Off My Mind: Is Hulk The Strongest There Is?

" Do you think I am saying its a fact that Hulk can lift any amount because it hasn't been proven he can't?  "

" @SC said:

"  The quote you made of mine, of course applying to definitive proof, of course, educated guessing and reasoning can bypass any need for proof, in one is not trying to state something, is or isn't proven.  "

Being coy isn't concise.  So, despite the implication, you've not met the burden of educated guessing or reasoning to "bypass any need for proof" with your "show me a limit" strawman. "

"As it stands, while one can't prove that Hulk can lift a weight he never has before, its a very reasonable assumption to think, given his anger fluctuates in strength, and has been refereed to limitless on many occasion, that a lifting a weight thats a third of the weight of the earth, is not something unlikely. "

"
@SC said:

" Do you think I am saying its a fact that Hulk can lift any amount because it hasn't been proven he can't?  "

@Mainline said:

" @SC said:

"  The quote you made of mine, of course applying to definitive proof, of course, educated guessing and reasoning can bypass any need for proof, in one is not trying to state something, is or isn't proven.  "

Being coy isn't concise.  So, despite the implication, you've not met the burden of educated guessing or reasoning to "bypass any need for proof" with your "show me a limit" strawman. "

@SC said: 

"As it stands, while one can't prove that Hulk can lift a weight he never has before, its a very reasonable assumption to think, given his anger fluctuates in strength, and has been refereed to limitless on many occasion, that a lifting a weight thats a third of the weight of the earth, is not something unlikely. "

"

"a reasonable assumptionis notproof of evidence "

" educated guessing and reasoning can bypass any need for proof"

Wasn't Ghost Rider the only one able to beat him in WWH, but just chose not to?

" @SC said:

"a reasonable assumption is notproof of evidence "

@SC said:

" educated guessing and reasoning can bypass any need for proof"

"

They may have objective evidence which supports their reasoning"  

"a reasonable assumption is not proof of evidence " 

 despite the implication, you've not met the burden

Either one could potentially be right or wrong, and both could actually be wrong and right.

" @BattleMage said:

" @spidey 15 said:

" @BattleMage: WTF are you talking about?  Oh and Superman is by far stronger. Let me know when Hulk will be able to move something that weighs as much as 1/3 of the planet. =] "

Just off you're head, how much weight is that?  Oh, and the Hulk can, he just haven't been in that situation yet. And if ever is he'll do it without the help of a lantern! Take care "

Obviously much more than what Hulk has ever lift or pull..... Oh, speculation. I love speculation. If you can prove it, it will be good. If you can not prove that Hulk can do the same, then he can not.  Oh, and superman pulled 1/3 of the planet alone! The other 2/3 has been pulled by Wonder Woman and Manhunter. =] "

" @SC said: 

They may have objective evidence which supports their reasoning"  

 @SC said: 

"a reasonable assumption is not proof of evidence " 

@Mainline said:

 despite the implication, you've not met the burden

 @SC said: 

Either one could potentially be right or wrong, and both could actually be wrong and right.

"

" @spidey 15 said:

" @SC: In order to know if someone is capable of something, we are using their feats. This is what i'm trying to say. If Hulk has not the said feats to prove that he can't, then the character who has the superior feats, is obviously stronger until the other prove otherwise. Hulk has not prove that he is stronger than superman and superman has the superiority in feats. We can not say that Hulk can do the same or better, because he has never shown that he can. Your examples of muffins does not help here because of feats, he can do it.  My smiley is my mark....lol I always post it. =] "

