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Erasing the Original Teen Titans

They may not have been Teen Titans but does that mean they never were a team?

If there's one thing the New 52 does it's getting people talking. There has been a level of excitement in seeing the changes and finding out what DC has planned for the characters. There is also the sense of confusion in wondering what has or has not happened. Some characters like Batman and Green Lantern have seen very little changes to their history. Other characters have been completely rewritten.

The New 52 was meant to be a soft reset for the years of continuity. It was all to be new reader friendly. Because of this, it's understandable that some bits of character history would be tweaked and other parts removed. The dreaded 'five years ago' also played a big factor in condensing major events in the characters' lives.

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With the Teen Titans, we've seen that in the first year of the New 52, the decision has been made to change Tim Drake's current team from being a new incarnation of the team to being the actual first time there ever has been a group of Teen Titans. If this is the case, what does that mean for all the previous Teen Titans stories and characters?

== TEASER ==
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The original Teen Titans consisted of Dick Grayson (as Robin), Wally West (as Kid Flash) and Garth (Aqualad). Shortly after their first appearance, they were joined by Donna Troy and Roy Harper. Looking at this roster, Dick and Roy are the only ones that currently officially exist in the New 52. Wally, Garth and Donna have not been seen or mentioned. We don't know if they actually exist or are simply somewhere else (which we refer to as 'comic book limbo'). Just because we haven't see the others doesn't mean they don't exist and they never had their adventures. Or does it?

The team continued in the late 60s and 70s with a couple cancellations to the series as well as new members when the series returned. Other characters such as Beast Boy, Bumblebee, Bat-Girl, Duela Dent and Hawk and Dove were either introduced or brought into some of the stories. It was the Marv Wolfman and George Perez series, THE NEW TEEN TITANS in the 80s that introduced Starfire, Cyborg and Raven as well as provided their biggest adversary, Deathstroke the Terminator.

Did any of these adventures happen? What about the epic story, "The Judas Contract" where Deathstroke has Terra infiltrate the team in order to utterly defeat them? Deathstroke doesn't appear to have any connection or interest in any of the members. Beast Boy has been re-introduced as part of the Ravagers. Cyborg's accident lead him straight to the roster of the Justice League.

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #6
RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #6

In RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #6 we did get a tiny bit of hope. In a flashback to Jason Todd's return from the dead, he encounters Starfire for the first time. She mentions her memories were a little fuzzy but did allude to spending time with Dick and Roy as what we can assume a team of sorts. Dick was even shown wearing his blue Nightwing costume. This means some of the original Teen Titans adventures could have still happened. They could also have been on a team with Wally, Donna and even Cyborg. Maybe.

Just because characters such as Donna and Wally haven't been seen or mentioned doesn't mean they don't exist. DC has mentioned they are merely waiting for the right time and right stories to re-introduce the missing characters such as them. We can assume Beast Boy had no interaction with them from his appearances in 'The Culling' and RAVAGERS. Cyborg may be part of the Justice League but we get the feeling that team hasn't spent an enormous amount of time together. They still don't know everything about each other and may have only gathered together for the major threats. This could give Cyborg the opportunity to have adventures with others. Although, in the recent JUSTICE LEAGUE #13, we strongly get the impression he simply sits around the Watchtower alone.

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Of course the current TEEN TITANS series guarantees that the last volume, all 100 issues, hasn't happened. At least those adventures haven't happened yet.

For those concerned about these past stories, it's been said that we still have our old copies and trades. We can live with the knowledge that they did occur for us back then. They are just no longer part of the current continuity. It's unfortunate that it has to be an extreme case of either the events happened or they didn't. It could have been left more ambiguous. We could have been lead to believe that there was a Teen Titans in the past without the specifics being told what issues did or didn't happen. With BATMAN and GREEN LANTERN comics, we can assume most things happened. By clearly stating that there wasn't a Teen Titans before pretty much wipes out the chance that the previous stories happened in any shape or form.

It's understandable that editorial may wish to step back a little and have this new Teen Titans be introduced to readers without a lot of baggage. It just isn't necessary to completely obliterate the history that all of the characters associated with the Teen Titans just to accommodate this idea. We can still hope that someday we'll find out more about the adventures Nightwing, Starfire and Arsenal had. It's possible some of the other former Titans were involved. Until then, we'll have to keep reading our old trades to make sure the stories are not forgotten.

