Off My Mind: What if the Punisher Shot an Innocent?

@cmaprice said:

@cody1984 said:

@cmaprice said:

@cody1984 said:

The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  

Out of character, perhaps, but Joss Whedon in far from an idiot. In terms of the how often he's out of character business, I personally feel it's a grey area. Characters like Frank have been written so many ways, it feels only fitting we should see him as being absolutely nuts and inconsistent. At the core, his rules are arbitrary and full of double standards, even when written correctly.I agree, though, that he probably wouldn't kill kids for simple theft. But let's keep in mind, the Runaways were largely rumored to have killed their own supervillain parents to take over their crime syndicate and here, they're working with Kingpin. Frank's first appearance was a mission to take out Spider-Man under false pretenses. How old was Pete at the time? The Punisher has historically often gone on bad intel. He's not nearly as calm and meticulous as his MAX depiction.

When it came to writing the Punisher Josh Whedon was an idiot.   

As far as the Punisher's going on bad intelligence goes it depends on the writer largely.  Matt Fraction had him look rather dumb most of the time Rick Remender did okay but Ennis is way out of there league when it comes to writing the Punisher.  Some people can't write certain characters at all whether its because they don't like them, they don't have the talent, and/or they just don't get the characters.  Josh Whedon's take on the Punisher is pretty straight forward idiotic approach showing that he didn't like the character, he lacks the talent to write him since he's not used to dealing with a character like him, and he doesn't get Frank Castle at all.  

Joss Whedon knows nothing about psychological complexity, you are so right.
Be glad the Punisher won't be seen in Joss's Avengers film, then, because he'd be written like an idiot. Completely unlike the last Punisher film. Heh.

@cody1984 said:

As far as Captain America not being around goes that would be a great thing.  The character is absolutely disrespectful in every sense of the word to everyone who in real life fought in WW2.  The concept of Captain America I find disgusting to say the least since he doesn't represent the U.S. in any sense of the word since the U.S. is to diverse.  So Captain America being the poster boy of what America is suppose to be I find god awful and Stan Lee shouldn't have brought the character back.    

Triple LOLz. He represents the iconic propaganda of the American Dream of the early to mid 20th Century. If you're holding him up to the standard of having to represent every citizen, that isn't even remotely Marvel's problem. No character can do that. It doesn't at all disrespect any real soldier of the era. Cap started out diegetically as a publicity stunt for recruitment. He's a product of his time and his government. He's as much an anachronism and an ironic symbol as he is anything else. He works on many levels to many people. He's nowhere near potentially insulting as the Punisher to real life veterans. As a Vietnam vet, he fits so many negative stereotypes. But are those stereotypes used as a jumping off point as a meta critique, or are they merely exploitative? Depends on the writer, as does Cap. Read up on Isaiah Bradley. Steve Rogers is just one part of a larger picture.

None of Joss Whedon’s characters are like the Punisher.  He writes off the wall characters the vast majority of the time.  So writing a black humor, gritty, noir style character he is not familiar with.  I'd take the Punisher: War Zone movie version of Frank Castle over Joss Whedon's any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Your right Captain America represents propaganda that's why can't stand the concept of him.  Him constantly fighting clones of Hitler, his descendents, and supposedly killing Hitler is f****** disgrace full to everyone involved in WW2.  The Punisher is one guy who became the Punisher over a lifetime of events from his dropping out of the church not going through becoming a priest to his childhood, to Vietnam, and the murder of his family.  The Punisher doesn't try to represent Vietnam War veterans or any war Veterans for that matter.  As and Iraq war veteran myself I can't find the character offensive since he doesn't claim to represent me or others unlike Captain America.  My problem also isn't with Steve Rogers he could go on living or not living in the marvel universe I could care less either way my problem is with the concept of Captain America.     

@cody1984: Hey man, your favorite character is your favorite character. I don't intend on changing that. However, here are the facts.

Frank is definitely  schizophrenic. When you looked up insanity maybe you should have looked up  schizophrenia as well.   

According to  the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM-IV-TR), to be diagnosed with schizophrenia, three diagnostic criteria must be met:

1. Characteristic symptoms: Two or more of the following, each present for much of the time during a one-month period (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment).
   • Delusions
   • Hallucinations
   • Disorganized speech
   • Grossly disorganized behavior or catatonic behavior
   • Negative symptoms: Blunted affect (lack or decline in emotional response), alogia, or avolition

Here we see that Frank suffers from 1 and 5.

