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Does Batman Always Win? Batman vs. Daredevil

The Man Without Fear takes on The Caped Crusader! Gregg speaks his mind on who would be left standing if these two iconic heroes duked it out.

Place your bets because it's time for the hero from Hell's Kitchen to throwdown with Gotham City's protector. We all know Bruce Wayne's resources and brilliant mind makes him a more than formidable character when throwing down against a character he knows, but what if he bumps into someone he has no knowledge of and what if he isn't in Gotham to utilize his resources? That's exactly the point of this monthly segment -- to analyze how The Dark Knight would fare in a random encounter against a character from a different universe. This month, we're having Batman bump into the Man Without Fear: Daredevil.

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To make sure the segment is neutral, the matches will always be a random encounter (this means neither has knowledge on the other or prep time) and in a generic, unpopulated city setting at night (NOT Gotham). They'll start roughly 50 feet apart, have their standard gear and they will be in character. Naturally, they have the objective to defeat the other character. Just like over in the Battles Forums, the winner will be declared based on who I think will take the most victories in this scenario if it played out 10 times with these settings. Additionally, it's worth noting that this segment is treating all Pre-New 52 Batman feats as canon (New Earth, of course).

Will Daredevil's agility and reflexes lead him to victory... or will Batman take the win? Read on to find out what I think!

Fighting Skill

Both of these characters have the skill to humiliate a staggering amount of humans in real life. That said, one clearly has more knowledge than the other. Daredevil underwent intense training and has a unique style which draws from boxing, ninjitsu, judo and much more. It's an incredibly effective method, allowing him to hang with (to some degree) talented characters such as Iron Fist, Punisher, Captain America and Taskmaster. Additionally, he has an advanced knowledge on pressure points. This precise set of attacks has reduced Hammerhead to tears, and allowed him to take down powerhouses like Absorbing Man and Mr. Hyde. He might not be a master of every style, but decades of comics with his encounters have proven that his mesh of various styles absolutely works.

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While Daredevil has gone toe-to-toe with some of the best Marvel has to offer, I personally do not believe he has what it takes to win a firm majority over some of the more fordmiable characters listed above. In this case, Daredevil is now going against one of the best from the DC universe. Now, Batman clearly isn't the best in hand-to-hand in his world, but the man is a master of 127 different forms and, just like Daredevil, has decades of encounters proving why he's one of the best. It's fair to say Batman knows pretty much everything Murdock does and then some. Batman has more knowledge in this regard, and while both have hugely impressive feats (Matt giving Danny a good fight, Bruce hanging with Lady Shiva), I'm giving Wayne the edge in this regard due to a wealthier amount of knowledge and moves at his disposal. That said, it's by no means a landslide in this regard -- not at all, in fact. I firmly believe Matt absolutely has what it takes to give Bruce an excellent hand-to-hand encounter, just not take the victory most of the time.

Edge: Batman

Equipment/Powers

This boils down to Batman's gear versus Daredevil's radar. As always discussed in this segment, Batman's gear is a ginormous factor. While smoke pellets and batarangs would prove ineffective here, just about everything else can be a game changer if it connects. Electric attacks, cyro pellets, gas... all of these can hinder Murdock and leave him open for a solid strike to the noggin. Although, what could spell particularly big trouble for Marvel's hero is if Batman decides to utilize a sonic device. As you likely know, that's a key weakness for Murdock and using that could drop Matt's defense and then it's game over, man! Game over!

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Yes, Batman's cowl and belt is packing tons of tech, but Daredevil's radar is a key factor as well. Not only will it allow him to see through smoke or dance around batarangs with ease, it'll let him keep track of the Dark Knight -- and that's huge if Wayne tries to focus on stealth. As for why Murdock can evade batarangs with ease, it's because his radar has enhanced his senses and the guy has become a regular bullet timer. Not only can he dance around gunfire, he's also swatted away bullets on numerous occasions. His superb agility and reflexes compliment his fighting style very well, making him a tough combatant for almost any street leveler. However, the variety at Batman's disposal is something that cannot be overlooked, especially when one option can almost immediately shutdown the match.

