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Off My Mind: What if the Punisher Shot an Innocent?

It's his job to punish the guilty but what if he became guilty himself?

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The Punisher has been seen as both hero and villain. Many simply call him an anti-hero. He may be a killer but he is on a mission he feels is just. There's no denying that Frank Castle has suffered through the worst thing that could happen to a man. While living a normal life, he and his family stumbled across a gangland killing. To avoid having witness that could identify them, the killers attempted to do away with Frank, his wife and children. Luckily (or unluckily) Frank managed to survive. He forever has to live with the memory of seeing those he loved more than anything shot down before his eyes.

That day Frank Castle did die and the Punisher was born. He is now determined to rid the world of evil...to punish all those that commit evil acts. He feels it is now his duty to ensure the horrible incident he had to witness doesn't happen to others. There is is no discrimination when he sets his sights on this target. Criminal scum all have the potential to kill in some way and he believes the world will be better off without their existence.

But the Punisher is still human. No one is perfect. With the unpredictability of the gunfights he becomes part of, there's no way he can account for every possible scenario. He might do his best to ensure there is no one in harm's way but it would be impossible for him to be sure someone doesn't turn up at the wrong place at the wrong time. What if while having a shootout with criminals he accidentally shoots and kills and innocent bystander? Would the Punisher be able to live with himself if he killed someone that was innocent?

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In the Ultimate Universe, this is something that does indeed happen. While convinced he was doing the right thing in protecting Nick Fury, the Punisher targeted Captain America (he wasn't gonna kill him, just shoot him in the kneecaps). Spider-Man saw this about to happen and did the only thing he could, he pushed Cap out of the way. This resulted in Spider-Man, an innocent teenager, getting shot (don't worry, he's not dead...yet).

Needless to say, the Punisher flipped out, demanding that he be punished for this.

While this was Mark Millar writing the Punisher in the Ultimate Universe, it raises the question of what would his reaction be? When I first read Ultimate Comics Avengers vs New Ultimates #4, I thought his reaction was a little extreme. It was almost comical.

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The thing to consider is, we're talking about a man who could be considered either obsessed or crazy (or more likely both). His only mission is to rid the world of the bad guys and protect the innocent. By shooting an innocent, he becomes one of those bad guys.

This almost happened before. You've probably heard about the infamous Punisher Meets Archie comic. The premise is Punisher is after a druglord known as "Red" Fever. Punisher chases him to Riverdale. It turns out he looks almost identical to Archie Andrews.

Punisher could have easily accidentally shot Archie. Imagine how heartbroken Betty and Veronica would have been. Riverdale would never be the same and it would be all Punisher's fault.

Was this polar bear guilty or innocent?
Was this polar bear guilty or innocent?

I have to admit I have not read every single Punisher appearance. In the 90s alone he was appearing practically in every Marvel book. I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been any innocents caught in the crossfire. Has it happened and I've missed it. For the Punisher to shoot and kill an innocent, it would be devastating. I could see that really pushing him over the edge (over a different edge at least). He may be an expert marksman and tactician but nobody's perfect. There's bound to be innocents caught in his one-man war against the criminal scum. When that day happens, Frank is going to need some serious counseling.

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cosmo111687

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Edited By cosmo111687
@ZORN@cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham).

Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    
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cody1984

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@ZORN said:
@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
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cody1984

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Edited By cody1984
@Pokeysteve said:
@cody1984 said:
For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

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The General was going to shut the base down as you mentioned. With the recon and patrolling Castle knew the VC were planning a major attack. The base was the last line of defense and closing it could have been the death of hundreds. Instead he tricks the General and the rest of his squad goes. 

The War was coming to an end and the General was even telling him they were going home as soon as they closed the base.  Frank's reasons weren't for saving lives it was because he was delaying the war ending for him as long as he could.  Frank not letting the base be closed costs the lives of every man posted at Valley Forge.  This was talked about heavily in the "Valley Forge" Story arc.  

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No Caption Provided
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Shadow_Thief

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 What would YOU do for a Klondike Bar, punk?
 What would YOU do for a Klondike Bar, punk?
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Edited By ARMIV

"Whoops...meh, I guess he was guilty of something".

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ZORN

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Edited By ZORN
@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
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TehFlan

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Edited By TehFlan

I think it's dumb when people try and say something a character does is "out of character". You don't get to pick and choose what counts as being in character for someone.