His view of life is purely delusional. If he truly thinks that he is acting in the right then he is delusional. A Delusion is a fixed false belief. The truth is, he kills people, takes their money/things and doesn't abide by the law in any sense of the word. Granted he kills bad people. However, fighting evil and doing good are not the same thing.

As for Negative symptoms, he has turned into a cold blooded killer. He sees the world as black and white. He doesn't feel remorse for killing, unless their innocent people. The major contention I am making with his  schizophrenia, is the fact that he has lost touch with humanity and society. He takes life with the hesitation of a hungry lion hunting a fat antelope. He is a living version of the Terminator. He is Dexter with guns.

Also, you should have looked up PTSD as well. His experience in Vietnam and the death of his family, are more than enough to physically and psychologically damage any individual. Bullying can cause PTSD. If getting shoved into a locker can cause PTSD, his time in Vietnam and the iconic death of his family is enough to cause PTSD. Did he experience traumatic events? Yes. Does he have flashbacks to those events? Yes. Emotional Numbing? Yes. Increased responses (i.e. anger issues, hypervigilance )? Yes. Lasts for more than 1 month? Yes. Does the experience cause impairment? Yes, I do believe he just met all the requirements of PTSD.

Knowing your actions alone are not evidence of sanity. Having reason and logic is not evidence of sanity. Knowing his actions and being logical is evidence that the is calculated. Even the most calculated, tactical and brilliant people can be insane. His being able to stand trial in the marvel universe is not evidence of his sanity. Most people who are considered unfit to stand trial later on stand trial. So that point is moot as well.

My personal opinion is this. All analysis and fact aside. As much as the Punisher is this giant vengeance fantasy. Vengeance does not solve anything. His family is dead. They are not coming back. Killing in their memory is no different than killing in the name of God. Killing is killing. And killing is wrong. He is not a hero in any sense of the word in my opinion. Saving lives by taking the lives of others is philosophical debate  we are not settling here. This is my opinion and I ask that you please respect that.

Frankly (no pun intended), the Punisher was a character that lived long past his entertainment value. He is a dry, one note, flat character. Ennis' Punisher has been the only readable Punisher story in recent memory. His recent stint as FrankenCastle, is evidence of his decline into self-parody. "The Punisher in the white boots" is a part of the Marvel Universe that is uninteresting and completely silly. He's the one character trying to be "dark and serious" in a crowd of colorful characters. It doesn't work. He doesn't work. The Punisher is a Joke. Sorry about the rant, but this character doesn't deserve so much attention. Again, this is just my opinion.

But don't get me wrong there are several characters like the Punisher that I disagree with and full out dislike. I am sorry if I offended you with my opinion, yet I am entitled to that opinion as you are.

@cody1984 said:

@LB70145 said:

@cody1984: I am pretty sure that it has been confirmed that Frank is certifiably insane. PTSD, Sociopathic tendencies, Antisocial and I am pretty sure overwrought with Paranoia.

Frank's not insane if he was he would've killed a lot of cops and superheroes by now since he has had the opportunity to do so many times.  The Punisher is fully aware of his actions and clearly capable of making rational choices and using logic in his dealings with others.  People might view his war as insane and we can argue all day long whether or not its morally right the point is though that his war might be viewed by others as nuts doesn't mean that Castle is insane.    

@Matthevv said:

The punisher is simply the worst hero of all time. He's an insane mass murderer with the ethics capacity of a 5 year old. He kills innocents all the time. He kills people for misdamenors. Here's another fun one, when he was blending in with Neo Nazi's he beats his friend's fiance' to death with a crowbar, and then afterward ends up just shooting the Neo Nazi's. There you go. Killed innocents, kills everyone. No morals, no logic. Just  an awful character.

Outside of him being mind controlled when has he gunned down people for committing misdemeanors?  Also the when it comes to   Tatiana Arocha Frank was being affected by a mind controlling machine making him kill.      

I'm sorry but your statements don't make any sense. How do you go from Frank not being insane to if he was insane he would be killing cops and superheros? How does being fully aware of his actions and being able to make rational choices/using logic make one sane? Maybe you should check out the definition of insanity. Also, I did not say his war is insane. HE is the one that is insane. I am not arguing morality/ethics. I am saying the guy has some serious mental issues and he is certifiably insane. Notice I do not talk about his actions specifically, I talk about the behaviors he has displayed in his history.

However, remember this is a comics universe. Does it really matter that Frank is mentally stable? No. Cause he is going to continue killing more people than most villains will.