Edge: Batman

Mentality

Look, I think we can be blunt with this one. Matt's certainly an intelligent dude and he's definitely done some out of the box tactics with his enemies (distracting Bullseye with a decoy in DD #181, for example), but he's simply not Bruce's equal when it comes to being a tactician or raw intellect. Batman's often considered the world's greatest detective for a reason, folks.

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While I don't acknowledge most crossovers as canon (unless otherwise stated, of course), it is worth noting that after some observation, Batman was able to detect that Daredevil's other senses are heightened base on subtle head movements and his flaring nostrils. Now, I'm not saying that'll happen every time or even most of the time, but in the event the Detective can find that out, it's safe to say he'll test the theory out with a sonic to end their little bout. Both are absolutely smart fighters, but I can say without any reservation that Batman takes it here.

Edge: Batman

Physicals

People tend to underrate The Man Without Fear's physicals because he's outclassed by Captain America in this regard (who is enhanced human, as stated by Brubaker). However, the agile hero is no slouch in this regard. He's swung around a 400 lbs barbell like a bo-staff and even tipped over an occupied limo.

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While Batman has superior strength feats (like temporarily holding up a 1,000 lbs wall) and even endurance feats (see 'Knightfall'), it is Daredevil's reflexes which make me inclined to give him the nod in this regard. As stated above in Equipment/Powers, Daredevil's radar means his reflexes are fast enough to block and even deflect bullets. He's done this on plenty of occasions and often at the very last second. This, in combination with his topnotch agility, means I'm cool with giving him a small nod here. Yes, Batman does indeed have him bested in raw strength and endurance (not to mention he has peak human agility/reflexes, too), but it is DD's reflexes that greatly benefit his combat capabilities, after all.

Edge: Daredevil

Verdict

If you've been reading along in the feature, then my answer should be pretty obvious by now. While Daredevil is undoubtedly skilled and could maybe take advantage with a solid ricochet billy club toss or two, I can say with complete confidence that Batman should take a majority in this scenario. It'll be a hand-to-hand brawl worth paying to see, but at the end of the day, Batman is more indeed skilled and has more weaponry at his disposal to turn the tide. In the end, I think Batman wins via knockout 8/10. The Dark Knight takes a heavy majority, but Daredevil definitely goes down swinging and makes it quite entertaining.

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Want more Batman battles?

Daredevil was selected due to overwhelming demand to see the character used in this segment. Next month, though, I'm going to be selfish and use a character (or characters) I've wanted to include for quite some time. In the meantime, what do you think of this one? Do you agree or disagree with the outcome? Speak your mind below!

Gregg Katzman is a freelance writer for Comic Vine and IGN Entertainment. This is the part where he shamelessly plugs his Google+ and Twitter page in hopes of getting a new follower or two.

263 Comments

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cleo_x

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Of course he does, kick his red ass.

Sorry, Murdock, not this time and in this world

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Sponge_Bob

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Bryce_Bryce

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@detective38: I think all the allies will join in (psst... electra could stab the **** out of robin and bat-girl)

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Grayzone

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Edited By Grayzone

Agreed, Batman should win this fight 9 times out of 10.

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Lord_Elfstone

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@azza04: Agreed. Real world Batman most likely would only have near expert skill... real world Murdoch just woke up in the ICU though... and he never saw it coming ;-)

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batgirl_21

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@zeeguy91: yeah batman really should win this battle between daredevil. and if he dont then that is just really sad and embrassing.

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Bezza

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If this is Batman v DD with Batman using gear, its gotta be Batman. If it was just a H2H fight with Batman not using gadgets or a fancy suit, would be much tighter...too many people seriously under-estimate DD.

