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Off My Mind: Was the Death of Batman's Parents the Result of a Simple Mugging?

Over the years there has long been question over the reason for their death. Is there finally evidence that there was an actual conspiracy over their murder?

Everyone knows the story of how and why Bruce Wayne became Batman. As a child, he and his parents were held up by a mugger, Joe Chill. When trying to claim Martha Wayne's pearl necklace, Thomas stepped forward and was shot and killed. When Martha protested, Chill shot her to shut her up.

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What always struck me as a little odd, and a point of conversation since the origin was revealed, why was young Bruce's life spared? Joe Chill was a cold-hearted killer. He was willing to commit double-homicide over a simple necklace. He shot and killed Martha, in front of her son, just to shut her up. It was usually said that he didn't have it in him to kill a kid. But leaving behind an eye witness doesn't make sense.

With elements of the history of Gotham City and other conspiracies introduced in the pages of Scott Snyder's BATMAN, is it possible that there was more to the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne. Does the introduction of the Court of Owls finally give us reason to believe this is true and Bruce was spared for a reason? There will be some minor spoilers for BATMAN #4.

== TEASER ==

We've seen different stories with Joe Chill in the Silver and Modern Age. With the latest issue of BATMAN, we discovered that, as a child, Bruce couldn't accept it was a simple mugging.

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This thinking goes along with the idea of the Court of Owls. The secret organization dates back to the time of Bruce's great great grandfather, Alan Wayne. We've also seen that Alan was scared for his life in his final days. On the run, he claimed "they" were after him.

Mistaken for being senile and paranoid, his death was thought to have been an accident when he apparently fell in an open manhole.

Batman had Alan Wayne's remains exhumed and did some more investigating. He discovered that there were almost fifty tiny punctures in his bones, most likely made from throwing knives, the weapon of choice by the Court of Owls' killer, Talon. We also know that Talon has targeted Bruce Wayne and has mentioned it was nearly fifty years since he killed a Wayne.

The motives of the Court of Owls has yet to be revealed. For whatever reason, we know that Alan and Bruce Wayne have been targeted. The possibility that Thomas and Martha were also killed because of the Court's wishes now seems more likely. Except for the fact that their death was the result of an apparent mugging rather than being killed by Talon.

Unless they needed to make it look like a mugging. Why Bruce was left alive was so the Court could continue the hunt and killing of Waynes when he was a more worthy target.

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This could be a stretch. But the fact that the Court is making a point of killing Waynes says there could be some connection.

What does BATMAN writer, Scott Snyder, have to say on this possibility? Back in August, Scott mentioned on our podcast that he didn't want to change the killing of Thomas and Martha or Joe Chill's part in it. Does that mean it's the case? Does that mean someone else can't change or adjust the history?

Most likely the Court of Owls weren't a part of the killing. As for why they would overlook Thomas and Martha is unknown. It's possible the Court was waiting to make their move at a later point. Joe Chill could have confronted the Waynes before Talon could go after them.

This also brings up the question of what happened to Joe Chill? Some stories show that Batman later confronted him and revealed his identity to him, followed by other gangsters killing Chill for creating Batman. This 'story' may not be part of Batman's lore these days.

Regardless, the fact that Chill did not kill Bruce will remain an odd move in my book. He was willing to kill a mother in front of her child. He was as cold as his last name implies. Why would a cold killer be okay with killing a mom but not a child. Why would he allow an eye witness to remain. There has been retellings of this incident where young Bruce had a fire in his eyes that scared off Chill but that should have given him more of a reason to kill, out of fear.

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COMICFAN

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Edited By COMICFAN

No, it wasn't. If you ever read DETECTIVE COMICS issue #235 it reveals that LEW MOXON hired JOE CHILL to kill Bruce's parents. Also, the story was featured in an episode of BATMAN: THE BRAVE & THE BOLD "Chill of the Night" I believe it was called.

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oborotyenvpup

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Edited By oborotyenvpup

So whom controls the so called court of owls? Ra's al ghul?

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eatmore_payless

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Edited By eatmore_payless

dude believe it or not, there's just some people who can kill anyone, but can't afford to kill a child, trust me I know what Im saying, my father is a police officer and for his 35 years on the job, he told me that there still people who do what Joe Chill does. So to be clear Joe has nothing to do with the Court Of Owls or any other organization, he is just that stupid enough to not kill Bruce.

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entropy_aegis

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Edited By entropy_aegis

@Everyman011 said:

Okay, here's my two cents...

