First Look: ALL-NEW GHOSTRIDER #1

Question...How do you know he's african american? Does it say african or american somewhere and I'm missing it? Pretty sure assuming he's African american is another thing that comes off "slightly racist" all things considered lol. He might not even be american, he could be a Canadian citizen and be Dominican, Haitian, Cuban, Jamaican....etc

Aside from the jewelry he's barely the "stereotype" of a pimp, his clothes are fairly tame in general. Subtract the fur and he's just wearing a big hoodie/coat, those stupid sagging pants people still wear, and a big t-shirt. Not sure where you live but this is pretty normal dress for a lot of people. My high school dressed pretty much like that, the pants varied but same gist.

Side note, Take away the cars and you can see this same guy in NYC in most subway stations like everyday XD I always thought the pimp stereotype was completely outdated and a joke till I lived in manhattan for a few years. Heck you can see the generational differences between pimp attire just walking in certain spots.

Maybe you're just over thinking this image because your mind went straight to some PC train of thought that jumped to dehumanizing african americans =__= Your way of thinking is honestly kind of stressful if you plan to read comics lol Especially since the surrounding cast are wearing relatively the same vibe in clothes with varying ethnicities, reinforcing that the way people dress tends to reflect where they live and less to do with the color of their skin. But hey I looked at a scene and you looked at one character in it.

You still didn't give me an example of what would have been more appropriate for this scene beyond what they "did wrong".

Here comes.... GHOST DRIVER!!!

Pass on this.

Ok...I don't get the term wanna be. Wanna be what?

Race is not a choice. You're either American of African descent, etc,etc..or not. You can be of any race and be urban cultured. There is nothing a person can do illegally or legally that is privy to one race. Everybody Fs up and everybody can make the right decisions. I apologize if I offended anyone and really do apologize to the person who is sharing the information on the new Ghost Rider. My bad it is not my intent.

On topic though I do like the fresh take on a new Ghost Rider. I mean I love Blaze and would've accepted a new fresher take on him as well.

It just cool to see a more modern version on the Rider. I'm interested.

You are imagining a context that makes what has been presented to us as a standalone preview more acceptable, then trying to push blame on me for "being offended".

Not having it. I am under no obligation to withhold judgement and if such context of the book in its entirety materializes, then I can reevaluate my opinion. But I refuse to feel gun shy about calling a duck a slightly racist duck. Because it is.

Interesting example considering Dave Chappelle quit performing comedy for just this reason. His intentions were satire, and I would argue the art was pretty successful at that, but the audience was so dense that it routinely laughed not at the satire, but at the stereotypes the show was ostensibly trying to dissect and hold up as ridiculous.

I was at university—a predominantly white-attended university—when that show was popular. You know what I saw? A whole lot of white, conservative drunk kids stumbling about and shouting "rick james"-style stereotypical AAVE and quoting lines that included profanity and racial slurs. It sure didn't seem like they gave a whit about satire. They were happy to laugh at the ridiculousness but then conclude "because that's how black people are" instead of realizing the joke was "that's what racist idiots think black people are."

And Chappelle has continued to boycott his stupid, predominantly white audiences. And good for him.

No, because the historical context is different for whites. Here's the best explanation I've seen for why "reverse racism" is a BS concept:

I would portray the exact same scene with the exact same demographics while dropping the stereotypical pose, grill, glasses, and bling. Fin.

No, I'm not black. Why does that matter?

Nailed it.

No but seriously, get that "political correctness is destroying culture" nonsense out of my face. It is not such a cultural and artistic burden on you personally for artists to maybe not conform so rigidly to well known racial stereotypes in their work. I mean, heavens forbid, right? Right.

Oh, you got me! I used the term "African American"—a term frequently but not universally preferred by black Americans to avoid racist stereotyping—instead of "black"! I guess that makes me racist. Oh, and naturally invalidates my argument.

No, I don't use the AA term consistently, but when I see others in a thread or conversation using it, I tend to switch over because when someone prefers a certain term for referencing themselves, it costs you literally nothing to be respectful and use that term. That is like, "how not to be a dick 101". Advanced courses involve instruction on not dissecting a person's preferred terms for scientific and geographic universal accuracy because you want to show what a clever little cad you are.

So if you take away the racist stereotypical clothing it's suddenly not racist and stereotypical? Genius!