114 Comments

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WonderHunter

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Edited By WonderHunter

@BatWatch said:

I tried to read the article G-Man, but by the end, I was too ticked off by being reminded of the unnecessary changes. I've always liked the saying, "If it aint broke, don't fix it." There were a few specific things that were broken at DC before the reboot, but the reboot wiped out tons of stuff just in the name of change. Teen Titans is such an example.

@RedheadedAtrocitus said:

Yeah sadly Teen Titans is another example of something that was MUCH finer in the pre-Flashpoint reality and was completely revamped, and not for the better, in the current continuity. Just a sad reminder, even if for me the classic stories will always be canon in my mind, always.

@mfundo said:

I love the original Teen Titans. Each team member fit so well together.

@Black Lantern Mar-vell said:

MY Teen Titans was Dick, Starfire, Cyborg, Raven, Donna, & Beast Boy. In my mind THEY STILL ARE! You shouldn't have to change history in order to be able to write good new stories.

And Kid Flash

@Cezar_TheScribe said:

DC didn't think this change through or they don't care. Changing everything and erasing all continuity is a real slap in the face of long time and loyal fans.

I agree.

@Sner2000 said:

I hate it with every fiber of my being. I do not purchase or read Teen Titans now. It went from my favorite title, to being a title I refuse to acknowledge. Just thinking about the erased history makes me start shaking with rage. But I do believe that someday, some writer will come in and write it all back together and clean up this mess DC has made.

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HushoftheWind

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Edited By HushoftheWind

I honestly think the original titans did exist as team, but i dont think they went by the name titans. With popularity of the tv show, i think the OG titans went by Young Justice, hopefully that will be established during the Death of the Family Teen Titans arc with Arsenal leading the team. Maybe Arsenal will give the new 52 titans a history lesson we all need.

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colonyofcells

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Edited By colonyofcells

For those who don't like the New 52 reboots, just wait maybe 5 years and dc might erase the history from 2011 to 2012 and everything gets erased sooner or later.

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COBRAMORPH

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Edited By COBRAMORPH

a soft reset of continuity is moronic, & is not helpful or new user friendly. You have to either get rid of it all & start over, or do nothing at all.

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Sner2000

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Edited By Sner2000

I hate it with every fiber of my being. I do not purchase or read Teen Titans now. It went from my favorite title, to being a title I refuse to acknowledge. Just thinking about the erased history makes me start shaking with rage. But I do believe that someday, some writer will come in and write it all back together and clean up this mess DC has made.

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TheReaper111

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Edited By TheReaper111

people like me who grew up with the tv show are all very pissed at this whole thing :(

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daredevil21134

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Edited By daredevil21134

@charlieboy said:

They undid some of the best parts of the DC universe.

Another reason why I don't care for DC

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colonyofcells

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Edited By colonyofcells

1.Dc erasing old history is nothing new. Once earth 1 was introduced in 1961, all the older adventures were sort of erased on earth 1 and moved to earth 2. COIE reboot also pretty much erased all the pre-1985 stories.

2. Titans have another problem in that dc made the mistake of aging the sidekicks and ending up with 2 generations of sidekicks. For post-52 Teen Titans, dc decided to keep the Bart Allen generation and erasing the Wally West generation pretty much. With the reboot of Barry to a younger age, it became difficult to keep both Bart and Wally so Wally was sacrificed and all pre-52 Titans history got erased.

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BatWatch

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Edited By BatWatch

@wh1t3b0y5t33z said:

I want to have Wally and Donna and all of the cool elements that made the Titans what they were. But I don't want them force fed to us. Give it time. Let it make sense that they come back. Don't be all "WE STEPPED THROUGH A MAGIC PORTAL CREATED BY A DRAGON, SO LETS FORM A TEAM AND KICK ASS!" That'd be awesome. But not something I wanna see in a comic book

(big laugh) That's awesome. That really is the way a lot of teams are presented these days.

It seems strange that DC is holding back these character when there is such a big demand, but you are right in that it is better to have to wait for a good story than to get a rushed piece of crap.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.

