Off My Mind: Should There Be More Cohesion in the New DC Universe?

I definitely don’t want a company wide crossover, i’m really enjoying having separate titles carry their own characters without unnecessary interference from others. But I did feel that the Batman in Justice League Dark was a bit off compared to the normal. Maybe just a bit of cohesion is needed, in small doses

I am currently loving that each books is dealing with it's own characters and stories without having to worry about what the other books are doing. I don't want and think DC shouldn't do much of any crossovers for a while, giving them plenty of time to flesh out the new universe. Maybe after a good year they can do some minor crossover stories. Until then, I'm gonna love reading my DC books all as stand alone titles.

The crossovers are like walking on thin-ice... You need to make is soo good that it would justify the grand feeling of the event. That is Marvel's way and they overdone it many times soo I think DC won't need a crossover yet.

About the different titles with the same characters, I agree with you. One thing I am soo worried about is, when writers decide to give a character a guest starring role or in the Superhero Team books, they tend to write their ''own'' version of that character and that feels , as you say , different from that character's ongoing title.

I can say that the problem lays with the lack of communications between the writers. Some interact better then others and create some great crossovers but that seems rare these days. Everyone wants to stand-out with their version of the characters but for the fans it is a little stone in the shoe that might make the character ''irrelavent''

They can have many excuses for characters acting different but none of it will make much sense to a hardcore reader. Example ; If a hero lose someone close to him/her, and at the same day of he guest star on another title with being all happy and cheerful, well that would confuse many readers. Sure the ''Timeline'' in the comics can be as flexible as possible but that doesn't change the weird taste we get from the character's sudden change.

Mainly, after you work so hard to develope that character on his/her ongoing series, a simple guest star role or a team membership can cause many question marks. I think Editors and Writers should consider Reading eachother's works more often if they want to do that crossover some justice.

I think they should save the crossovers for a few story arcs down the line so that they can establish and develop the characters 1st. I agree that when characters guest star in other books they feel odd, which as Wowlock points out, has do with communication between the writers.

It's still early in the revamp, so I'm alright with little crossover action. I expect to see more as the year goes on.

Strangely enough, I posted almost the exact same thing yesterday on some other (French) website.

The solution to not having a different feel for each book when dealing with the same character should be simple enough: just editors doing their jobs and DC appointing a lead writer to a specific universe, for instance Snyder for the entire Batverse (especially considering that Detective Comics and The Dark Knight are a mess, written Image-style by comic book artists who do not know how to write) just like what Geoff Johns has been doing on the GLverse ever since Rebirth-Recharge.

I'm glad they're going by ers would comDwayne McDuffies idea. He had a blog a while ago that said he wished every comic would have their own "universe" while others would come in and out when needed. It was a long blog but that was the gist of it. It's the right thing to do and I'm glad that they are indirectly honoring him.

As Ultra Magnus says Consistency is Victory

i cant agree more that the New 52 needs to be more cohesive. While many of the books are fine individually, the lack of consistency in characters is very upsetting. I have always been a fan of DC's planning scheduled, laying down the framework for major stories and events 6 months to two years before the thing actually hit. But the new 52 seems rushed. Like they pulled it all together in the tiniest window in order to get everything going before the new year.

While i do love crossovers, they are too far off to do a good big one anytime soon. It seems like DC disavowed their old system of having one person oversee every appearance of a character for consistency, and instead just gave each writer a handful of things they must add to their character before letting them do whatever they want. And its not working very well.

Its very apparent that Batman and The GL corp are the only ones they are really trying to keep in any sort of order. And i dont like it.

BTW is anyone else annoyed that Stormwatch is being portrayed as head and tails better than the JLA? I dont think i want the DCU to be a world were Superman and batman are on the second tier team...

We're only four issues in, can't we get one storyline down in each book before we bring the whole universe together again?

Crisis on 52 earths next?!

I don't want any cameos and crossovers unless they're team books. Anything else would be uncivilized.

The more characters they have, the bigger the world feels.