 
In order to know if someone is capable of something, you use their feats. Knowing what someone is capable of, is again, vastly different, to proving what someone is capable of. There isn't something that just applies to Hulk, its logic. You can use preexisting evidence to help determine the likelihood of something being likely or likely, but thats something different to what you were doing granted by your express wording.   The burden of proof is not on someone arguing for Hulk in this instance, unless, a person was arguing that Hulk, can, undoubtedly, lift such a weight, he may have never before. Then, the burden of proof would be on them to indeed prove this. Likewise, you are claiming Hulk can't lift something, what is your proof? Proof as in not your opinion or burden of proof argument. Your statement needs your proof especially if you are saying its proven. If you saying that he hasn't so far, then thats not actually proof. Proof would be showing me an example, where Hulk was unable to say lift an inferior rate and we knew he lacked the capacity to grow angrier or so on, and thus increase in strength.   Hulk doesn't need to be proven superior to Superman because him not having proof of that, is not proof he isn't either.   We can say that Hulk may do better, since we don't know. Hulk has no physical limit to his strength. Superman may not either. Hulk's strength may fluctuate faster. There are more questions here than answers.   My example works perfectly here, according to your logic, since Superman has never lifted a muffin i have made, there that is proof that he can not. My muffin example points out the rather flaw in your logic regarding what is evidence or proof.      

" Is Hulk the strongest? It's a possibility, I guess, but I was so offended by World War Hulk on the basis that him being able to plow through almost everyone in the MU is just not realistic at all, whatsoever.   Brute force like his means next to nothing to me. Kitty Pryde could've simply flown a plane through his head, phased it, phase out of the plane, and unphased and he'd be dead and I'm sure there are hundreds of possibilities similar to that one.   So he's the strongest? So what. He still has no control over his powers, he's not that bright when he's gone feral, and he makes his problems everyone else's. Forget all these comparisons, Hulk is just downright annoying. "

 Your last couple of posts seem to contradict your original posting replies. lol "

" @SC said:

 Your last couple of posts seem to contradict your original posting replies. lol "

Took you long enough. :P "

" @SC said:

 Your last couple of posts seem to contradict your original posting replies. lol "

Took you long enough. :P  I pointed it out in my original post.  That you were nitpicking a negation which only obfuscated the intentions of the poster.  Then by further picking nits, repetition, and being off-topic you only cloud the actual issue... to the point  you weren't sure if you needed to return to the original point already addressed in the original post, where you weren't sure of my motives, and where you weren't sure of what I was saying.  And that was just me using quotations... imagine if I had posted lengthy responses?  To me, this is spam and you should cut an argument a break and attempt to fill in the gaps of its intentions and spirit rather than being a slave to structure to the detriment of communication. "

" Again its not nitpicking to me. Thats your projection. "

Hulk really is the Strongest There Is! :P
 
I mean, he's basically Marvel's answer to Superman. Although both completely different characters and type comics.

"Is Hulk the strongest? It's a possibility, I guess, but I was so offended by World War Hulk on the basis that him being able to plow through almost everyone in the MU is just not realistic at all, whatsoever.   Brute force like his means next to nothing to me. Kitty Pryde could've simply flown a plane through his head, phased it, phase out of the plane, and unphased and he'd be dead and I'm sure there are hundreds of possibilities similar to that one.   So he's the strongest? So what. He still has no control over his powers, he's not that bright when he's gone feral, and he makes his problems everyone else's. Forget all these comparisons, Hulk is just downright annoying. "

" @SC said:

" Again its not nitpicking to me. Thats your projection. "

Actually, it was yours since you expressed his intent several posts past- the burden and absence of proof.  Your long winded emphasis on "lack of ability" and rote repetition of said wind as if it were gem-like, resulted only in the consternation and confusion of the person you replied to- much like your inability to ferret out the meaning of my illustrative mimicry.  Such effort spent on a technical debating point not relevant to the characters themselves (as proven by illustrations using muffins and years not even surpassing two decades) is- pretty clearly- a non-point that none are seriously debating or capable of sustaining.  In other words, endless repeating 2+2=4 in variation is not impressive or relevant even if the other party said 2+2=5.  The weight of persuasion has nothing to do with that and repeatedly covering negation does nothing to further the argument, just confusion- whereas "spotting" the other party their intentions actually allows discussion to go forward. 
 