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AskaniSon295

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Edited By AskaniSon295

new beastboy looks like the son of starfire and changeling

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wh1t3b0y5t33z

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Edited By wh1t3b0y5t33z

I want to have Wally and Donna and all of the cool elements that made the Titans what they were. But I don't want them force fed to us. Give it time. Let it make sense that they come back. Don't be all "WE STEPPED THROUGH A MAGIC PORTAL CREATED BY A DRAGON, SO LETS FORM A TEAM AND KICK ASS!" That'd be awesome. But not something I wanna see in a comic book

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Agypt2020

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Edited By Agypt2020

Here we go with the stupid and dumb ass writers writing "It Did Not Happen". Like saying I have not lived my life for 46 years! If I am doing this K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupids), I would create The New Titans or the Titans, which would evolve and form the Young Justice new teen characters. The Team Titans members would be as follows: Night wing, Star fire, Raven (purified of her demonic heritage and white costume), change Wally West name (no longer Kid Flash) an original identity, change Red Arrow to Archer, and grow up Bill Baxter from kid to young adult, call him SHAZAM, and adult Cyborg. The Titans would be not like the Justice League, the latter would have their own identity, villains, and crisis etc. We know the history of these characters a new audience do not need the recollections, start the beginning of a new story.

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Cezar_TheScribe

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Edited By Cezar_TheScribe

What's so funny? >:p

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turoksonofstone

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Edited By turoksonofstone

@Apis said:

Don't call it a Re-Boot... we're murdering History!

@Cezar_TheScribe said:

DC didn't think this change through or they don't care. Changing everything and erasing all continuity is a real slap in the face of long time and loyal fans.

lol

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Cezar_TheScribe

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Edited By Cezar_TheScribe

DC didn't think this change through or they don't care. Changing everything and erasing all continuity is a real slap in the face of long time and loyal fans.

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inviskid

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Edited By inviskid

"Some characters like Batman and Green Lantern have seen very little changes to their history" HA!

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Black Lantern Mar-vell

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MY Teen Titans was Dick, Starfire, Cyborg, Raven, Donna, & Beast Boy.  In my mind THEY STILL ARE!  You shouldn't have to change history in order to be able to write good new stories.
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TheRobin

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Edited By TheRobin

I Can't Even Begin On How Stupid This Is, The Characters Had So Much Growth On This Team, To Take That All Away Takes So Much Out Of There Character Develpoment

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BatWatch

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Edited By BatWatch

@UltimateSMfan: @ComicKID777: @Project_Worm: @MadeinBangladesh: @Duo_forbidden:

Thanks you to all of you for seconding my thoughts on Teen Titans. I am going to be opening a site where I have news, reviews, and commentary on all Batman and Batman related series including Teen Titans. If you guys follow me, I'll make sure to let you know when the site is open.

In the mean time, if you want good criticism of Batman comics including Teen Titans, hop over to my review page.

Latest Teen Titans review:

http://www.comicvine.com/teen-titans-the-origin-of-wonder-girl/37-363059/user-reviews/?review_id=32622

All my reviews:

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/psychoknights/reviews/

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OmegaHans

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Edited By OmegaHans

Aw, NO!!! What are you doing guys!? Don't do that!

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mfundo

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Edited By mfundo

I love the original Teen Titans. Each team member fit so well together.

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davidcraig123

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Edited By davidcraig123

If you look in New 52 Batwoman #1 (Maybe #2 I'm not sure), Flamebird says to Kate Kane (Batwoman), that she "Was a Teen Titan. I even fought Deathstroke!" to which Kate replies, "Then it must have been one of his off days." This alone shows that either JH Williams III made a mistake, or that there was a Flamebird-starring Teen Titans team in this universe! :)

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direwolf143

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Edited By direwolf143

I have been a fan of both sets of titans the original new teen titans as well as the young justice titans. what a lot of people forget is crisis on infinite earths. DC had alot of continuity that was out of whack and difficult to explain away. people complained then. i have been around for comics since early 80's. i have seen the same with Claremont's x-men. thing people don't like is change in their childhood heroes.The New 52 gives some of us a chance to read the beginnings of heroes. Honestly how many can afford a Brave and Bold 26 first appearance of Justice League of America? Not to many. Thing is this gives readers a fresh start. I think DC has a better idea of what they are doing then say marvel who has taken our heroes and distorted them to fit their movies. With that said be a little patient.

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Cavemold

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Edited By Cavemold

wonder girl on the floor like a stripper ? really?

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Cavemold

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Edited By Cavemold

seriously , Teen titians has had one of the worst reluanches ive seen

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Lorrie

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Edited By Lorrie

I can't get into a DC where the original Teen Titans didn't exist as a team (or just plain didn't exist at all, as is the case for some of the characters). Same goes for some of the other great DC comic series and characters. A lot of those characters may still exist, but they're not really the same characters they were pre-New 52. Their histories were a big part of their appeal to me, and those histories are pretty much gone. If other people like it, that's great, but it's just not for me.

