Exclusive Preview: TEEN TITANS #15

I just realised that Batgirl and Starfire will both be in this issue. There's bound to be some tension in this issue.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@InkInk said:

@Zeeguy91: In the Dark Knight the joker was played how he was supposed to be he was a sick parody of the world that was the true meaning of chaos. Saying I am the criminal they deserves is the same motivatsion as being crazy and doing it. He felt his insanity was needed to keep the world sane. Snyder is creeping closer to the old Frank Millar theory were the Joker loves Batman.

No. They may not be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't make them the same. Joker never said "I'm gonna keep the world sane by my insanity." His motivation was to give Gotham an alternative to the corrupt mob boss who only cares about money. Actual insane people don't admit that they're insane. Instead, insanity means that they have a skewed perception of the world or of how to fix the world. Therefore, whatever they do, they believe they're justified. Joker in The Dark Knight didn't think he was insane. He thought he was the only one who saw humanity for what it was: greedy, corrupt, and selfish.

Again this does fit in to the theory of him becoming a sick parody of the world. Never do I think that Joker is like I am crazy hahahahahahahaha let me kill people and do weird things. He has a reason for doing what he does and that is to be the worlds chaos its sickness that it does not want to face. He is the worlds avatar of Chaos like Batman is for Justice.

@InkInk said:

@Zeeguy91: In the Dark Knight the joker was played how he was supposed to be he was a sick parody of the world that was the true meaning of chaos. Saying I am the criminal they deserves is the same motivatsion as being crazy and doing it. He felt his insanity was needed to keep the world sane. Snyder is creeping closer to the old Frank Millar theory were the Joker loves Batman.

No. They may not be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't make them the same. Joker never said "I'm gonna keep the world sane by my insanity." His motivation was to give Gotham an alternative to the corrupt mob boss who only cares about money. Actual insane people don't admit that they're insane. Instead, insanity means that they have a skewed perception of the world or of how to fix the world. Therefore, whatever they do, they believe they're justified. Joker in The Dark Knight didn't think he was insane. He thought he was the only one who saw humanity for what it was: greedy, corrupt, and selfish.

@Zeeguy91: In the Dark Knight the joker was played how he was supposed to be he was a sick parody of the world that was the true meaning of chaos. Saying I am the criminal they deserves is the same motivatsion as being crazy and doing it. He felt his insanity was needed to keep the world sane. Snyder is creeping closer to the old Frank Millar theory were the Joker loves Batman.

@InkInk: Chaos can simply mean violence or unrest. What I mean by "chaos with a purpose" is that Joker should be a mass murderer and terrorist who incites fear. However, he should have a reason, even a reason that only makes sense to him, behind his doing so. For example, one of my favorite incarnations of Joker is Heath Ledger's portrayal of the character in The Dark Knight. In that movie, Joker chooses to become the "criminal that Gotham deserves." Now, granted that's not the best motivator, but its a hell of a lot better than "I'm doing this just cuz I'm crazy." Likewise, Snyder's Joker is doing what he's doing because he actually cares about Batman and is trying to make him better.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@cameron83 said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Thank You for articulating a lot of what I was trying to say. I mean, Joker is great as an agent of chaos, but that chaos should have a bigger reason behind it, if that makes sense.

This might come across mean but if so I'm, sorry in advance. Saying chaos should have a reason behind goes against the meaning of the word. So saying that Joker who is the avatar for chaos as Batman is for justice should have a big reason for his plans is against the meaning and symbolism of the character.

@cameron83 said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Thank You for articulating a lot of what I was trying to say. I mean, Joker is great as an agent of chaos, but that chaos should have a bigger reason behind it, if that makes sense.

@cameron83 said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Honestly I think both make soild statements but I find myself seeing BR Havoc's point of view, This last post I thought did a good job of suming up the Joker and how he is considered to be Batman's greatest villain the ying yang if you will. I am enjoying the story so far but I do believe it is greatly over hyped and In five years it will be considered "overrated" just like Batman Hush. The idea that the joker iseven more deadly is comical to me. Big deal he killed 19 cops and beat an old man he has done worst things in the past. In Batman RIP he kills a whole party full of people with a straight razor so this is nothing new.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point. To see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

The reason I added there opinions is they have been in the industry a hell of a lot longer then Snyder they are considered legends and since hell they wrote and drew the character successfully for so many years maybe they would know what makes the character great.