Again, the charge was "slightly racist", and what you describe is pretty much exactly my recommendation for fixing the scene in spirit, except I'd argue the grill, extravagant bling, and hyper-reflective gold shades aren't doing this portrayal any favors either. And most importantly, the pose could be made a little more functional to the action in the scene and less "rap pinup". But no, I guess it's just the coat.

Side note, personal anecdotes about some guys you saw don't make a stereotype less of a stereotype.

Yeah clearly it's my fault for noticing racist stereotypes and not the artist who leans on said stereotypes as a stand-in for creativity and characterization. It's just so stressful, noticing things all the time, I should learn to ignore racism and then it won't exist, right?

Or, it will cause me to uphold the racist status quo so I can enjoy this bastion of pop culture, ghost racer extravaganza unfettered by concerns of who it's dehumanizing in the process. And really, that's what's important, so what's the difference?

@fodigg: If you feel this strongly against this panel of a this stereotype, please tell me are you offended at Rick Remender's? Captain America? With how he used the oldest worst stereotypes of Irish immigrants having Steve's father be a jobless wife and child beating drunk? Or his Iron Nail character a pretty poor stereotype of an evil Asian warlord setting out to destroy the western world?

All I ever asked or tried to show you ways to withhold your judgement till you see the whole story. That's it, I gave hypothetical content to show you not everything has to be sinister, but you are not willing to even think of this as anything but wrong. I admire your passion and I respect what you are saying, but you cannot make claims without all the context, Dan Slott has gotten into many conversations with people on forms over that.

Now I have heard that about Dave Chapelle and in my opinion, he suffers from Kurt Cobain syndrome he could not handle that his comedy became a mainstream staple he never wanted that, I think when he sees the stupid college kids yelling " I'm Rick James B*tch" he realized that he added to the problems he was attempting to poke fun of. Also, your example of you were away in college at the time, rap and particularly the resurgence of "Gangsta" rap were widely popular. It was not just white kids that tried to act hard and wore their G-Unit T-shirt it was all races because it was a popular music and media fad that exploded the worst of black culture and sold it to the masses for profit. In that situation there was no innocent parties because everyone, no matter what race ate that stuff up.

Fodigg's I respect what you're attempting to do, but you have blown this out of proportion.

@fodigg: Wait did you just post a comedians joke and try to use it as a serious argument?

Listen, I come from a mixed family and I am all for political correctness what I'm not for is people trying to use the past as a reason we can not have racial equality in the future. If you look back in time every race every country was horrible to another because of a prejudice caused by fear. So saying it's acceptable to make fun of white people because of military conquest is a joke of an argument because every race is guilty of that. So enough of the white guilt already.

It come down to this if you judge a person on skin color your racist no matter what color that skin is.

I'm excited for this new Ghost Driver series... We'll see how it comes out after the first issue.

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Why is that a concern, because the fact that I acknowledge one portrayal as "slightly racist" means I'm using up my booklet of little gold racist stars to put on books that offend me? There's no upper limit on examples of racism. One does not excuse the other. A more egregious example does not mean we need to forgive slight examples.

And the historical context of Irish stereotypes are different from other minorities. That's why nobody's up in arms about the "fighting irish" mascot while washington's football team is getting some much deserved bad press. I readily admit that's it's lazy and overdone but it's not offensive in the same way.

It's not about passion, it's about acknowledging the truth of what we see. My unwillingness to shift my perspective without seeing contrary evidence is simply a matter of consistency. And I've said multiple times that if the context you're suggesting appears that I will shift my perspective accordingly. But for the time being, bigotry—big or small—is simply not a topic where I feel the need to say "whoa, guys, whoa, let's wait and see what they're really saying." That's a form of apologism.

You cannot put the blame for the cultural appropriation that went on during that time on everybody evenly. The minorities that bought into it were sold it by rich, predominantly white businessmen. It's wrong to blame the appropriated for their culture's appropriation. That's the typical 'both sides share the blame' type of golden mean fallacy that lets these things perpetuate unchallenged.

The only thing I've set out to do here is to support the charge of "slightly racist" in a clear and comprehensive manner, responding to each objection in turn.

I realize that there's a tendency to not want to talk about these topics and a misconception that to even suggest that something could be even remotely racist is a "monstrous" accusation, but that's just a silencing technique about a topic that really should be discussed because that's how things improve.

I'm not calling for a boycott. I'm not telling people to rend and tear their garments over this. I'm simply pointing out that the portrayal of a background character is problematic. That's all.