The tremendous irony is, of course, that the very same argument that so drove your repetitive protest- that the absence of a feat must equal inability- is exactly the same argument applied to yours- that the absence of a limit feat must equal limitlessness... to which you will quickly retreat to the realm of "mere non-proven belief" without extending the same courtesy to the other party, holding that they must be asserting fact whereas you are merely stating belief. "

Hulk is probably the Strongest in the Marvel Universe. No doubt about it. I have seen the Hulk do some things where all you can say is HOW IN THE WORLD!? Him being stronger then Superman. Hmmmm I think it would be a double knock out just cause there is regular Superman and there is serious Superman. Serious Superman can go toe to toe with people like Darkseid.

I agree for the most part.  It's hard to rate some of the heroes with cosmic powers against the Hulk, but yeah, I'd argue that he has to be the single strongest character in the Marvel universe at the moment.  But that's really the great thing about comics - stuff like this can change at the drop of a hat, and debates like this will probably live on for decades.

" @spidey 15 said:

" @SC: In order to know if someone is capable of something, we are using their feats. This is what i'm trying to say. If Hulk has not the said feats to prove that he can't, then the character who has the superior feats, is obviously stronger until the other prove otherwise. Hulk has not prove that he is stronger than superman and superman has the superiority in feats. We can not say that Hulk can do the same or better, because he has never shown that he can. Your examples of muffins does not help here because of feats, he can do it.  My smiley is my mark....lol I always post it. =] "

 
In order to know if someone is capable of something, you use their feats. Knowing what someone is capable of, is again, vastly different, to proving what someone is capable of. There isn't something that just applies to Hulk, its logic. You can use preexisting evidence to help determine the likelihood of something being likely or likely, but thats something different to what you were doing granted by your express wording.   The burden of proof is not on someone arguing for Hulk in this instance, unless, a person was arguing that Hulk, can, undoubtedly, lift such a weight, he may have never before. Then, the burden of proof would be on them to indeed prove this. Likewise, you are claiming Hulk can't lift something, what is your proof? Proof as in not your opinion or burden of proof argument. Your statement needs your proof especially if you are saying its proven. If you saying that he hasn't so far, then thats not actually proof. Proof would be showing me an example, where Hulk was unable to say lift an inferior rate and we knew he lacked the capacity to grow angrier or so on, and thus increase in strength.   Hulk doesn't need to be proven superior to Superman because him not having proof of that, is not proof he isn't either.   We can say that Hulk may do better, since we don't know. Hulk has no physical limit to his strength. Superman may not either. Hulk's strength may fluctuate faster. There are more questions here than answers.   My example works perfectly here, according to your logic, since Superman has never lifted a muffin i have made, there that is proof that he can not. My muffin example points out the rather flaw in your logic regarding what is evidence or proof.   Oh okay, cool. Its always nice to know smiley people.  "

"Also, what would Silver Surfer be without the Power Cosmic? "
 
" To me, one hundred and fifty billion tons is quite a bit. I'd like to see other characters lift that without any sort of cosmic powers to assist them."  
 
Um, I suppose GAMMA RADIATION isn't a factor in the HULK's incredible might???
 
Is this your BEST argument as to why HULK is stronger than Silver Surfer???
 
WEAK! 

" The tremendous irony... exactly the same argument applied to yours- that the absence of a limit feat must equal limitlessness... to which you will quickly retreat to the realm of "mere non-proven belief" without extending the same courtesy to the other party, holding that they must be asserting fact whereas you are merely stating belief. "

" It was absence of proof that confirmsHulk has a limit. . . . What we do know and have evidence for, is explanation of Hulk's physical strength being described as being limitless. Likewise evidence for his ability to increase his strength. There is good evidence, not proof that Hulk could lift a weight as one he believes there is proof he can't. (in which case I ask for said proof)  I didn't extend courtesy no."

" BattleMage said that Hulk can do the same, but he has never been in that situation. And i said that he was speculating, because Hulk has never shown that ability, so how does he know that Hulk can do it? My point was not that Hulk can not do it because he has shown the inability to do it. My point was that since Hulk has never shown that ability,we Don't know if he can so there is no point on debating this because he has not shown the ability. And until he show it, according to on panel proof, superman is stronger. It's that simple."

