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Off My Mind: What if the Punisher Shot an Innocent?

It's his job to punish the guilty but what if he became guilty himself?

The Punisher has been seen as both hero and villain. Many simply call him an anti-hero. He may be a killer but he is on a mission he feels is just. There's no denying that Frank Castle has suffered through the worst thing that could happen to a man. While living a normal life, he and his family stumbled across a gangland killing. To avoid having witness that could identify them, the killers attempted to do away with Frank, his wife and children. Luckily (or unluckily) Frank managed to survive. He forever has to live with the memory of seeing those he loved more than anything shot down before his eyes.

That day Frank Castle did die and the Punisher was born. He is now determined to rid the world of evil...to punish all those that commit evil acts. He feels it is now his duty to ensure the horrible incident he had to witness doesn't happen to others. There is is no discrimination when he sets his sights on this target. Criminal scum all have the potential to kill in some way and he believes the world will be better off without their existence.

But the Punisher is still human. No one is perfect. With the unpredictability of the gunfights he becomes part of, there's no way he can account for every possible scenario. He might do his best to ensure there is no one in harm's way but it would be impossible for him to be sure someone doesn't turn up at the wrong place at the wrong time. What if while having a shootout with criminals he accidentally shoots and kills and innocent bystander? Would the Punisher be able to live with himself if he killed someone that was innocent?

In the Ultimate Universe, this is something that does indeed happen. While convinced he was doing the right thing in protecting Nick Fury, the Punisher targeted Captain America (he wasn't gonna kill him, just shoot him in the kneecaps). Spider-Man saw this about to happen and did the only thing he could, he pushed Cap out of the way. This resulted in Spider-Man, an innocent teenager, getting shot (don't worry, he's not dead...yet).

Needless to say, the Punisher flipped out, demanding that he be punished for this.

While this was Mark Millar writing the Punisher in the Ultimate Universe, it raises the question of what would his reaction be? When I first read Ultimate Comics Avengers vs New Ultimates #4, I thought his reaction was a little extreme. It was almost comical.

The thing to consider is, we're talking about a man who could be considered either obsessed or crazy (or more likely both). His only mission is to rid the world of the bad guys and protect the innocent. By shooting an innocent, he becomes one of those bad guys.

This almost happened before. You've probably heard about the infamous Punisher Meets Archie comic. The premise is Punisher is after a druglord known as "Red" Fever. Punisher chases him to Riverdale. It turns out he looks almost identical to Archie Andrews.

Punisher could have easily accidentally shot Archie. Imagine how heartbroken Betty and Veronica would have been. Riverdale would never be the same and it would be all Punisher's fault.

Was this polar bear guilty or innocent?

I have to admit I have not read every single Punisher appearance. In the 90s alone he was appearing practically in every Marvel book. I'm a little surprised that there hasn't been any innocents caught in the crossfire. Has it happened and I've missed it. For the Punisher to shoot and kill an innocent, it would be devastating. I could see that really pushing him over the edge (over a different edge at least). He may be an expert marksman and tactician but nobody's perfect. There's bound to be innocents caught in his one-man war against the criminal scum. When that day happens, Frank is going to need some serious counseling.

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Posted by Undeadpool

There was a Punisher: MAX story arc that involved this very thing. It was the arc right after Ennis left the book and some Mexican cartel bosses tricked Punisher into thinking he'd shot a little girl (she was already dead and someone was setting off fireworks behind one-way glass), and what happened was he immediately went home and put a gun between his teeth. I won't spoil what happened to prevent him from pulling the trigger, but I think the people saying he'd just shrug it off are underselling the fact that he goes out of his way to never harm an innocent (he'll intimidate them, sure, but he'd never actually pull that trigger). If the Punisher actually killed an innocent, he'd kill himself because he'd have become the thing he hates. That's why you couldn't kill people in the Punisher game on Xbox and why anyone who complained about that clearly hasn't read the character.

