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Exclusive Preview: TEEN TITANS #15

Red Robin will be teaming up with Red Hood against Joker. Will they be able to survive his crazy and deadly scheme?

This week we saw Death of the Family creep into RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS. If you read the issue and TEEN TITANS #14, you know Joker already has captured both Tim Drake and Jason Todd. With these two occupied and at the mercy of Joker's crazy scheme, it looks like it's up to Roy Harper to take charge of both the Outlaws and Teen Titans.

Check out our exclusive preview for TEEN TITANS #15, on sale January 2, 2013.

TEEN TITANS #15

• A “DEATH OF THE FAMILY” tie-in!
• Red Hood and Red Robin team up against The Joker!
• Will Arsenal take over the Titans?
• Guest-starring Batgirl!

Written by: Scott Lobdell

Art by: Brett Booth, Norm Rapmund

Cover by: Greg Capullo

Variant Cover by: Brett Booth, Mark Irwin

Color/B&W: Color

Page Count: 32

U.S. Price: 2.99

On Sale Date: Jan 2 2013

== TEASER ==
68 Comments
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Posted by snootchie_bootchies

looks great!

Posted by Maki_P

I can tell I'm not into this book from the first image; if Escher Girls has taught me anything is that that pose is not natural and with that cape is flown like that, there's no doubt that it is to show off Barbara's "assets"

Posted by moonsault86

I actually think the characterisation of bat girl is spot on if you follow the story. How can she have any sort of 'positive mood after what the joker just did to her mum?

Edited by Zeeguy91

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Posted by BR_Havoc

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point. To see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

The reason I added there opinions is they have been in the industry a hell of a lot longer then Snyder they are considered legends and since hell they wrote and drew the character successfully for so many years maybe they would know what makes the character great.

Ok so you are saying his sick humor is what is key to the character sure I believe that is part of the what makes the character great as well but answer me this has Snyder done a good job writing the humor side of the joker? I do not think he has, have you laughed once?. The Joker is supposed to be a sick and twisted parody of the world he is extremely unpredictable which is how he survives in the death of the family arc I do not see that. I see a character that DC is trying hard to make you be shocked and scared of him.

The fact that the joker is unpredictable is the way he survives in the universe, if you think about it he can't fight but people fear him because there is no telling what goes on in his mind. Think about it Batman fights an army of undead assassins, has villains that are like Bane roided out and brilliant yet a psychopath with no fighting ability and some knowledge of chemistry is his greatest villain, why because he is unpredictable he does not follow patterns, you do not know what he is capable of or what he is thinking at any given time. Its how it has always been with the Joker.

I am was never saying the characters were exactly the same what I was saying is its clear that jokers new look and persona looks as if Snyder watched TCM and based a Joker story off what he saw. I mean there is no way you can not tell me that the new Freeze is just Norman Bates with a cold gun.

Posted by MutieLover

I have no idea why the Bat-characters treat others like crap, and why people allow that. Also, why not just call this book "Red Robin and The Teen Titans"?

Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus

Gorgeous art of course, but hey that's Booth for you. This in all honesty is the only single issue of the whole "Death of the Family" arc that I'm getting since TT is one of my monthly holds.

Posted by Outside_85

@MutieLover said:

I have no idea why the Bat-characters treat others like crap, and why people allow that. Also, why not just call this book "Red Robin and The Teen Titans"?

Jerks live longer in Gotham.

Online
Posted by cameron83

@doordoor123: I agree.This doesn't seem like batgirl at all.Also,why is she making crappy jokes?

And why is it that when she jumps in one issue,she's smiling,then frowning?!

Posted by cameron83

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Posted by InkInk

@cameron83 said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Honestly I think both make soild statements but I find myself seeing BR Havoc's point of view, This last post I thought did a good job of suming up the Joker and how he is considered to be Batman's greatest villain the ying yang if you will. I am enjoying the story so far but I do believe it is greatly over hyped and In five years it will be considered "overrated" just like Batman Hush. The idea that the joker iseven more deadly is comical to me. Big deal he killed 19 cops and beat an old man he has done worst things in the past. In Batman RIP he kills a whole party full of people with a straight razor so this is nothing new.

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point. To see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

The reason I added there opinions is they have been in the industry a hell of a lot longer then Snyder they are considered legends and since hell they wrote and drew the character successfully for so many years maybe they would know what makes the character great.