That is where I have to disagree. The rest of Tony's article makes sense and is something I agree with. But no, the world does not feel bigger with more characters. At least not in the way Tony is proposing. Because while he would be theoretically right, he's wrong when you look at the reality of comics. It's not that every character has a good number of supporting characters. It's that the hero of book A is supporting character in book B and vice versa. This is an instant character-killer, because who wants to see Batman in thirty books a month? And most of his appearances, he wastes by talking random stuff that might as well have been said by someone else. And when everyone else has to appear in Batman's titles, then where does he talk to his supporting characters? Where's Alfred's wisdom needed when you can have the fourth smartest man in the world? If you want to cram Alfred and the other guy in there, then the story as a whole suffers, because you lack the space to tell a decent story. Another side-effect this has is that characters are only defined by their interaction with other characters who - in turn - are defined by talking to other characters. So it's a never-ending violation of the "Show, don't tell"-rule.

Given all that, I would say that if the DC Universe needs anything it's even less crossovers. Let the characters and their supporting cast grow for a while, then have the rare appearance of another hero. But only if you really can't avoid it or if it's carefully planned.

NO CROSSOVERS. Crossovers repel new readers, which is the whole point of the new 52. As a former marvel fanboy what drove me away from marvel, is that the stories were not character driven and that writers just shoehorned in guess stars for the sake of it.

For example if Spider-Man got into trouble he couldn't handle he would just call on the FF to get him out of trouble....LAZY, SELF-INDULGENT WRITING.

I'm really enjoying the approach of the New 52.

I dunno about crossovers, but there should be more cohesion. Each title does have a very separate feel to it, and I'm okay with that to a degree. Atleast I don't feel like I'm missing out on something when a character mentions something that happened in another comic. Still though, maybe they should at least have comics that have something directly to do with one another have a little more fluidity between them. Like Superboy and Teen Titans for example.

Summer is coming. Just wait until Pandora goes apeshit on the DCU and it's Crisis all over again. THEN the titles will all go together...

Whether we like it or not.

Each title is still establishing the lead character and his/her New 52 persona. Once this is established there should be more interaction (and thus cohesion) amongst the New 52 titles/DC Universe.

Is it a bit early for too many cross - overs? I expect more inter-action between titles over the next 6 months, once opening story arcs are completed and books become established. However, as soon as cross - over's begin, how long before someone complains about Superman / Batman / Wonder Woman / Green Lantern being over used?

@Red_Justice: I don't agree with that at all. You would rather I Spider-Man writer come up with some lame, over-the-top, completely random idea, action, or event to explain how Spider-Man could have possibly won against impossible odds to him realizing he needs help and calling for it? I would rather have him make the call because it adds to his character to write him realizing he can't take on every situation by himself (cough......Batman writers learn this lesson......cough) and calls for help. If there was one book that actually did special guest appearances correctly it would be Spider-Man, whose always worked closely or had help from various heroes such as Black Cat, Daredevil, Iron Fist, Captain America, etc.... dependent on the story and for the most part its worked perfectly.

Crossovers aside there is a great amount of cohesion in this new 52 universe. It is subtle but there if you pick up on all the small points running through all the books.

I think everyone is getting to hung up on the word "cross-over". I think this article is pointing out, rightly might i add, that the books that have shared characters are not treating them with the same characterization from book to book. It seems that because the universe is new that each writer is taking a shot at redefining the characters. Although its just as likely that no one really knows how these new versions are supposed to act because they haven't been defined clearly as they haven't had any storylines to breathe in.

What is being suggested here is that if Superman or Batman sound and act one way in one book that they remain consistent across the board. I don't think that will happen until they have a few stories to coalecse around and the reading public has a chance to really identify with certain interpretations, reject others, and they permeate through the line. It's an organic process and this kind of inconsistency has to be expected at this stage, unless there was major editorial intervention, which is usually a bad thing.