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justforthecomments

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This.... Made me so sad.... ): I was a big BB&Raven fan </3

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monitor_earthprime

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I have been collecting the Teen Titans since there first team-up in Brave and Bold, and with the DCnU I have dropped them. I only pick up 5 DC comics now. This is far less then the $200 month I used to spend. I do not like the majority of the books so why should I keep supporting DC if I am not going to read them.

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Suprman

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Edited By Suprman

The reason I, a big long-time titans fan, don't like the New 52 Titans is not entirely because of the lost continuity, although that is a part of it. I don't like this incarnation is because I don't think it's written well. The majority of characters are angsty teens solely for the purpose of being angsty. There is no reason for them to be a team. The characters are not interesting to me. Finally, Lobdell and his editors are treating their own continuity like it is a suggestion rather than an actual list of what has happened in this new universe and what hasn't (I'm looking at you Red Robin). It's just painful to read. If you like it, fine but I don't have to and I probably won't be reading this again until Lobdell is off the book and even then, whoever takes over is going to have to deal with his mess.

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Apis

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Edited By Apis

Don't call it a Re-Boot... we're murdering History!

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micangel

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Edited By micangel

Loving comics and continuity seem to go hand in hand. Continuity in a character creates the history and ethos of a work of fiction that makes a reader feel invested. Especially a longtime reader who now also has nostalgia. But honestly there really isn't a rational equation in this nor should there be when you feel passionate about something you have enjoyed and loved. For me personaly, although I owned my first comic around age 8 and picked up a comic now and then off a spinner rack at 7/11, I was 11 going on 12 when Wolfman/Perez NTT came out and this was the book that made me a fan. The first book I ever bought on subscription. As an artsy/geeky preteen I loved these over the top dramatic teenagers. The new characters were created to expand the story telling. Raven would add a mystical and occult angle; Starfire opened the sci-fi cosmic corner of DC; and Victor was the product of technological advancement while struggling to remember his heart and human side. The relationships and friendships were so well fleshed out: Victor and Garfield; Dick and Donna; DIck and Kory; Donna and Kory; Wally and Raven, etc. The characters went through some amazing arcs: Raven from issue one all the way to the first arc of the Baxter series; Robin becomes Nightwing after how many years of publication as Batman's sidekick; Wally grows out of being Kid Flash, etc. They were allowed to grow up to the point that they had their own legacy characters follow them in the form of young justice and ultimately a new teen titans. The stories were mature, intelligently plotted and sophisticated wihout needing to slap a MAX label or mature reader's advisory on the cover. The villains like Trigon, Brother Blood, Deathstroke, and others were epic. I loved the run and I miss this corner of the DC universe. Without making comment on the merits or faults of post new 52, I can only say I feel estranged from a whole universe of characters I followed for 30 years and now I don't feel much affinity for new 52. The Young Justice cartoon is/was the only DC product I am really enjoying these days.

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rav4

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Edited By rav4

@DarkShadows said:

How about Jericho? Does he still exist, is he mentioned or something?

Oh, he's over in Deathstroke right now... as a villain... bent on getting revenge on his father...

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DarkShadows

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Edited By DarkShadows

I admit that I don't really care for Geoff John's Titans, I didn't really like it and it was pretty boring to me; sorry if any one of you actually likes it. However, I am really, really saddened by the fact that Wolfman/Perez's Titans are gone. Seriously why? They made history!

I don't know what's going through their mind why the two found out that their version of the Titans is going to be erase from history. I'm pretty sure that they're disappointed.

It makes this situation even worse is that everything Raven had done and what she accomplished is now gone! How about Jericho? Does he still exist, is he mentioned or something?

I don't care what others say! Wolfman and Perez's team will always be the true Titans in my heart!

Edit: I'm sorry for the rant, this is an upsetting news. The New Teen Titans series is one of my favorite books in DC. Also, I think that not all New 52 titles are terrible, just some are.

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wowlock

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Edited By wowlock

I feel quite sad when I think about the whole ''rebooting'' the titans... Those late runs were great before the New 52 and now I can't help but feel a bit cheated that those stories are irrelevant... And frankly, I don't like the new direction that is the title going with. I was ticked off with Tim Drake's whole '' Red Robin, never robin ! '' thing but after being reminded this..and adding the characters in limbo like Wally and Donna... I feel like '' why would you do this ?! ''. Why would you rob the new readers from those great characters and their past and give them a sub-par team with a blurry 5 year past which confuse even the writers themselves.