Staff
Posted by Pokeysteve
@cody1984 said:
For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

The General was going to shut the base down as you mentioned. With the recon and patrolling Castle knew the VC were planning a major attack. The base was the last line of defense and closing it could have been the death of hundreds. Instead he tricks the General and the rest of his squad goes. 
Posted by The Impersonator

Punisher: To Punish And Protect.

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Posted by capfan80

My guess is he would just keep on with business as usual with maybe a little more self-loathing.  There is nothing he can take away from himself since he lives a life devoted to nothing but punishing the wicked.  I think that he would consider his obligation to cintinue his mission over letting himself off the hook by ending it.
Posted by Solitaire

I imagine if this ever came to pass, it would play out very much like the movie "In Bruges".

For those of you that haven't seen the film, the story centers around a hit man that accidentally kills a young boy while on a job, and his subsequent attempt to deal with the soul crushing guilt he feels as a result.

Although, considering why the Punisher began his crusade in the first place, and his absolute intolerance for anyone who breaks the law, if this were to ever happen don't think his psyche could take it.

Which would then lead to one of the most skilled and deadly assassins in the Marvel Universe with a shattered mind and near infinite levels of self-loathing. Honestly, I can't think of anything more dangerous.

Posted by DarkMatter23
@Solitaire: In Bruges is one of the few movies that I can appreciate Collin Farrell. That movie is surprisingly funny, but emotional!
Posted by JonesDeini
@LB70145 said:
I want to say that the Punisher has shot/killed innocents before. His policy is that if he does kill an innocent he will do the time in jail for it.
That sounds like Frank. I'm honestly more familiar with Max Frank than 616 these days and he was willing to off himself/be killed/serve time. As far as 616 Frank goes I think that the War Zone movie dealt with this well. He was willing to let the FBI Agents wife "Punish Him"
Posted by maxicere

All superheroes kills innocents always in big battles and nobody say nothing... Lets The Punisher do his work...

Posted by Ult_GBandit

He shot a cop in the movie remember?

Posted by JonesDeini
@maxicere
Basically, when written correctly by writers like Ennis/Aaron you'll see the tangible effects of it on Frank, but at the end of the day he lives for his mission. It's interesting to see all the different interpretation of Frank people on CV have. I think more people should read Ennis/Aaron's run to really get a fully three dimensional Frank. 
Edited by Dh4niel

I believe Frank Castle would "punish" himself. Then we'd be freed of this silly two-dimensional character for good. If I wrote The Punisher, I'd give him a little team, a bit like the Bat-Family in the Batman comics. I'm sure there would be plenty of people that would want bloody vengeance on mob bosses and the like. A Hit-Girl style character side-kick perhaps?

Posted by Mancotron
@briangermain said:
Ok here's the deal, does he shoot the person in cold blood or just because they happoened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?  My answer he picks up his guns dusts off his skull puts on hig big boy pants and gets the F*$%K back to work! Why?  Frank Castle is an ex police officer and an ex military soldier.  I am sure in War times and possibly in the line of duty there has been times he has killed those that were "less than guilty".  Police do this all the time Some young punk kid pulls out a toy gun at a cop and is gunned down because of it., this is why all these toy guns are to have orange tips nowadays. Point... It's never good or easy to deal with when someone innocent dies in a firefight but as a soldier as a cop and as "The Punisher" it is your sworn duty to get past it. Because 9 times out of ten  more innocents will die without your intervention than with.'Nuff said.
I was going to write a nice lengthy comment but why bother when this pretty much sums it up. Also, I don't think the Punisher is insane. Definitely damaged in a bunch of ways, but I feel he's no crazier than Batman or any other "War on Crime" style vigilante. It's why I always felt ambivalent about his inclusion in the 616 Marvel Universe. Btw that Mark Millar bit sounds effin' goofy. Then again, it's Mark Millar.
Edited by ZORN
@Dh4niel said:

I believe Frank Castle would "punish" himself. Then we'd be freed of this silly two-dimensional character for good. If I wrote The Punisher, I'd give him a little team, a bit like the Bat-Family in the Batman comics. I'm sure there would be plenty of people that would want bloody vengeance on mob bosses and the like. A Hit-Girl style character side-kick perhaps?