Yes! My god yes! When this thing started, I had the impression that DC sat all of their creators down in a meeting (or a series of meetings), had them pitch their ideas, and then their editors worked with the creators to establish the direction of the universe over the next 18 issues (or so) and what would remain in continuity and would be lost. But as it turns out, there was little communication between creators and everything was just slapped together. Gail Simone had no idea that Batgirl was going to appear in Birds of Prey. Scott Snyder and Jeff Lemire, in spite of having clearly have worked together the most (without any direction from DC), didn't even know what to call The Rot until the third month of the reboot. Superman exists in three different time-lines. Wonder Woman understands punk rock but doesn't know about ice cream. Batman has had four Robins in five years (and who knows how many Batgirls). Batman is fighting vampires, and Enchantress, and the Court of Owls, and giant monsters, and Darkseid, and Catwoman, and problems in Africa, and stitched together corpses, and girls in skimpy rabbit costumes, and Nobody, and everybody! And rather than trying to answer any of the thousands of questions we have, each writer seems to be trying harder and harder to avoid issues of continuity and remain ambiguous. I'm not suggesting that there needs to be a company-wide crossover or that there's no room for just focusing on one story. I'm just saying that creators needs to communicate better and the shared direction of the universe needs to be made a lot clearer because, right now, everything is kind of a mess.

If the start of the "new 52" had been done differently I would say interactions between the characters at this point would be unnecessary but the way this revamp was done makes me say more cohesion is necessary.

We'll go with the Teen Titans first.G-man already made a great point about Tim's apartment being blown up (I'd like to add the visual disparity of his age between Teen Titans and Batman as well) but how about the simply fact that there is a government organization kidnapping or killing teenage meta humans. That doesn't grab anyone's attention aside from Tim? Bruce isn't in any way gathering intel on N.O.W.H.E.R.E or coming up with plans to stop them? The other heroes haven't been alerted to this threat? That seems extremely unlikely. To go away from comics for a second one of the things I like most about the Young Justice tv series (not its crazy air schedule....by the way anyone hear when the next episode is coming out....was supposed to be early January but now everything says TBD) is that all the big guns in the superhero community seem to know what's going on and they pass that information around to each other. Doesn't seem like that in this new 52.

But the Teen Titans have to be established for themselves and I get that. What I don't think should have happened was that N.O.W.H.E.R.E. was introduced right off the bat. Give them some random villain to bring them all together and then once they are an established team you bring out the big revelation about N.O.W.H.E.R.E or have it being an underlying idea of the first story arc. You don't have to introduce them right from the start just to get the big villain out from the start.....or even all the characters for that matter. I could have done without Superboy being in two series right from the start. Let the Teen Titans grow a bit under Tim so that lesser characters have a chance to grow, let Superboy grow in his own series, and then in like a year or two you bring Superboy into the Teen Titans series....but it didn't have to be now.

Last thing on the Teen Titans......was there a previous version. Both Jason Todd and Roy Harper have asked Starfire about her interactions with Dick and others but she doesn't remember. Were they on a team? Isn't that something Tim would probably know and possibly comment on even if it was just to himself?

Let's talk about another series.....Stormwatch. What a load of bull this series is. What first irked me was this flimsy explanation of how they hide their activities because of living cities and satellite disruption, etc.... and for the most part I get all that. But let's just consider the fact that Superman can pretty much hear EVERYTHING GOING ON ON THE ENTIRE PLANET AND SEE TO OTHER PLANETS. I mean, how can a writer truly make a reader think that a huge battle in space, a meteor shower, and a huge battle on the planet's surface is not going to attract the attention of other heroes regardless of communication disruptions. But if that wasn't bad enough, then the Green Lantern Corps writers had to bring Martian Manhunter into their title and somehow he's able to completely bypass the entire security system of the most secure planet in the entire freaking galaxy seemingly on a whim. He also states he'll erase Guy's memory of their encounter which is completely contradictory to the fact that the GL rings are designed to protect their wearer from such mental tamperings.