I was under the impression that Morrison had it written in Batman and Robin that Dr. Hurt was revealed to have orchestrated the death of Bruce's parents by the hands of Joe Chill. I was pretty sure that he revealed that to be the case after Bruce's return from time traveling thanks to Darkseid's omega beams. Bruce put it together that Dr. Hurt was actually the member of the Wayne family from the colonial Gotham that opened the box that contained the leftover Omega radiation and it took him over making him nearly immortal.

With that said, I was also sure that I had read somewhere that the supposed death and return of Bruce Wayne was still apart of the mythos with the 'new 52' Batman. That means it would still stand that the murder of the Waynes was orchestrated by Dr. Hurt.

No,Chill was still a random mugger.Hurt killed Roderick Kane(Martha Wayne's father) and he even tried to ruin their reputation but there was never any evidence proving that he was responsible for their deaths.Morrison just took us along for a wild ride,but he still kept the essentials intact.

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Queso6p4

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Edited By Queso6p4

Nice article. I was definitely intrigued by this take on their death.

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Everyman011

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Edited By Everyman011

Okay, here's my two cents...

I was under the impression that Morrison had it written in Batman and Robin that Dr. Hurt was revealed to have orchestrated the death of Bruce's parents by the hands of Joe Chill. I was pretty sure that he revealed that to be the case after Bruce's return from time traveling thanks to Darkseid's omega beams. Bruce put it together that Dr. Hurt was actually the member of the Wayne family from the colonial Gotham that opened the box that contained the leftover Omega radiation and it took him over making him nearly immortal.

With that said, I was also sure that I had read somewhere that the supposed death and return of Bruce Wayne was still apart of the mythos with the 'new 52' Batman. That means it would still stand that the murder of the Waynes was orchestrated by Dr. Hurt.

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entropy_aegis

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Edited By entropy_aegis

@kadosho_16bit said:

The Court of Owls really put a spin on the Batman legacy. Ever since RIP, I felt that someone wanted to re-write Batman's origins. But reading it from start to finish proved that it was the past continuing to haunt the present. I'm beginning to wonder if it was the original creator's idea all along. Sure it was always a detective story, but something about the original run was different. And now we get a bit more mysterious with foes Bruce never thought existed before. (*honestly I'm glad this wasn't lost with this rebirth of the DC line) But this moment where Bruce lost his parents will forever tie knots in fans heartstrings.

I wonder if the next Batman movie might actually include "The Court of Owls".

No they won't,I don't wanna look rude but the mere idea of the Court of Owls at this stage in Nolan's series is preposterous.I would love to see them in the next franchise though,I can honestly do without Scarface,Mr Freeze,Hush,Two-face and Black Mask.

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kadosho_16bit

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Edited By kadosho_16bit

The Court of Owls really put a spin on the Batman legacy. Ever since RIP, I felt that someone wanted to re-write Batman's origins. But reading it from start to finish proved that it was the past continuing to haunt the present. I'm beginning to wonder if it was the original creator's idea all along. Sure it was always a detective story, but something about the original run was different. And now we get a bit more mysterious with foes Bruce never thought existed before. (*honestly I'm glad this wasn't lost with this rebirth of the DC line) But this moment where Bruce lost his parents will forever tie knots in fans heartstrings.

I wonder if the next Batman movie might actually include "The Court of Owls".

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Apis

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Edited By Apis

There would be no reason for the Court of Owls to send Chill if their prefered Wayne-Hunter Talon was available.Also an assassin sent by them would be focused on Thomas, not Martha.I think it was a mugging,horrific but commom.Making Batman's war the result of a conspiracy undermines the character in the long run.However if Talon didn't kill those Waynes nearly 50yrs.ago What Wayne did he murder?!

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Comiclove5

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Edited By Comiclove5

@Kairan1979 said:

@The Impersonator said:

Would it matter if it was a conspiracy or not? Bruce would have still become Batman any ways. Because either way, the Court of Owls must have sent Joe Chill to kill his parents. Or Joe Chill just killed his parents for mugging. It's still a crime and Bruce wanted to end it as he sees fit.

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desperado_

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Edited By desperado_

No, it WAS a random mugging. I don't care what anyone else writes from here on out.... It is what it is.

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Jnr6Lil

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Edited By Jnr6Lil

I read some of Batman's history and they said a mobster hired Joe Chill.

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SigersonLTD

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Edited By SigersonLTD

@G-Man: There's a retelling in which Martha dies of a heart attack, and before Chill is able to do anything else, he fears he'll be caught. How many gunshots? Depends on which version of the origin you go with, I would think. Why do you believe we know Chill to be a cold-blooded killer? This could be a simple mugging gone horribly wrong, when Chill didn't come across meek victims. Maybe this was the first time he had to shoot someone.