Ok so you are saying his sick humor is what is key to the character sure I believe that is part of the what makes the character great as well but answer me this has Snyder done a good job writing the humor side of the joker? I do not think he has, have you laughed once?. The Joker is supposed to be a sick and twisted parody of the world he is extremely unpredictable which is how he survives in the death of the family arc I do not see that. I see a character that DC is trying hard to make you be shocked and scared of him.

The fact that the joker is unpredictable is the way he survives in the universe, if you think about it he can't fight but people fear him because there is no telling what goes on in his mind. Think about it Batman fights an army of undead assassins, has villains that are like Bane roided out and brilliant yet a psychopath with no fighting ability and some knowledge of chemistry is his greatest villain, why because he is unpredictable he does not follow patterns, you do not know what he is capable of or what he is thinking at any given time. Its how it has always been with the Joker.

I am was never saying the characters were exactly the same what I was saying is its clear that jokers new look and persona looks as if Snyder watched TCM and based a Joker story off what he saw. I mean there is no way you can not tell me that the new Freeze is just Norman Bates with a cold gun.

I do not see the horror movie reference to the Joker outside of the skined face, but after reading this I went back and looked threw Batman Annuel and was shocked how spot on the description "Notman Bates with a cold gun" is to the rebooted orgin of Mister Freeze.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

@doordoor123: I agree.This doesn't seem like batgirl at all.Also,why is she making crappy jokes?

And why is it that when she jumps in one issue,she's smiling,then frowning?!

@MutieLover said:

I have no idea why the Bat-characters treat others like crap, and why people allow that. Also, why not just call this book "Red Robin and The Teen Titans"?

Jerks live longer in Gotham.

Gorgeous art of course, but hey that's Booth for you. This in all honesty is the only single issue of the whole "Death of the Family" arc that I'm getting since TT is one of my monthly holds.

I have no idea why the Bat-characters treat others like crap, and why people allow that. Also, why not just call this book "Red Robin and The Teen Titans"?

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point. To see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

The reason I added there opinions is they have been in the industry a hell of a lot longer then Snyder they are considered legends and since hell they wrote and drew the character successfully for so many years maybe they would know what makes the character great.

Ok so you are saying his sick humor is what is key to the character sure I believe that is part of the what makes the character great as well but answer me this has Snyder done a good job writing the humor side of the joker? I do not think he has, have you laughed once?. The Joker is supposed to be a sick and twisted parody of the world he is extremely unpredictable which is how he survives in the death of the family arc I do not see that. I see a character that DC is trying hard to make you be shocked and scared of him.

The fact that the joker is unpredictable is the way he survives in the universe, if you think about it he can't fight but people fear him because there is no telling what goes on in his mind. Think about it Batman fights an army of undead assassins, has villains that are like Bane roided out and brilliant yet a psychopath with no fighting ability and some knowledge of chemistry is his greatest villain, why because he is unpredictable he does not follow patterns, you do not know what he is capable of or what he is thinking at any given time. Its how it has always been with the Joker.

I am was never saying the characters were exactly the same what I was saying is its clear that jokers new look and persona looks as if Snyder watched TCM and based a Joker story off what he saw. I mean there is no way you can not tell me that the new Freeze is just Norman Bates with a cold gun.

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

I actually think the characterisation of bat girl is spot on if you follow the story. How can she have any sort of 'positive mood after what the joker just did to her mum?

I can tell I'm not into this book from the first image; if Escher Girls has taught me anything is that that pose is not natural and with that cape is flown like that, there's no doubt that it is to show off Barbara's "assets"

looks great!

it is this detail and precision of awesomeness that is needed on books such as RHTO, please Booth. Come to hoodies, we will buy you snacks

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@Smart_Dork_Dude said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

Not the first time it's happened. The Arkham games did that a lot. Scarecrow= Freddy Kruger, Zsasz = Ghost Face, Riddler = Jigsaw from Saw

Yes you are very right but at least in the games they still feel like the character. I mean to me Freeze is Norman Bates in a freeze suit the new one has none of the character of Victor. With the Joker I see it being very similar Joker is now very one dimensional by taking his unpredictability he is now just focused and its kill kill kill give him a chainsaw and he is Leatherface.

Hope the point I am trying to say makes sense?

