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Off My Mind: How Far Should Green Arrow Go For Justice?

What happens when a hero kills?


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Have you read Justice League: Cry For Justice #7 yet? As you may know, the villain Prometheus caused a bit of havoc. Roy Harper lost his arm and besides the death of a bunch of people in Star City, there was also the death of a character that we all know. By now, it's most likely not a secret that Green Arrow served his own brand of justice at the end. The question is, how far should the Justice League go in delivering 'justice'?
 
This may fall in that area of characters undergoing radical changes in who they are. Villains may do vile things, but where should the line be drawn in bringing them to justice? You take a character like the Punisher, I don't know if many would call him a hero but he never set out to be one. A character like Green Arrow has been a hero. What can we call him now? What will the rest of the Justice League think when they discover what he's done? If a former hero crosses the line of killing, is it possible to go back? Dead is dead (well, maybe not in comics but you know what I mean). 
 
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Comics have gotten darker over the years. The 'gosh darn' days of crime fighting are long gone. The main focus of Cry For Justice was supposed to be about the Justice League actually getting justice for those that were harmed. Should the Justice League take a harder route? If villains are becoming deadlier, should the team change their tactics to deal with them? What would then be the difference between "justice" and "vengeance"?
 
What are your thoughts on the matter? Was Ollie justified in taking matters into his own hands? Should Ollie be held accountable for what he did? Does having the power and responsibility that they do justify them being above the law? Will Green Arrow ever be the hero he used to be or has he gone down a path he can't return from?

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Knightsofdarkness2

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@cellywyn said:

Ollie is absolutely justified in what he did. Prometheus attacked his family. He attacked Roy, whose practically Ollie's son, and he killed his granddaughter. Ollie is human and he's entitled to go through the motions. Prometheus deserved to die.

This

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moonsault86

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Edited By moonsault86
@Jake Fury: 
 \@LB70145:
Batman's whole premise is about not taking a life because he grew up orphan due to the traumatic murder of both of his parents at a young age. It was then when he made a firm stand never to take a life. I don't recall Oliver ever making the same stand, although I have only read very little of GA.
 
I recall the animated movie Under the Red Hood, on the climax and the confrontation where Jason/Hood  accuses Batman of not avenging him and not killing the Joker and goes on to number the Joker's past crimes. I always felt Jason had a good solid argument here. Batman should have stopped the Joker for all the stuff that he has done because he has never stopped or showed any remorse and to him Arkham is a vacation house.
 
God knows who the Joker is going to kill next, Hell, he could probably nuke gotham  and killed every member of Bat's family in the process and Batman will still just throw him back to Arkham. 
 
Prometheus was not innocent, he was a mass murderer who could take down Shiva in 3 seconds flat.
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CaptainCockblock

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Edited By CaptainCockblock

I hated Cry for Justice. The constant repetition of the word "justice" without any definition as to what they mean, the unexplained change in character that allowed them to simply torture people (with explanation, it could've been interesting) and the unceremonious murder of Lian Harper just pushed me over the edge. As for Green Arrow killing Prometheus, it didn't feel right. It just felt like the same disappointment as watching a family member who's recovering from alcoholism fall off the wagon.

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ChristopherWilliams

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Green Arrow did what he had to do and that was take out the madman that was causing havoc.
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arrowfan237

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Edited By arrowfan237
@NightFang:
Me. I agree that comics have gotten darker over he years but in Adventure Comics #259 he said "I NEVER HAVE and NEVER WILL, draw an arrowto kill anybody.". This was almost the code of his crimefighting career Once you break that code everything comes tumbling apart. While other heroes have killed it really shook me when he killed Prometheus because here I saw my favorite hero killing someone in cold blood. As much as I idolize Green Arrow I have to agree with the judge's verdict. He needed to be punished. But it also needed to be done to avenge Red Arrow. I think Red Arrow will have to shoot just like Green Arrow did in the Dark Night Returns.CURSE YOU BLACK CANARY FOR BREAKING THAT POOR MAN'S HEART.
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Lustwish

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Edited By Lustwish

ok did I not start a thread similar to this a couple of weeks ago? or was I missing a long readout with pictures?

