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Off My Mind: Why the New Batwing is a Great Idea

"He's a new character but you may have seen him before."

It's rare that secrets are able to be kept when it comes to comic book characters. Recently it was revealed that Jimmy Palmiotti and Justin Gray would be taking over BATWING. They also announced they had plans to replace David Zavimbe as Batwing with someone else. There was immediate concern over the fate of David and some outcry over why this change was needed. The fact is, the change was necessary and it will be fun and exciting. (Note: there will be spoilers below for BATWING #19).

David Zavimbe as Batwing made his debut in BATMAN INCORPORATED, Volume 1 #5. He was recruited, in a sense, by Batman to become part of Batman Inc. What this really meant was Batman saw something in him. He saw the burning passion to right the wrongs in his country. Batman wasn't trying to insert his beliefs or ideals upon another nation but felt with his money and resources, he could help develop another fighting force for good. Giving David the tools he needed to become Batwing was his way to try to help rid the word of evil.

David as Batwing didn't quite work on two fronts. As mentioned in BATWING #19, David just didn't feel right being part of Batman Inc. The bat-symbol wasn't who he was. In short, he didn't quite fit into the Bat-mythos. This isn't to say he wants to give up his fight. He still strongly feels the need to dedicate himself to doing all he can. He just doesn't feel doing it as Batwing is the answer.

The reality of it is, this is for the best. David is a great character, one that shouldn't simply disappear. He deserves to be something more than just another Bat-character. He had no ties to Batman or Gotham City so it never really made sense for him to be part of the 'family.' In order to involve him (and the title) in Night of the Owls, the story had to come up with a reason for him to be in Gotham despite wanting to focus on the troubles in his own nation.

The other fact is despite having fans, the series wasn't doing too great in sales. Again, the reason was David didn't really have a strong connection to Batman and the others in Gotham. When the interactions did come up, it felt a little forced. By bringing in a new Batwing with a stronger connection to Gotham and Batman, David is still able to fight his battles but on his own terms.

In BATWING #19, we get a glimpse at who the new Batwing will be. It turns out Lucius Fox's son, Luke Fox, will be joining the Bat-Family in a big way. Who is Luke Fox? It might not be official but we may have seen Luke Fox previously in Batman Beyond, as Lucius Fox Jr. This goes along with their description of him being "a new character but [we] may have seen him before."

While Gray and Palmiotti may not want to confirm or deny it is the same character from the animated series, it makes sense that they could be, even if the Batman Beyond Universe isn't necessarily 100% guaranteed to be the future of BATMAN.

Luke Fox is a MMA fighter. He's been doing it for four years at this point. That gives him a certain level of training that would allow him to stand a chance in Batman's Family. A new suit has been developed, ironically enough by Lucius Fox. The level of tech contained in the suit is beyond anything that Batman himself wears. It almost feels as if it's a predecessor to the familiar suit Terry McGinnis later wears.

The fact that Batman is bringing in Lucius Fox's son is a huge risk. This is what gives the story a nice new twist. Lucius is not aware of Batman's true identity. We would think he would have to have some suspicions especially due to the fact he's a brilliant man. But it could be that Bruce Wayne puts on a great act.

The future?

We're seeing Batman become more and more dependent on the tech developed by Fox and Wayne Tech. Fox doesn't approve of his son fighting and would clearly be completely against Luke becoming a costumed crime fighter, especially after what happened to Batman's own son.

Hopefully we haven't seen the last of David Zavimbe. Luke Fox adds a new element to the Bat-Family. It will be fascinating to see his fighting style combined with the tech of the new Batwing suit. It may not be a situation everyone would approve of but this opens the door to some very intriguing stories. I can't remember the last time I've been this curious and interested in a 'new' character. Let's just hope he survives long enough for us to see what he's fully capable of.

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Edited by JazGalaxy

weird, but cool.

I like how the failings of Batwing are seemingly just becoming obvious when anyone with a brain could see from the start how it would be incredibly difficult to make a bat-family book that exists outside of Gotham and even America.

I like the idea of Batwing, but I think they should really "Green Ranger" him and try not to overexpose him.

Posted by jphugo15

this kinda makes bats seem like an idiot.

introducing a friend's son into the bat family almost immediately after losing his own son. wut.