@LB70145 said:

@cody1984: I am pretty sure that it has been confirmed that Frank is certifiably insane. PTSD, Sociopathic tendencies, Antisocial and I am pretty sure overwrought with Paranoia.

Frank's not insane if he was he would've killed a lot of cops and superheroes by now since he has had the opportunity to do so many times.  The Punisher is fully aware of his actions and clearly capable of making rational choices and using logic in his dealings with others.  People might view his war as insane and we can argue all day long whether or not its morally right the point is though that his war might be viewed by others as nuts doesn't mean that Castle is insane.    

@Matthevv said:

The punisher is simply the worst hero of all time. He's an insane mass murderer with the ethics capacity of a 5 year old. He kills innocents all the time. He kills people for misdamenors. Here's another fun one, when he was blending in with Neo Nazi's he beats his friend's fiance' to death with a crowbar, and then afterward ends up just shooting the Neo Nazi's. There you go. Killed innocents, kills everyone. No morals, no logic. Just  an awful character.

Outside of him being mind controlled when has he gunned down people for committing misdemeanors?  Also the when it comes to   Tatiana Arocha Frank was being affected by a mind controlling machine making him kill.      

@ cody1984And I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by that. I mean he states he is killing monsters and murderers, when he himself is the very thing he hunts. If his ideal self was to go hunting his ultimate prey, it'd be his actual self. The person in the most dire need of "punishment" in Frank Castle's eye, is the Punisher.

he he

@ cody1984

And I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by that. I mean he states he is killing monsters and murderers, when he himself is the very thing he hunts. If his ideal self was to go hunting his ultimate prey, it'd be his actual self. The person in the most dire need of "punishment" in Frank Castle's eye, is the Punisher.

didnt he go totally off the wall for a short while back in the day and kill or "punish" someone for j-walking

@cody1984 said:

@Matthevv said:

@cody1984The last notable times I can think of Punisher killing misdamenor criminals or basically... anyone not deserving death. A couple of instances come off the top of my head.-First appearance with spiderman, he murders a pair of purse snatchers.- Civil war he just plain murders a bunch of registered  very minor super villains who were simply sitting in line- Pretty much all the people he kills. Sure he gets the occasional murderer (Possibly deserving capitol punishment, debatable) The case and point is that if he really wanted to kill the biggest monster in any of his stories, he'd shoot himself.

 If memory serves me right he was drugged by Jigsaw when he did that.  

Him murdering super villains is surprising or evil how exactly?  

I'm sorry but the whole he should kill himself argument is stupid.  He's killed a lot of monsters that have really deserved what they got the slavers story arc is a perfect example of this.  Like I said before the guy is definitely no hero but he is not monster that some people make him out to be.  He's a very human adult character that in 616 is surrounded by a bunch of characters that get played off as boy scouts yet they do pretty horrible things that end up killing a lot of innocent people like the final battle in the civil war story that killed dozens of innocent bystanders yet for their labeled as heroes go figure.   

The murder of the minor super villains standing in line was surprising because it was unwarranted, and evil because it was completely unjust and in the wrong.  Not all villains deserve death, just as not all heroes deserve to continue going. Frank Castle being a great example of that. If you feel an argument is "Stupid" you should probably provide some proof to the matter, otherwise it just sounds silly or you're going for an off the cuff trolling attempt, which I doubt you actually are. But in response to the rest of your argument, irrelevant, we aren't talking about any other hero at the moment, just punisher. What spiderman or captain america does is different. If you want to use them in argument, here's a critical difference, when someone get's hurt on Spidey's watch, he's remorseful because he's failed his duty as a hero. Punisher simply goes to find more people to kill. Further, if Jigsaw drugged Punisher (which I read it again, he didn't) that would complicate the logic used by punisher even more. If he can be let off for murder due to the fact that he was drugged, does he have to let off all the other people he's killed because they were on drugs? Nope, he murders them without checking. He just murders, doesn't matter his logic, he is simply a mass murderer, there's no greater good or logic in it. There would be no good in the world if everyone handled thing like punisher, thankfully, no one does.

Just saying he should kill himself is stupid if we went by that logic just about every "hero" and every villain in comics should've offed themselves by now since they have all done horrible things.  You keep comparing him to heroes that is why I bring them up.  Not only that but the Punisher is not a hero he is a straight vigilante who could care less if he's viewed as one of the good guys.  Since you brought up Captain America and Spiderman fine let's look at what happened during the civil war.  The big battle they had at the end tore up NYC and killed 47 innocent bystanders because of their nonsense. I believe the Jigsaw part was ret conned later it's been while though since I read comics from that far back.  I also didn't use that as an excuse for him killing scum.  I brought that up to explain why he shot at innocent people.  In the comic book world it would be a great thing if the heroes acted like the Punisher since there would be no more joker running around killing people, there would be no more Dr. Doom trying to conquer the world, and there would be no more Loki screwing up the world for his own amusement.  So Frank's way of doing things makes absolute sense considering how many villains break out of jail with ease and have been shown repeatedly they will not stop until they are dead.     