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Curleyman182155

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Edited By Curleyman182155

I think Green Arrow did a good thing, I always love seeing this character going to the edge of chaos and starting to go renegade. Its the way it should be. Especially after what happened to Roy. 

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I Am Godzilla

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Edited By I Am Godzilla

I think its okay for a hero to kill every once in a while, as long as its necessary.

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drone.devil

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Edited By drone.devil

didn't read it, but uh..... 
 
 yeah he should have killed him. 
 
It's great to see "heroes" going all old testament on some mother f******. 
 
And Batman kinda WAS a killer in the olden days......that all changed and got phased out though. 
 
But Bruce is really quite the enabler.  I don't believe that he doesn't kill out of some sense of morality.  I don't care how the writers spin it.  He ALLOWS these maniacs to live and to continue to spread chaos.  It would be for the greater good if he just said "f*** it" and killed someone like Zsasz for instance.  That would be a REAL sacrifice, to put his morals aside for the sake of society's well being.  Instead he'd rather fulfill his own violent needs whilst still serving on the side of "good".  Without his rogues gallery he'd probably end up like Dr. Doom or something....presiding over his kingdom of Gotham City, a land where crime is snuffed out in an instant.....so I guess maybe he actually IS thinking of the greater good....hmmph.
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warcorpse

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Edited By warcorpse

he had every right to seek vengeance

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warcorpse

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Edited By warcorpse

he had every right to seek vengeance

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wolverine9981

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Edited By wolverine9981

O.k.  Keep it real,if someone murdered your grandchild and crippled your son what would you do? For those who've had the luxury of never having had some scum bag destroy your family,BELIEVE ME revenge can posses you.  If GA continues down this road I could see him hooking up with cheshire(lians mom) and start going down a very dark road unless the love of his friends an fam can redeem him.

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Bubbly Bunny

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Edited By Bubbly Bunny

What really pisses me off is that heroes shouldn't kill. I know comics have gotten darker over the ages but this is utter bullshit. We have Flash snapping the Reverse Flash's neck and then going oh but it was to save Iris. He is the fucking fastest man alive and that's all he can think of then we have Green Arrow some how defying everything and killing Prometheus who is wearing a god damn helmet! I mean i understand if in the harshest of situations they have to kill but really. Heroes shouldn't kill its not what they do. I mean Wonder Woman is the last person i expected to end up being a killer. Look maybe it makes a good plot sometimes but this is just ridiculous. Most heroes are just as bad as the villains. And then they come up with some lame ass excuse. Gay for Justice was terrible series. And was Lian dying really necessary. The worst part is it wasn't even Roy who got revenge it was Ollie. Really?! Really?!

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Secret Identity

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Edited By Secret Identity

First, i'd like to say that some of these comments are hilarious! I won't say which ones because that would be unfair on those saying them and i don't wish to offend anyone.  
 
Now, GA has indeed killed before and indeed he was a part of a GROUP of people who changed someones personality. It wasn't just down to him that time we must all remember. GA is an antihero which is fair enough, he even says as much when he says that deep down he's not a hero, he's a hunter. Also, he's a knob and he knows it. He's got a self hatred that is part of his character, that disdain for himself means he does things that he knows other heroes wouldn't because he doesn't think of the consequences to himself. He's driven by emotion. "Making the hard choices" and all that.
 
And that is possibly the biggest thing about him as a character. If he's afraid he runs (why he ran from his responsibilities when Connor was born), if he's depressed(or lonely or whatever) he sleeps around, he's always been a violent character. Beating on common thugs to get info etc etc. Now he's been emotionally destroyed (again) and he's bloody well pissed off about it so he goes out and kills the guy responsible for it. He knows he's going to get in trouble but he also knows he's saved countless others from becoming his prey. Right and wrong doesn't even come into it in his head. This was a NEED as far as he can see. It may well be that on reflection at a later date he regrets it (as he does about leaving Roy and trotting off around the world with Hal and for sleeping around whilst seeing Dinah and for a whole host of other things). This brings us to another very important aspect of GA, pride. His pride makes it very hard for him to admit to his wrongdoings or his regrets, even if his inner monologue tells us (the joyous comic reader) otherwise. 
  