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MasterKungFu

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Edited By MasterKungFu

doubting the bat in the 127 MA again?

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azza04

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@lord_elfstone: Yeah, obviously it's a comic book world rules but it's my understanding that it takes years for a person to master a form of fighting. It's also kind of unnecessary. I follow mixed martial arts and most of the best fighters are just training to a high level in wrestling, jiu jitsu, judo, boxing, kickboxing/muay thai/karate/takwando.

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TheGrayGhost

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@azza04: He gave Cass a DVD that showed him performing the " basics" of 127 styles starting with aikido and ending with yaw-yan.

Tha being said, I neither agree with the verdict here, or Batman knowing more MA than Daredevil. If anything Matt is somewhat more skilled, based on feats

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Lord_Elfstone

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@azza04: I understand the skepticism on that one.. seems improbable... but its more improbable than that. He mastered more than 150 styles, 127 were deadly. let's not forget though most martial arts at there core are similar thus mastering 1 increases the likelihood of mastering similar styles and so on and so forth

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azza04

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Batman mastered 127 different forms of combat? I'd buy that he was familiar with them but a master....I doubt it

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Lord_Elfstone

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Edited By Lord_Elfstone

I know im way late on this. I agree with your verdict yet I feel you over estimate the amount of time before Batman realizes D.D. is blind and relying on other senses. Let us not forget Bruce is no stranger to fighting blind himself. As for your statement In the intro about a first encounter with someone from another universe I can only say ALL Access #3.

This is the first article of yours I have read... I will definitely be reading more. Thanks:-)

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k4tzm4n

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k4tzm4n  Moderator

@k4tzm4n: You hush up. Batman has a spotless record in the 'Does Batman Always Win?' segments...right? -.-

*Batman wins*

"POPULARITY!"

*Batman loses*

"HATER!"

I'm just glad most people were apparently able to enjoy the discussions.

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BatmanWinsBecauseWhyNot

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Agreed

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GraniteSoldier

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@k4tzm4n: You hush up. Batman has a spotless record in the 'Does Batman Always Win?' segments...right? -.-

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k4tzm4n

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k4tzm4n  Moderator

@kramotz: First and foremost, if you'd like for anyone to actually take your opinion into consideration, you may not want to insult everyone who disagrees. Secondly, popularity has nothing to do with the verdict. What does happen to affect the verdict is tactics, gear, skill, and physicals. If you disagree with my verdict, so be it; you're allowed to. But claiming it's due to popularity is blatantly false.

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Kramotz

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Edited By Kramotz

You all are blubbering morons. Daredevil wins due to being a vastly more consistent character than Batman, and superior in his base. This analysis is asinine anyway, and is heavily based on fanboyism and popular opinion, rather than an objective viewpoint. @k4tzm4n was a mod here, so I'm sure he knows how many Batman fanboys dwell the Vine. Making an abysmal analysis of Batman vs Daredevil and concluding that the former would be the victor was a choice made only to appease the many Batman fanboys on the forums. If I was a mod, I wouldn't have made an objective and well-formed analysis either, because, ya' know, popular opinion > logic.

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leopryor

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I pretty much agree with this post. Batman's intellect and gadgets does give him the edge over DD.

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J_Jammer

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Edited By J_Jammer

Whatever. I bet you also think Batman can win against Superman. Batman isn't that good to beat Daredevil. Period. He has to prep. Daredevil doesn't need to.

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Frisky4

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My friend and I had a little disagreement on this, so I decided to bump it.

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darklord_apoc

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You should make a Batman vs Shredder!!

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dillanlynn

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I'm just going to go ahead and dive in, so if feelings are hurt or nerd battles pursue, i apologize.

I read over this twice. I loved the information given and after reading only what you included I would be forced to agree with your outcome. Now here comes the however;

Being a huge fan of daredevil and a smaller but still big fan of batman, I would like to include some more information. I have read most of the early daredevils starting from the first continuing on to many others even a good bit of the alternate universe editions.

