the Bat-family have a go. Can't blame DC, Robery Downey made people love the character for what he always was, and since Marvel has been trying to push their Supermen for years, DC is just returning the favor with this round.

The suit does look bad@$$ though , its like Ironman built Black Panther a theme styled suit like he did for Peter, but put a Bat symbol on it.

You make a good point there. Although, DC does have another established character who is almost a 1 to 1 match to Iron Man as it is. He is also a black character, and his name is Hardware. He was probably the most popular of the Milestone characters back in the early nineties. He had a small role in fellow Milestone character Static Shock's New 52 book, but was never given a shot at a relaunch of his own.

Also an interesting note, the female Black Panther does indeed have a robotic armor similar to Iron Man's or that of the new Batwing.

Thanks. The Black Panther Female Suit looks cool, but then I'm biased when it comes to mech designs ;).

Hardware doesn't stand out as much as he was from a non-mainstream label and because he is from a universe where most of the heroes are of an ethnic background different from what we are used to so there is less contrast. However, as post-flashpoint should normalize both those issues, Hardware has a different issue; He is creator owned! DC isn't going to risk another Superman fiasco by pushing a potential "Ironman" that could be reclaimed later down the road or used against them in a manner to leverage a better contract. While there is nothing wrong with owners doing as I stated, Labels are going to consider these factors when deciding who to take to the top; their character or someone else's.

You are incorrect sir. DC purchased Milestone they own it. I'm friends with someone who worked there (milestone) when the deal went down. DC has rights to Hardware, they've used him before and after the passing of Dwayne MCcDuffie. The only reason I can see them not using him is because of Steel or was, but that's not really an issue so much as probably the ethnic issue. If you read Hardware he came off as a black man angry at the injustices of society (not just at the treatment of black folks). I'd recommend them if you're up for it (The comics).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milestone_Media

Publishing deal

Although Milestone comics were published through DC Comics, they did not take place in the DC Universe. Under an arrangement similar to the one DC and Wildstorm established later, all Milestone characters existed in a separate continuity that did not fall under DC Comics' direct editorial control (but DC still retained right of refusal to publish). Unlike Wildstorm, whose properties were bought by DC Comics, Milestone Media retained the copyright of their properties.

Fundamental to Milestone’s agreement with DC was they would not relinquish any of the legal or creative rights to their work. Throughout the negotiations, Milestone, and their lawyers, insisted on three basic points:

(1) that they would retain total creative control;

(2) that they would retain all copyrights for characters under the Milestone banner; and

(3) that they would have the final say on all merchandising and licensing deals pertaining to their properties.

In essence, DC had in effect licensed the characters, editorial services, and creative content of the Milestone books for an annual fee and a share of the profits.[1]

2008: DC "licenses" to Milestone as they needed to consult with Dwayne, unless there was a new deal between 2008-2011

Edited by CTG

I've never read a Batwing comic before this. What made me pick this up?

The new suit. Anytime I'd get remotely interested in reading Batwing, I'd look at that horrible costume and that was the end.

I'm not ashamed. I regret nothing.

Posted by detective38

Please spare me any more of this ridiculous "lets create a new batman related character" BS The first batwing was bad enough making him the son of lucius fox wont make tge series any better. DC JUST GIVE UP AND CANCEL THIS SERIES!

Posted by detective38

<p>Please spare me any more of this ridiculous "lets create a new batman related character" BS The first batwing was bad enough making him the son of lucius fox wont make tge series any better. DC JUST GIVE UP AND CANCEL THIS SERIES!</p>

Posted by thejman250

@thejman250 said:

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .

- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.

Edited by drgnx

@thejman250 said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@thejman250 said:

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .

- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.

Like how? Replace a white Character with a Black Character, cause would go totally different, or just create a new Black character and give him a new title as soon as they cancel Batwing and call him something else (DreadWing anyone)? I know, lets wait a year or 10 before launching the next Black character?

I mean when Barry got replaced with Wally, I didn't hear any of this reasoning, Batman gets replaced with several other family members and no one applies this logic, but a Black character gets replaced with a Black Character, heaven forbid that DC "might" clearly want a Black character in that role...

