Off My Mind: Should Batman Be Promoting Vigilantism?

Batman INC: Bruce's version of Rah's 'League of Shadows'.

I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if someone has said this already (apologies if they have) but instead of claiming to be a peacekeeping force (like the JLA) should Batman Inc claim to be a private police force? 'coz thats more or less what they are. (Although you could also argue that the JLA are more protectors of earth, who deal with the more worldly/intergalactic threats rather than a crime fighting organisation.)

Batman Inc. sounds like Stormwatch, no?

Batman / Bruce Wayne IS vigilantism! It's the core of the character ... of course there were times Batman had become kinda "official" - I always hated this direction. Batman is an anti-hero like Clint Eastwood in Sergio Leone's Spaghetti Western - a good man in principle, but lost faith in the good in the system ... so he takes action himself, helping the innocent and the weak ... and when involved deeply, he will even try to change the system. Batman is not an idealistic hero like Superman or Captain America ... he's pure vigilantism.
 
So of course he should promote vigilantism ... 'cause he's Batman!

" Hes in waaay over his head, I think were looking at the future fall of Wayne Enterprises. Has any other superheroes pulled Bruce to the side and tell him he may be going too far with this. "

Batman is not Promoting Vigilantism, Batman is a symbol.  A Symbol of that "Dark Knight" who protects it's city.   There will always be people doing things they are not suppose to and Batman may be a scapegoat.
 
This is why I miss the urban legend angle lost with Batman Inc.  I trust Grant Morrison, but the Urban Legend angle worked because Bruce was not Promoting Vigilantism is people were not sure he was real.  With Bruce admitting he financed Bats and Bats is real, may be Morrison will address Vigilantism.  I trust Morrison, he is the best active writer in the Mainstream in my opinion.  
 
Other writers may keep Batman a shallow Vigilante, but I believe Morrison will redefine Bats in a way no other writer who works for the big two can.  With many of the things I have written about Morrison and Batman, the ties to Magick are strong.  Batman is a Symbol.  Much like how The Invisibles is a Hypersigil, what Morrison is doing with Batman, Batman has been raised to this classic Vertigo level I miss so much.
 
As for Wayne Enterprises, I think once the recruits are in we will see more Bruce Wayne away from Batman and dealing with the fall out of the BATMEN.  By doing this Bruce can grow away from Bats and Bats can grow away from Bruce.  This will further strengthen the idea Batman is more then the man.  Batman is a needed Symbol for the city he servers.  Much like how Superman is meant to Inspire us all as people, I think Batman is meant to Inspire a city to take back their home.  

"

I really can't get behind this thing. I just think this is so far outside Bruce's character that I don't understand why they decided to go this direction. I had high hopes for his return and then they turned it into this. I mean, it's like Steve Rogers all over again, somehow when the originals come back now they're not allowed to go back to who they were they have to go off and do stupid things.

 

The fact remains however that the governments have agencies set-up for peacekeepers. Vigilantes more often get in the way than assist. I am waiting for the entire endeavor to blow up in his face.

"

I really can't get behind this thing. I just think this is so far outside Bruce's character that I don't understand why they decided to go this direction. I had high hopes for his return and then they turned it into this. I mean, it's like Steve Rogers all over again, somehow when the originals come back now they're not allowed to go back to who they were they have to go off and do stupid things.

The fact remains however that the governments have agencies set-up for peacekeepers. Vigilantes more often get in the way than assist. I am waiting for the entire endeavor to blow up in his face.

Over the years of saving the earth multiple times Batman has earned his credibility. He isn't some government forcing its will, he's BATMAN and he has proven himself.  It's selective vigilantism too not vigilantism in general. 
 
I dont see it as different than individual super heroes in general who are all vigilantes, at least batman works with the cops thats more than the others do. sept for maybe superman.

Um, hasn't Batman always been about Vigilantism? Granted, a well intentioned vigilante, but he operates outside the law (although he sometimes cooperates with GCPD). I don't know how most of the criminals he brings to 'justice' get convicted, or how he's managed to dodge civil and criminal law suites himself. 
 
But I don't let that detract from the story. Sorya' like pointing out plot holes in Star Wars. I just sit back and enjoy the whole thing.