Staying on track with just the normal, basic daredevil and following my classy nerd ways, here's some input I feel should have been included before the decision.

Daredevils senses vs bat mans resources:

Bat man would greatly increase his chances with a sonic emitter, and some of his weapons would be very handy, an example being his many variations of batarangs, even if direct contact is made he can alter the battle field. A good exampl being his exploding batarangs.

Daredevil on the other hand has a few useful tools himself, but none matching the tech ole brucey bolsters. His senses like stated are his main tool like stated above, but I can see his hearing is what was focused on mainly. You forget that On many occasions his hearing was rendered useless and he had to rely on sense of feel as well as his sense of smell. Even without his hearing he has dodged bullets, thrown weapons and located his enemies as well as beaten them to a pulp just by the vibrations he feels around him. Even his sense of smell is so superb that he has relied on it to find explosives, weapons, and yet again enemies and emerged victorious. His sense of hearing is amazing, and he relies on it more than most, but even without it batman would still have a very hard time landing more than a few blows.

Combat:

Batman does know many forms of martial arts, a lot more than daredevil. That being said, bat man would seem to have the upper hand, yet you have to remember that batman relies on his basic senses to carry out his martial arts where as daredevil uses a far more in depth field of senses to use his smaller portion of martial arts.

Where batman can read body signals how ever slight and adjust his fighting style, daredevil is able to hear an actual heartbeat, if his strike was blocked by batman he would feel the slightest motion on contact indicating how batman would strike next. Even if daredevils knowledge of forms and styles is less than batmans, how own style is perfected to fight an adversary of any type where as batman just knows many types that he can apply in different situations.

Tactics:

Batman does beat the infamous man with no fear in strategy, intelligence and basic combat tactics, but daredevil is literally a master of allowing one persons tactics become his own.

Where batman would be relying on thought process, which beats most in just using a basic instinct, I feel daredevils instincts as a fighter, and his lack of fear and hesitation be an advantage over batmans intelligence. Where batman would hesitate trying to break a situation down before acting, daredevil would act and allow his instincts and intelligence control the flow.

I love this original post, but with my added input, I honestly believe it would always come to a draw as the worst outcome, or daredevil being victorious as the better.

This is my hones and unbiased oppinion.

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spiderman-over-batman

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I have to disagree. Daredevil can easily go toe to toe with Captain America, and Matt regularly bullet times. Batman's strength and skill are absolutely useless here, since Matt isn't going to let Bruce touch him given how fast Matt is. Plus, Matt's super senses (super hearing and radar sense specifically) would allow him to effectively predict Batman's moves because he has complete 360 degree angle on Batman's entire body. Stealth would make things worse for Batman, since Daredevil would always see where he is

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Bat_Girl_CC

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Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

#

@thebourneposter said:
@bat_girl_cc said:

Yeah i do, actually just a few days ago, i had a debate with many Iron Fist fans, on which we were both agreeing that Iron Fist would take a majority over Shiva as long as he used his Chi-amps, if not, he would lose, due to Lady Shiva being more skilled, which i proved on that thread.

Vastly more skilled? More skilled perhaps, but vastly, no way.

Also, what you said makes no sense...that's like me saying that because Cassandra Cain has a special abillity that alows her to know what her opponents will do way before they actually do anything, and thus, making her capable of beating pretty much everyone in Hand-to-Hand, than she's the most skilled of them all...it's not like that!...Martial arts skill is one thing...special abillities, as well as super-powers, are other different things.

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Daredevil can almost match her in h2h, plus he is much faster and more agile.

You're right, they aren't AS impressive, they are MORE impressive!...actually you just said it yourself...Cass has out-paced a bullet before!...how can someone like D.D reacting fast enough to a bullet's speed, be considered more impressive than someone like Cass that has actually proved to be faster than one?