@Matthevv said:

@cody1984The last notable times I can think of Punisher killing misdamenor criminals or basically... anyone not deserving death. A couple of instances come off the top of my head.-First appearance with spiderman, he murders a pair of purse snatchers.- Civil war he just plain murders a bunch of registered  very minor super villains who were simply sitting in line- Pretty much all the people he kills. Sure he gets the occasional murderer (Possibly deserving capitol punishment, debatable) The case and point is that if he really wanted to kill the biggest monster in any of his stories, he'd shoot himself.

 If memory serves me right he was drugged by Jigsaw when he did that.  

Him murdering super villains is surprising or evil how exactly?  

I'm sorry but the whole he should kill himself argument is stupid.  He's killed a lot of monsters that have really deserved what they got the slavers story arc is a perfect example of this.  Like I said before the guy is definitely no hero but he is not monster that some people make him out to be.  He's a very human adult character that in 616 is surrounded by a bunch of characters that get played off as boy scouts yet they do pretty horrible things that end up killing a lot of innocent people like the final battle in the civil war story that killed dozens of innocent bystanders yet for their labeled as heroes go figure.   

Honestly, it would be similar(if not ten times as worse) as when he shot the cop in War Zone.  And to those saying he can't decide who's right and wrong, look at the people he kills.  ESPECIALLY in the Punisher MAX series.  Most of the time these are drug lords, gun runners, muderers, rapists, slavers, etc.  So, how is what he's doing wrong?  Almost everyone he kills deserved it.  It may not be right for him to decide who's evil and who's good, but at least he's killing the right people and not just butchering left and right. 

 He's not a hero, period.  He's a vigilante.  If he wanted to wear a cape and run around with the Avengers, he wouldn't of ever started his war.     If Frank did kill an innocent, it would kill him on the inside.  Honestly, I love Frank as a character.  Yeah, he's mentally unstable as hell, but he keeps offing the bad guys.

@cody1984 said:

@cmaprice said:

@cody1984 said:

The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  

Out of character, perhaps, but Joss Whedon in far from an idiot. In terms of the how often he's out of character business, I personally feel it's a grey area. Characters like Frank have been written so many ways, it feels only fitting we should see him as being absolutely nuts and inconsistent. At the core, his rules are arbitrary and full of double standards, even when written correctly.I agree, though, that he probably wouldn't kill kids for simple theft. But let's keep in mind, the Runaways were largely rumored to have killed their own supervillain parents to take over their crime syndicate and here, they're working with Kingpin. Frank's first appearance was a mission to take out Spider-Man under false pretenses. How old was Pete at the time? The Punisher has historically often gone on bad intel. He's not nearly as calm and meticulous as his MAX depiction.

When it came to writing the Punisher Josh Whedon was an idiot.   

As far as the Punisher's going on bad intelligence goes it depends on the writer largely.  Matt Fraction had him look rather dumb most of the time Rick Remender did okay but Ennis is way out of there league when it comes to writing the Punisher.  Some people can't write certain characters at all whether its because they don't like them, they don't have the talent, and/or they just don't get the characters.  Josh Whedon's take on the Punisher is pretty straight forward idiotic approach showing that he didn't like the character, he lacks the talent to write him since he's not used to dealing with a character like him, and he doesn't get Frank Castle at all.  

Joss Whedon knows nothing about psychological complexity, you are so right.
Be glad the Punisher won't be seen in Joss's Avengers film, then, because he'd be written like an idiot. Completely unlike the last Punisher film. Heh.

@cody1984 said:

As far as Captain America not being around goes that would be a great thing.  The character is absolutely disrespectful in every sense of the word to everyone who in real life fought in WW2.  The concept of Captain America I find disgusting to say the least since he doesn't represent the U.S. in any sense of the word since the U.S. is to diverse.  So Captain America being the poster boy of what America is suppose to be I find god awful and Stan Lee shouldn't have brought the character back.    