Posted by Trevel8182

They should of given Nightrunner or Knight and Squire there own series.

Edited by iaconpoint

Did it say from where the new Batwing will be operating? I was already in because of Gray and Palmiotti, and the fact that it's a character close to the Wayne family makes it even better.

Edited by darkrider

@trevel8182:

exactly give him the same chance that simon and khalid got

Online
Edited by Queen's Halo

So thy replaced one token black guy with another token black guy? So shocking. And clearly if the staff think it's a good idea, you can be sure it sucks.

Edit: This was sarcasm. Also I know I used 'token character' in the wrong way. Lets move on.

Posted by Lvenger

I was expecting more from Gray and Palmiotti and this doesn't impress. Luke Fox is just shoehorned into the role of Batwing very casually in a way that doesn't befit his predecessor. I get David's reasons for not being Batwing but this new guy doesn't seem all that special. Hopefully I'll be converted later on but for now, this seems like nothing special.

Online
Posted by BoyWander

Can Night Runner get his own series? He was awesome. I would definitely pick that up. Oh well.

Posted by Batnandez

@lvenger: and you know this because you read the fist issue they did? that's right you didn't

Posted by FoxxFireArt

Not that I'm disagreeing with the idea he deserves to be a character, but they can go through making a new member of the Bat Family and still no Cassandra Kain, someone who already has a fan base? The Bat Family has turned into a real boy's club,

Edited by feargalr

Might give Batwing another chance now, I dropped it after like issue 5 or 6. At the very least the new suit is much cooler

Although given that Damian just died, it really makes absolutely no sense for Batman to be bringing anyone new into the fold...

Posted by SpadesSlick

It's a really poor choice. Batman is supposed to be a symbol that can inspire anyone, not just the people of gotham. Really this is just butchering the main selling points of the book, an African man dealing with African problems, to make it just another generic Gothamite bat-character tied to another Gotham character. It's all so incredibly insular.

I lost all interest in this book now, rather it have just been canceled.

Posted by JohnnyGat

@jphugo15 said:

this kinda makes bats seem like an idiot.

introducing a friend's son into the bat family almost immediately after losing his own son. wut.

And he does it with a big smile on his face

Posted by BlueLantern1995

This sounds interesting. Still Batman after losing his son is willing to risk another son after the loss of his own son? Illogical and stupid Batman. Hopefully the story's good.

Posted by Carolina574

How about this guy for the next robin? Not right now, but down the line.

Posted by Scarlet_Spider_Forever

So is this guy basically Batman Beyond? Thats what it looks like...

Posted by OutlawRenegade

This article has it completely right. I'm reall excited about the new Batwing and will pick it up today.

Posted by AlForeigner

The new Batwing looks really good, might give this issue a shot. That is if DC doesn't find a way to ruin the potential that this issue might have..

Posted by The_Tree

I'm looking forward to seeing more of Luke, he seems pretty interesting. Not to mention, I love Palmiotti and Grey.

Edited by TheRobberBarron

Is this foreal? Why would I care if Batwing had ties to the Batfamily? There are like 45 other members of the familly. and just like@jphugo15 said Batman looks like an idiot brining in a family friend into such a dangerous world. Also David didn't work because the story became straight up trash. It felt like Judd Widdick had a ghost writer or his heart wasn't in it or something. Batwing's realm was Africa and your telling me with poachers , war lords , blood diamonds , child soldiers , rape in the congo , your telling me there wasn't enough story there? Running away from David and Africa is a lazy excuse to bring another American Bat character into the fold as if that was needed...and the fact that he is an MMA fighter doesn't mean anything!

Edited by SupremeHyperion

Why call him batwing? just have him be named Iron Panther and leave it at that.......... zing

or even better...

BlackWar PantherMachine

Edited by fodigg

LAME.

David Zavimbe was a great character with a rounded supporting cast, and Batwing launched with a great villain in Massacre in a storyline that expanded the mythos of African superheroes with The Kingdom further in the first weeks of the new 52 than had ever been done previously. Saying Zavimbe didn't make sense as the Batman of Africa—which is what Batwing is supposed to be and was marketed as—because he was, well, from Africa and not Gotham, is one of the silliest things I've seen written about the series.