As you say, we don't know the lore anymore, as this is the DCnU, however, I have to believe that some version of the story remains intact. It truly depends on which version of that story is still canon.

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Miss_Garrick

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Edited By Miss_Garrick

@XMASCATEXE: You got a point there.

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XMASCATEXE

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Edited By XMASCATEXE

I always thought it was due to Chill being malicious in that he left Bruce alive because doing so and the pain he inflicted on him was abuse enough and maybe more so. If you think about it it's fallacy to say Bruce was " sparred " because he in fact wasn't. He was tortured and broken, his childhood and innocence robbed from him. This also displays the cosmic force of justice in that this very act had the effect of setting forth a motion of justice that would therefore collect penance from crime there out. Looking at the very original print, the art and everything else it's at least for certain there was much intent towards metaphor.

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positronic

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Edited By positronic

So then when did the "modern" version of Batman begin?  We've obviously gone beyond the "Batman Year One" era Batman at this point.  I guess the most obvious answer is "With Detective Comics #1 last September", but since most, if not all, of the pre-New 52 elements seem to carry over, what is the approximate starting point of modern Batman?  Is it "Batman and Son" by Morrison & Kubert?

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ALdragon17

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Edited By ALdragon17

I'd always felt that there was a under current and how Bruce's parents die. Batman the movie kinda of hinted that, I know it was the joker. Evening the games have the twist to it. How Gotham was a breeding ground for nut cases. I feel like it is one big test for someone to look at or some big organizes to breed crazy people for war. Ah, I always refer to Big Brother or something like it. I think that Bruce's Grand dad touch on it and he's dad was to uncover this. Basically, to shut up the Waynes and a warning not to go there. The group think that Bruce was going to turn into a wimp and use the money for women or to get more money;they fail to realize that the Waynes "aren't going to taking anymore" Twisted Sister. Wallace Wallace!!!

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entropy_aegis

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Edited By entropy_aegis

@positronic said:

No big mystery. Mob boss Lew Moxon hired Joe Chill to kill the Waynes. And before you cry "Silver Age continuity", notice that Grant Morrison acknowledges Thomas Wayne's "Bat-Man" masquerade party costume, so the story is part of modern continuity (unless the "New 52" DCU is already throwing out such recent stuff as Morrison's work).

Huh? Moxon did nothing.In Morrison's run it was implied that Doctor Hurt may have a hand in their murders but at the end of the day it was still a simple mugging.

Modern Moxon got his ass kicked by Deadshot.

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DarthShap

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Edited By DarthShap

@positronic said:

No big mystery. Mob boss Lew Moxon hired Joe Chill to kill the Waynes. And before you cry "Silver Age continuity", notice that Grant Morrison acknowledges Thomas Wayne's "Bat-Man" masquerade party costume, so the story is part of modern continuity (unless the "New 52" DCU is already throwing out such recent stuff as Morrison's work).

Morrison did bring back Silver Age elements such as "Bat-Man" and everything else from that excellent Black Casebook trade which I recommend. However, when bringing them back, he alterted them in the process. Bat-Mite was never a dark part of Batman's psyche, the Batman of zur-en-arrh was not what came out of the experiment with Doctor Hurt, that was "Robin dies at Dawn" and unlike that story, not only Zur-En-Arrh was supposed to be real back then but also, its Batman was nothing like the one of RIP. In that exact same way, Thomas did wear a Bat-Man costume but in 673 "Joe Chill in Hell", Morrison made it very clear that it was no conspiracy, just a poor homeless guy doing what he thought was right in the name of class struggle or something.

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positronic

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Edited By positronic

No big mystery. Mob boss Lew Moxon hired Joe Chill to kill the Waynes.  And before you cry "Silver Age continuity", notice that Grant Morrison acknowledges Thomas Wayne's "Bat-Man" masquerade party costume, so the story is part of modern continuity (unless the "New 52" DCU is already throwing out such recent stuff as Morrison's work).

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EganTheVile1

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Edited By EganTheVile1

I hate when modern writers try to make this random act of crime into something more, this was not a planned attack on the Wayne family, it was a mugging, Bruce became a rich kid who protects all because all are vulnerable, making the killings of his parents as anything but a random act of violence is bad writing and an injustice to Batman

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The Toon Man

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Edited By The Toon Man

Now that would be interesting. But, in my honest opinion, it's how the angle is worked that will make it good or bad.

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prestonhedges

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Edited By prestonhedges

Great. So when he defeats this Court of Owls or whatever, he won't have to be Batman anymore! Yaay! Oh, wait...