Satire is a valuable tool in combating ignorance. But if you prefer a straight breakdown of why reverse racism can take a hike, there are many to choose from. From a quick google search, here's one and then another that builds on the previous that should suffice.

I agree with forget white guilt, but not because there's nothing that white cultures have to be guilty about. I would simply say that white guilt is useless. It accomplishes nothing. Self-education about the topic of racism and doing the work to be a less bigoted individual, however, is a good thing.

Sure, it sucks to be hated on by someone else for something out of your control, but getting sassed or whatever because you're white shares only superficial similarities with the systematic racism, discrimination, disenfranchisement, imprisonment, legalized murder, and outright enslavement that minorities can face.

Hate and discrimination can come in many forms and are always bad, but reverse racism does not exist. It is a myth.

I want Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch

Why is there a racism debate going on here? Because of two panels of a black man in baggy clothes weaing a grill? I think everyone needs to calm down a little and kindly look through the dictionary. That's not racism, that's more of a stereotype, and you can hardly call it that because it's one character with no dilogue (at the moment.)

Racism is the persecution of others based on their ethnicity and or belief system. There's absolutely no persecution going on in that artwork. In fact, the character in question looks a lot like the actual writer Felipe Smith, and there's no reason to think anyone is a little racist because they decided to put themselves in their own book (if that's the case.) But yeah, there's no actual racism going on in these fun over-the-top panels of beautiful artwork.

@fodigg: The reason it's relevant is because, look you are willing to call this to be slightly racist yet you had no issues with those horrible stereotypes making it into the books? With context and substance that showed how truly stereotypical they are. It comes down to this why are you so willing to fight for something that you have only had a glimpse of yet you will not fight against the other harmful stereotypes to other races and nations. What you have said is ridiculous, so its offensive and harmful to show a black stereotype, but not an Irish one, any stereotype is a negative thing there should not be levels of acceptance.

Wait, so death row records, G-Unit records, def jam, young money, Island are all run and owned by rich white businessmen? That is a pretty crazy assumption you made there. Many of these rapper's knew of what they were doing, but they did not care why because money talks. "Urban culture" was profited on by people of all races that were in the business, Many of the juggernants at the time were owned by black rappers, So once again I reiterate no race was innocent in that matter.

Fair enough, we will have to agree to disagree because I simply feel it's too early to call anything if we did not see the completed work and calling a slight foul on something this early is problematic.

No Grill

No Baggy Pants and Tacky Clothes

No Bling Bling

= A much better scene, and most black people don't dress like that!

Your right because the judgement of anyone on skin color and not the character of there hate is racism. There is nothing reverse about it, If your black and you say I hate that man or women because he or she is white.....that is racism. There is nothing reverse about it because all races can be racist it's not exclusive to whites.

@fodigg: Thanks

@fodigg: So are you saying that black people can never be shown in a negative light anymore? Even if there is real people that look exactly like this and are doing the exact same things in real life?

@daredevil21134: Then you should read Thunderbolts

I am but I rather Johnny have a solo

You are not going to somehow convince me that this is less of a stereotype by pointing out how pervasive stereotyping is.

I think you're still confusing the appropriators with the originators. The latter don't vanish just when the former appear to plunder, and many of the creator-owned labels were founded precisely in response to these bad deals.

Sounds good. I do appreciate the discussion.

It's discrimination, it is not racism. The term "racism" implies institutionalized discrimination. Neither is good, but there's a difference.

I'm saying that you even if your explicit objective is to show a black person in a negative light you can do that without leaning on stereotypes.

And even if you incorporate elements of standard tropes or riff off common stylistic elements that could easily verge into stereotype, you can define these characters in other ways using solid characterization (and extremely talented acting).

And here's the thing, even if you did institute a hard "no POC villains" rule, you'd be making stuff for a good long while before you made the white hero/black villain ratio anywhere near even in Hollywood. And this tendency is paralleled in comics.

@fodigg: hold up, first of all your acting as if racism only happens in white majority countries. As for that none of this pictures you posted look anything like normal street culture so why would they even be remotely applicable? And you said that you can define common tropes in other ways with solid characterization but how do you know the writer HASN'T done that? When I seen that page the first thing I thought was oh he's the money man like Ludacris in 2 Fast 2 Furious. The first time you see it you brand the creative team racists.

@jonny_anonymous: Well Said!

Am I? Is there a country you can name where whites face overwhelming systematic oppression?

The pictures were responding to what was essentially "so no black villains/negative portrayals?"