Frank works best alone, and the whole punisher themed team thing for a character like Frank sounds pretty dumb and weak in my opinion.
Posted by TehFlan

I think it's dumb when people try and say something a character does is "out of character". You don't get to pick and choose what counts as being in character for someone.

Posted by ZORN
@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Posted by ARMIV

"Whoops...meh, I guess he was guilty of something".

Edited by Shadow_Thief

 What would YOU do for a Klondike Bar, punk?
Posted by cody1984
@Pokeysteve said:
@cody1984 said:
For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

The General was going to shut the base down as you mentioned. With the recon and patrolling Castle knew the VC were planning a major attack. The base was the last line of defense and closing it could have been the death of hundreds. Instead he tricks the General and the rest of his squad goes. 

The War was coming to an end and the General was even telling him they were going home as soon as they closed the base.  Frank's reasons weren't for saving lives it was because he was delaying the war ending for him as long as he could.  Frank not letting the base be closed costs the lives of every man posted at Valley Forge.  This was talked about heavily in the "Valley Forge" Story arc.  

Posted by cody1984
@ZORN said:
@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
Posted by cosmo111687
@ZORN@cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham).

Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    
Posted by cody1984
@cosmo111687 said:

@ZORN@cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:
@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    

Either Batman is a coward or a moron when it comes to the Joker take your pick since either way it adds up to the deaths of a lot of innocent people which wouldn't happen if the Joker was going against the Punisher since Frank would just waste him.  Also Batman takes the law into his own hands every time he goes out and fights crime.  Batman is a vigilante after all. If the Punisher was in Gotham and was able to do his work it would be the best thing that ever happened to that city.    

   
Posted by Dr_Cheesesteak

He'd punish himself.  But he's a masochist, so he'd enjoy it. 

Edited by cosmo111687
@cody1984@cody1984 said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@ZORN@cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    

Either Batman is a coward or a moron when it comes to the Joker take your pick since either way it adds up to the deaths of a lot of innocent people which wouldn't happen if the Joker was going against the Punisher since Frank would just waste him.  Also Batman takes the law into his own hands every time he goes out and fights crime.  Batman is a vigilante after all. If the Punisher was in Gotham and was able to do his work it would be the best thing that ever happened to that city.    

   
Well, first-off, I think that in a battle between Punisher and Joker, we all know who would have the last laugh. Punisher is too blind and his weaknesses too flagrant for Joker not to manipulate or provoke. Don't underestimate Joker. (thus my comment, earlier, that if Punisher was in Gotham, he wouldn't survive long.)

Joker is a serious threat and you can fairly debate whither it's better to kill him or not, but attributing Batman's choice to cowardice is overly simplistic and, really, misses the point.


And Batman bends some rules, but he doesn't break them. Murdering somebody would definitely be breaking them.

edit: And I can't imagine how poorly Punisher would've handled No Man's Land.
Posted by Billdevil

Frank's an interesting nutball. 

Posted by cody1984
@cosmo111687 said:
@cody1984@cody1984 said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@ZORN@cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

 You get that creep, Molly!
If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.
Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  
Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    

Either Batman is a coward or a moron when it comes to the Joker take your pick since either way it adds up to the deaths of a lot of innocent people which wouldn't happen if the Joker was going against the Punisher since Frank would just waste him.  Also Batman takes the law into his own hands every time he goes out and fights crime.  Batman is a vigilante after all. If the Punisher was in Gotham and was able to do his work it would be the best thing that ever happened to that city.    

   
Well, first-off, I think that in a battle between Punisher and Joker, we all know who would have the last laugh. Punisher is too blind and his weaknesses too flagrant for Joker not to manipulate or provoke. Don't underestimate Joker. (thus my comment, earlier, that if Punisher was in Gotham, he wouldn't survive long.)