" @FadeToBlackBolt: Batman is a criminal and deserves to be locked away in Arkham Asylum."

Bruce and the others have shown that they are willing to hunt down and turn over the guilty of their party with Jason Todd so it isn't all that much of a problem coming from the rogue operative stand point. 
 
From the standpoint of promoting vigilantism... from what can be deciphered from the 2 or 3 stories that have points regarding new Batman operatives they aren't people who wouldn't have taken to vigilantism anyways. Bruce is giving them the tools, training, and enforcing a set of ideals on people that would be out there on their own as untrained, unequiped and random variables.

As anyone who has read or seen the movies for Watchmen or Kick Ass can attest  Vigilantism is DANGEROUS!   So if your stupid enough to try it, more power to you.  I just figure you better be well equipped and well trained.  Otherwise, your probably dead. 

I thought Commissioner Gordon deputized Batman way back in the day.

" @ForbushBug said:

" The important thing to remember is that Batman is a self-righteous, arrogant control freak and I mean that in the most loving way. He has no problem breaking laws in his own war on crime but heaven forbid another masked man shows up in Gotham that hasn't gotten his seal of approval. That attitude showed up in the JLA too with his secret contingency plans and whatnot. Now he's decided to mark his territory worldwide. I believe there was even a scene some years back where Dick Grayson when he was still fresh as Robin asked what happens if they rid Gotham City of crime and Batman replied they'd just move on to the next place. What Batman is doing isn't promoting vigilantism in the general sense but promoting his own view on justice upon the world because he's a tool. An effective tool, but still a tool. "

 
Yeah....no...just no.   Batman is a natural response to the psychotic world we live in. Laws are created and enforced purely for the convenience of the rich, there is not inherent morality in humanity in this age. The world is a terrible place, and Batman is the only logical antidote to the disease that is this world.   Batman was created by crime, the world creates crime, Batman recreates the world without crime, thus making himself superfluous. He's not self-righteous, he doesn't want to exist. He has to exist. He's a "control freak" because he needs to be, no one else is capable. He has a contingency plan for the JL, of course he does. It's a group of super aliens and ubergods, but no, he must be paranoid to want to protect the human race from that potential apocalypse. It's not like Superman would ever get controlled by Maxwell Lord or anything.   He is not a tool. He is the greatest fictional character of all time, and if this world had a Batman, maybe it wouldn't be such a worthless cesspool. "

Well this was fun to read lmfao!

This looks like a Lois Lane article. 

" The important thing to remember is that Batman is a self-righteous, arrogant control freak and I mean that in the most loving way. He has no problem breaking laws in his own war on crime but heaven forbid another masked man shows up in Gotham that hasn't gotten his seal of approval. That attitude showed up in the JLA too with his secret contingency plans and whatnot. Now he's decided to mark his territory worldwide. I believe there was even a scene some years back where Dick Grayson when he was still fresh as Robin asked what happens if they rid Gotham City of crime and Batman replied they'd just move on to the next place. What Batman is doing isn't promoting vigilantism in the general sense but promoting his own view on justice upon the world because he's a tool. An effective tool, but still a tool. "

I don't understand the tone of this article. Batman is a vigilante, this is not a new development. Virtually all superheroes are vigilantes. 
 
Also, if this were happening in the real world, I'd see little reason to be concerned compared to the expansion and militarization of "legitimate" police forces. It is ridiculously easy to become a cop in most jurisdictions in the US, even if you have a long history of being fired or investigated for crimes. It is hard to fire a policeman because of their unions and even more difficult to convict them even of very serious and brazen crimes. The police investigate themselves, after all, and their buddies in the district attorney's office routinely give them passes that the average citizen would never get. I guarantee that Batman's training/vetting process is much stricter than most police departments, at least in the United States, and they would not operate under the same shield of impunity that cops do.