 Here are Greg Pak's stated views on the Hulk's strength (in WW Hulk):

Visemoon: ... toward the end Hulk became the World Breaker and reached a whole other level in terms of strength and power. At that time who would have had the power and strength to stop Hulk if he continued his onslaught? Thanos, Mangog or maybe Galactus himself? Or was Hulk at a point that no one could have stop him but himself?

GP: Hulk was stronger than any mortal -- and most immortals -- who ever walked the Earth. But even I wouldn’t go so far as to say he could take down a cosmic figure like Galactus -- although he’d probably give the ol’ planet eater a pretty fierce case of indigestion.

Mohammad Zaki: The first question I have for you is that the Hulk can lift 100 tons at his normal level, without being hyped up, now Hercules was seen lifting the Statue of Liberty, dragging the S.H.I.E.L.D. helicarrier, and island of Manhattan, and lifting Godzilla, so shouldn't Hercules be a lot stronger than Hulk? I understand Hulk gets stronger as he gets madder, but it should be fair to show that Hercules is already stronger than Hulk and Hulk needs to really reach his limits of anger to challenge Hercules for a good fight, no?

GP: That’s a good point. When the Hulk’s happy and calm, there are a handful of heroes who just might be strong enough to beat him. But the trick is that once a fight actually starts, the Hulk gets mad. And the madder he gets, the stronger he gets. And then it’s all over. 
 
Here, we see all the interpretations in play... the Subjective in that GP ascribes to Hulk absolutes and relies on the catch phrase mechanism.  The objective by acknowledging Galactus (and "[some] immortals") is actually stronger... but quickly tempered by the Technical by redefining it to those who have walked the Earth.  And again, the Mechanical in the catch phrase leading to a citation of infinite Potential in absolute Subjective terms ("It's all over") ignoring lateral thinking and tactics (Technical).  The point is his strength is, for the most part, a truism rather than reason.  It is nearly impossible to discuss Hulk's limits without making reference to if not outright stating his catch phrases at some point as totems of "proof".  When we nail it down to specific tasks of strength instead, others may be better suited to achieve those tasks than Hulk on a routine basis.

Hulk is totally the Strongest Marvel character that Lives!

I like how in every other Hulk thread Hulk is called overrated and not that strong, but once a cool cat like G-Man makes a Hulk thread recognizing his powers, everyone seems to fall in love and agree.

" @SC said:

" @spidey 15 said:

" @SC: In order to know if someone is capable of something, we are using their feats. This is what i'm trying to say. If Hulk has not the said feats to prove that he can't, then the character who has the superior feats, is obviously stronger until the other prove otherwise. Hulk has not prove that he is stronger than superman and superman has the superiority in feats. We can not say that Hulk can do the same or better, because he has never shown that he can. Your examples of muffins does not help here because of feats, he can do it.  My smiley is my mark....lol I always post it. =] "

 
In order to know if someone is capable of something, you use their feats. Knowing what someone is capable of, is again, vastly different, to proving what someone is capable of. There isn't something that just applies to Hulk, its logic. You can use preexisting evidence to help determine the likelihood of something being likely or likely, but thats something different to what you were doing granted by your express wording.   The burden of proof is not on someone arguing for Hulk in this instance, unless, a person was arguing that Hulk, can, undoubtedly, lift such a weight, he may have never before. Then, the burden of proof would be on them to indeed prove this. Likewise, you are claiming Hulk can't lift something, what is your proof? Proof as in not your opinion or burden of proof argument. Your statement needs your proof especially if you are saying its proven. If you saying that he hasn't so far, then thats not actually proof. Proof would be showing me an example, where Hulk was unable to say lift an inferior rate and we knew he lacked the capacity to grow angrier or so on, and thus increase in strength.   Hulk doesn't need to be proven superior to Superman because him not having proof of that, is not proof he isn't either.   We can say that Hulk may do better, since we don't know. Hulk has no physical limit to his strength. Superman may not either. Hulk's strength may fluctuate faster. There are more questions here than answers.   My example works perfectly here, according to your logic, since Superman has never lifted a muffin i have made, there that is proof that he can not. My muffin example points out the rather flaw in your logic regarding what is evidence or proof.   Oh okay, cool. Its always nice to know smiley people.  "