Joker is a serious threat and you can fairly debate whither it's better to kill him or not, but attributing Batman's choice to cowardice is overly simplistic and, really, misses the point.


And Batman bends some rules, but he doesn't break them. Murdering somebody would definitely be breaking them.

edit: And I can't imagine how poorly Punisher would've handled No Man's Land.

The Punisher would kill Joker if they fought anyone who believes otherwise really doesn't know the Punisher at all.  The fact you think the Punisher has some great weakness that the Joker is going to exploit easily proves my point.  

The Joker is also not a serious threat at all he's a chump.  The only reason he is a threat is no one has the balls to just do what needs to be done and kill him.  I also standby my point earlier that Batman is either a coward or a moron when it comes to dealing with the Joker.  

Batman is a vigilante so he is already breaking the rules not bending them.  If you talking about personal rules fine (although Batman's are beyond stupid) but than again Punisher doesn't break his either.  
Edited by cosmo111687
@cody1984: I guess there's not much point going on with this as I think neither of us are going to agree with the other (out of pride, reason, whatever...)

But...personally I believe that Joker is a far more formidable foe than The Punisher. If all it took was the will to kill and a gun to take out the Joker, it would've happened long ago. But, he's virtually invincible, just as Batman's virtually invincible (not due to superpowers or anything; they're just both incredibly good at what they do). Anybody who doesn't understand this doesn't understand the Joker or the Batman mythos.

And about Punisher not breaking his own rules, well, that's because his rules don't make sense. This goes back to my first comment. He believes that it's permissible to act above the law and kill people as he sees fit, but if he kills an innocent, then he'll allow himself to go to jail. That's one heck of a double-standard and a complete contradiction of his principles. If he was consistent with his principles, he'd shoot himself. Or, better yet, he would show some courage and try to support the good guys (and not murder at will) rather than act like a maniac and pose a threat to everyone.
Posted by cody1984
@cosmo111687 said:
@cody1984: But...personally I believe that Joker is a far more formidable foe than The Punisher. If all it took was the will to kill and a gun to take out the Joker, it would've happened long ago. But, he's virtually invincible, just as Batman's virtually invincible (not due to superpowers or anything; they're just both incredibly good at what they do). Anybody who doesn't understand this doesn't understand the Joker or the Batman mythos. And about Punisher not breaking his own rules, well, that's because his rules don't make sense. This goes back to my first comment. He believes that it's permissible to act above the law and kill people as he sees fit, but if he kills an innocent, then he'll allow himself to go to jail. That's one heck of a double-standard and a complete contradiction of his principles. If he was consistent with his principles, he'd shoot himself. Or, better yet, he would show some courage and try to support the good guys (and not murder at will) rather than act like a maniac and pose a threat to everyone.
The Joker is not invincible.  The only reason why he isn't dead is because he is a fan favorite villain that is the reason why.  There are more deadly opponents the Punisher and Batman have faced than the Joker.   The Joker would be considered chump by the Punisher because he's used to dealing with nut jobs and by being considered a chump that doesn't the Punisher would underestimate him it means the Punisher wouldn't have any respect for him.  

The Punisher rules are pretty simple he doesn't just go around gunning everyone down like a lot of people believe.  He won't kill cops unless they are corrupt and several times he has let corrupt cops slide.  The same goes for public officials and even the President of the United States who was involved with an attempt on the Punisher's life.  

His main goal is to continue his war to punish the guilty if someone who gets hurt and wasn't suppose to the Punisher regrets that but it won't stop him from continuing his war.  Also he saved the EU from a nuclear bomb before and saved spiderman's and several other "heroes" lives more than a few times.  So the guy is not a danger to the publics safety.  In fact he's less of a danger to the public safety than most superheroes since they refuse to kill mass murdering super villains no matter how many times they break out of jail and have showed they are beyond hope. 