It was a stereotype when Ludacris did it too, and the difference here is that it's a background character defined by that stereotype. There's a difference between a background character and a character you paid for Denzel to portray.

I'm not bothering to explain my reasoning again for assuming good intentions when you see bigoted stereotypes.

@fodigg: You're right, it should have been a Mexican since East L.A.. Because I'm sure there are no such things as the pimped out, grill-wearing, black dudes running or involved in the illegal street racing scene is East L.A.

Since you're not black, I don't care about continuing this argument anymore. The only people I want to see be offended by anything are the people that it pertains to. You're not a hero, your a self-righteous imbecile looking for attention on the internet. This argument that you and others have started (I'm not sure if it was you. Frankly, I don't care.) I'm just sick of people like you making bigger issues out of things that especially do not pertain to you. If you don't want to read this book, don't. You can't change it, you're not making a difference. You're a nobody like the rest of us in this infinite and digital world. You're voice isn't heard. Get over it.

Again, you can walk around East LA or wherever else and try and find examples and yell gotcha if you do and yet some guys you saw still won't make a stereotype not a stereotype.

I'm going to be charitable and interpret the above as an extravagant way of saying "you shouldn't speak for others". The problem with that line of thinking is that it leaves the work of calling out racism to the disenfranchised. This silences criticism in two ways: by limiting the number of persons "allowed" to speak up about it and by restricting the voices that are "allowed" to point it out to those voices who are already marginalized and more frequently dismissed. That's wrong.

Racism is a problem for everyone, not just those targeted, and it should be on the majority to do the majority of the work. And that's true even when the example in question is small (remember, "slightly racist") and the people you're talking to "don't care"--but apparently go out of their way to try and give you as much grief as possible for pointing it out. If you really "frankly don't care," then why are you so bothered by my pointing it out?

You've interpreted that right. The thing is, you're not black, don't be offended. If a black guy was to get offended, I could understand a lot more, but I haven't read of any black guys getting offended by this. I have found that white people, more often that black people, like to make accusations of racism the most.

I guess what I really want to say as well is this: If it bothers you so badly, you shouldn't post a comment on comicvine because it gets lost in the madness of comments that are posted. If you were truly upset about this, then write a letter to Marvel in regards to the offense you took from the above panels. Till then, I doubt your convictions.

If it's offensive, it's worth pointing out no matter who you are. A racist stereotype is a racist stereotype. All who consume art that contains a racial stereotype are affected by it even if they aren't targeted by it or even don't notice it, because it reinforces expectations for stereotypical portrayals.

It's only when people who are not directly targeted begin to notice these stereotypes and do better to avoid them that we can improve things. Artificially restricting who can comment doesn't do anything other than to make it easier to ignore.

My convictions, motivations, and dedication to any particular cause are not in question. The (slightly racist) portrayal in the preview is. That stands as-is regardless of my convictions or what you think of said convictions.

Seriously, this is the second type of "approved to complain" stamp you've tried to enforce for this. First, I'm not black, second, I'm not starting a mailing campaign, what's third? Do I have to swear a blood oath to Saruman? This is all just to silence criticism because it annoys you to have someone pointing out problematic themes in pop art that you follow.

Well, it annoys me to see racist stereotyping in pop art that I follow (slight or otherwise) and I have as much "right" to comment on that as you do to offer such responses to me or offer commentary on any other topic relating to said pop art. There are no required credentials. So deal with it, I guess.

Well, as much as it is your right to complain and have an opinion. It's my right to tell you you are wrong. You don't want to start a mailing campaign then you have no desire to see it changed. You are on here making accusations that this portrayal is racist, but I wonder how many black people are reading this comic book and thinking nothing of it. I think you just want to be heard, you, because you have no real motivation other than start something on the internet comments section to an article that is no longer on the home page. You have a right to make say something, you have all the rights in the world, and I have the right to tell you that you're "saying something" and your complaints are just noise lost in the mix. You have no conviction, because all you want to do is complain to others but don't want to take it to the source. So, I'll say it one last time, you have no conviction. That's your right I suppose.

Uh huh. Not saying anything new here.

Sounds good, there's only so many times we can beat a dead horse.

Agreed. Thanks for the discussion, regardless.

This looks sick, I will be checking this out. Also the racism argument is funny. Hipsters pointing out a stereotype over one panel in a preview? Ugh.

Regardless im excited for Tradd Moore to go nuts on this series.