Except that Joker is actually doing all of this for a reason. He'd be one-dimensional if he was simply saying that he wanted to kill all of Batman's friends because he's evil and that's all he does. I haven't read any of the Death of the Family stuff except for Batman, Detective, and Nightwing, but Scott's made it kind of clear that Joker has a motive behind this onslaught.

So far the Joker has been extremely one dimensional during the Death of the family arc. Snyder is a talented writer but one thing he does not do well is develop characters. The Joker lost his unpredictability the thing that made him scary no matter what he has always had a motive to do the things he does. Snyder here took much of the characters personality away to attempt to make him scarier my problem with that is he is no longer the Joker he is Leatherface.

Um...some facts would be appreciated. I know this is a comic book website, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't back up their statements with fact instead of pure opinion. How has the Joker been less unpredictable? And, on a related note, how does one measure unpredictability? If anything, Scott's added to his unpredictable nature by indicating that he may have known Bruce and the entire Bat-family's secret identities for years and never let on that he did.

And I'm not saying he never had a motive for his actions, but that like before he has a motive now for what he's doing. The comparison to Leatherface is also incredibly inaccurate. The two are completely different characters that actually look to have nothing in common.

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

@BR_Havoc said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@Smart_Dork_Dude said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

Not the first time it's happened. The Arkham games did that a lot. Scarecrow= Freddy Kruger, Zsasz = Ghost Face, Riddler = Jigsaw from Saw

Yes you are very right but at least in the games they still feel like the character. I mean to me Freeze is Norman Bates in a freeze suit the new one has none of the character of Victor. With the Joker I see it being very similar Joker is now very one dimensional by taking his unpredictability he is now just focused and its kill kill kill give him a chainsaw and he is Leatherface.

Hope the point I am trying to say makes sense?

Except that Joker is actually doing all of this for a reason. He'd be one-dimensional if he was simply saying that he wanted to kill all of Batman's friends because he's evil and that's all he does. I haven't read any of the Death of the Family stuff except for Batman, Detective, and Nightwing, but Scott's made it kind of clear that Joker has a motive behind this onslaught.

So far the Joker has been extremely one dimensional during the Death of the family arc. Snyder is a talented writer but one thing he does not do well is develop characters. The Joker lost his unpredictability the thing that made him scary no matter what he has always had a motive to do the things he does. Snyder here took much of the characters personality away to attempt to make him scarier my problem with that is he is no longer the Joker he is Leatherface.

Um...some facts would be appreciated. I know this is a comic book website, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't back up their statements with fact instead of pure opinion. How has the Joker been less unpredictable? And, on a related note, how does one measure unpredictability? If anything, Scott's added to his unpredictable nature by indicating that he may have known Bruce and the entire Bat-family's secret identities for years and never let on that he did.

And I'm not saying he never had a motive for his actions, but that like before he has a motive now for what he's doing. The comparison to Leatherface is also incredibly inaccurate. The two are completely different characters that actually look to have nothing in common.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@Smart_Dork_Dude said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

Not the first time it's happened. The Arkham games did that a lot. Scarecrow= Freddy Kruger, Zsasz = Ghost Face, Riddler = Jigsaw from Saw

Yes you are very right but at least in the games they still feel like the character. I mean to me Freeze is Norman Bates in a freeze suit the new one has none of the character of Victor. With the Joker I see it being very similar Joker is now very one dimensional by taking his unpredictability he is now just focused and its kill kill kill give him a chainsaw and he is Leatherface.

Hope the point I am trying to say makes sense?

Except that Joker is actually doing all of this for a reason. He'd be one-dimensional if he was simply saying that he wanted to kill all of Batman's friends because he's evil and that's all he does. I haven't read any of the Death of the Family stuff except for Batman, Detective, and Nightwing, but Scott's made it kind of clear that Joker has a motive behind this onslaught.

So far the Joker has been extremely one dimensional during the Death of the family arc. Snyder is a talented writer but one thing he does not do well is develop characters. The Joker lost his unpredictability the thing that made him scary no matter what he has always had a motive to do the things he does. Snyder here took much of the characters personality away to attempt to make him scarier my problem with that is he is no longer the Joker he is Leatherface.