So has Daredevil. A shot has been fired at his back, and after it was fired, he was able to turn around and swing his arm to knock it away. So his reflexes are easily fast enough to do so, and he actually swung his arm with the precision and speed to knock a bullet out of the air after it is fired.

Also, has you mentioned, D.D reacted to a sniper-bullet, ten feet away...which means, that he had space and time to perform his feat...now look at this:

You don't seem to understand. The bullet was heading towards Spider-Man. It was like a foot away from his head, and Daredevil covered ten feet to intercept it before it hit him. That is much more impressive than moving your head out of the way.

Cass had dodged a sniper-bullet, by only moving her head out of the bullet's way, when the projectil was just a few inches from her face, also unlike D.D's feat, this feat, besides being more impressive, it's also standard for Cass, since in the scan above, you can see her remembering doing the same thing, as a child, as part of her training under David Cain.

See above. Also, combat speed is more important than speed against projectiles. Combat speed like matching Wolverine, Venom, Spider-Man, ect.

Nightwing has been stated as being the most agile peak-human in the DC Universe, and Lady Shiva, still oneshotted him.

Not as agile as Daredevil. I've seen most of Nightwing's agility feats, I don't think they measure up.

Not to mention, that Cassandra Cain has danced around Nightwing a few times, and she has never been able to do the same against Lady Shiva...why?...because while being more agile, gives you a advantage over your opponent, it's worthless, if you're not as fast as your opponent is.

It's not worthless if your opponent is faster, but in this case DD is.

I don't see why Lady Shiva wouldn't be able to replycate that feat, also isn't Ennis a writter that has written Wolverine horribly, and that also hates Wolverine's character, and that has even admitted it in public?

Yeah, that is why I mentioned it was written by Dennis. And Shiva wouldn't be able to replicate it because she hasn't shown that level of nerve strikes. But Enemy of The State still stands.

I disagree with it?...everyone disagree's with it!...minus 3 people that i know on this entire site...i disagree with it because it was massive PIS...not only that fight, but every fight that took place in that arc, in favor of Batman and Superman, everyone knows that, also Jeph Loeb is a writter that is famous for his fan-service...there's even a bunch of threads about it, here on ComicVine:

1) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/loeb-force-pis-moments-559071/

2) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/question-why-do-people-hate-jeph-loeb-so-much-624206/

3) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/what-is-loeb-force-419671/

You didn't post any specific disagreements with that feat....and honestly, I'm done debating it. It isn't up for debate, it happened in a comic published by DC, and isn't nearly outlandish enough to be classed as PIS. Sorry, I know it hurts.

?...i still, don't see where's your doubt...Bronze Tiger stated that Shiva was unbeatable, which means that she had never lost, to his knowledge, also he told Cassandra, that when Shiva lost, he knew, that Cass was the one that did it...also, the point here, is that Lady Shiva almost defeated the entire league of assassins together at the same time, alone...as a teenager, which skill-wise, is more impressive, than anything that D.D has ever done.

But...she isn't unbeatable....because she's been beaten several times. And skill wise, I actually disagree. Daredevil has wrecked Captain America, Beast, and Hercules at the same time, primarily using skill.

Yes, but he has also been defeated by him! actually, in the issue where Batman beats Prometheus, Prometheus stated it, by saying this: " last time, i beat you senseless, just to show you that i can "...Anyway, it's a high-end showing for Batman, just like Lady Shiva stomping David Cain on his prime, as a teenager, and while being pregnant...the same David Cain that stallemated Batman as a old man.

I know. But when Batman was defeated, Prometheus was using hypnotic strobe lights, powerful enough to paralyze Huntress, and neural chaff, which breaks down ones concentration and won't let them think straight. It was powerful bough to prevent Kyle Rayner from using his green lantern ring.

He wasn't taking her seriously, in the first moves...he quickly realized his mistake soon after, by even stating that he saw her, as his equal in Hand-to-Hand.

Yeah, they were pretty even. But that was a long time ago, and Batman did end up winning that fight because of outside interference, so we don't know what would have happened.