DC is now trading out the entire concept of the book for "Batman Beyond, But Today". Hey, that's not a bad concept. I could dig that. But I don't see why they had to bury Zavimbe to do it. I don't see why they had to abandon the entire point of the mantle to do it. They didn't just put him on a bus, they:

  • Fridged his mentor
  • Had him suddenly turn on his principles so he would leave the mask, which undercuts the entire moral ground of the series
  • Had him quit his job as a cop, essentially giving up on his personal goals as well as his "Batwing" goals
  • Had Batman label Luke Fox as his "first choice" over Zavimbe

Low sales mean low sales. I get that. But this should have been a cancellation and a new series starting up. Instead, they're expecting fans of the old Batwing to jump on board despite totally destroying Zavimbe and then kicking him to the curb so they could introduce an entirely new concept for the mantle.

They didn't just cancel Zavimbe's book, they broke or stole all of his toys first.

Edited by cacarl

@trevel8182: That team doesn't exist anymore ( sorry for the spoiler).

Posted by mcbean

You might be off your mind.

Edited by Captain13

@queen_s_halo said:

So thy replaced one token black guy with another token black guy? So shocking. And clearly if the staff think it's a good idea, you can be sure it sucks.

Do you realize how ignorant this comment is? Your misuse of "token" only illustrates that you may be racist and don't even realize it. Or maybe you do?

For future reference:

A token character can also be used by writers to pay lip service to rules or standards, when they otherwise have no intention of doing so, such as by obeying anti-racism policies by including a token ethnic minority character who—despite being present often—has no function in the overall plot, does little or nothing, and is often a stereotyped character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_black_guy#Tokenism_in_fiction

So, a Black main character cannot be token--by definition. The main character is central to the plot. A token character is not.

If fiction is supposed to reflect reality, then we should obviously have some Black main characters--especially in a franchise with fifteen books, each of which is designed to tap into a different market: women, gays, the young, etc.

I have no problem with Luke Fox being Black since his father is--wait for it... wait for it--Black! And his father has been a key part of the mythos for decades now.

Not only is it good financially do have a diverse set of characters for your clientele to identify with or choose from, the character should be Black if we follow the logic of the story.

Further, Luke doesn't fit any conventional Black stereotypes that I've heard of before.

--

Your reflex to call the main character of a book token only seems to illustrate that you seem to think that Black characters are worthless, unwanted, or unlikely to contribute anything. I mean you did use to term to refer to both Luke and David, right? The fact that you don't do this with other non-black characters in the Bat-franchise is telling.

--

Let's demystify some misconceptions about racism.

1) You can be prejudiced against one racial group and not others. So you can hate that Batwing is Black while still appreciating that Cassandra Cain is Asian.

2) Due to cultural mores, many people of all races cannot admit to themselves to to others that they are prejudiced against a certain group of people. See these for more information:

Aversive Racism

Laissez-Faire Racism

--

I have no ill will toward you. How can anyone hate someone for not knowing any better? But I sincerely hope that you try to educate yourself on race issue that persist in the present day. Most universities offer great sociology classes on the subject.

Good day.

Edited by StMichalofWilson

Well that's interesting.

Posted by BlackArmor

I guess I have no real choice but to give this new guy a chance but I have to say that so far Luke Fox doesn't seem especially interesting, it's like we've seen him before. A billionaire playboy who actually enjoys being a hero? Couldn't I pick up an issue of Iron Man for that? Batman endangering one of his closest allies children? Isn't Barbara back under the Batgirl cowl? A superhero who's a professional fighter? All that does is make me sad that Wildcat isn't back yet. A Gotham-centric member of the Bat-Family? I've never seen that before...except for everyone who's not in inc. I'm not saying Luke can't work but just based on the character's premise I'm bored. David was something else, his origins, his environment, his temperament, his conflicts they all felt fresh and new. One is a child solider turned superhero who has to fight every day to reign in his anger and do things with as little bloodshed as possible, someone who can't connect to the people around him because they are part of the corruption he must face, someone who has to devote himself to being the largely independent hero of an entire continent. The other is a rich playboy professional athlete son of a CEO and "Confident, connected and a bit of a flirt.".

Which of those two sounds more interesting

Posted by Captain13

@fodigg said:

LAME.

