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Off My Mind: Female Characters Made From Male Characters

Why do we have so many male/female versions of the same characters?

I would imagine it is a difficult thing to create a new character in comic books. Especially since pretty much every idea has already been used. If you're looking to make a new superhero, what can a publisher do? How about make a female version of an existing character? 
 
This was a topic that came up between me and Nightwatcher. Why do we have so many male and female versions of the same character? It could be to attract more female readers to comics. It could be that guys like seeing women in tight clothing in their comics. Maybe it's to add a "softer touch" to all the superhero action. Or maybe it's just to cash in on a successful idea. 
  

   
What are your thoughts on male and female versions of the same character? Are there any that you like more than the original? Do you think the 'new' character should have the same traits and goals as the original or are they better off doing their own thing?

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Lvenger

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Edited By Lvenger

I think if you are going to create an opposite gender version of the same character they shouldn't be personality wise identical. For example, Hulk is a more violent, smashing neutral hero whilst She Hulk has followed the superhero path, Superman is the champion of Earth and the world's greatest superhero but Supergirl lately has been getting a lot of stick from Cat Grant. You see the point I'm making. If you are going to do a gender opposite version of a character, at least have the decency to make them their own person rather than a carbon copy of the original. And Lady G-Man or should I say G-Woman? HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA lol that is brilliant. I want to see that in the future.

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roadbuster

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Edited By roadbuster
@Rheged said:
" There's absolutely no incentive for a writer to create new characters, when he will never make a dime off the merchandising, future movies, other associated rights to said characters.  If a writer has a GREAT idea for a new character, or an original plot, he's probably going to save it for a creator owned project, where he is beneficiary of his talents.  So if you want blame someone, blame Marvel and DC, who need to come up with some sort of profit sharing plan with the creators. "
A couple comments... 
1. There are plenty of incentives, even creatively... if you look at X-23, it allowed Kyle and Yost to tell the stories they wanted to tell while keeping their bosses happy and clearly they've felt creatively satisfied with X-23 because they continue to treat her like their baby in writing her.  As a creator, making a mark on a decades old institution is an accomplishment many would like to have.  Do it well and you'll reap other benefits as well...  

2. A female character is still a new legally protectable character in the eyes of the law (which is the only relevant eyes since we're talking about rights and ownership) so it's not like making a female version means they're giving the publisher less or saving anything for themselves... they could go off and do their own female version of the character without the behest of the publisher... they're just far less likely to succeed at doing it.  

3. Mainstream incentives are just fine.  Creatively, you get to play with famous toys.  Economically, you get your name out there, get a bigger pay check, and get a stable pay check (and often royalties) all without having to deal with the business side of things.  Is it any wonder than small independent directors leap at the chance to work on big well known franchises?  If you make your mark you not only reap the short term economic benefits but your back catalog of work gets appreciated, your future works are anticipated, you're given more creative freedom, more are willing to take risks on you, and in essence your stock raises.  That is the deal- fame, stability, and management for production.  People talk about "Dan Slott's She-Hulk" or "Greg Rucka's Wonder Woman" because your efforts get noticed.  In terms of risk / stability... most indies don't make it past issue 3... the ones that do are almost always by those who made the deal with the mainstream at one point which got their name out there, additionally there's upwards mobility in terms of promotions or exclusivity contracts and the like to make a creator's life more predictable.  Finally, many creators just want to create.  Being independent is often more about savvy business sense, negotiation, promotion, marketing, etc. than just working on one's craft.  Often the creator either lacks said talents or in the hiring of one to manage said things cedes nearly as much to their manager as they would to any mainstream publisher.  The mainstream allows you to just do what you like to do- art or writing- in the knowledge that your deal is market driven in terms of fairness... you can ask around and know you're not getting taken for a ride... compared to trying to use your limited business savvy to negotiate with a manager who you're hiring to shore up said lack of business savvy.
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Fantasgasmic

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Edited By Fantasgasmic

@Gman I'd say its less bad when done in a different universe, like Captain America and his female counterpart American Dream from MC-2. But I'd say aside from "the Smurfette Principal" at work here there's just the problem of too many REPETATIVE superheroes.  My in no way comprehensive list is below.
 
Ignoring your sidekicks(kids) based on primary characters(adults) like Red Devil and Kid Devil, Martain Manhunter and Ms Martian, or Zachary Zatara and Zatanna, You've got Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) and Spider-Woman/Arachne (Julia Carpenter), Captain America and USAgent, I've lost count of all the Ant Man/Giant Man/Wasp/Yellowjacket that have run around Marvel's earth-616. You've got 2 Flashes who dress almost identically and Jay Garrick, and THEY each have a palette swapped Reverse Flash (the darker Rival in Garrick's case), there are 3 Green Lanterns just from Earth AND Allan Scott, Captain Marvel (DC) has Captain Marvel Jr and Black Adam, Human Torch (Johnny Storm) and Human Torch (Jim Hammond) and Toro, Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze) and Ghost Rider (Dan Ketch), Elongated Man is just a lamer (though perhaps more sane) version of Plastic Man and lest we all forget, we're going to have at least 2 Batmen. 
 