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ZORN

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Edited By ZORN
@Dh4niel said:

I believe Frank Castle would "punish" himself. Then we'd be freed of this silly two-dimensional character for good. If I wrote The Punisher, I'd give him a little team, a bit like the Bat-Family in the Batman comics. I'm sure there would be plenty of people that would want bloody vengeance on mob bosses and the like. A Hit-Girl style character side-kick perhaps?

Frank works best alone, and the whole punisher themed team thing for a character like Frank sounds pretty dumb and weak in my opinion.
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Mancotron

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@briangermain said:
Ok here's the deal, does he shoot the person in cold blood or just because they happoened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?  My answer he picks up his guns dusts off his skull puts on hig big boy pants and gets the F*$%K back to work! Why?  Frank Castle is an ex police officer and an ex military soldier.  I am sure in War times and possibly in the line of duty there has been times he has killed those that were "less than guilty".  Police do this all the time Some young punk kid pulls out a toy gun at a cop and is gunned down because of it., this is why all these toy guns are to have orange tips nowadays. Point... It's never good or easy to deal with when someone innocent dies in a firefight but as a soldier as a cop and as "The Punisher" it is your sworn duty to get past it. Because 9 times out of ten  more innocents will die without your intervention than with.'Nuff said.
I was going to write a nice lengthy comment but why bother when this pretty much sums it up. Also, I don't think the Punisher is insane. Definitely damaged in a bunch of ways, but I feel he's no crazier than Batman or any other "War on Crime" style vigilante. It's why I always felt ambivalent about his inclusion in the 616 Marvel Universe. Btw that Mark Millar bit sounds effin' goofy. Then again, it's Mark Millar.
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Dh4niel

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Edited By Dh4niel

I believe Frank Castle would "punish" himself. Then we'd be freed of this silly two-dimensional character for good. If I wrote The Punisher, I'd give him a little team, a bit like the Bat-Family in the Batman comics. I'm sure there would be plenty of people that would want bloody vengeance on mob bosses and the like. A Hit-Girl style character side-kick perhaps?

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JonesDeini

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@maxicere
Basically, when written correctly by writers like Ennis/Aaron you'll see the tangible effects of it on Frank, but at the end of the day he lives for his mission. It's interesting to see all the different interpretation of Frank people on CV have. I think more people should read Ennis/Aaron's run to really get a fully three dimensional Frank. 
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Ult_GBandit

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Edited By Ult_GBandit

He shot a cop in the movie remember?

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maxicere

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Edited By maxicere

All superheroes kills innocents always in big battles and nobody say nothing... Lets The Punisher do his work...

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JonesDeini

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@LB70145 said:
I want to say that the Punisher has shot/killed innocents before. His policy is that if he does kill an innocent he will do the time in jail for it.
That sounds like Frank. I'm honestly more familiar with Max Frank than 616 these days and he was willing to off himself/be killed/serve time. As far as 616 Frank goes I think that the War Zone movie dealt with this well. He was willing to let the FBI Agents wife "Punish Him"
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@Solitaire: In Bruges is one of the few movies that I can appreciate Collin Farrell. That movie is surprisingly funny, but emotional!
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Edited By Solitaire

I imagine if this ever came to pass, it would play out very much like the movie "In Bruges".

For those of you that haven't seen the film, the story centers around a hit man that accidentally kills a young boy while on a job, and his subsequent attempt to deal with the soul crushing guilt he feels as a result.

Although, considering why the Punisher began his crusade in the first place, and his absolute intolerance for anyone who breaks the law, if this were to ever happen don't think his psyche could take it.

Which would then lead to one of the most skilled and deadly assassins in the Marvel Universe with a shattered mind and near infinite levels of self-loathing. Honestly, I can't think of anything more dangerous.

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capfan80

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Edited By capfan80

My guess is he would just keep on with business as usual with maybe a little more self-loathing.  There is nothing he can take away from himself since he lives a life devoted to nothing but punishing the wicked.  I think that he would consider his obligation to cintinue his mission over letting himself off the hook by ending it.
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Edited By The Impersonator

Punisher: To Punish And Protect.