Agreed, they were evenly matched, which is how a fight between them, should always be, and not a ridiculous oneshot stomp like in Batman/Superman Public Enemies.

That is your opinion. But that is not how a writer for DC comics saw it. The feat stands, and don't try to compete out to other PIS feats like Spider-Man vs Fire Lord, they are completely different.

Bronze Tiger is crazy good, also holding his own against someone who's holding back, it's a unquantifiable feat.

Deathstroke wasn't really holding back.

Lady Shiva is NOW leagues more skilled than when she was, back in the day, that she toke on entire league...since she learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year...Shiva herself stated that her younger self from one year before, is out-classed, by her most recent self...also Shiva is not leagues more skilled than Batman, she's more skilled than him, though she's not much more skilled than him, since Batman is also a TOP tier in skill...he has been stated as being in the TOP 10, and he has the feats to back it up, just like Lady Shiva has the feats to back her up as the number 1 in skill, just below Karate Kid, who's from the future...also, Batman has also defeated David Cain, though not as easly as Lady Shiva did...which proves what i'm saying, Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman, though, she's not leagues above him.

I disagree, but that isn't the debate we are having here.

Also, as i told you before, the Bronze Tiger that stallemated Batman, was Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger, it was a different version of Bronze Tiger, than the one that Lady Shiva oneshotted on panel, as a teenager.

I brought that up once, I was talking about how Cain has stalemated Batman off panel, and Bronze Tiger beating Deathstroke.

I wouldn't have said it better myself...it's some cool fanart.

It was actually a little joke i was making, since it took place in an official comic published by DC.

I never said that it has not happened...also, thanks for your opinion, which, if you go back to my first post, you'll see that, that was actually all i wantted to know.

Well, I'm giving it to you, I said you wouldn't like it.

Cassandra Cain has stallemated Deathstroke twice! and in their first encounter, Slade didn't even landed one single hit on her, despite going all out, and he even had to blown up the entire building, to avoid being defeated, because he was losing...and Lady Shiva has holded her own, against Cassandra Cain, in Hand-to-Hand, 3 times.

I was talking about Cap, who could stalemate Deathstroke.

Exactly!...Venom is above street-level, they aren't even on the same tier...which means that D.D holding his own against him, it's PIS/WIS.

That doesn't automatically mean that at all. Like I've said, it is completely consistent with Daredevil's other feats. It seems to be routine for you to dismiss any feat that doesn't support your stance in an argument.

Not really, you said that D.D beat those Yakuzas, in a couple of minutes, and i posted scans of Cass taking out, 10 guys or more, in a few seconds...it's a matter of proportion...also, Cass has performed a similar feat, i just don't have the scans here to post it.

He beat 100 Yakuza in less than three minutes, meaning at the longest he took down a Yakuza every 1.8 seconds. Keep in mind 50 were on MGH.

What feats have those Yakuzas performed?...none! they are featless cannon-fodder...they were only there in order to make D.D look good...and the same goes for those mooks that Cass effortlessy toke out.

Well, Iron Patriot on MGH, had bullets bouncing off of his skin. 50 of those Yakuza were on it.

Yeah, she is...defeated and killed Richard Dragon...defeated Connor Hawke...holded her own against Cassandra Cain 3 times!...stallemated Batman...stomped David Cain...proved to be superior to Chesire in Hand-to-Hand, even despite being previously poisoned...holded her own against Robin (Tim Drake) which at the time was amped by a speed-enhancing-drugg, that according to himself, allowed him, to see everything else in slow motion, etc.

None of those really compare, and no, she didn't hold her own against Tim, he was hesitant at first, then he easily stomped her.

Venom is above street-level, Spider-Man is barely street-level...D.D holding his own against any of them has to be considered PIS/WIS, also, i find it hard to belive in their consistency...unless they hold back on him for some reason, or something else...those fights, have to have some type of special context.