Triple LOLz. He represents the iconic propaganda of the American Dream of the early to mid 20th Century. If you're holding him up to the standard of having to represent every citizen, that isn't even remotely Marvel's problem. No character can do that. It doesn't at all disrespect any real soldier of the era. Cap started out diegetically as a publicity stunt for recruitment. He's a product of his time and his government. He's as much an anachronism and an ironic symbol as he is anything else. He works on many levels to many people. He's nowhere near potentially insulting as the Punisher to real life veterans. As a Vietnam vet, he fits so many negative stereotypes. But are those stereotypes used as a jumping off point as a meta critique, or are they merely exploitative? Depends on the writer, as does Cap. Read up on Isaiah Bradley. Steve Rogers is just one part of a larger picture.

  

@ZORN: @cody1984 said: 

@ZORN said: 

@cosmo111687 said: 

@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims. 
This is my opinion of Punisher:

If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.

Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  

Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). 

Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    

@cmaprice said:

@cody1984 said:

The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  

Out of character, perhaps, but Joss Whedon in far from an idiot. In terms of the how often he's out of character business, I personally feel it's a grey area. Characters like Frank have been written so many ways, it feels only fitting we should see him as being absolutely nuts and inconsistent. At the core, his rules are arbitrary and full of double standards, even when written correctly.I agree, though, that he probably wouldn't kill kids for simple theft. But let's keep in mind, the Runaways were largely rumored to have killed their own supervillain parents to take over their crime syndicate and here, they're working with Kingpin. Frank's first appearance was a mission to take out Spider-Man under false pretenses. How old was Pete at the time? The Punisher has historically often gone on bad intel. He's not nearly as calm and meticulous as his MAX depiction.

When it came to writing the Punisher Josh Whedon was an idiot.   

As far as the Punisher's going on bad intelligence goes it depends on the writer largely.  Matt Fraction had him look rather dumb most of the time Rick Remender did okay but Ennis is way out of there league when it comes to writing the Punisher.  Some people can't write certain characters at all whether its because they don't like them, they don't have the talent, and/or they just don't get the characters.  Josh Whedon's take on the Punisher is pretty straight forward idiotic approach showing that he didn't like the character, he lacks the talent to write him since he's not used to dealing with a character like him, and he doesn't get Frank Castle at all.  

As far as Captain America not being around goes that would be a great thing.  The character is absolutely disrespectful in every sense of the word to everyone who in real life fought in WW2.  The concept of Captain America I find disgusting to say the least since he doesn't represent the U.S. in any sense of the word since the U.S. is to diverse.  So Captain America being the poster boy of what America is suppose to be I find god awful and Stan Lee shouldn't have brought the character back.    

It's a war for Frank. Sadly, there are casualties and innocents caught up in war. It might tear him up inside when one catches a stray bullet, but unless he outright murdered one in cold blood, he wouldn't stop doing what he does.

@cody1984 said:

@Harlekin said:

@Pokeysteve said:

And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 

Cap was part of the force that took down Onslaught who was going to kill everything so Cap has saved at the very least 6,000,000,000+ people. Plus his precipitation in WW2 and different Marvel events it's probably way over that number. So I think Cap has saved more people.

That was a group effort not Captain America alone.  

Didn't say he did it all by himself, just saying as a leader or member of the Avengers for years he helped save the world a hundred time over. He saved an incalculably number of living beings as a group or individual and its asinine to say otherwise. If there was no Steve Roger the world would probably be in a worse place then if there was no Frank Castle.

@Harlekin said:

@Pokeysteve said:

And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 

Cap was part of the force that took down Onslaught who was going to kill everything so Cap has saved at the very least 6,000,000,000+ people. Plus his precipitation in WW2 and different Marvel events it's probably way over that number. So I think Cap has saved more people.

That was a group effort not Captain America alone.  

@cody1984 said:

@cmaprice said:

The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  

Out of character, perhaps, but Joss Whedon in far from an idiot. In terms of the how often he's out of character business, I personally feel it's a grey area. Characters like Frank have been written so many ways, it feels only fitting we should see him as being absolutely nuts and inconsistent. At the core, his rules are arbitrary and full of double standards, even when written correctly.I agree, though, that he probably wouldn't kill kids for simple theft. But let's keep in mind, the Runaways were largely rumored to have killed their own supervillain parents to take over their crime syndicate and here, they're working with Kingpin. Frank's first appearance was a mission to take out Spider-Man under false pretenses. How old was Pete at the time? The Punisher has historically often gone on bad intel. He's not nearly as calm and meticulous as his MAX depiction.

@cmaprice said:

The Punisher is written way out of character again by an idiot.  