David Zavimbe was a great character with a rounded supporting cast, and Batwing launched with a great villain in Massacre in a storyline that expanded the mythos of African superheroes with The Kingdom further in the first weeks of the new 52 than had ever been done previously. Saying Zavimbe didn't make sense as the Batman of Africa—which is what Batwing is supposed to be and was marketed as—because he was, well, from Africa and not Gotham, is one of the silliest things I've seen written about the series.

DC is now trading out the entire concept of the book for "Batman Beyond, But Today". Hey, that's not a bad concept. I could dig that. But I don't see why they had to bury Zavimbe to do it. I don't see why they had to abandon the entire point of the mantle to do it. They didn't just put him on a bus, they:

  • Fridged his mentor
  • Had him suddenly turn on his principles so he would leave the mask, which undercuts the entire moral ground of the series
  • Had him quit his job as a cop, essentially giving up on his personal goals as well as his "Batwing" goals
  • Had Batman label Luke Fox as his "first choice" over Zavimbe

Low sales mean low sales. I get that. But this should have been a cancellation and a new series starting up. Instead, they're expecting fans of the old Batwing to jump on board despite totally destroying Zavimbe and then kicking him to the curb so they could introduce an entirely new concept for the mantle.

They didn't just cancel Zavimbe's book, they broke or stole all of his toys first.

Legit criticism, but I couldn't bring myself to buy the old book because I know that Batman Inc is a gimmick that will not last. This works for me because 1) It's not as tied to Batman Inc anymore and 2) Crossovers, which boost sales, make more sense now 3) David seems far more interesting.

Can Night Runner get his own series? He was awesome. I would definitely pick that up. Oh well.

This article is not about Night Runner. Th Batwing title wasn't canceled, so there's no reason to think that it would be replaced.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the idea he deserves to be a character, but they can go through making a new member of the Bat Family and still no Cassandra Kain, someone who already has a fan base? The Bat Family has turned into a real boy's club,

There's Batwoman and Batgirl.

Other than Batwing, there are no Black characters. One could say that the Bat Family has turned into a real white club. =P

Let me have my character. It's not zero sum.

It's a really poor choice. Batman is supposed to be a symbol that can inspire anyone, not just the people of gotham. Really this is just butchering the main selling points of the book, an African man dealing with African problems, to make it just another generic Gothamite bat-character tied to another Gotham character. It's all so incredibly insular.

I lost all interest in this book now, rather it have just been canceled.

Well, he is different because he's dealing with international issues. Palmiotti said so. He just has closer ties to Gotham to bring him in for crossovers and to make more sense in the Bat-mythos. His relationship to Batman is similar to Batgirl's.

This sounds interesting. Still Batman after losing his son is willing to risk another son after the loss of his own son? Illogical and stupid Batman. Hopefully the story's good.

He doesn't consider Luke his son. And he does hire many other "sons" for Batman Inc, so...

So is this guy basically Batman Beyond? Thats what it looks like...

Yes, he is the precursor to Terry McGinnis. His new suit will be what Bruce bases his off of, as was mentioned in the article. Luke Fox did show up in Batman Beyond. The difference is that he's the international Batman. And he enjoys being a caped crusader unlike many others in the family.

How about this guy for the next robin? Not right now, but down the line.

Seems like a demotion to me.

Posted by Captain13

I guess I have no real choice but to give this new guy a chance but I have to say that so far Luke Fox doesn't seem especially interesting, it's like we've seen him before. A billionaire playboy who actually enjoys being a hero? Couldn't I pick up an issue of Iron Man for that? Batman endangering one of his closest allies children? Isn't Barbara back under the Batgirl cowl? A superhero who's a professional fighter? All that does is make me sad that Wildcat isn't back yet. A Gotham-centric member of the Bat-Family? I've never seen that before...except for everyone who's not in inc. I'm not saying Luke can't work but just based on the character's premise I'm bored. David was something else, his origins, his environment, his temperament, his conflicts they all felt fresh and new. One is a child solider turned superhero who has to fight every day to reign in his anger and do things with as little bloodshed as possible, someone who can't connect to the people around him because they are part of the corruption he must face, someone who has to devote himself to being the largely independent hero of an entire continent. The other is a rich playboy professional athlete son of a CEO and "Confident, connected and a bit of a flirt.".

Which of those two sounds more interesting

The latter to me, but we all have our preferences. I don't like my heroes all grimdark.