Ok so you are saying his sick humor is what is key to the character sure I believe that is part of the what makes the character great as well but answer me this has Snyder done a good job writing the humor side of the joker? I do not think he has, have you laughed once?. The Joker is supposed to be a sick and twisted parody of the world he is extremely unpredictable which is how he survives in the death of the family arc I do not see that. I see a character that DC is trying hard to make you be shocked and scared of him.

The fact that the joker is unpredictable is the way he survives in the universe, if you think about it he can't fight but people fear him because there is no telling what goes on in his mind. Think about it Batman fights an army of undead assassins, has villains that are like Bane roided out and brilliant yet a psychopath with no fighting ability and some knowledge of chemistry is his greatest villain, why because he is unpredictable he does not follow patterns, you do not know what he is capable of or what he is thinking at any given time. Its how it has always been with the Joker.

I am was never saying the characters were exactly the same what I was saying is its clear that jokers new look and persona looks as if Snyder watched TCM and based a Joker story off what he saw. I mean there is no way you can not tell me that the new Freeze is just Norman Bates with a cold gun.

I do not see the horror movie reference to the Joker outside of the skined face, but after reading this I went back and looked threw Batman Annuel and was shocked how spot on the description "Notman Bates with a cold gun" is to the rebooted orgin of Mister Freeze.

Posted by Zeeguy91

@cameron83 said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Thank You for articulating a lot of what I was trying to say. I mean, Joker is great as an agent of chaos, but that chaos should have a bigger reason behind it, if that makes sense.

Posted by InkInk

@Zeeguy91 said:

@cameron83 said:

@Zeeguy91 said:

@BR_Havoc said:

In a TV mini series called Inked comic legends Dennis O'neil and Neil Adams both state that what makes the Joker such a great villain is that you do not know what he is going to do next. If you met him in a dark alley he could tell you a joke (Via Killing Joke) or he could cut your throat. This focused Joker has none of that in him, he is just death and destruction his mind is one tracked and he not once had any of the sick humor that the character is know for having, Every character he meet from Harley to Nightwing its let me kick the crap out of them. This story arc has made Batman look very stupid and that he has never once learned anything from previous battles with the Joker making the character of Bruce Wayne and Batman both shallow and one dimensional.

How is the comparison to LeatherFace inaccurate are you saying its not painfully obvious that Joker new face mask look is not based off of the horror icon? Also lets see Leatherface is also a psychopath with his own motives that is incredibly focused in bring death and destruction so how is this not a fair comparison?

Who cares what Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams said what they think makes Joker scary in a TV interview? They're not the final say on what makes Joker, Joker. To me, Joker's unpredictability was never what made him scary or a great villain. It was his sadistic humor and how he treated death and destruction like a huge joke. I always felt that if I ran into Joker in an alleyway, that I would be dead. What scares me about Joker is how he would find some sadistically funny way to kill me. Like O'Neil and Adams, Greg Rucka once shared what makes Joker a great villain and his thoughts were that when written well, he should make you sick to your stomach and then make you laugh at the most inopportune time and then you should hate yourself for laughing. What makes Joker such a great villain to me is that he is an agent of chaos, death, and destruction but disguises that sickness in a jovial facade.

In fact, the unpredictability angle that you keep pushing could be argued as something that weakens Joker's character, showing he lacks any real direction. When you look at all great villains, they all have their goals and missions: Ra's al Ghul wants to save the world, Lex Luthor wants to reclaim his place as Metropolis' favorite son and is scared to death of Superman, Sinestro wants to instill order through fear, Magneto wants mutant-kind to rise up and claim their "rightful place" as the superior race, etc. And Joker, Joker has always wanted to "play the game" with Batman. That's why he's going after the Bat-family. Because he believes they're making Batman weaker. Yes, Joker here is more focused. That's the whole point: to see what would happen if Joker focused his full energy on destroying the Bat-family.

And the Leatherface analogy is still not completely accurate because the mask that Joker is wearing is his own face. Leatherface makes masks out of other peoples' faces and engages in cannibalism. That's kind of a big difference.

Sorry,but I agree with Zeeguy91.

To me,there is a vast difference with scot snyders joker/villains,and horror movie characters.In fact,If I remember correctly,the joker's main motive in main media was just hey,I'm crazy,why not just start killing people.In fact,I hear of this guy called batman....

And then we all know what happens,batman always foils the jokers plans the exact same way (joker actually explained how it always goes in scott snyder's book.And it was done in a very,very,very clever way).

The only link to horror movies is his face,but unlike past joker,he doesn't kill for no reason,he's insane,not mindless and dumb.