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Beast_in_the_Shadows

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This was really what ruined the New 52 for me. I liked the characters because of what their pasts had made them and now that is almost completely gone (I'd say completely but some characters are left ambiguous enough that we can still hope)

Beast Boys past has been completely wiped out (his time with the Titans and all his history prior) Raven has no past with them (tho hopefully her pre-Titans life can be left the same aside from Trigon's new extra eyes) Cyborg could have some past with them, but it seems very unlikely and his wonderful friendship with Gar is now undone (which takes so much away from both characters) Terra was never an evil infiltrator (tho she may still betray the Ravagers down the line) Solstice got completely re-written before her creator even got to write her origin story...

It's really unfortunate considering the last volume was what got me to read actual comics instead of just getting super-heroes in movies and tv. Even sadder when you consider that the Wolfram/Perez era was what really kept DC afloat when Marvel fully established itself as a rival. The New Teen Titans was mostly the only thing that allowed DC to combat the incredible popularity of the X-men.

My only hope is that when Morrison's Multiversity kicks in, that we get one universe that is the pre-DCnU so we can see some of the stories continuing from where they left off. Maybe even a mini-series of the pre-boot titans picking up where they left off.

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usabfb

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Edited By usabfb

I had no idea that the Teen Titans were such an import facet of the DCU. Were they really loved that much?

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Omen14

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Edited By Omen14

As you can tell by my profile pic, one of my favorite Titans is Lilith Clay. You all should have seen my face when I saw her new 52 "reimagining"

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They Killed Cap!

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Edited By They Killed Cap!

I totally agree...I hate the majority of the stuff coming out of the new 52

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knightofthechronicle

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Well what about this-

Tim said Teen Titans. A few years ago an entire on going focused on grown up Teen Titans making their own team, what if, because they were so old, the members of that team decided to call themselves, well, something related to Titans, since you know the name just by itself is a little bit flashy. So maybe that led to Tim to make up that name?

Also, there is bound to be more of those members in Dick's team to show up at some point, maybe during the Teen Titans/Red Hood crossover during Death of the Family

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Outside_85

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Edited By Outside_85

@Zeeguy91: Didnt seem to confuse anyone for the last 20 years where there either was no Batgirl, Cassandra or Steph. Also...well, I would caution about overestimating Babs' media presence, she was in only a handful of BTAS episodes (not so sure about the other cartoon series, but I'd hesitate with calling her a main part of the cast) not to mention the abominable movie she appeared in as a blond. And while I do agree that little is better than nothing, it is not overwhelming so you really have to reach back to the pre KJ days...if I am not mistaken you actually have to reach all the way back to the Adam West show :S On another note, I just feel DC took away what was unique about her by effectively reducing her to yet another cape...and sadly it appears they've taken some of her more impressive intellect just so she could kick someone in the head (which Batwoman just doesn better apparently).

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Billy Batson

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Edited By Billy Batson

@mattwing87 said:

I am about done with DC! I think it was pretty obvious last year that the first Teen Titans team was eliminated when it was revealed Cybrog was going to be a founding member of the Justice League. At least I thought it was obvious.

Three cheers for Marvel's successful relaunch so far!

Successful relaunch? There's only been two real Marvel NOW! issues so far, LOL.
BB

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mattwing87

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Edited By mattwing87

I am about done with DC! I think it was pretty obvious last year that the first Teen Titans team was eliminated when it was revealed Cybrog was going to be a founding member of the Justice League. At least I thought it was obvious.

Three cheers for Marvel's successful relaunch so far!

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Zeeguy91

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@Outside_85: Difference is that Barbara actually is the classic Batgirl that non-comic readers know of. Although I didn't think it was necessary to wipe Oracle from her history, I can understand DC's motivation behind giving her back her legs. If the goal of the reboot was to draw in new readers, it would make sense to go with the Batgirl that's been in all other forms of media (from cartoons to live action shows/movies) as Batgirl. Imagine a new reader picking up a Batgirl comic expecting to see Babs, who they grew up with in the cartoons, but instead seeing Cass or even Stephanie. They'd be extremely confused.