Posted by TheRobberBarron

@blackarmor: Honestly I think you hit the nail with that comment...like i said this is such a waste and I know this sounds bad but I am done reading this series. I just don't see how Tony thinks this was a good idea.

Posted by V_Scarlotte_Rose


@foxxfireart said:

Not that I'm disagreeing with the idea he deserves to be a character, but they can go through making a new member of the Bat Family and still no Cassandra Kain, someone who already has a fan base? The Bat Family has turned into a real boy's club,

There's Batwoman and Batgirl.

Batwoman isn't one of the Bat-Family.
Edited by dimmoe

So thy replaced one token black guy with another token black guy? So shocking. And clearly if the staff think it's a good idea, you can be sure it sucks.

how is he a token black guy??

Posted by Queen's Halo
@dimmoe said:

@queen_s_halo said:

So thy replaced one token black guy with another token black guy? So shocking. And clearly if the staff think it's a good idea, you can be sure it sucks.

how is he a token black guy??

Yeah, I know I misused the phrase 'token character'. Move on, please. Also it was sarcasm. I was trying to say it seems like they are replacing one black guy with another in a crappy story just for the sake of having it. Lets move on.

Edited by Captain13

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@captain13 said:


@foxxfireart said:

Not that I'm disagreeing with the idea he deserves to be a character, but they can go through making a new member of the Bat Family and still no Cassandra Kain, someone who already has a fan base? The Bat Family has turned into a real boy's club,

There's Batwoman and Batgirl.

Batwoman isn't one of the Bat-Family.

The Batfamily is anyone that is being published under the Batfamily of titles (anything centering on the Bat-universe, edited by DC's Batman editors, and related to the Batman property). So, yes, she is--even is she is less connected in-story to the other characters.

And you didn't refute the rest of my comment.

Posted by Captain13

@dimmoe said:

@queen_s_halo said:

So thy replaced one token black guy with another token black guy? So shocking. And clearly if the staff think it's a good idea, you can be sure it sucks.

how is he a token black guy??

Yeah, queen_s_halo pm-ed me. There was simply some kind of miscommunication.

Posted by Lvenger

@lvenger: and you know this because you read the fist issue they did? that's right you didn't

What's with the ill will? I haven't done anything untoward to you so what's your problem? I'm just expressing my discontent with this change. I guess I'm not allowed to do that... Oh wait yes I am. Besides I can't be reading every comic. Not enough money for that.

Online
Edited by TheDarkSalmon

its funny how nobody gave a damn about Batwing and now that the character changed everyone has their 2cents. i think its all great story potential. alot of jelly in these donuts

Posted by fodigg

@captain13: I don't agree with that use of "token", but I do feel it's somewhat problematic that DC nixed the one notable (as in, promoted with its own series) black Bat character and replaced him with another black bat character in the same mantle that has no relation to or similarity to the old one. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the only important thing about the Batwing mantle is that the character is black any more than other legacy mantles are determined by race (Alan Scott to Hal Jordan to Guy Gardner to Kyle Rayner comes to mind as they had nothing connecting them), but it's potentially problematic that they couldn't come up with another mantle for young Fox and instead relegate him to the "official promoted" slot. And even if they did give him his own mantle, we can only have one leading black bat character at a time apparently. That annoys me.

Caveats:

  • Of course, if we had more black characters or more support for existing black characters (*cough*Cyborg*cough*), this wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't be so exceptional (as in rare) to have a black leading character or black bat-character. (Yeah, you could mention Nightrunner, but when did we see him last? We've seen the new black Dark Ranger more than him. And we haven't seen the black Azrael since the reboot!)
  • If they actually follow through on the implication that Zavimbe will stay active and give him his own standalone mantle, then the net result could be two strong characters who are black, with out of Batman's shadow (whereas "Lucious/Luke Fox" is a name known to casual Batman fans and makes sense there). Unfortunately, I have doubts that we'll see this and even if we do, it will probably be a background event and I don't expect him to have his own series. If they do turn around and launch a new series starring Zavimbe in a new mantle I will change my tune and label this whole thing as a brilliant move.

Again, I'm not against "Batman Beyond Today" title starring Luke Fox, but I don't like benching a great character like Zavimbe this way and hijacking his mantle. Especially if it was hijacked just because they want to promote that mantle as "Batwing, the ONE notable black Batman", because heavens forbid we have two. I guess the "rule of three" for team books translates as "rule of two" for related titles.