Then you have what I'd call your DERIVATIVE superheroes, yeah they're a little different but not enough (in my opinion) to make them interesting. Your various Ghost Riders had Vengeance,  Thor has/had Beta Ray Bill and Thunderstrike,   Hulk has Red Hulk, She Hulk has Red She Hulk, Superman has Mon El, Wolverine has X-23 and Daken,  there's Araña who is now Arachne, Captain Mar-Vell and his Power Bands were a lot like Quasar and his Nega Bands, a jillion people have wielded the Phoenix Force, Bling is just a combination of Emma Frost and Marrow, Domino and Longshot, Magneto has Polaris, and although he didn't start out as one Wild Child became a lame version of Sabertooth.

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Rheged

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Edited By Rheged
@AskaniSon295 said:
" The reason why is "marketability" a female version of a Male character is marketable to a fan interested in that character. Interesting enough not all version succeed such as Marvel's "Wolverina" a wolverine Parody or "WildThing". X-23 succeeds do to the fact she is not female carbon-copy of Wolverine.  The thing that fascinates me more is why there are not more male versions of female characters. "
Like who?  There aren't that many major female characters that aren't analogues of male characters.
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Om1kron

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Edited By Om1kron
@weapon154 said:

" @Om1kron: What kind of comics do you read? "

I mainly read manga scanlations now of Naruto and Katekyo Hitman Reborn since I am really into their anime's. My absolute favorites were anything Greg Capullo Did (Spawn, The Creech) Travis Charest (Xmen/wildcats, wildcats) Xmen, punisher, iron man, savage dragon, mainly a lot of image comics and wildstorm studios titles I enjoyed. Damn shame what happened with wildstorm.  I normally will follow an artist more than I will a book as I appreciate the artists ability more than I do the story.
 
It's niche things like this that piss me off (duplicating the same character and switching the gender.)
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Rheged

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Edited By Rheged

I don't think it's Lazy Writers or Lack of Originality, but Money.  When a writer creates an all new original character, that character belongs wholly to the publisher.  There's absolutely no incentive for a writer to create new characters, when he will never make a dime off the merchandising, future movies, other associated rights to said characters.  If a writer has a GREAT idea for a new character, or an original plot, he's probably going to save it for a creator owned project, where he is beneficiary of his talents.  So if you want blame someone, blame Marvel and DC, who need to come up with some sort of profit sharing plan with the creators.
 
I find many of the newer female versions of established male characters to be tedious, but the older established ones, like Supergirl and Namorita, have grown on me and become individuals in their own right.

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TSCTH

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Edited By TSCTH

I've read about the psychology of gender swap in manga/anime, where it's a way to safely live out homo-erotic tendencies, while not having to worry that the oneself might be a homosexual. I don't know if the same applies to american/european comics, since manga/anime focuses on a more liberated (and explicit) form of sexuality, but i would say it's impossible.

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weapon154

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Edited By weapon154
@Om1kron: What kind of comics do you read?
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afierce

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Edited By afierce

Us gals need heroes too! I'm totally fine with it as long as the characters are fleshed out nicely and it makes sense. For example, all the members of the Bat-family make sense to me. They aren't knock-offs of one another with the same powers, they are all just united under the symbol of the Bat. I think the Super-family makes sense as well.

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roadbuster

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Edited By roadbuster

In broad strokes it's largely economic, as opposed to purely creative, reasons however the way it works out isn't as A-to-B as one might expect from economically motivated decisions... 
 
For example, pressure came from above to inject Wolverine into more of the teenaged storyline of his animated series, but in order to not compromise his character by making him unrealistically hang out with kids, X-23 was created... so a creative decision, but sourced from economics.  You can hear the creator's rationale in this video.  Why a version of Lady Deathstrike wasn't used.... 
 
With She-Hulk, Benny Hill did a sketch in the late 70s about, essentially, a woman hulking out and Marvel panicked given the relative success of their Hulk television show at the time.  She-Hulk was rushed out the door and created solely for securing the rights to the character and concept.  Spider-Woman was created for the same reason because Filmation was planning to release a new cartoon character called Web Woman. 
 
You have to realize that the biggest source of long term and meaningful intellectual protection for comic book characters is trademark which is enforcible only through use and exposure (such that consumer confusion as to source could arise)... in broad strokes this means that, in theory, there's nothing preventing a rival company from creating a female variation of your hero unless you monopolize the idea yourself first with an established character. 
 
This should be somewhat intuitive as it makes sense that people cannot own monopolies on character concepts... if you wanted to make a female version of James Bond or Indiana Jones as an archetype (heh, Angelina Jolie apparently having done both) no one who did not have an established version of that character out there to call you on it could stop you. 
 
This means that often the female analogs are not created to profit in and of themselves but to prevent someone else from profiting off their creations.