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@cody1984 said:
For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

No Caption Provided
The General was going to shut the base down as you mentioned. With the recon and patrolling Castle knew the VC were planning a major attack. The base was the last line of defense and closing it could have been the death of hundreds. Instead he tricks the General and the rest of his squad goes. 
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undeadpool

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Edited By undeadpool

There was a Punisher: MAX story arc that involved this very thing. It was the arc right after Ennis left the book and some Mexican cartel bosses tricked Punisher into thinking he'd shot a little girl (she was already dead and someone was setting off fireworks behind one-way glass), and what happened was he immediately went home and put a gun between his teeth. I won't spoil what happened to prevent him from pulling the trigger, but I think the people saying he'd just shrug it off are underselling the fact that he goes out of his way to never harm an innocent (he'll intimidate them, sure, but he'd never actually pull that trigger). If the Punisher actually killed an innocent, he'd kill himself because he'd have become the thing he hates. That's why you couldn't kill people in the Punisher game on Xbox and why anyone who complained about that clearly hasn't read the character.

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cosmo111687

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Edited By cosmo111687
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
 You get that creep, Molly!
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DarkMatter23

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Edited By DarkMatter23

I know it may read as knit-picky, but you have to ask yourselves, "What is being innocent?". The punisher has killed people with drug addictions who may or may have not stolen or robbed in order to pay for drugs. If he kills a drug addict, whom hasn't done either of the aforementioned, is he killing an innocent? Is it a matter of punishing people who just break the law? To delve even deeper, for example, are people who break the law by texting, while driving, innocent? If the punisher saw some  Paris Hilton type, texting in her Suburban tank, would he think to himself, " I'm gonna kill this person before she runs into a school bus". I think, 75% of the population break the law, to an extent, everyday. So, I guess, there may be some moral discrepancy as to what being innocent is.

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Mr. Dead Pool

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Frank is the Jason Voorhees of criminals.He just kills them without really caring if he helps people or not. Sure if it just so happens that his actions help innocent people he won't have a problem with that, but his mission is to punish the guilty and thats what he does. If he kills an innocent he might kill himself because that contradicts his mission thus making him guilty in his own eyes.
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InnerVenom123

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Edited By InnerVenom123

Frank would freak the hell out.

Also, he punched that Polar Bear so it would get pissed off and then lead a pack to eat Ma Gnucci's arms and legs. The polar bear wasn't guilty or innocent: it was a weapon.

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FadeToBlackBolt

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Moot point, no one's innocent. Even kids will one day grow up to be corrupt.

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Mumbles

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Edited By Mumbles

the bear was guilty

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Chris2KLee

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He'd snap, kinda like he did when he thought he killed a little girl by accident in the story line following Ennis's run. Make no mistake, Frank is kind of a sociopath, society is just sorta lucky he chooses to feed his sickness by hunting the wicked. But that said, his particular psychosis also means he keeps a laser focus on the task at hand. He will never get into a firefight where civilians would ever be at risk. Like Batman, The Punisher preps to the Nth degree.

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RedheadedAtrocitus

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@NightFang: I believe they did when he accidentally killed one of the undercover agents tracking down the man who would become Jigsaw.
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Yes he would Punish himself, I say the Ultimate comics write Punisher better than the 616 writers do because he literally breaks down whenever he harms an innocent, like when he recently shot Peter Parker. He literally begged the cops to Punish him.

 

Written correctly Frank will punish himself for hurting innocent people, written incorrectly he end up looking like Jason Todd did when he was written by Grant Morrison

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Doctor!!!!!

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Edited By Doctor!!!!!

Frank is one of the easiest superheroes to be... if you had a arsenal on you.

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Edited By SoA

he was killed/harmed a innocents a few times, in a wolverine punisher team up he shot a guy
stray shot , he took guy to hospital, the punisher MAX story that been said already , and the mainstream story where under brainwashing strangled a innocent woman , he atoned and never took joy in harming an innocent always chastising himself  and either goes to the authorities or contemplates suicide  or fears he may become those he punishes . frank has been one of my all time favorites because he will accept responsibility for his actions . not a whole lot of heroes do especially the super powered ones .

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ImperiousRix

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I think it depends on who is writing Frank.  With some writers, Frank is much more sympathetic.  He's a guy who feels that, not only are the criminals guilty, but he himself carries the guilt of having put his family in that position.  Written correctly (in my opinion) he becomes a man searching for atonement through ridding the streets of bad guys.