@cody1984The last notable times I can think of Punisher killing misdamenor criminals or basically... anyone not deserving death. A couple of instances come off the top of my head.-First appearance with spiderman, he murders a pair of purse snatchers.- Civil war he just plain murders a bunch of registered  very minor super villains who were simply sitting in line- Pretty much all the people he kills. Sure he gets the occasional murderer (Possibly deserving capitol punishment, debatable) The case and point is that if he really wanted to kill the biggest monster in any of his stories, he'd shoot himself.

 If memory serves me right he was drugged by Jigsaw when he did that.  

Him murdering super villains is surprising or evil how exactly?  

I'm sorry but the whole he should kill himself argument is stupid.  He's killed a lot of monsters that have really deserved what they got the slavers story arc is a perfect example of this.  Like I said before the guy is definitely no hero but he is not monster that some people make him out to be.  He's a very human adult character that in 616 is surrounded by a bunch of characters that get played off as boy scouts yet they do pretty horrible things that end up killing a lot of innocent people like the final battle in the civil war story that killed dozens of innocent bystanders yet for their labeled as heroes go figure.   

@cody1984
The last notable times I can think of Punisher killing misdamenor criminals or basically... anyone not deserving death. A couple of instances come off the top of my head.

-First appearance with spiderman, he murders a pair of purse snatchers.
- Civil war he just plain murders a bunch of registered  very minor super villains who were simply sitting in line
- Pretty much all the people he kills. Sure he gets the occasional murderer (Possibly deserving capitol punishment, debatable) The case and point is that if he really wanted to kill the biggest monster in any of his stories, he'd shoot himself.

@cody1984: I am pretty sure that it has been confirmed that Frank is certifiably insane. PTSD, Sociopathic tendencies, Antisocial and I am pretty sure overwrought with Paranoia.

Frank's not insane if he was he would've killed a lot of cops and superheroes by now since he has had the opportunity to do so many times.  The Punisher is fully aware of his actions and clearly capable of making rational choices and using logic in his dealings with others.  People might view his war as insane and we can argue all day long whether or not its morally right the point is though that his war might be viewed by others as nuts doesn't mean that Castle is insane.    

@Matthevv said:

The punisher is simply the worst hero of all time. He's an insane mass murderer with the ethics capacity of a 5 year old. He kills innocents all the time. He kills people for misdamenors. Here's another fun one, when he was blending in with Neo Nazi's he beats his friend's fiance' to death with a crowbar, and then afterward ends up just shooting the Neo Nazi's. There you go. Killed innocents, kills everyone. No morals, no logic. Just  an awful character.

Dunno-depends what you want to call an"innocent"-he's fired on petty lawbreakers such as litter bugs and jaywalkers before(though thankfully not killing hem).

Terry

 @ cody1984Okay, cool, but then what makes him better than any of the insane criminals out there? Both are just doing whatever they think is right, not following any law. What gives him the right to kill people and not them? And you can't say they're "the bad guys" doing "bad stuff" if there's nothing to define bad. That's really just my point. If he was a hero, it would be for following something that's actually right, and the best way to follow the only code he's ever even seemed to acknowledge is to kill himself. So he can't be a living hero either way. Now if you like him as a villain, that's another story. The fact that he takes out people that might do or have done "bad" things almost all the time he kills is simply convenient for the real heroes.

The punisher is simply the worst hero of all time. He's an insane mass murderer with the ethics capacity of a 5 year old. He kills innocents all the time. He kills people for misdamenors. Here's another fun one, when he was blending in with Neo Nazi's he beats his friend's fiance' to death with a crowbar, and then afterward ends up just shooting the Neo Nazi's. There you go. Killed innocents, kills everyone. No morals, no logic. Just  an awful character.

 @ cody1984

Okay, cool, but then what makes him better than any of the insane criminals out there? Both are just doing whatever they think is right, not following any law. What gives him the right to kill people and not them? And you can't say they're "the bad guys" doing "bad stuff" if there's nothing to define bad. That's really just my point. If he was a hero, it would be for following something that's actually right, and the best way to follow the only code he's ever even seemed to acknowledge is to kill himself. So he can't be a living hero either way. Now if you like him as a villain, that's another story. The fact that he takes out people that might do or have done "bad" things almost all the time he kills is simply convenient for the real heroes.