Posted by Immortal777

I don't get it why doesn't Batman wear the suit himself?

Edited by Captain13

@fodigg said:

@captain13: I don't agree with that use of "token", but I do feel it's somewhat problematic that DC nixed the one notable (as in, promoted with its own series) black Bat character and replaced him with another black bat character in the same mantle that has no relation to or similarity to the old one. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that the only important thing about the Batwing mantle is that the character is black any more than other legacy mantles are determined by race (Alan Scott to Hal Jordan to Guy Gardner to Kyle Rayner comes to mind as they had nothing connecting them), but it's potentially problematic that they couldn't come up with another mantle for young Fox and instead relegate him to the "official promoted" slot. And even if they did give him his own mantle, we can only have one leading black bat character at a time apparently. That annoys me.

Caveats:

  • Of course, if we had more black characters or more support for existing black characters (*cough*Cyborg*cough*), this wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't be so exceptional (as in rare) to have a black leading character or black bat-character. (Yeah, you could mention Nightrunner, but when did we see him last? We've seen the new black Dark Ranger more than him. And we haven't seen the black Azrael since the reboot!)
  • If they actually follow through on the implication that Zavimbe will stay active and give him his own standalone mantle, then the net result could be two strong characters who are black, with out of Batman's shadow (whereas "Lucious/Luke Fox" is a name known to casual Batman fans and makes sense there). Unfortunately, I have doubts that we'll see this and even if we do, it will probably be a background event and I don't expect him to have his own series. If they do turn around and launch a new series starring Zavimbe in a new mantle I will change my tune and label this whole thing as a brilliant move.

Again, I'm not against "Batman Beyond Today" title starring Luke Fox, but I don't like benching a great character like Zavimbe this way and hijacking his mantle. Especially if it was hijacked just because they want to promote that mantle as "Batwing, the ONE notable black Batman", because heavens forbid we have two. I guess the "rule of three" for team books translates as "rule of two" for related titles.

I agree that having a Black character come in simply to replace the previous one--as seen on the Walking Dead--smacks of wrong, but I don't think that this was a similar situation. What you're talking about has to do with team books. DC caters to an American market that often has difficulty relating to non-American characters. While, Batwing started as a critically successful book, his international nature and weak ties to the batfamily probably didn't help his sales with the hardcore batfans who care about people close to Bruce. David had to be replaced to give the title another shot in the arm. And to be honest, I prefer that they replace David with another Black character so that the diversity of the line isn't hurt. In sum, I'm happy that is still a Black character in the Batfam even if it isn't David, who was headed for cancellation. And I'm willing to give Luke a chance--especially since Palmiotti is writing him. That said, the way David was gotten rid of undercut his character and could offend his fanbase. I guess we should be happy that he wasn't fridged himself and that he has a happy ending.

So I'm cool with Batwing. What I am sour about is DC barely using or doing anything with Cyborg--a founder of the Justice League. He's been in that role for two years and has no plotlines, no villains, no love interest, and no mythos. I mean, come on! I would pay so much mney for a Cyborg solo. I already buy multiple copies of the issues of Justice League featuring Cyborg prominently on the Justice League. He has a ton of potential and DC is using him has Batman's PC and the team's bus. DC has plenty of Black characters. I don't care about numbers. I care about development, which is something 99% of Black characters lack. Thank God for Batwing and Miles Morales.

Posted by The Stegman

I won't complain yet like most. I'll just wait and see when issue 20 comes out.

Edited by Mbecks14

I completely agree on this. I didn't read much of the Batwing title, but the character did interest me. I just couldn't really get into it because he just didn't feel like part of the Bat-mythos. I completely agree on this being a smart move. Also I think the art in the latest Batwing is incredible, these scans are beautiful! That being said, I like the new Batwing costume minus the mask, it looks strange and I don't like that it covers the whole face.

While it is nice to see some more color being added to the Bat-family (especially since Cassandra Cain is gone) I agree with the comments about how it's weird that Bruce would bring in a new hero so soon after Damian's death.

Posted by Batnandez

@lvenger:because you're criticizing a creative team just because, it's a book you aren't picking up and you know nothing about minus the few spoilers you read. At least complain about a book you're reading that's actually come out.