BTW, not attacking you, but just pointing out that DC doesn't need to be discrete, because there shouldn't be a need to be discrete about wanting to have a role specifically filled be a Black character.

Posted by thejman250

@drgnx said:

@thejman250 said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@thejman250 said:

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .

- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.

Like how? Replace a white Character with a Black Character, cause would go totally different, or just create a new Black character and give him a new title as soon as they cancel Batwing and call him something else (DreadWing anyone)? I know, lets wait a year or 10 before launching the next Black character?

I mean when Barry got replaced with Wally, I didn't hear any of this reasoning, Batman gets replaced with several other family members and no one applies this logic, but a Black character gets replaced with a Black Character, heaven forbid that DC "might" clearly want a Black character in that role...

- "Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.

- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.

- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?

- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.

- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.

- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.

- Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.

Edited by drgnx

@thejman250 said:

@drgnx said:

@thejman250 said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@thejman250 said:

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .

- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.

Like how? Replace a white Character with a Black Character, cause would go totally different, or just create a new Black character and give him a new title as soon as they cancel Batwing and call him something else (DreadWing anyone)? I know, lets wait a year or 10 before launching the next Black character?

I mean when Barry got replaced with Wally, I didn't hear any of this reasoning, Batman gets replaced with several other family members and no one applies this logic, but a Black character gets replaced with a Black Character, heaven forbid that DC "might" clearly want a Black character in that role...

- "Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.

- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.

- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?

- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.

- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.

- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.

- Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.

---------

"Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.


Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).

- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.

How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state

- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?

You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!

- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.

What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.

- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.

No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.

- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.

Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...

Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.

The only thing I failed at was getting a proper response from you.

Posted by FoxCircuit101

Okay fine the character's got potential. But I can't help but feel as though they're trying to a pull a Miles Morales.

Posted by dimmoe

@girlinfourcolors said:

Personally, I would love to see someone (preferably a writer who understands the realities of living in the DRC a bit better than Judd Winick) take David Zavimbe and spin him off into a series based on The Kingdom. While the original team has mostly died off, the concepts and designs for them were really cool, and I could definitely see Zavimbe leading a team of young African heroes who take up those now empty mantles.

Yes please we need this.

but will that sell? it sounds awesome btw but will it selll. comics is all about money.

Posted by whitelantern64

@blackarmor: Well I agree with your other points but Wildcat isn't coming to Batman/Earth 1 anytime soon unless its some cross dimensional thing. Even though he hasn't been in costume or anything, he's been mentioned/shown in the Earth 2 comics. Personally I wish DC expand the whole Earth 2 universe already, there are so many spinoffs based on that comic just waiting to happen.

Posted by BlackArmor

@blackarmor: i'd like to add we traded in a man for a boy; a pro for an amateur. i love teen/young heroes but mostly in a team book besides that i already got nightwing (which sucks), red hood and red robin. luke fox is just beyond redundant. you really do have to look outside the big two for some diversity (not just in characters but in story)

David's time in the mantle definitely benefited from him being experienced enough to just dive into the story and how it affected the characters instead of us having to focus on him finding his footing and Luke won't have that advantage but who knows it might be fun to watch him develop into a pro. And I agree about Dick, Jason and Tim I love all those characters but they are pretty redundant at this point even with Jason killing people, if Luke fills the same role as they do it'll be a pretty over crowded niche. There are diverse products in the big 2 but they're usually underrated, and under advertised.

I didn't necessarily mean that I was looking forward to Wildcat and Batman working together and I know he's coming back in Earth 2, I was just kind of pointing out the similarities between Luke and Ted within the context of Wildcat not quite being back yet outside of one appearance on a billboard

Posted by Nelomaxwell

@dimmoe said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@girlinfourcolors said:

Personally, I would love to see someone (preferably a writer who understands the realities of living in the DRC a bit better than Judd Winick) take David Zavimbe and spin him off into a series based on The Kingdom. While the original team has mostly died off, the concepts and designs for them were really cool, and I could definitely see Zavimbe leading a team of young African heroes who take up those now empty mantles.