So, in short. GA killed, he lied, he cheated, he abandoned those around him (although he redeemed himself on most counts) but he is still a hero to those he has saved from rape, thievery, abuse, violence and danger. Some will argue that that makes him more human, others will argue it makes him a "Douche" (fncking hate that word. Don't use it it not cool.) or a bastard. As far as i'm concerned that's the point. He walks that line. It makes him interesting and it's the reason i find him such a good character to read. Sometimes he's an absolute knob, other times he's a gent and a hero.  
  
My last point is just to say that comparing GA to Bats is a bad idea. Because those who remember the old GA will know he was basically just Batman light. Or Batman with arrows. (Arrowcave, arrow mobile, trick arrows etc). He has since successfully been moved away from that as in some drastic ways. He's now very driven by emotions and the idea that he's a hero because he needed an outlet for his boredom and it made him feel useful. That sort of thing anyways. Batman couldn't be any more different. The point of him is he gave up being emotional to take on evil and save those around him from suffering as he had. Batman is a logical creature of restraint and knowledge. GA is a emotional creature of excess and righteousness. Their personalities are completely juxtaposed.

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lb70145

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Edited By lb70145
@GraveSp: He didn't kill him now did he. Darkseid is still going about in some kind of limbo between reality, time, and the multiverse.
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Edited By GraveSp

Batman tried to kill Darkseid so there's that.  
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The WeatherMan

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Edited By The WeatherMan

All I wanna say about Green Arrow is... I don't really approve it, but I understand.
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lb70145

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Edited By lb70145
@brc2000:@The WeatherMan: Cops and Soldiers are never forced to kill. The choice to kill was not given to them, that was circumstance if they chose to kill. Otherwise, no I don't consider every cop and soldier a hero. Call me unpatriotic but talk to a cop or soldier who has killed. They do not feel like heroes for taking the life of another even if that person did not deserve life. The doing of good is different from preventing evil. Those two concepts are not the same. Maybe you should read some Captain America, Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, or maybe you should actually read your comics. This message is repeated in every superhero comic in existence.

 Batman is an ordinary human too. But Batman NEVER EVER kills. The true power that people like Batman have is to be able to restrain themselves from killing. That restraint is what gives Batman power. All Green Arrow is to me now, is a communist with a bow. He no longer processes that power of  restraint. Therefore, I no longer have respect for that character.
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The WeatherMan

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Edited By The WeatherMan

Just finished reading it. I didn't really liked the story. The dialogue was poorly written, I couldn't feel the personalities of any of the heroes through their dialogue. I pretty much didn't care for Bill and Starman's part of the story and nothing was done to make you really care for them. The situation felt tacked on, like "people are dying, heroes to the rescue". I really wanted to like Prometheus as a villain but... he took out the League by standing in one spot, talking to his suit and firing off "special" bullets... Did not impress me at all. When Deathstroke took on the League in Identity Crisis, I believed the fight, I believed that Deathstroke could make it all happen, Prometheus came off as a joke. If he can predict and counter all of Justice League's moves, why didn't have a countermeasure for when someone invades his lair?  
 
The art looked really good, I enjoyed the way all of the characters were drawn. That was the only good thing about the story. 5/10.
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ahumancartoon

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Edited By ahumancartoon

I don't think what Ollie did was right....but prometheus never looked better.

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Edited By brc2000

  
@Mbecks14 said:

" @LB70145 said:

" Heroes who kill are not truly heroes. They are almost as bad as the villain they kill. Taking another life is unforgivable. Taking the life of one who has taken lives is not justified. "
i agree. i hate this path that Green Arrow is going down. "
 
 
Nothing wrong with that. It makes a hell lot more sense to kill someone who was almost impossible to contain, killed a child along with other heroes and took out an entire city that just put him in prison where he'd likely escape. When people kile John Mcclain kill people in movies, do people really care? Unlike people like Spider-man and Superman, Green Arrow is an ordinary human. People whine about DC heroes being boy scouts and them whine some more when they get more realistic. Also he's killed before. You've obviously never read any Green Arrow before.
 