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AskaniSon295

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Edited By AskaniSon295

The reason why is "marketability" a female version of a Male character is marketable to a fan interested in that character. Interesting enough not all version succeed such as Marvel's "Wolverina" a wolverine Parody or "WildThing". X-23 succeeds do to the fact she is not female carbon-copy of Wolverine.  The thing that fascinates me more is why there are not more male versions of female characters.

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Video_Martian

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Edited By Video_Martian

Three words: Lazy. Ass. Writers.

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Om1kron

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Edited By Om1kron
@weapon154 said:
" Well, G-man forgot joker's daughter but the real question is where are all the girl heroes to guys? "
Simple... Smallville's superman is the perfect Male superhero based off of one that originally had a vagina. 
 
In all seriousness my feeling is because the studios lack originality and the balls to try something new and run with it. That's what was so great about image comics and smaller publishers. Instead of being a nintendo comic book publisher and relying on your mario, zelda, and metroids, they were willing to provide something fresh. No lets not make any new villains for spiderman . Lets just bring carnage back, oh hey doomsday he killed superman, we made 4 other supermans then decided that wasn't going to work and did a restart.  Oh did we mention doomsday is back, but now is 100times more likely to get his ass kicked by superman this time. 
 
Sigh, it's one of the main reasons why I don't collect any mainstream comics anymore.
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WW-Fan

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Edited By WW-Fan

and there is Wonder Woman and Wonder Man! :)
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ImperiousRix

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Edited By ImperiousRix

I think most of these female characters ARE first conceived to cash in on a popular male hero, and at the worst, they become uninteresting clones of their male counterparts.  However, when given the right care and attention, a lot of "female clones" become interesting and worthwhile in their own right.  Less than the character itself, I believe it just depends on the creative team given the character.

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tonis

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Edited By tonis

Not sure what's worse, the dude that looks like a lady or the lady that looks like a dude. 
Would Lady G-Man have a spotlight column here called 'The G-Spot'? 
 
Oh and you forgot Superman, he's been femanized several times.

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weapon154

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Edited By weapon154

Well, G-man forgot joker's daughter but the real question is where are all the girl heroes to guys?

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Michiel76

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Edited By Michiel76

Yeah don't you hate it.
 
you got:  Wonder Woman and Wonder Man.............oh wait

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DanialCarroll

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Edited By DanialCarroll

I like it... but only if they're slightly different. Deadpool and Lady Deadpool, for instance, are far too similar. Spider-Man and Spider-Woman have different abilities, so that's fine in my view.

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Anwar

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Edited By Anwar

Isn't Sara Lady G-Man? Oh yes I did. :P

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imaginaryman

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Edited By imaginaryman

I think publishers just do it as a fan service for people who wanna see some girls who do bad-ass things, some female versions are good like Lady Blackhawk, but I guess she kinda stands out coz the other blackhawks are dead and she works with BOP.

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Illyana Rasputin

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Edited By Illyana Rasputin

It Could Happen!
It Could Happen!
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fesak

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Edited By fesak  Moderator
@Gylan Thomas said:
" @fesak:  Dude that's brillaint! Where'd you ffind it? "
 
Mariano Navarro is the artist. He does a lot of gender-swaps.
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Green Skin

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Edited By Green Skin

 I think it's just an over used writer's trick to give the audience an instant connection to a new character. 

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X

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Edited By X

Their goals and attitude and personality should be different 

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Sanj

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Edited By Sanj

Lady G-Man is terrifying!

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Gylan Thomas

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Edited By Gylan Thomas
@fesak: 
Dude that's brillaint!
Where'd you ffind it?
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Planewalker

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Edited By Planewalker

It's just fan service and trying to cash in

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rogue_mar1e

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Edited By rogue_mar1e

There are definitely some female characters which may have been created to cash in on a successful idea . But even so, i do like how there are female versions of characters . Some of my favourite characters are derived from male superheroes (Supergirl, Lady Deadpool, X-23...) 
:)

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MikeDanger

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Edited By MikeDanger

some are kinda original in terms of personality,but what bothers me is that they're not really all that related to their oposite version of themselves, they do those characters and they want to put them independent sometimes without relating them to the original character. that's just sometimes... the other issue is that they'll never be as strong nor popular as the original character.  in my opinion Harley Quinn is the most popular one mentioned,and X-23 the strongest and coolest.  
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Gennadius

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Edited By Gennadius

I dont mind if they got a good backstory for like example X-23 her 2 mini-series where really really really good.

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Magian

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Edited By Magian

IMO they are trying to capitalize on a character's success although some of them are interesting. From what I know Spider-Man and Spider-Woman are unrelated. LMAO at Lady G-Man.
 @fesak:
LOL

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gmanfromheck

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Edited By gmanfromheck

Loki even went so far as to completely change his gender. 
 
But now I'm gonna have this song stuck in my head all day. 
  

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Chaos Prime

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Edited By Chaos Prime

Overused imo far too many female clones of male characters..

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OmegaDynasty

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Edited By OmegaDynasty

Rule 63 at it's finest. lol

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fesak

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Edited By fesak  Moderator

I think it's overused, but this topic gives me an excuse to post this:

No Caption Provided