Yes please we need this.

but will that sell? it sounds awesome btw but will it selll. comics is all about money.

Of course it won't, most white comic book readers don't want to see black people in solo comics (notice I said most.) A number of people in the industry from Tom Brevortt to Mark Waid have expressed this already about the comic buying public.

Edited by Akindoodle

@drgnx: Wow, that article you linked just got me really depressed. It's awful that I'll be given funny looks for dressing up as Sif at a convention because I'm not pale skinned and blue eyed. Are Storm and Vixen really the only female heroes I can cosplay as?

I really thought the point of Batwing was to have a "Batman of Africa" (though that is impossible considering Africa is the 2nd largest continent on the planet and arguably the most dangerous. The entire BAT FAMILY and then some can't keep ONE itty bitty Gotham safe).

It's so sad to see that comic characters must be Americanised in some shape or form to appeal to the market but then again, diversity for diversity's sake isn't really cool; it's patronising. Imagine the token white person on the majority black team. See what I mean? But at this point, DC really needs it. They have no other solo minority characters; Jackson Hyde has been written out of continuity, Static is gone, Mr. Terrific is gone, Xombi was a limited series to begin with. TWO years and Cyborg has less than an A4 sheet of character development or even dialogue (Geoff Johns, what are you doing?).

Also, they could've used someone already established in the title though instead of randomly pulling Luke Fox from nowhere. Not bashing on the quality of the book and nothing against the character but how is he going to function in the Congo? Does he speak the language? Does he even know that there is more than one language? That there are TWO Congos? How is he going to keep track of crime there? The CRIMINALS have a hard time keeping track. Is he even going to the Congo at all?... I don't really know what I'm saying anymore.

I'm just really disappointed in DC and comic fans in general that a book about a non-american character in a non-american setting cannot be kept going. How can I relate to Peter Parker as a hero but the average comic fan (young white male) has a problem understanding why Vixen would do this or that?

(Gosh, I must sound so whiny. I'm sorry, I just feel really sad now is all)

Posted by drgnx

@drgnx: Wow, that article you linked just got me really depressed. It's awful that I'll be given funny looks for dressing up as Sif at a convention because I'm not pale skinned and blue eyed. Are Storm and Vixen really the only female heroes I can cosplay as?

I really thought the point of Batwing was to have a "Batman of Africa" (though that is impossible considering Africa is the 2nd largest continent on the planet and arguably the most dangerous. The entire BAT FAMILY and then some can't keep ONE itty bitty Gotham safe).

It's so sad to see that comic characters must be Americanised in some shape or form to appeal to the market but then again, diversity for diversity's sake isn't really cool; it's patronising. Imagine the token white person on the majority black team. See what I mean? But at this point, DC really needs it. They have no other solo minority characters; Jackson Hyde has been written out of continuity, Static is gone, Mr. Terrific is gone, Xombi was a limited series to begin with. TWO years and Cyborg has less than an A4 sheet of character development or even dialogue (Geoff Johns, what are you doing?).

Also, they could've used someone already established in the title though instead of randomly pulling Luke Fox from nowhere. Not bashing on the quality of the book and nothing against the character but how is he going to function in the Congo? Does he speak the language? Does he even know that there is more than one language? That there are TWO Congos? How is he going to keep track of crime there? The CRIMINALS have a hard time keeping track. Is he even going to the Congo at all?... I don't really know what I'm saying anymore.

I'm just really disappointed in DC and comic fans in general that a book about a non-american character in a non-american setting cannot be kept going. How can I relate to Peter Parker as a hero but the average comic fan (young white male) has a problem understanding why Vixen would do this or that?

(Gosh, I must sound so whiny. I'm sorry, I just feel really sad now is all)

I agree with some of your points but think you're overlooking the main point of rebooting Batwing, and this is mainly to tie him in closer to the Bat-family to leverage Batman's name popularity better. David was too well established to go back and do that. It is probably the setting that didn't work well as you mentioned. It sees more like they want to try what they do with Tim and Jason by having him closely tied to Gotham, but still having freedom to international. Even Batwoman gets some appearances from other Batman family members and shows up in theirs without seeming out of place because they all in Gotham. I have a feeling the Talon will be getting more integrated into the Bat-universe as he will be going up against Bane soon.