I suppose cops and soldiers who are forced to kill aren't heroes either?
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Mbecks14

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Edited By Mbecks14
@LB70145 said:
" Heroes who kill are not truly heroes. They are almost as bad as the villain they kill. Taking another life is unforgivable. Taking the life of one who has taken lives is not justified. "
i agree. i hate this path that Green Arrow is going down.
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cadaver

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Edited By cadaver
@Final Arrow said:
" This should come as no surpise to any Green Arrow fan. Ollie has killed to protect his family before (BC, In Long Bow Hunter) and this time he was pushed to the edge. I wonder if they are taking GA back down the darker path they had him on in the  the early 90's when he moved fro star city the first time. I think given what has happend he took the right course of action, if not Roy would have done it anyway and Roy has to much to deal with right now. As for the JLA I don't know this may split them down the middle much like Idenity Crisis. Ollie has a lot of friends who will back him (Hal, BC) but how far will they go to protect him from the other leaugers!! "
GA is a killer, and the league should know this, but they turn their backs on things like this when it is convenient. The whole thing about Identity Crisis proves this. Lobotomizing villains was worse than just killing them, yet they chose not to confront it. I'm glad GA wacked Prometheus. I'm an old fan of GA and have been really bored with the current title, the writers suck. Maybe now it will get interesting again, and I can justify still buying it. Hope Roy recovers, sucks that they are two archers down in team arrow right now (Connor was messed up way back when). To my knowledge speedy still is HIV positive, and can't be living too long herself. The Arrow legacy is not  doing too well...
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crimsonspider89

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Edited By crimsonspider89

GA will either have to become an anti hero or earn the respect of his peers back with dutiful work and respect. How it always has been, make him into an antihero.

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lb70145

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Edited By lb70145

Heroes who kill are not truly heroes. They are almost as bad as the villain they kill. Taking another life is unforgivable. Taking the life of one who has taken lives is not justified.

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Edited By RoninKane

 One thing right off the bat is that GA has already tried to kill Pormetheus before,(Look it up in "HUSH RETURNS"). Prometheus was a millisecond away from a green arrow through his skull, but Hush pulled his head out of the way. You can say that GA killed him because of Roy and Lian but he has wanted to do it for some time, more form himself than for anyone else. Let' s put it out there, "Green Arrow is a DOUCHE!" He always has been. That fact is always sugar coated with phrases like "he is more human", "he is an everyman hero", "he is more real". NO! He resents the fact that he is not as smart as other heroes like batman, has no powers like superman, and has been a selfish, selfserving dick, espeically to those closest to him. I say let him kill and become the black sheep of the DC heroes, it would just add to that already huge chip on his shoulder. The funny thing is that Green Arrow could actually kill all of his rogues gallery and really no one would miss them, maybe Merlyn. 

 
 


 
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Cellywyn

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Edited By Cellywyn

Ollie is absolutely justified in what he did. Prometheus attacked his family. He attacked Roy, whose practically Ollie's son, and he killed his granddaughter. Ollie is human and he's entitled to go through the motions. Prometheus deserved to die. My only qualm is that Roy won't be the one to take down the man responsible for....what happened to Lian. So yeah.

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Stealthfart

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Edited By Stealthfart

I've seen a few people mention Roy and how he might take this, but what about Cheshire?  Lian was her daughter as well and you can't say she doesn't love her. 
 
Also, i think Green Arrow was justified in what he did, but this needs to have ramifications, like it did with Ultimate Hawkeye when he killed Black Widow.