As far as the supposed "good guys" go he views them as idiots for not doing what needs to be done and they view him as nuts so there not going to start working together constantly.  The Punisher has been on teams before but it always ends with him either leaving the team.  
Posted by The Velvet Rabbit

personally, punisher's hit-and-miss for me - I don't really dig him half of the time, but I accept that's because he's not always well-written.   of course, while i don't really care for cap either, he's technically right - frank castle is insane.   I don't hate the character, but there's always this big fight between whether he's an anti-hero or an out-and-out villain - and while I can't really speak for either, the words 'mass murderer' never present a shining defense.   having said that, I did think the ending (hokey as the rest of it was) to 'Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe' was pretty touching.   then again, much as I love D.D. (sometimes), I'm not sure why Frank would've killed himself over that - it's no secret that Matt Murdock's not exactly opposed to killing either.

Posted by Harlekin
@Pokeysteve said:
And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 
Cap was part of the force that took down Onslaught who was going to kill everything so Cap has saved at the very least 6,000,000,000+ people. Plus his precipitation in WW2 and different Marvel events it's probably way over that number. So I think Cap has saved more people.
Posted by They Killed Cap!
@LB70145

I was thinking the same thing. I seem to think in a recent arc, the past five years he did this and he hated himself for it.
Posted by AbsMan2

Here's what I've always thought about the Punisher in general, please tell me if it's not logical for any reason:

What does the Punisher use to determine what's right and wrong? He uses the law, right? If it was his conscience, or some higher authority, he would have had a lot of problems with what he did already, so I don't think that's the case. So he decided to end those who do bad enough things to have their lives ended according to the law, and to some extent, that's understandable. But how does he end those people? He ends them whenever he feels like it with whatever means he can. He does not use due process or really any trial whatsoever, he just KILLS THEM. Now some of these people he sees doing really bad things could have thought to themselves when they were doing said things that they were perfectly right for doing them for a whole host of reasons. But Punisher doesn't care WHY they thought they were doing things outside of the law, he only cares THAT they were doing things outside of the law. Hold on, I'm almost done here. If one were to take Punisher's line of thinking to its natural conclusion, who would be the person who killed the most people outside of the law (or at least ONE of the people who killed the most outside of the law). Well, of course, it would be the Punisher himself.
Conclusion: The Punisher should have shot himself already, because the law considers the people he has killed to be innocent (until proven guilty).

Posted by cody1984
@Harlekin said:
@Pokeysteve said:
And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 
Cap was part of the force that took down Onslaught who was going to kill everything so Cap has saved at the very least 6,000,000,000+ people. Plus his precipitation in WW2 and different Marvel events it's probably way over that number. So I think Cap has saved more people.
That was a group effort not Captain America alone.  
Posted by Project_Worm

If he wanted to be killed because he shot an innocent person who did not die I cannot see him not going completely berserk if he killed an innocent person.

Posted by Pokeysteve
@cody1984 said:
@Pokeysteve said:
@cody1984 said:
For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

The General was going to shut the base down as you mentioned. With the recon and patrolling Castle knew the VC were planning a major attack. The base was the last line of defense and closing it could have been the death of hundreds. Instead he tricks the General and the rest of his squad goes. 

The War was coming to an end and the General was even telling him they were going home as soon as they closed the base.  Frank's reasons weren't for saving lives it was because he was delaying the war ending for him as long as he could.  Frank not letting the base be closed costs the lives of every man posted at Valley Forge.  This was talked about heavily in the "Valley Forge" Story arc.  

No I remember that but somewhere towards the beginning in the first issue I think he talks about the VC invasion. I don't own the book and haven't read it in a few months so I can't really argue with you. I'm sure he had a good reason for the General who he technically didn't kill. Great story though. 