" The important thing to remember is that Batman is a self-righteous, arrogant control freak and I mean that in the most loving way. He has no problem breaking laws in his own war on crime but heaven forbid another masked man shows up in Gotham that hasn't gotten his seal of approval. That attitude showed up in the JLA too with his secret contingency plans and whatnot. Now he's decided to mark his territory worldwide. I believe there was even a scene some years back where Dick Grayson when he was still fresh as Robin asked what happens if they rid Gotham City of crime and Batman replied they'd just move on to the next place. What Batman is doing isn't promoting vigilantism in the general sense but promoting his own view on justice upon the world because he's a tool. An effective tool, but still a tool. "

" @onlywonderboy said:

" I think everyone is too hung up on the logistics of it all. As it's been stated, in a word of alien invasions and the dead rising, why can't we just suspend out disbelief that  Wayne Enterprises can fund Batman without any repercussions from the law. "

Logistics aren't the end-all and be-all to quality writing, we can certainly get past them, but the question is why did the story confront us with it then?  If Batman Inc has no real accountability and no real cooperation, why write in a scene to make a point of it when the same story could be told without it at all? 
 
For example, in the film Avatar, we get the epic gathering of the tribes from every corner and culture of Pandora to create an army en masse for the final confrontation.  Wonderful, great, it pulls it off without a hitch and few would ever question it nor should they.  However, let's say they suddenly injected a scene about supply chains, material support, food, water, latrines, etc.  Then went about their merry way fighting the Sky People.  At that point, since the film confronted you with the issue, it would make sense for audiences to start questioning... "Hey, if they're so ecologically minded, wouldn't all the food, water, and waste requirements of such a large force utterly decimate the local ecology?  Even if they all held it in and didn't eat or drink a bite, wouldn't the sheer mass and volume create a destructive swath the way the masses do through national parks?  How are they supporting all that biomass?" and so on. 
 
If the Batman story itself raises questions of law, accountability, cooperation, and roles... how is it at all unreasonable for the audience to take a look at those things? "

Batman Inc. is a franchise, like Mcdonalds, and no two counties with Mcdonalds may make war with each other. Perhaps Batman Inc. has the same law, making it officialy a type of peacekeeping agency?

The important thing to remember is that Batman is a self-righteous, arrogant control freak and I mean that in the most loving way. He has no problem breaking laws in his own war on crime but heaven forbid another masked man shows up in Gotham that hasn't gotten his seal of approval. That attitude showed up in the JLA too with his secret contingency plans and whatnot. Now he's decided to mark his territory worldwide. I believe there was even a scene some years back where Dick Grayson when he was still fresh as Robin asked what happens if they rid Gotham City of crime and Batman replied they'd just move on to the next place. What Batman is doing isn't promoting vigilantism in the general sense but promoting his own view on justice upon the world because he's a tool. An effective tool, but still a tool.

but what happens when one of these new batman's gets themselves killed. does wayne take responsibility for that. its like jason todd all over again

Allow me to quote from the 1966 Batman film: 
 
Catwoman (disguised as Ms. Kitka): "You are like the masked vigilantes in the westerns, no?" 
 
Commissioner Gordon (appalled): "Certainly not! Batman and Robin are fully deputized agents of the law." 
 
Robin: "Support your police, that's our message." 
 
Batman: "Well said, Robin." 
 
I quote the above to illustrate how Batman wasn't always thought of as an illegal vigilante. In the 60's he did work hand-in-hand with the police and I even remember an issue where he was allowed to take the stand as Batman. I'm pretty sure this is the spirit Grant is trying to channel with Batman, Inc.  
 
Of course, in the Modern Age we get pretty hung up on the realistic legalities of Batman's vigilante status. However, and I've read posts that have mentioned this before, Batman doesn't live in our world. He lives in the DC Universe which does have (once again this was mentioned before) a legion of active vigilantes. Just think of how many masked crime fighters there have been in Batman's world: Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Azrael, Huntress, the Question, the Green arrow family, The International Club of Heroes, etc. etc. etc. Would it really be that much of a logical leap then to say that the world authorities might welcome a program that takes some of the loose cannons in the vigilante community and trains them? These vigilantes and pretenders are certainly around regardless of Batman, Inc., and who better to teach them than arguably the greatest and most respected vigilante in the world: Batman! Hasn't he already done a great job training his Robins and taking former loose cannons like Huntress and Spoiler under his wing to make them more effective and responsible crime fighters? I'm sure with his reputation, credentials, and with Wayne Enterprise backing, plenty of governments would welcome this kind of solution to potential vigilante problems. 
  