Batman sells, and I think that is what DC notices when doing this change, I'm hoping it is just that people don't want a "Bat in name only" character.

The thing about adding a "token character" is that you're damned if you don't and Damned if you do. So DC wants new character, and they want him to be a ethnic minority like the last guy. Is it really that bad? Should they roll a die when picking gender and race? Should they have a rule about changing race when a new character picks up a mantel? There would be people complaining if they changed BW race too.

Posted by arnoldoaad

@g_man: David as Batwing didn't quite work on two fronts. As mentioned in BATWING #19, David just didn't feel right being part of Batman Inc. The bat-symbol wasn't who he was. In short, he didn't quite fit into the Bat-mythos. This isn't to say he wants to give up his fight. He still strongly feels the need to dedicate himself to doing all he can. He just doesn't feel doing it as Batwing is the answer.

the OP make it sound like if David will reappear eventually in either in this book or in any other book when in reality is completely the opposite.

I dont think we will see David again so he might as well be dead for all that matters.

Posted by Akindoodle

@drgnx: Notice how I admitted to losing track of what I was saying halfway? Yeah I just got a bit upset and have a slight headache. Sorry if I sounded incoherent. I don't have a problem with replacing a black character with another. I meant to say that sometimes, I feel patronised when they stick a black person on a team just because they need diversity. If they wanted a black person more closely tied to the bat family they should have just established Luke as Batwing in the first place and in an American setting instead of throwing the Bat name at a place where you beat them to death with your slipper (True story, saw my Mom do that once but twas a rat). Hell, don't they have the second Azrael as a black fella anyway? I'm sure he has a fan base that's angry he's not around anymore. Should have started the diversity bat line with him instead of building up a fan base for a character that's probably not going to be seen for a good while

There. I think I've now made a post more relevant to the topic at hand. Previously I was just expressing my disappointment at the apparent narrow mindedness of the majority comics and readers (I said "apparent" and "majority". Don't shoot me)

Edited by thejman250

@drgnx said:

@thejman250 said:

@drgnx said:

@thejman250 said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@thejman250 said:

- Replace one black character with another black character.

- Because Batwing definitely has to be black. Interesting.

Could've been asian or hispanic would've been cool too I think. Personally I think anything but white male could fit at this point because we all know we need another white guy running around in a batsuit policing people .

- If DC's going to make a character Black, simply to have a Black character i think that they should be more discreet about it.

Like how? Replace a white Character with a Black Character, cause would go totally different, or just create a new Black character and give him a new title as soon as they cancel Batwing and call him something else (DreadWing anyone)? I know, lets wait a year or 10 before launching the next Black character?

I mean when Barry got replaced with Wally, I didn't hear any of this reasoning, Batman gets replaced with several other family members and no one applies this logic, but a Black character gets replaced with a Black Character, heaven forbid that DC "might" clearly want a Black character in that role...

- "Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.

- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.

- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?

- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.

- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.

- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.

- Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.

---------

"Like how"? Perhaps in a way that wasn't so painfully obvious.


Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).

- Am i supposed to care that you have a Black character just to have one? At least Simon Baz was inserted in a more discreet manner.

How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state

- Diversity simply for the sake of diversity is not something i'm fond of. What's next, create a random gay arabic black character simply for the sake of having a gay arabic black character?

You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!

- Yes, this applies because Wally definitely wasn't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, it doesn't and your argument fails. Surprise, surprise.

What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.

- Batman gets replaced by Family members who weren't a part of the series thus far. Oh wait, your argument fails here as well.

No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.

- Replacing one black character with another black character simply to have a black character fill that role is completely different than having your sidekick replace you when you happen to fall in the line of fire as they've basically been training for that scenario.

Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...

Try again, and hopefully you'll have better arguments next time.

The only thing I failed at was getting a proper response from you.

Like give an example to back up your point, under their current constraints (Their goal to introduce a character close to Batman, different and unattached to David, and yes, a Black one at that, and under their obligation to finish off story lines of the current Batwing).