Preventing someone's first crime by killing them is no better than killing anyone else, because you never really know if someone's going to decide at the last minute to not go through with it. If the law can fail, and he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, then what DOES he go by? And if he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, shouldn't he shoot himself just like he's shot all those other people for not going a hundred percent by the law? Those are the questions I've always asked, and the reason I can never consider Punisher a hero. If he goes by whatever the heck he decides is right, he's absolutely no better than the people he kills, who are just going by whatever they decide helps them. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it. As someone who can't claim to be an EXPERT on Punisher, it's nice to see a reasonable fan perspective.

Preventing someone's first crime by killing them is no better than killing anyone else, because you never really know if someone's going to decide at the last minute to not go through with it. If the law can fail, and he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, then what DOES he go by? And if he doesn't a hundred percent go by it, shouldn't he shoot himself just like he's shot all those other people for not going a hundred percent by the law? Those are the questions I've always asked, and the reason I can never consider Punisher a hero. If he goes by whatever the heck he decides is right, he's absolutely no better than the people he kills, who are just going by whatever they decide helps them. Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it. As someone who can't claim to be an EXPERT on Punisher, it's nice to see a reasonable fan perspective.

Here's what I've always thought about the Punisher in general, please tell me if it's not logical for any reason:What does the Punisher use to determine what's right and wrong? He uses the law, right? If it was his conscience, or some higher authority, he would have had a lot of problems with what he did already, so I don't think that's the case. So he decided to end those who do bad enough things to have their lives ended according to the law, and to some extent, that's understandable. But how does he end those people? He ends them whenever he feels like it with whatever means he can. He does not use due process or really any trial whatsoever, he just KILLS THEM. Now some of these people he sees doing really bad things could have thought to themselves when they were doing said things that they were perfectly right for doing them for a whole host of reasons. But Punisher doesn't care WHY they thought they were doing things outside of the law, he only cares THAT they were doing things outside of the law. Hold on, I'm almost done here. If one were to take Punisher's line of thinking to its natural conclusion, who would be the person who killed the most people outside of the law (or at least ONE of the people who killed the most outside of the law). Well, of course, it would be the Punisher himself.Conclusion: The Punisher should have shot himself already, because the law considers the people he has killed to be innocent (until proven guilty).

@Pokeysteve said:

@cody1984 said:

For the record this has already happened before a few times.  Sometimes with Castle being mind controlled and killing someone like how he killed the reporter in goin' out west.  Here in Born he deliberately sets up a general to get killed even though he's not guilty of anything that Frank is aware of.  He just wanted to shut down the base Frank was at.      

The General was going to shut the base down as you mentioned. With the recon and patrolling Castle knew the VC were planning a major attack. The base was the last line of defense and closing it could have been the death of hundreds. Instead he tricks the General and the rest of his squad goes. 

The War was coming to an end and the General was even telling him they were going home as soon as they closed the base.  Frank's reasons weren't for saving lives it was because he was delaying the war ending for him as long as he could.  Frank not letting the base be closed costs the lives of every man posted at Valley Forge.  This was talked about heavily in the "Valley Forge" Story arc.  

If he wanted to be killed because he shot an innocent person who did not die I cannot see him not going completely berserk if he killed an innocent person.

@Pokeysteve said:

And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 

Cap was part of the force that took down Onslaught who was going to kill everything so Cap has saved at the very least 6,000,000,000+ people. Plus his precipitation in WW2 and different Marvel events it's probably way over that number. So I think Cap has saved more people.

Here's what I've always thought about the Punisher in general, please tell me if it's not logical for any reason:

What does the Punisher use to determine what's right and wrong? He uses the law, right? If it was his conscience, or some higher authority, he would have had a lot of problems with what he did already, so I don't think that's the case. So he decided to end those who do bad enough things to have their lives ended according to the law, and to some extent, that's understandable. But how does he end those people? He ends them whenever he feels like it with whatever means he can. He does not use due process or really any trial whatsoever, he just KILLS THEM. Now some of these people he sees doing really bad things could have thought to themselves when they were doing said things that they were perfectly right for doing them for a whole host of reasons. But Punisher doesn't care WHY they thought they were doing things outside of the law, he only cares THAT they were doing things outside of the law. Hold on, I'm almost done here. If one were to take Punisher's line of thinking to its natural conclusion, who would be the person who killed the most people outside of the law (or at least ONE of the people who killed the most outside of the law). Well, of course, it would be the Punisher himself.
Conclusion: The Punisher should have shot himself already, because the law considers the people he has killed to be innocent (until proven guilty).