Now, I can't speak for Grant. I'm not sure if he's going to tackle this issue, if it'll get tackled in one of the other Bat-titles, or if it will even get tackled at all. All I'm saying is, in the context of the DCU, the issue of Batman, Inc. and vigilantism doesn't really stretch my personal suspension of disbelief. And anyway, don't we have bounty hunters and private security firms in our world that take the law and security into their own hands? Why is it that much more of a stretch to believe in a firm of crime-fighting detectives? Try to look past the illegal vigilante hang-up (which really only came about in the 1980's anyway) and enjoy the ride. That's what I'm doing. 

Should he? Yes. He has to pass it down somehow and Dick Grayson can't do what Bruce can. I think this is a WAY better idea than creating another Justice League or something.  A group of regular humans being trained to be as powerful as superhuman. I like the idea that he is using his money and power to upgrade the human race. 
 
Batman Inc. wont fail or succeed. For the same reason that the Justice League, Teen Titans, etc don't fail or succeed. They will plateau as institutions in the unending struggle between good and evil. What I am looking forward to is the COUNTER to Batman Inc! Imagine Joker & Sons! Or Bane & Bros! This will turn into another world war fought by good and evil corporations...just like wars are fought in real life!

yes and no....Yes for me because if it was my choice I would put on a costume nothing so dramatic looking..something like batman's would work...and go out there because People need Heroes...in this Century we live in its Horrible I wish we did have Heroes to stop these crimes and wars. But Of course the NO part has to come into play because they aren't unstoppable, bullet proof, can run in faster then the speed of light, turn invisible, or have these great fighting skills like batman with million of dollars for equipment, they are just humans who can get hurt badly or die. So this simply a yes or no conflict.

The latest issue of Batman Inc. was exciting and fun though I am sure some will not like the ending it seems that this article is looking at Batman Inc as an extension of Bruce's corporate life when it is clear that it is more like a superhero team and extension of Batman.

Its a rather Machiavelian thing, but that keeps it interesting. Dull arcs where everything resets itself at the end just don't cut it anymore (looking at you Blackest Night/Brightest Day). Eventually the conceptualization of a character has to reach its conclusion and it makes no sense for someone with the resources Bruce has to only give a damn about helping people in a single city or to adhere to the more idealistic and naive spectre of the Justice League.

That's so Batman

The last thing that bruce is doing is promoting vigilatism,   anyone that tries to get into  his line of work  unless they can meet his standards and be controlled by him   they get flushed faster than  dead goldfish...   he just knows that you need a certain edge to go against certain crimmials, simple police work doesn't  cut it....

For those saying it's out of character, Batman was recently a pirate and a caveman and whatnot, that changes a man. He hasn't really revealed much personality since he got back except for a "bigger picture" thing, and long story short... he's  crazy. In a good way. Maybe.

Batman was promoting vigilantism when he was a member of the Justice League. Every superhero group in comics is derived from a bunch of vigilantes getting together. Superheros are ultimately vigilantes themselves.  
 
So the question is somewhat redundant. Batman was "promoting" this behavior from the moment he decided to fight crime.  

This stuff is totally Batman.

" Vigilantism is good~  Huh..? What? Did I wrote that?  Anyway, let's not forget that in the end of the day, the Batman Inc acts in the DCUniverse, a place that as seen a Manhunters invasion, multiple universes crisises, people raising from the dead, colorful Villains United and many more fantastic events~ I can imagine why cops/the law/goverments would accept these "super" men. "

I am pro Vigilantism.

All I can think off that this is leading to a major cluster f**** for Batman ( story wise I mean ) , Wayne enterprise going bankrupt from sues , nations hunting down for Batman inc. members , and super villians  taking advantage of the Bat costumes (why wouldnt they?)

" @InnerVenom123 said:

" This is such a stupid idea.   Wayne's company is responsible. If he HADN'T revealed he was funding Batman, this might seem more plausible.  Oh well. It's not. "

I tend to agree, despite my almost unhealthy love for Batman, Morrison and Morrison's Batman run so far (R.I.P being one of the best trades ever, imo), I too am very hesitant as to how this could possibly work out well, both in and out of the story itself. "