When written INCORRECTLY (which seems to happen more and more often), Frank is a guy who has taken his obsession with his family's death to the extreme.  Most look at him as insane and he pretty much acts insane.  Sadly, I think if Frank ever did shoot someone innocent, it'd be whilst one of these writers was writing him and he would, as Millar made him do in Ultimates, "flip out".

*note* I actually do remember in an issue of Punisher War Journal by Matt Fraction and Ariel Olivetti where, drugged by Hate Monger, Frank actually DID kill a young journalist who was the love interest of Stuart Clarke (his partner) at the time.  However, Frank seemed more intent on forgetting the encounter and hiding his involvement from Clarke rather than "punishing" himself.  Weird...
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Edited By Roninidas

I think he would be upset, but his drive to complete his own mission/ vendetta against evil would win.  I think he would continue on and I think it may happen again and again  until finally the superhero community would have to intervene to take him in.  That would be a pretty good story.
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Well you wouldn't be able to walk if you were worried about crushing few ants beneath your feet. 



HURRAY FOR  FRANK CASTLE!
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Edited By sunber

I think it has been answered(not exactly maybe) at the end of The Punisher kills the Marvel universe when he realizes that he just killed Matt Murdock, who was his lawyer and probably a completely innocent man in his eyes, and kills himself.
So, yes I think he would kill himself sooner later for such an act or gets himself killed on a suicide mission.

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sj_esposito

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Edited By sj_esposito
@HellionVulcan said:
I'm sure he has shot an innocent & he surrendered & went to jail or something but he ended up killing/Injured inmates but i'm sure he has by mistake hurt innocents but his hatred of the badguys over does his compassion or any mercy he may want to show .
This definitely happened somewhere -- I just can't remember what series or issue.

Also, I think -- and I'm not completely sure -- that Frank squared off with Bullseye in a mini series and while Bullseye was eluding Frank, Frank was killing people who were 'in the way' and they turned out to be Bullseye's hit-targets. So, Bullseye forced Frank to kill the marks and got paid for it.
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deactivated-5c467f056031b

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I honestly think he'd probably kill himself.

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cody1984

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Edited By cody1984
@Soldier zero said:
@cody1984 said:
The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.
Pretty much like any grown up character that appeared on the Runaways.
True
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cody1984

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Edited By cody1984

For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

No Caption Provided

If someone angers the Punisher enough he will ignore the fact that killing them will result in the death/s of an innocent/s.  

No Caption Provided
No Caption Provided

Frank is no saint by any definition of the word.  He will try to protect innocents but at the end of the day punishing the guilty is what he is all about.  The Punisher killing an innocent will bother him to some degree but it hasn't stopped his mission.    


@CATPANEXE said:

Not that I encourage people to run around firing bullets down alleyways, but in his defense, I'm pretty sure the accidental death of an innocent by anysuper heroes arsenal or other factors like debri from their battles is a given, and has happened to many of the darkest and lightest, and was the entirebasis of Civil War.

Agreed.
47 bystanders died in the last battle of the civil war yet I didn't see many of the so called "heroes" upset about that.  
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buttersdaman000

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Edited By buttersdaman000

He would be a hypocrite if he didnt kill himself

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Woodclaw

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Edited By Woodclaw
@cody1984 said:
The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.
Pretty much like any grown up character that appeared on the Runaways.
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Edited By CATPANEXE

Not that I encourage people to run around firing bullets down alleyways, but in his defense, I'm pretty sure the accidental death of an innocent by any
super heroes arsenal or other factors like debri from their battles is a given, and has happened to many of the darkest and lightest, and was the entire
basis of Civil War.

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cody1984

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@cmaprice said:


No Caption Provided

No Caption Provided

The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  
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cody1984

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Edited By cody1984

Frank would just go back to business without it bothering him much.


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SC

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Edited By SC  Moderator

"No one is innocent, even the innocent!" - some drunk guy outside sleeping under a bench.

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xerox_kitty

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Edited By xerox_kitty

I'm really surprised this hasn't happened... Really REALLY surprised!      
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cody1984

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Edited By cody1984
@War Killer said:
To me, Steve Rogers put it best when it comes to the Punisher...
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Captain America is a complete moron and The Punisher was was way out of character during the civil war.
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Arevish

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Edited By Arevish

You have to do what you have to do punny!

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Edited By nobodythere

Don't feel Frank would kill himself or turn himself in if he killed someone that turned out to be innocent. I think he'd do all he could to help the grieving family and probably work in a way closer to Batman.