@Harlekin said:
@Pokeysteve said:
And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 
Cap was part of the force that took down Onslaught who was going to kill everything so Cap has saved at the very least 6,000,000,000+ people. Plus his precipitation in WW2 and different Marvel events it's probably way over that number. So I think Cap has saved more people.
Like Cody said that was a team thing. Not teams just the men. Castle has killed thousands. How many lives would those thousands have ruined. It's almost exponential. And when I say ruined I don't just mean dead. The rapists and drug pushers destroy lives as well. Nothing against Cap though who's much more of team player.
Posted by Pokeysteve
@AbsMan2 said:
Here's what I've always thought about the Punisher in general, please tell me if it's not logical for any reason:What does the Punisher use to determine what's right and wrong? He uses the law, right? If it was his conscience, or some higher authority, he would have had a lot of problems with what he did already, so I don't think that's the case. So he decided to end those who do bad enough things to have their lives ended according to the law, and to some extent, that's understandable. But how does he end those people? He ends them whenever he feels like it with whatever means he can. He does not use due process or really any trial whatsoever, he just KILLS THEM. Now some of these people he sees doing really bad things could have thought to themselves when they were doing said things that they were perfectly right for doing them for a whole host of reasons. But Punisher doesn't care WHY they thought they were doing things outside of the law, he only cares THAT they were doing things outside of the law. Hold on, I'm almost done here. If one were to take Punisher's line of thinking to its natural conclusion, who would be the person who killed the most people outside of the law (or at least ONE of the people who killed the most outside of the law). Well, of course, it would be the Punisher himself.Conclusion: The Punisher should have shot himself already, because the law considers the people he has killed to be innocent (until proven guilty).
Pretty close I think. In many ways I see the Punisher as a Batman mirror who had his training before his loved ones were killed. He's just way more extreme haha. Castle wants to punish those that the law has failed with, doesn't care about or that have bought trials. He doesn't a hundred percent go by the law. Its what people do or could potentially do to other people. In the beginning of Welcome Back, Frank he kills a bunch of drug dealers and lets a buyer live. When he overhears the buyer talking about all the drugs that are lying around and how much he could make Frank snaps his neck. Punisher likes to prevent crimes rather than solve them afterwards. 
Posted by AbsMan2

Preventing someone's first crime by killing them is no better than killing anyone else, because you never really know if someone's going to decide at the last minute to not go through with it. If the law can fail, and he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, then what DOES he go by? And if he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, shouldn't he shoot himself just like he's shot all those other people for not going a hundred percent by the law? Those are the questions I've always asked, and the reason I can never consider Punisher a hero. If he goes by whatever the heck he decides is right, he's absolutely no better than the people he kills, who are just going by whatever they decide helps them. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it. As someone who can't claim to be an EXPERT on Punisher, it's nice to see a reasonable fan perspective.

Posted by cody1984
@AbsMan2 said:
Preventing someone's first crime by killing them is no better than killing anyone else, because you never really know if someone's going to decide at the last minute to not go through with it. If the law can fail, and he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, then what DOES he go by? And if he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, shouldn't he shoot himself just like he's shot all those other people for not going a hundred percent by the law? Those are the questions I've always asked, and the reason I can never consider Punisher a hero. If he goes by whatever the heck he decides is right, he's absolutely no better than the people he kills, who are just going by whatever they decide helps them. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it. As someone who can't claim to be an EXPERT on Punisher, it's nice to see a reasonable fan perspective.

Punisher really doesn't care about the morals, ethics, or laws of a society.  If someone is in his view scum he will the vast majority of the time kill them.  Now when I say scum they have to have wronged others not just be a*******.  The Punisher can be preemptive like the scan below, however the vast majority of the time he goes after people he knows did something wrong.

Posted by Deadcool

I am agree with Millar, that would happen
Posted by AbsMan2

 @ cody1984

Okay, cool, but then what makes him better than any of the insane criminals out there? Both are just doing whatever they think is right, not following any law. What gives him the right to kill people and not them? And you can't say they're "the bad guys" doing "bad stuff" if there's nothing to define bad. That's really just my point. If he was a hero, it would be for following something that's actually right, and the best way to follow the only code he's ever even seemed to acknowledge is to kill himself. So he can't be a living hero either way. Now if you like him as a villain, that's another story. The fact that he takes out people that might do or have done "bad" things almost all the time he kills is simply convenient for the real heroes.