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brannahdel

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Edited By brannahdel

I can't remember which issue of Batman it was that gave the story as a random mugging. The identity of the mugger was never found out and he only shot Thomas Wayne, while Martha Wayne died of a heart attack because of a weak heart condition.

This way, it gives this sense of desperation to the Batman's crusade, in a way always trying to stop that one criminal from doing what he did, without ever knowing who it was. It gives Batman a sad and at the same time, powerful motivation for his war on crime.

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Teerack

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Edited By Teerack

Batman goes back in time to kill his own parents, because the world need a batman.

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GraveSp

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Edited By GraveSp

I like the simple mugging explanation. Its more nihilistic. Plus it sets up Batman to wage a war on crime not on a specific person. And maybe Chill only had 2 bullets.

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SexualLobster

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Edited By SexualLobster

If they make it end up being a conspiracy.. I'll be pissed, sorry.

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Knight Train

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Edited By Knight Train

I'm liking this series, but they better not mess with the origin especially by adding this silly owl club conspiracy. It would be like changing the death of Uncle Ben to some conspiracy it won't work, DC need to change what's bad about their universes in this reboot, changing the stuff which was perfect is just straight up suicide. Bruce and his parents were the victim of a random crime, Joe Chill stood for all the injustice in the world, making it a conspiracy would mean that Batman is fighting revenge against one group of people, when the thing that makes batman great is that he is fighting an entire subsection of society, the people who do evil and ruin life's needlessly

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nickthedevil

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Edited By nickthedevil

Hmmmm... They gotta keep it as is. Thats legendary.

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MakoaWolf

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Edited By MakoaWolf

@LP:

@G-Man:

I have to respectfully disagree. I agree that with the current storylines, that G-Man's logic is not at all off-base. If we take the current Owls Conspiracy as "circumstantial" evidence, then the leap of logic to making the Wayne Murders something more conspiratorial is not a large leap, but it is still a leap.

In my opinion, I always thought that it was an act of random violence, and I think that is important to the overall inspiration for The Batman's core mission. Joe Chill was a violent man, but that does not necessarily equate to "cunning" or "experienced criminal". My Lady is a Criminal Analyst, criminals and people in general make very strange and odd mistakes and decisions all the time. I don't think Joe planned on killing anyone, when Thomas takes a step, he shoots him, when Martha cries out, he shuts her up to keep the scent quiet. I also think we need to take into account the historical context of the original story, where the lines lend themselves more to the melodrama of the period than dialogue of any real depth of character.

But, I digress. I think the event needs to be an act of Random Violence. A symptom of a disease that The Batman needs to cure. Otherwise, he puts down the Court of Owls and his Mission is complete. The Batman can take down the Court of Owls. He can't beat crime, he can't beat evil, and he knows it. It's what makes that line in Alex Ross' Kingdom Come resonate so well, and I am paraphrasing. I believe it is Superman that says of Batman, something like, "Deep down, you're just a man that doesn't want anyone else to be hurt like you were."

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deactivated-579fe0ae58107

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I think the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne was completely, totally random. I think even though Joe Chill was a hard@$$ killer and shot Martha to shut her up, he thought Bruce was insignificant. Most kids are. Overlooked. I'm sure Chill thought that seeing his parents gunned down in front of him was intimidating and crippling enough shock.It was dark, it happened quickly enough, Bruce was young enough, Joe would hardly be remembered for the crime. At the time it happened, Joe was an insignificant nobody himself. Soon it developed into a whole conspiracy. I like that a random act of violence inspired Bruce to shape himself into an unstoppable force for good. There are better stories in The Batman being motivated to help people in the same situation that can't help themselves because of shock and awe than in a Wayne family conspiracy.

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sladewilson30

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Edited By sladewilson30

Is there any information that says otherwise?

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ARMIV2

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Edited By ARMIV2

Nobody knows...

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TheGoldenOne

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Edited By TheGoldenOne
@InnerVenom123 said:

Simple mugging. Anything more is kinda lame.

Agreed.
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BoosterBold

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Edited By BoosterBold

Occupy Crime Alley did it. They hate the rich and successful. :D

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Mayo88m

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Edited By Mayo88m

@Outside_85 said:

Some things are better left as they are and making it into a big conspiracy just ruins this.

If you make it into a conspiracy, then it means there is an end, since Batman will have done his when the conspiracy is uncovered and the members of the Court are exposed then he's reached the roots of his quest; the gunman is in jail or dead, the people behind him are the same. If it is left as it is, Batman is fighting something bigger; the society that created the Joe Chills and continues to produce more of them; random, desperate people who have to resort to crime to get by.