I think Zeeguy91 actually got the main point.

Joker never lost unpredictability,in fact,I would say that it's quite the contrary in the new 52.I mean,the thing with the face,making people think he was dead for an entire year (I think it was a year),etc...all of this was never done before.But I think Zeeguy91 got it better,it's his sense of humor....

I mean,I am tired of the same type of Joker plot where everything is justified by just because,I want to cause havok for no good reason...and I want to cause suffering to batman...because I want to.

Batman foils his plans,he gets put in the jacket for 6 months,escapes,etc..

And in the new 52,he still seemed to be incredibly reminiscent of joker.The only thing people don't like is the face,because they don't want it to be permanent,I feel the same way,but instead of assuming,enjoy the story.I think scott made joker even deadlier,while sticking to the character.I must applaud scott,because that is not an easy thing to do....instead of joker just doing things for no reason.

Thank You for articulating a lot of what I was trying to say. I mean, Joker is great as an agent of chaos, but that chaos should have a bigger reason behind it, if that makes sense.

This might come across mean but if so I'm, sorry in advance. Saying chaos should have a reason behind goes against the meaning of the word. So saying that Joker who is the avatar for chaos as Batman is for justice should have a big reason for his plans is against the meaning and symbolism of the character.

Edited by Zeeguy91

@InkInk: Chaos can simply mean violence or unrest. What I mean by "chaos with a purpose" is that Joker should be a mass murderer and terrorist who incites fear. However, he should have a reason, even a reason that only makes sense to him, behind his doing so. For example, one of my favorite incarnations of Joker is Heath Ledger's portrayal of the character in The Dark Knight. In that movie, Joker chooses to become the "criminal that Gotham deserves." Now, granted that's not the best motivator, but its a hell of a lot better than "I'm doing this just cuz I'm crazy." Likewise, Snyder's Joker is doing what he's doing because he actually cares about Batman and is trying to make him better.

Posted by InkInk

@Zeeguy91: In the Dark Knight the joker was played how he was supposed to be he was a sick parody of the world that was the true meaning of chaos. Saying I am the criminal they deserves is the same motivatsion as being crazy and doing it. He felt his insanity was needed to keep the world sane. Snyder is creeping closer to the old Frank Millar theory were the Joker loves Batman.

Posted by Zeeguy91

@InkInk said:

@Zeeguy91: In the Dark Knight the joker was played how he was supposed to be he was a sick parody of the world that was the true meaning of chaos. Saying I am the criminal they deserves is the same motivatsion as being crazy and doing it. He felt his insanity was needed to keep the world sane. Snyder is creeping closer to the old Frank Millar theory were the Joker loves Batman.

No. They may not be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't make them the same. Joker never said "I'm gonna keep the world sane by my insanity." His motivation was to give Gotham an alternative to the corrupt mob boss who only cares about money. Actual insane people don't admit that they're insane. Instead, insanity means that they have a skewed perception of the world or of how to fix the world. Therefore, whatever they do, they believe they're justified. Joker in The Dark Knight didn't think he was insane. He thought he was the only one who saw humanity for what it was: greedy, corrupt, and selfish.

Posted by InkInk

@Zeeguy91 said:

@InkInk said:

@Zeeguy91: In the Dark Knight the joker was played how he was supposed to be he was a sick parody of the world that was the true meaning of chaos. Saying I am the criminal they deserves is the same motivatsion as being crazy and doing it. He felt his insanity was needed to keep the world sane. Snyder is creeping closer to the old Frank Millar theory were the Joker loves Batman.

No. They may not be mutually exclusive, but that doesn't make them the same. Joker never said "I'm gonna keep the world sane by my insanity." His motivation was to give Gotham an alternative to the corrupt mob boss who only cares about money. Actual insane people don't admit that they're insane. Instead, insanity means that they have a skewed perception of the world or of how to fix the world. Therefore, whatever they do, they believe they're justified. Joker in The Dark Knight didn't think he was insane. He thought he was the only one who saw humanity for what it was: greedy, corrupt, and selfish.

Again this does fit in to the theory of him becoming a sick parody of the world. Never do I think that Joker is like I am crazy hahahahahahahaha let me kill people and do weird things. He has a reason for doing what he does and that is to be the worlds chaos its sickness that it does not want to face. He is the worlds avatar of Chaos like Batman is for Justice.

Posted by mfundo

I just realised that Batgirl and Starfire will both be in this issue. There's bound to be some tension in this issue.