Posted by LB70145
@cody1984: I am pretty sure that it has been confirmed that Frank is certifiably insane. PTSD, Sociopathic tendencies, Antisocial and I am pretty sure overwrought with Paranoia.
Posted by LB70145
@cosmo111687: Believe me, not a big fan of his ethics. He is an extremely psychologically damaged individual. The same as Batman. Batman isn't exactly the shining example of justice either.
Posted by weaponmaster

Considering that the Punisher breaks the law every time he shoots at someone or brandishes his weapons or kills someone or illegally surveils someone, etc, he should have, in all good conscience, "punished" himself a long time ago
Posted by Matthevv

The punisher is simply the worst hero of all time. He's an insane mass murderer with the ethics capacity of a 5 year old. He kills innocents all the time. He kills people for misdamenors. Here's another fun one, when he was blending in with Neo Nazi's he beats his friend's fiance' to death with a crowbar, and then afterward ends up just shooting the Neo Nazi's. There you go. Killed innocents, kills everyone. No morals, no logic. Just  an awful character.

Posted by cody1984
@AbsMan2 said:
 @ cody1984Okay, cool, but then what makes him better than any of the insane criminals out there? Both are just doing whatever they think is right, not following any law. What gives him the right to kill people and not them? And you can't say they're "the bad guys" doing "bad stuff" if there's nothing to define bad. That's really just my point. If he was a hero, it would be for following something that's actually right, and the best way to follow the only code he's ever even seemed to acknowledge is to kill himself. So he can't be a living hero either way. Now if you like him as a villain, that's another story. The fact that he takes out people that might do or have done "bad" things almost all the time he kills is simply convenient for the real heroes.
Frank understands what he does is perceived as wrong by others.  That doesn't bother Frank at all however that does not make him the same as those he fights.  Barracuda for example would kill children if that's what it takes to do a job.  Elite gunned down people who he viewed as degrading his yuppie neighborhood that includes a guy with a hot dog stand because he viewed him as trash.    General Kreigkopf was going to drop a nuclear warhead on Brussels to extort the EU, U.S., and the rest of the world.  Frank doesn't do these kind of things, yes he used a nuclear warhead before but that was to take out the island General Kreigkopf and his minions ruled.  Frank has never been a hero he's not a villain either because if he was he would've killed Spiderman and Daredevil by now or have just let them die which he could've done several times.  Most people label him an antihero and he does match the defination pretty well however I just consider him human and not a shining beacon of justice or a raving madman which most people on here try to define a lot of characters as.  I don't blame people on here for that since writers try to have there characters match these stereotypes.  
Posted by Paracelsus

Dunno-depends what you want to call an"innocent"-he's fired on petty lawbreakers such as litter bugs and jaywalkers before(though thankfully not killing hem).

Terry

Edited by cody1984
@LB70145 said:

@cody1984: I am pretty sure that it has been confirmed that Frank is certifiably insane. PTSD, Sociopathic tendencies, Antisocial and I am pretty sure overwrought with Paranoia.

Frank's not insane if he was he would've killed a lot of cops and superheroes by now since he has had the opportunity to do so many times.  The Punisher is fully aware of his actions and clearly capable of making rational choices and using logic in his dealings with others.  People might view his war as insane and we can argue all day long whether or not its morally right the point is though that his war might be viewed by others as nuts doesn't mean that Castle is insane.    

@Matthevv said:

The punisher is simply the worst hero of all time. He's an insane mass murderer with the ethics capacity of a 5 year old. He kills innocents all the time. He kills people for misdamenors. Here's another fun one, when he was blending in with Neo Nazi's he beats his friend's fiance' to death with a crowbar, and then afterward ends up just shooting the Neo Nazi's. There you go. Killed innocents, kills everyone. No morals, no logic. Just  an awful character.