And I'd be willing to bet Castle has saved more lives than Cap. 

personally, punisher's hit-and-miss for me - I don't really dig him half of the time, but I accept that's because he's not always well-written.   of course, while i don't really care for cap either, he's technically right - frank castle is insane.   I don't hate the character, but there's always this big fight between whether he's an anti-hero or an out-and-out villain - and while I can't really speak for either, the words 'mass murderer' never present a shining defense.   having said that, I did think the ending (hokey as the rest of it was) to 'Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe' was pretty touching.   then again, much as I love D.D. (sometimes), I'm not sure why Frank would've killed himself over that - it's no secret that Matt Murdock's not exactly opposed to killing either.

@cody1984: But...personally I believe that Joker is a far more formidable foe than The Punisher. If all it took was the will to kill and a gun to take out the Joker, it would've happened long ago. But, he's virtually invincible, just as Batman's virtually invincible (not due to superpowers or anything; they're just both incredibly good at what they do). Anybody who doesn't understand this doesn't understand the Joker or the Batman mythos. And about Punisher not breaking his own rules, well, that's because his rules don't make sense. This goes back to my first comment. He believes that it's permissible to act above the law and kill people as he sees fit, but if he kills an innocent, then he'll allow himself to go to jail. That's one heck of a double-standard and a complete contradiction of his principles. If he was consistent with his principles, he'd shoot himself. Or, better yet, he would show some courage and try to support the good guys (and not murder at will) rather than act like a maniac and pose a threat to everyone.

@cody1984:  @cody1984 said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@ZORN:  @cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.

Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  

Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    

Either Batman is a coward or a moron when it comes to the Joker take your pick since either way it adds up to the deaths of a lot of innocent people which wouldn't happen if the Joker was going against the Punisher since Frank would just waste him.  Also Batman takes the law into his own hands every time he goes out and fights crime.  Batman is a vigilante after all. If the Punisher was in Gotham and was able to do his work it would be the best thing that ever happened to that city.    

   

Well, first-off, I think that in a battle between Punisher and Joker, we all know who would have the last laugh. Punisher is too blind and his weaknesses too flagrant for Joker not to manipulate or provoke. Don't underestimate Joker. (thus my comment, earlier, that if Punisher was in Gotham, he wouldn't survive long.)

Joker is a serious threat and you can fairly debate whither it's better to kill him or not, but attributing Batman's choice to cowardice is overly simplistic and, really, misses the point.


And Batman bends some rules, but he doesn't break them. Murdering somebody would definitely be breaking them.

edit: And I can't imagine how poorly Punisher would've handled No Man's Land.

Frank's an interesting nutball. 

@cosmo111687 said:

@ZORN:  @cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.

Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  

Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.    

Either Batman is a coward or a moron when it comes to the Joker take your pick since either way it adds up to the deaths of a lot of innocent people which wouldn't happen if the Joker was going against the Punisher since Frank would just waste him.  Also Batman takes the law into his own hands every time he goes out and fights crime.  Batman is a vigilante after all. If the Punisher was in Gotham and was able to do his work it would be the best thing that ever happened to that city.    

   

He'd punish himself.  But he's a masochist, so he'd enjoy it. 

@ZORN: @cody1984 said:

@ZORN said:

@cosmo111687 said:

@LB70145: What BS. He would allow himself to go to jail, but he doesn't have the enough courage (yes, courage. see: Batman) to do the same for his victims.
This is my opinion of Punisher:

If Batman had Courage he would have gone Dirty Harry on the Joker years ago, hell someone in the Gotham Police department should grow a pair and put the Joker down.

Indeed, the Joker's death toll is pathetic and someone should've executed him by now.  

Batman doesn't resist killing Joker out of a lack of courage, but because he's incredibly courageous and incredibly conscientious, for courage is the ability to do what's right in the face of overwhelming odds. He recognizes that by taking the law into his own hands, he not only undermines the authority of the rule of law and the self-efficacy of the GCPD and the Gotham citizenry, he also risks going down a slipper-slope whereby he would feel free to take the lives of any villains he'd wish. And at what point would that stop? Should Batman have the authority to act as judge-jury-and-executioner? Should he become the law? Should he just take control of Gotham, disband the GCPD, and create death-squads to murder all the inmates at Arkham Asylum and Blackgate, and then rule with an iron fist? And are all the villains of Gotham beyond redemption? Even Joker has had his moments of sanity, and in the Dark Knight, he was contained for a long while. But If Punisher were in Batman's shoes, all the villains, including Selina Kyle, would be lying in a pool of her own blood long ago (although I personally believe that if Punisher were Batman, he wouldn't survive for very long in Gotham). Frankly, if there's a "hero" who is proof that going down the Dirty Harry route is madness, look no further than Punisher.