- I don't need an example to back up my point sir. I'm not obligated to brainstorm for DC simply because they lack the brain capacity to do it themselves.

- Yes, Batwing has to be black, because they must have a black character. Oh ok. Having a black character, just for the sake of having a black character. Surprise, surprise.

How was it more discrete, explain, don't just state

- Figure it out. I don't have to explain my opinion to you sir. Try again.

You repeated you first statement but replaced Black with Diversity, what does any of this prove? Will you be complaining about women next too? Here, is something to chew on: the first 2 versions of Batgirl were introduced in the same manner(out of nowhere, related to per-existing characters). Chew Away!!!

- Yes, because David was definitely related to someone else prior to his inception. Oh wait. Your point fails once again.

- If you are illiterate i'm not going to keep reiterating myself. My point is clear as day, figure it out.

What difference does it make if he was part of the series before or not, Was Simon, your example, part of the series before they introduced him? NO! You need to be introduced at some point, there is no rule of when.

- Everything sir. Your examples that you brought up failed completely. RIchard and Wally didn't suddenly turn white when they became Batman and the flash, they had been white for what is most likely a longer period of time than you have been alive.

No it does not, because nobody cried about them replacing Batman with another WHITE character, which was my point, because you're crying that a Black character was replaced with another Black character without discretion. The only thing that fails is your comprehension. Trying to point out that Luke is a new Character, which apparently his has been shown prior, is pointless because it is nothing new for a new character to appear out of nowhere. So there is nothing indiscreet about just introducing a new character and retconning them into history, which means your basically crying about a Black on Black replacement and looking for reasons to justify it.

- Your point that failed atrociously.

- Richard didn't suddenly turn white a couple years ago, he had been white for a time period that is most likely longer than your life. People were going to complain about Richard replacing Bruce because he was white, even though it was the logical step and he had been white for over 50 years? I highly doubt that. The same thing goes for Wally. Two of your pathetic attempts at examples. Surprise, surprise.

- My comprehension failing is your opinion, try again. As far as i'm concerned, DC is making a character Black just to be Black.

- That's your opinion that there's nothing "indiscreet" and i'm not going to argue with you as i don't really care what you think. As far as i'm concerned, they should do it more discretely. The end.

- I don't need to justify my opinion sir, and especially not to you. You have no authority on the internet, nor does DC.

- I think it's indiscreet and i won't be buying this trash. The end.

Except, no one complained that a White character replaced a white character, like when Azriel took over Batman, I didn't recall him being a side-kick. You still never explained why DC needs to be discrete either, but nice attempt to dodge the main point I was making. It has not escaped me with your "responses" ...

- Why i think DC needs to be discreet? I don't have to explain my opinion to you. I don't know who you think you are, but get over it.

- Because Azriel suddenly appeared after Bruce was crippled, and he definitely wasn't a previously established white character in the series. Another failing point. Surprise surprise. Bruce told Tim to train him. He was basically a sidekick of sorts. Try again.

Posted by DocFishstick

well i don't know about this but i will check it out and see where it goes.

Edited by Faceman

@jphugo15: completely agree. he got his son killed, can't wait to see how he gets Lucius' son killed. Gets to a point where you gotta say Bruce, you're kind of out of control here. Dude seems like he's got quite the hard on for this new bat suit, look at the smile on his face! Hey man, your son was disemboweled before your eyes a couple days ago, maybe time to re-evaluate this whole running around dressed like a bat thing.

Edited by Zeeguy91

@faceman said:

@jphugo15: completely agree. he got his son killed, can't wait to see how he gets Lucius' son killed. Gets to a point where you gotta say Bruce, you're kind of out of control here. Dude seems like he's got quite the hard on for this new bat suit, look at the smile on his face! Hey man, your son was disemboweled before your eyes a couple days ago, maybe time to re-evaluate this whole running around dressed like a bat thing.

To be fair, Bruce really didn't get Damian killed. He told Damian to stay behind, didn't he? He saw that it was too dangerous. Damian disobeyed him and went to join the fight anyway.

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