Outside of him being mind controlled when has he gunned down people for committing misdemeanors?  Also the when it comes to   Tatiana Arocha Frank was being affected by a mind controlling machine making him kill.      
Posted by Matthevv

@cody1984
The last notable times I can think of Punisher killing misdamenor criminals or basically... anyone not deserving death. A couple of instances come off the top of my head.

-First appearance with spiderman, he murders a pair of purse snatchers.
- Civil war he just plain murders a bunch of registered  very minor super villains who were simply sitting in line
- Pretty much all the people he kills. Sure he gets the occasional murderer (Possibly deserving capitol punishment, debatable) The case and point is that if he really wanted to kill the biggest monster in any of his stories, he'd shoot himself.

Posted by cody1984
@Matthevv said:

@cody1984The last notable times I can think of Punisher killing misdamenor criminals or basically... anyone not deserving death. A couple of instances come off the top of my head.-First appearance with spiderman, he murders a pair of purse snatchers.- Civil war he just plain murders a bunch of registered  very minor super villains who were simply sitting in line- Pretty much all the people he kills. Sure he gets the occasional murderer (Possibly deserving capitol punishment, debatable) The case and point is that if he really wanted to kill the biggest monster in any of his stories, he'd shoot himself.

 If memory serves me right he was drugged by Jigsaw when he did that.  

Him murdering super villains is surprising or evil how exactly?  

I'm sorry but the whole he should kill himself argument is stupid.  He's killed a lot of monsters that have really deserved what they got the slavers story arc is a perfect example of this.  Like I said before the guy is definitely no hero but he is not monster that some people make him out to be.  He's a very human adult character that in 616 is surrounded by a bunch of characters that get played off as boy scouts yet they do pretty horrible things that end up killing a lot of innocent people like the final battle in the civil war story that killed dozens of innocent bystanders yet for their labeled as heroes go figure.   

Posted by cmaprice
@cody1984 said:
@cmaprice said:



The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  
Out of character, perhaps, but Joss Whedon in far from an idiot. In terms of the how often he's out of character business, I personally feel it's a grey area. Characters like Frank have been written so many ways, it feels only fitting we should see him as being absolutely nuts and inconsistent. At the core, his rules are arbitrary and full of double standards, even when written correctly.

I agree, though, that he probably wouldn't kill kids for simple theft. But let's keep in mind, the Runaways were largely rumored to have killed their own supervillain parents to take over their crime syndicate and here, they're working with Kingpin. Frank's first appearance was a mission to take out Spider-Man under false pretenses. How old was Pete at the time? The Punisher has historically often gone on bad intel. He's not nearly as calm and meticulous as his MAX depiction.
Posted by cody1984
@cmaprice said:
@cody1984 said:
@cmaprice said:



The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  
Out of character, perhaps, but Joss Whedon in far from an idiot. In terms of the how often he's out of character business, I personally feel it's a grey area. Characters like Frank have been written so many ways, it feels only fitting we should see him as being absolutely nuts and inconsistent. At the core, his rules are arbitrary and full of double standards, even when written correctly.I agree, though, that he probably wouldn't kill kids for simple theft. But let's keep in mind, the Runaways were largely rumored to have killed their own supervillain parents to take over their crime syndicate and here, they're working with Kingpin. Frank's first appearance was a mission to take out Spider-Man under false pretenses. How old was Pete at the time? The Punisher has historically often gone on bad intel. He's not nearly as calm and meticulous as his MAX depiction.
When it came to writing the Punisher Josh Whedon was an idiot.   

As far as the Punisher's going on bad intelligence goes it depends on the writer largely.  Matt Fraction had him look rather dumb most of the time Rick Remender did okay but Ennis is way out of there league when it comes to writing the Punisher.  Some people can't write certain characters at all whether its because they don't like them, they don't have the talent, and/or they just don't get the characters.  Josh Whedon's take on the Punisher is pretty straight forward idiotic approach showing that he didn't like the character, he lacks the talent to write him since he's not used to dealing with a character like him, and he doesn't get Frank Castle at all.  
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