Do I want a crossover, absolutely not. I wish that the pink woman had never been created or any sort of impeding crisis alluded to. I like the fact that DC doesn't do one massive event after another (I mean really, how many times does New York have to be rebuilt Marvel) but now almost five months into the revamp I would say I'm a bit disappointed by the total experience (though some books have been good) and part of that has been the lack of cohesion and simple consistencies through various titles. The fact that some of the redesigns smack of what I hated in mid-to-late 90's comics is not helping either.

I feel like there is some cohesion in the new 52 universe.... but a lot of that is just down to DC putting batman in almost every single book.... I would just really have liked DC to make extra effort to create a universe where there is enough continuity to explain everything, but other stuff is left vauge enough so that its open to interpretation, basically just avoid contradicting one and each other.

Also big crossover events are clearly successful, Marvel has one every other weekend and DC has done their share before.. at the end of the day they are businesses trying to make a buck, and that means that they can't always be concerned with artistic integrity.

I would be happy if characters at least started acting like the same people from title to title.

@playdohsrepublic said:

I think everyone is getting to hung up on the word "cross-over". I think this article is pointing out, rightly might i add, that the books that have shared characters are not treating them with the same characterization from book to book. It seems that because the universe is new that each writer is taking a shot at redefining the characters. Although its just as likely that no one really knows how these new versions are supposed to act because they haven't been defined clearly as they haven't had any storylines to breathe in.

What is being suggested here is that if Superman or Batman sound and act one way in one book that they remain consistent across the board. I don't think that will happen until they have a few stories to coalecse around and the reading public has a chance to really identify with certain interpretations, reject others, and they permeate through the line. It's an organic process and this kind of inconsistency has to be expected at this stage, unless there was major editorial intervention, which is usually a bad thing.

Exactly. I'm talking about how the same character has a different feel in different titles, despite being the same character.

It seems really weird having this new Superman alude to his death and return. They should have scrapped that idea and just started completely from scratch. Did this fight with Doomsday happen sometime inbetween the 5 year gap between Superman titles?? Or is the Swamp thing title set further in the future than the Supes titles?

I widely agree - the new DCU needs much more cohesion, I just call it continuity of characters and universe. And, yes, I also agree with the statement, that there's no need for major cross overs.

But a characters should have some continuitiy regardless who writes the characters and in which book he appears. It's sort of brand recognition and therefore to disregard it is not a wise business decision, in my opinion. And if you move characters into one universe and then you kill hundreds or even thousands in a story arc and nobody recognizes it ... than it leaves just a bad feeling.

I mean it's really no problem to tell totally stand-alone story arcs for example Batman investigating any underground organisation (because nobody will know it) or Green Lantern fighting any villain outer space or whereever or even Stormwatch saving the world (but nobody ever knows because The Projectionist juggles the world media) ... but if you have a worlds end story, a major incident that can't be ignored, a secret organisation hunting down young superhumans (that isn't recognized by the Justice League?) or any story arc with a character involved ... this can not be ignored in related books or within a universe.

That is so annoying ... and maybe the reason I soon will drop all DC books again ... reading just one or two books ... or even none ... and that's I'm pretty sure about is the opposite of what a marketing strategy should aim for: to decrease the books I'm willing (or I can stand) to read instead of increasing it.

Yes! Even though I'm more of a Marvel guy, I always thought the one thing DC clearly did better was have characters popping up in each others books all the time. They didn't do it so that so--and-so was "guest-starring" in a particular issue or story arc - it just happened organically. It made it seem like everyone was part of the same big universe.