Yep, if it was a conspiracy then when he destroys the owls that would just signal the end of Batman. I mean they could have him keep going, but they would have to almost completely re-purpose his character because he could no long really be fighting the society that allowed a criminal individual such as Chill to thrive. Besides, like someone above wrote, the entire issue was spent kind of proving that the Court of Owls is something else. I didn't really like this spin though considering all the proof to the contrary that has been provided, but maybe it'll all be made clearer in the next issue.

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allison_scag

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Edited By allison_scag

Wasn't it already established that Joe Chill was given cash to kill Thomas Wayne and his wife by Lew moxon ? So it wouldn't be a simple mugging, but more of an execution hit, masked as a mugging.

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GC8

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Edited By GC8

I hope Batman's origin remains the result of a simple robbery gone bad - it's much more powerful that way - Bruce Wayne's war is on crime - all crime, from the global terrorists to the corner mugger no criminal is safe from The Batman!

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mynameis7

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Edited By mynameis7

I gotta admit for being a huge batman fan i never thought about this, but after reading the newest batman(Issue#4) and bruce bringing this exact topic up, that being that theres more than just a random guy killing a couple in a dark alley for some pocket change. Now that i saw this and read the issue i have been giving this some serious thought and i think that there is something more sinister that just two random killings and i dont thing that they were random at all.

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StarKiller809

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Edited By StarKiller809

I really enjoyed Batman #4. I really liked how they added that Bruce was really trying to figure it out. I think it would be a great idea because this is the first arch of the new Batman series. There should always be something related to an origin in the beginning of a series in my opinion. I think Scott Snyder is a brilliant writer and I have enjoyed this issue the best out of the whole run so far.

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k4tzm4n

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Edited By k4tzm4n  Moderator

@InnerVenom123 said:

Simple mugging. Anything more is kinda lame.

Agreed. Thankfully, Snyder said at NYCC that he didn't want to mess with that element with retcons and such.

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Cafeterialoca

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Edited By Cafeterialoca

How about this?

Did a mugger simply kill Uncle Ben? Or was Uncle Ben some MEGA crimelord that was able to hide it from his family, and the man who shot him some hitman rubbing him out?

Sounds ridiculous? That's why redoing origins is silly.

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leokearon

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Edited By leokearon

This was explored way back in the First Batman Story, it is was revealed that the Wayne's mugging was actually a murder disguised as a mugging.

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Nova`Prime`

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Edited By Nova`Prime`

They need to keep it simple, simple muggings happen all the time and people get killed during them. Making this into a huge conspiracy is as bad as when Marvel revealed Spidey's parents weren't dead they were working for the CIA.

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Edited By Sammo21

Ten years ago I would say random. Batman was the spawn of the random violence that plagued everyone, but it changed him when other people just became even more scared.

These days with Morrisson and company wanting every little facet of Batman to be weaved together to an exhausting point...it's probably a conspiracy.........or aliens. I will say that anything Scott Snyder has done and probably will do with Batman is infinitely more palatable to me than Morrisson's schlocky writing.

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Or35ti

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Edited By Or35ti

I always thought it was one bullet from one shot that went through Thomas and then struck Martha as well. I guess I was wrong. I doubt the Court of Owls killed Batman's parents but still, it is odd that Bruce was spared, unless maybe Chill ran away in fear after killing two people.

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Hazlenaut

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Edited By Hazlenaut

They want to make it different different but they are just taking McGinnis origin. It was plan from the start by Cadmus, but they chose not to complete as it does not respect Batman. Terry's answer the question why terry and his brother hair were black when their parent's hair were red.

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RedheadedAtrocitus

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Eh, the whole conspiracy talk of it kind of cheapens the moment I think. That's why Batman #673 is one of my all time favorite issues due to the fact that it delves deeply in to that very night Chill shot Bruce's parents. According to him, he just couldn't kill the kid though he thinks in retrospect he should have. The angle is great because it shows that Chill was to blame for so much of organized crime's problems in the future, and that if they ever found out that he created the Dark Knight through his stunt that evening that they'd undoubtedly kill him. That is the best explanation I think. Anything else is just silly.

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johnny_spam

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Edited By johnny_spam

It was said in an earlier story that Thomas wronged gangsters and they wanted payback by hiring Joe Chill to murder him and his family only he found it hard to kill Bruce and that was in the forties. Many writers toy with it being something more but unless a writer will stay on for years no will ever agree on how it should be. But with so much talk of convenient coincidences by many writers and with the Waynes increasing history with the underworld even before this story writers should just accept it was not random chance.

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Mutant God

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Edited By Mutant God

no Joe was a sloppy mugger who was never bigger than any other criminal which proves that even the smallest criminals could commit such a terrible crime

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