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Ironhawk22

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What are you all talking about? Because the TT haven't been around since last august. Listen, here's the thing the fact that the NTT never existed isn't what bothers me. If the TT were well written, and had interesting stories than whatever I'd think about NOW! However they aren't the characters a bunch of walking cliche angst machines with a few exceptions to that. The thing about this whole TT dilema is it's not Lobdell's faul entirely. Sure I don't like his writing and Booths art isn't exactly my cup of tea, but the problem with the TT is Didio and gang keep tormenting them with mediocre stories. DC editorial has been trying to kill the TT for the last few years, it's not some new thing that just popped out of nowhere. Sure J.T. Krul was okay, but I want a great TT story not an ok one. My hope is DC could get either Bryan Q. Miller(Wrote a decent 3 issue arc, but a great short story in DC Halloween Special featuring the TT although the latter has only Miss Martian and Blue Beetle, his Smallville book is the best of the Superman titles imo) Fabian Nicieza, or Greg Weismen of YJ.

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darth_jones

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@htb106 said:

Also, I think the people saying that NEW 52 Teen Titans sucks just because these characters aren't there. Wally and Donna weren't in the last team and if they were just before Flashpoint they probably would've been replaced anyway.

So, what you mean to say is "New 52 sucks" not "New 52 TEEN TITANS sucks", the book is good so don't hate on it just because of these things being absent from the WHOLE UNIVERSE.

No...I think what a lot of people are saying is thtat New 52 Teent Titans sucks. Because they don't like it. And people are angry that instead of trying to write pre-existing characters that we liked, we have new and unlikable characters pretending to be the characters we knew.

This is a good article! It made me a little sad thinking about all the friends that we've lost.

RIP Teen Titans

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SUNMAN

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This hurts Dick Grayson the most, takes away a lot of what made him great. Not to mention the condensed timeline.

StarFire, Roy and Beast Boy are simply new characters, blank slates for the new Universe. Cyborg loses his Titans past but upgrades to the Justice League. Victor might have lost great characterization Wolfman and Perez established for him, but he's in a better place than the other former Titans.

Wally and Donna simply don't exist. And all the current Teen Titans are simply new characters, Tim Drake, Superboy and Cassie included.

As for Raven, going by the recent Phantom Stranger issue looks to be treading the same ground with Trigon.

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DanteTheRedKnight

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Teen Titans is the only series I hate in the New-52. They were MUUUCH better pre-52 and probably Green Arrow

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@Zeeguy91 said:

@Outside_85 said:

@kid Apollo: It would be preferable considering DC is beating us stupid with the whole 'most iconic version' that's exiled two popular Batgirls, a Wonder Girl and a Flash.

Two popular Batgirls? I can see what you're saying with Cass, but I seem to remember that the run during which Steph was Batgirl didn't seem to sell very well at all. This was actually addressed in a recent podcast. People don't seem to remember that Stephanie Brown Batgirl really wasn't all that popular. She had a small fanbase, who are now very vocal, but that's about it. I actually remember hearing that fans launched this waffles for Stephanie Brown campaign, where they sent waffles to DC. Do you know how many waffles DC received? 10. That's all...it sort of says something, doesn't it?

Also, I never really liked Wally as Flash. I preferred him as Kid Flash.

Same could be said of people moaning over Barbara getting shot, after she had fallen into a semi-retired state.

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MadeinBangladesh

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@PsychoKnights said:

I tried to read the article G-Man, but by the end, I was too ticked off by being reminded of the unnecessary changes. I've always liked the saying, "If it aint broke, don't fix it." There were a few specific things that were broken at DC before the reboot, but the reboot wiped out tons of stuff just in the name of change. Teen Titans is such an example.

so agree

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Zeeguy91

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@Outside_85 said:

@kid Apollo: It would be preferable considering DC is beating us stupid with the whole 'most iconic version' that's exiled two popular Batgirls, a Wonder Girl and a Flash.

Two popular Batgirls? I can see what you're saying with Cass, but I seem to remember that the run during which Steph was Batgirl didn't seem to sell very well at all. This was actually addressed in a recent podcast. People don't seem to remember that Stephanie Brown Batgirl really wasn't all that popular. She had a small fanbase, who are now very vocal, but that's about it. I actually remember hearing that fans launched this waffles for Stephanie Brown campaign, where they sent waffles to DC. Do you know how many waffles DC received? 10. That's all...it sort of says something, doesn't it?

Also, I never really liked Wally as Flash. I preferred him as Kid Flash.