I can't remeber who said it (i apologize) but it is apparant that DC didn't gather all of their writers form the new 52 into one big room. Talk over the new univers and the new direaction that each character was being taken into (or at least had out a big multy page memo dictating this information to each writer) and then gain a larger understanding of how this world was now opparating. Instead It seems more like a "hey guys were reastingting most of our stuff now from #1. you guys will be doing batman. you guys will be doing superman, and you guys will be doing ambush bug (:P). Dont talk amongs yourselvs, get creative and we'll green light it or not." I mean, DC is a buisses and as a buissnes you would expect them to get all of these people together to talk over this "big move" months if not a year in advance. But instead we've ended up with a time sclae of 7-5 years of super-herois which dosnt make any scence considering the back stories of most of the characters (i.e. the many robins), certain characters being over saturated in their appearances in a large number of books (batman appears as a main character in 6 titles, and then as a guest chatacter in god knows how many more), a gagillion secret organizations doing evil and sinister deeds without anybody but "one" character knowing about it (all at the same time, may i add) and writers using characters who, for the time being, are being written by another writer in their own books and giving them compleatly diffarent personalities to the ones that are trying to be established in that one characters main title.

It dose seem that appart from the "we're going to revamp back to issue 1, change some character desings and character backstories" no more thought was put into the current cohesion of the univers that took decades to create and shape. Plus it also doesnt helpe that DC has created the "pandora" character as a scape gote which, if all things go bad, theycan use to go back to how things once were.

What needs (or needed) to be done is that the writers themselves should talk to each other about whats going on, so that they understand how each creator is taking a certain character in their own way. No cross-overs should happen at the moment (I am a fan of crossovers, but at the moment when your trying to establish a new character its not good to have batman turn up all of a sudden and say "I'm batman, five minuts ago i was fighting the court of owls, three hours before that i was fighting giant robots with the JLI and before that i was trying to teach my son controll by buying him a doberman, so how the fuck did i get here?" and take all the light). and certain characters should have only been allocated so many books.... I'm looking at you batman.

Despite my enjoyment of many of these new titles (and i do enjoy most of them) i think DC's "restarting so that new readers can understand whats going on" plan has fallen short as now not only do new readers dont understand whats going on, but older readers also dont understand whats going on (lets face it out of the 52 titles 5 of the books are taking place in the past, whith only 2 of them being abvious from the covers, ones taking place in a parallel universe as a set up for other, hopefully better, books to take place in said parallel universe, and ive already mentioned the multiple appearances of batman).. Cohesion is needed, not only in the books, but also amongst the writers.

I think the response to this article sums up why DC isn't in a rush to make sure characters and comics are cohesive. While G-man was addressing the issue of "cohesion" the response to the article was strongly against "cross-over".

Seems like people aren't noticing how characters seem different in different comics even though the "universe" is supposed to be the same. If something serious is happening in Teen Titans and the same time Robin is appearing in Batman, it is weird for Robin to not mention to Batman or the Justice League this serious problem of heroes being kidnapped.

Maybe comic readers just want to enjoy different books and not the DC universe as a whole. This would lead DC to not worry about cohesion until a cross-over where they can market multiple books under the same story.

I really don't mind not seeing every single character in a book. I think that it is fine how it is for now but as the books go on, then get more cohesion.

I am more concerned with DCs strikingly apparent screwing up over the timeline in the new 52. All the things that are supposed to have happened in such a short amount of time is kind of alarming to me and something I don't think they fully thought through.

I think everyone is getting to hung up on the word "cross-over". I think this article is pointing out, rightly might i add, that the books that have shared characters are not treating them with the same characterization from book to book. It seems that because the universe is new that each writer is taking a shot at redefining the characters. Although its just as likely that no one really knows how these new versions are supposed to act because they haven't been defined clearly as they haven't had any storylines to breathe in.

What is being suggested here is that if Superman or Batman sound and act one way in one book that they remain consistent across the board. I don't think that will happen until they have a few stories to coalecse around and the reading public has a chance to really identify with certain interpretations, reject others, and they permeate through the line. It's an organic process and this kind of inconsistency has to be expected at this stage, unless there was major editorial intervention, which is usually a bad thing. 