You use for feats for more things. You show feats to compare someone's level of a certain ability with someone else. According to feats, spider-man is more agile than Daredevil. According to feats, Daredevil is more skilled than Moon Knight. And according to feats, superman is stronger than Hulk. BattleMage said that Hulk can do the same, but he has never been in that situation. And i said that he was speculating, because Hulk has never shown that ability, so how does he know that Hulk can do it? My point was not that Hulk can not do it because he has shown the inability to do it. My point was that since Hulk has never shown that ability,we Don't know if he can so there is no point on debating this because he has not shown the ability. And until he show it, according to on panel proof, superman is stronger. It's that simple.  Glad that you like smiley people. =] "

" @SC: Sorry, but i think you didn't get my point, 
 
According to feats, superman has pulled 1/3 of the planet. So, has any of Hulk's feats come close to this one or are any of your feats superior to that? No. 
So, in order to determine who is stronger from these characters, we should check their feat. So for now, Supes has better feats, so it's better to assume that he is stronger because ON panel proof shows this to us. 
Someone can say that Hulk can do these kind of things or superior, but what is his proof? My proof that Superman might be stronger, is that he manage to accomplish a feat like pulling something that had the weight of the 1/3 of the planet. I at least have an on panel proof. But what is the proof of the guy that says that he can do if he is put in a similar situation? I understand your  point and it makes sense, but mine was a bit different.  Yeah, it was a nice discussion. Have a nice day too! =] "

" @Mainline said:

" The tremendous irony... exactly the same argument applied to yours- that the absence of a limit feat must equal limitlessness... to which you will quickly retreat to the realm of "mere non-proven belief" without extending the same courtesy to the other party, holding that they must be asserting fact whereas you are merely stating belief. "

@SC said:

" It was absence of proof that confirmsHulk has a limit. . . . What we do know and have evidence for, is explanation of Hulk's physical strength being described as being limitless. Likewise evidence for his ability to increase his strength. There is good evidence, not proof that Hulk could lift a weight as one he believes there is proof he can't. (in which case I ask for said proof)  I didn't extend courtesy no."

@spidey 15 said:

" BattleMage said that Hulk can do the same, but he has never been in that situation. And i said that he was speculating, because Hulk has never shown that ability, so how does he know that Hulk can do it? My point was not that Hulk can not do it because he has shown the inability to do it. My point was that since Hulk has never shown that ability,we Don't know if he can so there is no point on debating this because he has not shown the ability. And until he show it, according to on panel proof, superman is stronger. It's that simple."

The absence of a limit feat (despite there actually being quite a few- but let's not get historical story facts get in the way for now) does not constitute limitlessness; hearsay does not constitute "good evidence" if it's not proof for the purposes raised by the other party- it just represent airy unsubstantiated belief of no relevance- and the capstone... spidey15's intentions made as clear as they were transparent from the beginning despite the unnecessary nitpicky detour on your part. - If you're going to spout airy beliefs without proof then others can too; if you're going to demand proof then your own assertions are going to have to meet those standards; and if you took 2 seconds to apply common-sense caveats to the original response clarity could have been achieved. "

" @Vitality: Hulk did beat Hercules, Iron Man, Namor and Wonder Man at the same time in 1986. 

"

there is one who is stronger-Hulkpool.

Of course...Hulk is strongest.

 Hulk ended up fighting the X-Men, the new X-Men, X-Factor and even Juggernaut.      

 While we're on the topic of World War Hulk, what about the events in issue #2. Hulk utterly defeated Iron Man,      

 where Hulk fought against the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Daredevil and even Thor.    