No it doesn't. I know you want it to be since it's better than any feat you could possibly post for Shiva, but it isn't. I think pretty much the reason Batman beats Daredevil is because of his tech. Otherwise, I would be much less confident.

" Vastly more skilled? More skilled perhaps, but vastly, no way. "

Lady Shiva is more knowledgeable on martial arts (she knows all fighting forms):

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She learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year:

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which is basically, 1 per month...that's 120 in 10 years...and in 20 years, it's 240...and Shiva started training as little child, and she started her quest to become Lady Shiva, as a teenager.

She has also better skill feats, Chi-Danny doesn't really count, because Like Tim Drake beating Shiva proved, you don't have to be crazy skilled to beat a grandmaster, if your stats are so much higher than your opponent's...it's like Wonder Woman being very skilled, but at the same time being much more powerful than a street-leveler...her skill feats can't be proved as being such, due to her stats...the same goes for Chi-Danny...and Danny without his Chi has no feats to put him on Lady Shiva's level...he defeated Sabertooth twice, but in both fights, it was stated on panel, that Sabertooth was only using raw strengh, and that he was no martial arts skill...though Sabertooth is indeed skilled to a degree, the fact is, he wasn't using any on his fights against Danny, which makes Danny's wins against him, not very impressive.

" That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Daredevil can almost match her in h2h, plus he is much faster and more agile. "

"almost" is unquantifiable...he either has, either the skill set, or the skill-feats, to put him on Lady Shiva's league, or he doesn't...and without PIS/WIS, he doesn't.

Also as i already explained he's not much faster than Shiva, he's not even faster than her at all!

Yeah, he's more agile, there's no point in continuing to bring that up, since we both already agreed on that.

" So has Daredevil. A shot has been fired at his back, and after it was fired, he was able to turn around and swing his arm to knock it away. So his reflexes are easily fast enough to do so, and he actually swung his arm with the precision and speed to knock a bullet out of the air after it is fired. "

That's very impressive, but i don't see how that is more impressive than Cass dodging multiple bullets after they've been fired, one after another, in sequence:

From right, to left:

In the last scan, you can see the bullet's literally "flying" in her direction...that's bullet-timing!...and yeah, i know, D.D is also a bullet-timer, though since Lady Shiva has consistently keept up with Cassandra's speed, i don't since how D.D can be possibly faster than her...Shiva's raw speed, coupled with her skill VS D.D's raw speed, coupled with his agillity, makes their combat speed just about the same, IMO.

" You don't seem to understand. The bullet was heading towards Spider-Man. It was like a foot away from his head, and Daredevil covered ten feet to intercept it before it hit him. That is much more impressive than moving your head out of the way. "

Very impressive, but Cass has out-paced a bullet on panel, by jumping in the shooter's direction, after the bullet was fired, and taking him out, while the bullet was still just about half away from when she jumped:

From left, to right:

Now, that i'm thinking about it, i'm pretty sure, that we have been through this before, and we had to agree to disagree, regarding which one's are more impressive...anyway, to me it's obvious, which one's more impressive...out-pacing a bullet >>>>>>>> reacting to a bullet...in other words, proving to be faster than a bullet >>>>>>>>reacting to a bullet's speed.

" See above. Also, combat speed is more important than speed against projectiles. Combat speed like matching Wolverine, Venom, Spider-Man, ect. "

I agree, and as i said before, Lady Shiva has keept up in combat, with people with similar speed feats to D.D's, if not even more impressive than his.

Also, matching Wolverine is very impressive, though, i've seen many people in the Marvel Universe doing the same, many people that would lose a majority to Shiva...also, matching Venom and Spider-Man is PIS/WIS, and i already explained you, why...you apparently, just refuse to accept it...so, i think that it's better if we just agree to disagree in some points, otherwise, we're gonna be here forever, saying: "yes, it is"..."no, it isn't"..."yes, it is"..."no, it isn't"...