I feel crossovers should be done once, maybe twice, a year. Just to give people a good story to look forward to and it helps with the big picture of showing that this is one universe. It would also be a lot more fun if major events only happened once or twice too. At least I think so anyway. As for this one if Pandora does lead to a major crossover I hope its a huge battle of sorts between new DCnU and the old DCU. That way we'll filter out the good from the bad in a way. DC would probably kill off any characters from the DCnU that aren't selling well or as well as they'd like and replace them with they're former selfs. Plus I just want to see what the older characters think of their new selfs. New 52 Superman vs Pre-Flashpoint Superman would be awesome. Same for characters like Supergirl, Superboy, The Teen Titans, The Birds of Prey, Batgirl, Catwoman and Wonder Woman. It would be interesting to see if they get a long or not as well.

Agreed!

1) There should be the same look n feel of a given character in all the series if they are on same timeline.

2) more clarity on timeline as well

3) earth shattering event in one series: is worth atleast a mention in other series.

They do have some crossovers here n there like for example: there is a reference of fury of firestorm in superman #1....

Also as they have just started, it is also possible will clear up the cloud much later in the issues on the exact timelines these are running on...

Given all that, I would say that if the DC Universe needs anything it's even less crossovers. Let the characters and their supporting cast grow for a while, then have the rare appearance of another hero. But only if you really can't avoid it or if it's carefully planned.

Yes, there is definite agreement that more cohesiveness is needed within this New 52. I think its just part of the growing pains involved with this new developing reality. If it seems there is a lack of consistency now its just because there needs to be more character development. Now granted, with some small crossovers already maintained in this new regime, it does feel as if characters have consistency. But in all fairness that was a typical thing of some characters if they were written across multiple titles in the pre-Flashpoint reality as well. I mean I can't name any particular instance off the top of my head, but it seems like consistency and cohesion has always been an issue in the comics world with regard to crossovers. And in the end yes, the very term crossover is like a black flag for us comic fans, for that implies event, and by this point I'm sure its safe to say we are ALL burned out on them. Personally I think the cohesiveness will come along when more little crossovers and cross-title appearances are made. Little by little until finally we do have a very cohesive New 52 reality that is sufficient for everyone's satisfaction.

The same could be said about Marvel, in every book  Wolverine and Silver Surfer appear in they seem to have totally different characters. 

I just want good stories, honestly. I'm taking the Golden/Silver Age approach to DC's comics and ignoring everything that doesn't occur in the titles I read. So what if Wonder Woman hasn't mentioned anything about her time in the League? I couldn't care less.

Establishment. Development. Teamwork.

well i think there is some crossovers comin in just a few months to year because of the events happening in

1.swamp thing and animal man

2. the invisble aliens that are in voodoo, grifter, and soon to apear in superman

Great article. I've thought the same thing so it's good I'm not alone on this. It's funny because I actually want a big crossover or event to happen because it's hard seeing everything from the New DCU operating in the same universe.

The New DC Universe differently needs more cohesion. Maybe the fact that it was obviously rushed has something to do with it. I don't know. I think all this is one initial flaw to the whole "have each book feel different" strategy. It's just not realistic that Stormwatch can pretty much hide what their doing with guys like Superman or Batman (The Worlds Greatest Detective) around. It's just not. How can N.O.B.O.D.Y can snatch up all these Teen heroes and none of the Adult heroes pick up on it?

I mean, we all know an event is coming soon. The sooner it comes, the better so we can dead this conversation lol.

at the moment there geting the characters off the ground next they wikll make the universe more solid , but it does feel like they havent even figured it out as a whole yet

I personally hate when other characters crossover to another prominent characters story. To me, most of the time it messes up the mythos and serves as a distraction.

I think the less interaction the better. I also wish they were separate. It is hard to think of the events of Animal Man and Swamp Thing happening in the same universe as Batman at the same time.

Of course it depends on the individual comic, but I feel that comic interaction should be kept to a minimum. The last thing DC should do is end up like Marvel and have every comic involved in story arc after story arc. Lame.

Absolutely not, these titles all need time to establish themselves on their own merit.

I'm hoping for a battle against Darkseid that involves the JL, JLI, Teen Titans, and maybe some other characters like Firestorm.