 When I mentioned Hulk being the strongest there is in the Comic Vine office, Norm was quick to point out that Silver Surfer could be stronger. They were both in the gladiator arena on Sakaar.     

 Other impressive battles include withstandingBlack Bolt's full sonic powers in World War Hulk #1     

One of the earliest and most impressive displays of Hulk's strength I witnessed was in 1984's Secret Wars #4. In a battle of good vs. evil, the heroes ended up with a mountain thrown on top of them. According to the cover, it weighed one hundred and fifty billion tons. Guess who was underneath holding it up in order to save the heroes?      

 While it may not count, there was also the DC Comics Vs. Marvel where Hulk went toe to toe with Superman.     

" @Ferro Vida:  What I took from the mountain feat was that the Hulk was only supporting it's weight as if fell on top of them. At the same time, he admitted that he could only hold it for a few seconds. It isn't as if he lifted it off the ground. Not saying you're wrong, I just wanted to add to what you were saying. "

" Well, like others who are "the best at what they do" (Iron Fist being the best at martial arts but we also have Stick and Elektra, Shang Chi, The Cat and a gazillion others who claim to be Marvel's best martial artist, Punisher being the best shooter but that being contested by Domino, Solo and a few others, etc.) the fact that Hulk is stronger than Herc, Sentry or others is hardly debatable because of an uncomfortable habit that comics inevitably produce: Inconsistency.  Yeah, at times Hulk IS the strongest there is (without a discussion) but depending on the writer or storyline people like Thor, Herc, Sentry and at times even Wonderman (who lets face it is not really weak himself) have beaten him and Namor was stated to be stronger than Hulk when in the water, too. Juggernaut stated in Worl War Hulk X-Men "I beat you before, Hulk" saying he was stronger than Hulk before and Hulk was only able to let Juggy run past him, not beat him. Of course that was a battle tactic but it was absolutely NO feat of strength to avoid a battle he was uncertain if he could win.   There is this fact that he supported the mountain of several billion tons but Beta Ray Bill and Thor had an even more impressive feat of supporting a rock (I think it was Asgard but I'm not sure right now) during Secret Invasion or Godslayer (not sure again but I'm too lazy to dig through my collection right now) and noe of them was lucky enough to be able to support it with his back like Hulk does in this picture. If you ask me: Hulk is the strongest there is (like everybody else is) as long as the story demands it. "

I'm the stronguest one there is! 
 
After a chilli cheese and bean burrito no one can stop me!

lol at the article saying Hulk fought Juggernaut. Yeah, for a short time, until he realized he still couldn't outpower and move Juggernaut. It's not like he beat Juggernaut physically. Juggernaut can only be stopped by telepaths getting into his head or the most powerful magic, neither of which Hulk possesses. Juggernaut is the strongest because he can summon the unlimited power of Cytorrak. He's also punched through dimensions before. Hulk has never done that.

" He is the physically strongest marvel character sure.  He is not the most powerful Marvel character. "

Hulk is the strongest there is, the more he gets angry the more he gets stronger and there is no limit, until he killed his opponent or wreck the entire planet... And the more you try to defend yourself against Th Hulk the stronger he gets, his even stronger Then Thor and the other Godlike cow face thing... it is not an insult I don't know his name and this is how I describe him, in an episode called planet Hulk where he was captures as a gladiator, and his just stronger then God... his even indestructibly, because he heals, his fighting skills are not too good, but he Is the Strongest and he can heal better then wolverine.

" @SC: I think you miss the point too. If we go by the logic of " he has not do it but it does not mean he can't " then it's like saying that spider-man can run faster than the light but he has not done it yet, Daredevil can jump higher than anyone but he has not done it yet, iron man can destroy 3 planets at the same time but he has not done it yet and stuff like that. That's why we use feats. We try to see who is stronger, faster, more agile etc... Superman for now, according to ON PANEL proof he is stronger than Hulk. If we assume that Hulk can do the same without having any showing close to it, then it's only speculation. =] "