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ninjasquirrel01

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Edited By ninjasquirrel01
@jlat89 said:
" Wonder Woman killed someone years ago and everyone got over it.  I really don't see the big deal with Green Arrow.  Just like the guy Wonder Woman killed there was really no other way.  The League will be pissed, but they'll get over it eventually, and then we'll find out it really wasn't Prometheus, and Green Arrow was coaxed somehow.  Even if he's not, they'll get over it "
Exactly.
Frankly, this changes nothing and I couldn't care less.
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geraldthesloth

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Edited By geraldthesloth
@Mbecks14 said:
" This is such a horrible defecation on the character of Green Arrow.  Wake me when its rebooted out of continuity "
So than you're expecting longbow hunters and the other grell stories where Ollie has the same attitude to be retconned as well? have a good long sleep than I suppose.
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deactivated-5c6600594117e

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If someone was responsible for the maiming of my son and death of my grand daughter putting an arrow thru their skull would be getting off easy in my book. Ollie was completely justified in his actions. I can't wait to see where this story goes.
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Secret Identity

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Edited By Secret Identity
@Art Penwright said:

"    As some of you already pointed out Green Arrow has had a violent past, the Longbow Hunter's being the best example. He's also been more aggressive than batman, I mean the guy doesn't use trick arrows anymore, when he shots someone he's hitting them with real fricking arrow. But, I think the most important part of all this is that Green Arrow is suppose to be the imperfect hero.         I kind of see him as the everyman batman; sure he's clever, skilled, and all that but, he's also more flawed and that makes him more relatable. The big reveal at the end of The Archer's Quest was that he knew about his son's birth and left him, he regrets it like nothing else, but he still did it. I think moments like that make him a more interesting character, the hero that doesn't always do the right thing. It puts him in contrast to Superman and Batman who are almost perfect, and have a very staunch sense of justice, Ollie's a bit more human he let's his emotions get the best of him. "

I agree entirely. I love Ollie because of this. He's not perfect and he has killed before when pushed too far. At that time he was low level and out of the spotlight. Now he's practically in charge of the JLA, that's as in the spotlight as you can be. I think it's actually quite refreshing to have a character that CAN be pushed to that line and cross it. Otherwise you know that the hero will always win out at the end of the day. The idea of this being a little more high level is where the new story is going to be more interesting. And this time it's not just some guy kidnapping and torturing his lover  SPOILER WARNING: Click here to reveal hidden content.
 What they do with this from here is going to be an interesting chapter in the character's life. So long as we don't just have him go all punisher on us i think it could be good. I'm looking forward to "the rise and fall" even though it could well take the character in a direction that i don't like. 
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Dracade102

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Edited By Dracade102

Well, With a Guy Who's Main weapon is a Arrow, I'd Think It would be kinda Hard to avoid killing...
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Mbecks14

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Edited By Mbecks14

This is such a horrible defecation on the character of Green Arrow.
 
Wake me when its rebooted out of continuity

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bl00dm0nk3y

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Edited By bl00dm0nk3y

didn't hawkeye go through the exact same thing? ended up killing wanda after finding out she did some screwed up stuff in the marvel universe that incorporated everyone in the avengers

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Edited By Art Penwright

   As some of you already pointed out Green Arrow has had a violent past, the Longbow Hunter's being the best example. He's also been more aggressive than batman, I mean the guy doesn't use trick arrows anymore, when he shots someone he's hitting them with real fricking arrow. But, I think the most important part of all this is that Green Arrow is suppose to be the imperfect hero. 
        I kind of see him as the everyman batman; sure he's clever, skilled, and all that but, he's also more flawed and that makes him more relatable. The big reveal at the end of The Archer's Quest was that he knew about his son's birth and left him, he regrets it like nothing else, but he still did it. I think moments like that make him a more interesting character, the hero that doesn't always do the right thing. It puts him in contrast to Superman and Batman who are almost perfect, and have a very staunch sense of justice, Ollie's a bit more human he let's his emotions get the best of him.