@BR_Havoc said:

@Smart_Dork_Dude said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

Not the first time it's happened. The Arkham games did that a lot. Scarecrow= Freddy Kruger, Zsasz = Ghost Face, Riddler = Jigsaw from Saw

Yes you are very right but at least in the games they still feel like the character. I mean to me Freeze is Norman Bates in a freeze suit the new one has none of the character of Victor. With the Joker I see it being very similar Joker is now very one dimensional by taking his unpredictability he is now just focused and its kill kill kill give him a chainsaw and he is Leatherface.

Hope the point I am trying to say makes sense?

Except that Joker is actually doing all of this for a reason. He'd be one-dimensional if he was simply saying that he wanted to kill all of Batman's friends because he's evil and that's all he does. I haven't read any of the Death of the Family stuff except for Batman, Detective, and Nightwing, but Scott's made it kind of clear that Joker has a motive behind this onslaught.

Instead of ruining the Teen Titans, they could have made this a Red Robin series.

Very clever!

@evilvegeta74 said:

@Ironhawk22:

i really like BB's art, if only he had to time to do more books, id buy a lote more of DC's stuff

Yeey!

@Ironhawk22:

Nice! Booth and Rapmund...one solid art team there.

@ME24601 said:

@Hastny: Scott Lobdel has no idea about how to write these characters.

which is probably why Nicieza is writing the dialog

im ok if you want to critize anything but at least criticize the right ones

@CaioTrubat said:

Am I the only one who thinks the new Joker looks awful?

I just don't like that he's been wearing a lame mechanic's onesie through this whole thing so far. Where's the purple suit?

@Smart_Dork_Dude said:

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

Not the first time it's happened. The Arkham games did that a lot. Scarecrow= Freddy Kruger, Zsasz = Ghost Face, Riddler = Jigsaw from Saw

Yes you are very right but at least in the games they still feel like the character. I mean to me Freeze is Norman Bates in a freeze suit the new one has none of the character of Victor. With the Joker I see it being very similar Joker is now very one dimensional by taking his unpredictability he is now just focused and its kill kill kill give him a chainsaw and he is Leatherface.

Hope the point I am trying to say makes sense?

looking forward to this I love both Characters (3 if you count Joker)

But looks like I have to double dip again (My comic shop that does my orders only tend to get cover A).

I HATE the mask covers, I want the badass artwork, Especially THAT cover

@arnoldoaad: Yeah, I thought that was a little tasteless too on the "iCarly" remark. I would have expected that kind of comment from Red Hood and Damian but Barbara?

Does that first splash page of babara look weird to anyone else?

Love Booth's art so very much.

@CaioTrubat I'm eagerly and impatiently looking forward to Joker getting his face back to normal and to purple suit up. Maybe a nice Armani or his classic tux.

Don't like the cover. But I will get this.

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

Not the first time it's happened. The Arkham games did that a lot. Scarecrow= Freddy Kruger, Zsasz = Ghost Face, Riddler = Jigsaw from Saw

@Hastny: Scott Lobdel has no idea about how to write these characters.

Why isn't Fabian Nicieza's name on the cover? Or in the description? What the hell?!

@Cavemold said:

Is WG shirt about to come off.??

Her shirt isn't even close to coming off. Get your mind out of the gutter...

Like the art. But that dialouge is really horrid.

@cameron83 said:

@CaioTrubat: how does he look awful...the only difference is the face,but it's not permanent...

Its just for a story arc

his face has been skinned off. How is that not permanent?

Personally, I actually like the dialogue in this preview. Though I'm disappointed it opens with Batgirl instead of Arsenal. Makes me think him and starfire won't show up till the end or something.

@CaioTrubat: how does he look awful...the only difference is the face,but it's not permanent...

Its just for a story arc

@BR_Havoc said:

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).

I see. Maybe that is the point, he is making him so spooky until its impossible to take him seriously anymore.

I got something better...

:P

@arnoldoaad said:

wow, Batgirl sounds way more unlikable than in her own book, thats an accomplishment

seriously i dont get the snark, she has been way more childish now than ever and she is just 21, the TT are 16-18 so therefore they are the Icarly crew, what?

Yeah, I don't understand how people can be so rude... oh wait....

i want them to stay together and be all titans like starfire and arsenal to train them

Not really a fan of Booths art to be honest ....

@CaioTrubat: Nope I agree 100 percent. I think Snyder just watches horror movies and goes hey yeah I am going to make a Batman villain just like that. I mean Joker (Leatherface) Freeze (Norman Bates).