Edited by V_Scarlotte_Rose

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@captain13 said:


@foxxfireart said:

Not that I'm disagreeing with the idea he deserves to be a character, but they can go through making a new member of the Bat Family and still no Cassandra Kain, someone who already has a fan base? The Bat Family has turned into a real boy's club,

There's Batwoman and Batgirl.

Batwoman isn't one of the Bat-Family.

The Batfamily is anyone that is being published under the Batfamily of titles (anything centering on the Bat-universe, edited by DC's Batman editors, and related to the Batman property). So, yes, she is--even is she is less connected in-story to the other characters.

And you didn't refute the rest of my comment.

Her title is one of the Batman Group of titles, but she's not one of the Bat-Family. She turned down an offer to join Batman Incorporated, wasn't involved in Night Of The Owls or Death Of The Family, and didn't have a Requiem issue. She doesn't really even associate with the family. Also, the DC website lists it as the Batman Group, not the Bat-Family.

As for the rest of your comment, yes, it is a bit of a boys club, what with Batgirl being the only definite member. Though Catwoman might count, and Harper Row might be joining soon.

Edited by mcbean
Posted by Burns2k

this will be on my standing order from now on

Edited by Mbecks14

@captain13 said:

So I'm cool with Batwing. What I am sour about is DC barely using or doing anything with Cyborg--a founder of the Justice League. He's been in that role for two years and has no plotlines, no villains, no love interest, and no mythos. I mean, come on! I would pay so much mney for a Cyborg solo. I already buy multiple copies of the issues of Justice League featuring Cyborg prominently on the Justice League. He has a ton of potential and DC is using him has Batman's PC and the team's bus. DC has plenty of Black characters. I don't care about numbers. I care about development, which is something 99% of Black characters lack. Thank God for Batwing and Miles Morales.

I completely agree. Cyborg is the only Justice League member without a solo series, which is especially ridiculous because Superman has 4 titles and Batman has 9 or 10 titles. And John Stewart is the only Green Lantern that hasn't had a solo series or important character arc since Rebirth. He's been either absent or co-leading with Kyle or Guy. John and Cyborg are DC's premiere black characters, and I think we definitely need to see more from them. And they should give Static Shock another chance, maybe just pretend the first attempt never happened and start from scratch.

Edited by redhood21

i get the suit looks similar, but just cuz its a shooter doesn't mean its a COD RIPOFF!?!? Honestly im kinda glad to see a suit headed that way so its more like a progression towards the Beyond suit rather than I was wearing a cowl and spandex for years and suddenly I said to myself....technology

Posted by Miss_Garrick

How many kids does Lucius have? I'm losing track.

Edited by Captain13

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@captain13 said:

@v_scarlotte_rose said:

@captain13 said:


@foxxfireart said:

Not that I'm disagreeing with the idea he deserves to be a character, but they can go through making a new member of the Bat Family and still no Cassandra Kain, someone who already has a fan base? The Bat Family has turned into a real boy's club,

There's Batwoman and Batgirl.

Batwoman isn't one of the Bat-Family.

The Batfamily is anyone that is being published under the Batfamily of titles (anything centering on the Bat-universe, edited by DC's Batman editors, and related to the Batman property). So, yes, she is--even is she is less connected in-story to the other characters.

And you didn't refute the rest of my comment.

Her title is one of the Batman Group of titles, but she's not one of the Bat-Family. She turned down an offer to join Batman Incorporated, wasn't involved in Night Of The Owls or Death Of The Family, and didn't have a Requiem issue. She doesn't really even associate with the family. Also,

the DC website

lists it as the Batman Group, not the Bat-Family.

As for the rest of your comment, yes, it is a bit of a boys club, what with Batgirl being the only definite member. Though Catwoman might count, and Harper Row might be joining soon.

So the Batfamily has Batgirl, Catwoman, and Harper Row, but you have a problem with the group having a Black male because it has White males? Diversity is not just a gender thing, you know. There are no other Black characters in the Bat family.

Just because you didn't get more of the diversity that you want doesn't mean that this is bad. And finally, why would you shift a discussion about race to one about gender if you don't believe that this is a zero sum game? We can take care of the gender issue without disregarding the race issue. Let's take care of one thing at a time.

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