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Edited By danhimself

after what Prometheous did to the Green Arrow family, Ollie is excused to do whatever he needs to do....I just feel bad for Roy...he hasn't woke up yet and doesn't know that he not only lost his arm but his daughter died to

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Adam Michaels

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Edited By Adam Michaels


I think it falls within the context. Green Arrow wasn't always mr. goody two-shoes. His son was mamed, his city was leveled, and his granddaughter crushed. It makes perfect sense for Ollie to do what he did. It would be harder to sell if it was Mon-El, for example, who seems to take the moral high ground that Superman stood for. But it's completely believable that someone like Arrow would go to such lengths. He's more complex than a simple black-and-white outlook on things.

 
My hope is that they continue with this and remain consistent. If this was a one-time thing, it's pretty useless. But if they follow up on it, or if Green Arrow takes a more lethal approach on things from now on, the killing of Prometheus served a greater purpose for the character. He can become an in betweener as he can be a hero and a sort of villain at the same time by having certain heroes not condone his behavior and choose to do something about it (I guess like Punisher, but with arrows).

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speedlgt

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Edited By speedlgt

but the problem is that heroes do kill they almost have to if you want to stop evil evil must be destroyed......
look at Secrect invasion i am sure that thor and iron man killed hundreds of skrulls and they are noble heroes does anyone care? Batman kill the ultimate evil darkseed? does anyone care? and look at guys like green arrow and wolverine lets be real despite how you feel about their skills fighting these guys should only result in death..........i mean what else is an arrow gonna do other than kill you? what else is 3 blades on a fist gonna do other than kill you? heroes who wield weapon of death are gonna cause death......and if they dont then WTF?

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thatlad

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Edited By thatlad

They always say in comics to the hero "once you kill you can never go back" but isn't that a double standard for all the villains that reform? How come they get a second chance after all th good they've done? I've always wondered how writers never realised how stupid that sounds.  
 
 As for Ollie killing...well I hope this leads to a permanent character change. I don't want him just killing once villain saying his sorry sulking for a few months then everything being back the way it was. Maybe make it so Ollie become the wolverine/punisher of DC, the one willing to go that bit further but keeping in line with his character show how it absolutely destroys his mental well being. Would make for an interesting run. 
 
Thing is though, comics are meant to inspire. Punisher killing people makes sense because there's nothing inspiring about a big dude all in black with big guns. But Ollie's they type of character designed as a symbol, same as superman.  
I'm a bit split on the issue, I don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. I just hope there's some commitment and it's not just done for shock value and forgotten in a few months. 
 
 PS do you think they've followed Smallville GL seeing as he killed Lex a few seasons back??

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Son_of_Magnus

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Edited By Son_of_Magnus
@iLLituracy said:
" @Son_of_Magnus said:
" Green Arrow got lucky "
Green Arrow never gets lucky...  Unless it's with your momma'. "
.D=<
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iLLituracy

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Edited By iLLituracy
@Son_of_Magnus said:
" Green Arrow got lucky "
Green Arrow never gets lucky...
 
Unless it's with your momma'.
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Son_of_Magnus

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Edited By Son_of_Magnus

Green Arrow got lucky

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iLLituracy

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JUSTICE!
 
When he put that arrow in Prometheus's face, I literally fistpumped.

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Darkchild

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Edited By Darkchild

I loved how radical Arrow has gone. He is definately that true blue father, you hurt his kids he will make you pay. And he did, and I find it alright an fine what he did. That bastard hurt his kid and grandkid, so he had to pay. Its what I would have done.

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simsey

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Edited By simsey

yeah kill em all take the summer off kick back  why not
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I can't wait to see the fall out when the Justice league find out.
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I really don't have a problem if GA kills, if he has too. I mean he shoot arrows for christ sake lol.
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@Kurrent said:
"  Hell yeah it was justified  "
I completely agree, I wish I could be tolerant like Batman or Superman but I know if I held a dead family member and I had the power to kill the murderer I damn sure would soak my hands in blood.I like to think that I am above petty revenge and hope that the criminal could be reformed and maybe even redeem their self but when such intense motions are involved I know that I would feel exactly like Ollie.It's not even just one child Prometheus killed hundreds of thousands of people that day, how many children and women and fathers?
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