" Not as agile as Daredevil. I've seen most of Nightwing's agility feats, I don't think they measure up. "

Thei're pretty close IMO, though yeag, D.D is more agile...but then again, Grayson has no radar-sense.

Anyway, i was just using Nightwing as a exemple, to show you that being more agile, though useful in combat, by itself, doesn't give you the win.

" It's not worthless if your opponent is faster, but in this case DD is. "

That's up for you to prove, and so far, you haven't...though, we've been through this before, and we had to agree to disagree...i still think Cass is faster than D.D...and Shiva and D.D should be just about equals in speed, anyway, i can see that you won't agree, so we will have to agree to disagree, eventually.

" Yeah, that is why I mentioned it was written by Dennis. And Shiva wouldn't be able to replicate it because she hasn't shown that level of nerve strikes. But Enemy of The State still stands. "

Agreed.

Yeah, she has.

Agreed, though, i don't see why Shiva wouldn't be able to do the same.

" You didn't post any specific disagreements with that feat....and honestly, I'm done debating it. It isn't up for debate, it happened in a comic published by DC, and isn't nearly outlandish enough to be classed as PIS. Sorry, I know it hurts. "

You mean, besides, that going against what we know about both characters, + the whole arc being full of PIS/WIS, and Jeph loeb, being a writter famous, for his fan-service?...which there's even a bunch of threads made her on comic vine about it, which i just posted on my last reply?...and you, apparently ignored?

And no, it doesn't hurt at all...because i (and everyone else who's not biased) knows that feats was PIS/WIS as was the entire story arc...what hurts, is knowing that i'm here wasting my time trying to explain this to you, since because i know that you don't want to accept it.

" But...she isn't unbeatable....because she's been beaten several times. And skill wise, I actually disagree. Daredevil has wrecked Captain America, Beast, and Hercules at the same time, primarily using skill. "

I never said she is...i named one feat, posted scans proving it, and you saw a claim in there, which you used to dodge the fact that D.D hasn't done anything even close, to being as impressive as that feat.

Also i'm gonna need either scans or context for that feat.

" I know. But when Batman was defeated, Prometheus was using hypnotic strobe lights, powerful enough to paralyze Huntress, and neural chaff, which breaks down ones concentration and won't let them think straight. It was powerful bough to prevent Kyle Rayner from using his green lantern ring. "

Exactly, the fact that Prometheus solo'ed the JLA, should tell you something...anyway, Lady Shiva never even fought the real Prometheus, she fought a guy called Chad Graham, in the Birds of Prey series, who was using Prometheus helmet, so we can't really compare, since they fought different opponents, who act differently, seeing as how the real Prometheus relies more on his tech, while Chad, relies more on the skill provided by the helmet.

Not to mention, that Shiva losing to Chad was a PIS/WIS showing altogether, since Chad oneshotted Shiva in 3 panels and then had trouble against Huntress and Lady Balckhawke.

" Yeah, they were pretty even. But that was a long time ago, and Batman did end up winning that fight because of outside interference, so we don't know what would have happened. "

The fact that we don't know what would have happened if Robin hadn't interfeared, doesn't change the fact that Batman and Shiva, were stallemating prior to Robin's interfearence.

" That is your opinion. But that is not how a writer for DC comics saw it. The feat stands, and don't try to compete out to other PIS feats like Spider-Man vs Fire Lord, they are completely different. "

That DC comics writter in question, is called "Jeph Loeb" who's famous for his fan-service...there's your answer...and i have posted 3 links to 3 different threads made here on the vine about it, which you ignored.

PIS it's PIS.

" Deathstroke wasn't really holding back. "

Yeah, he was...at first Slade was just trying to talk to him, Bronze Tiger was the only one actually trying there...i'll see if i can find the scans.

Here:

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Bronze Tiger landed a few hits, and that was it...Slade wasn't even going all out, so yeah...also, Deadshot was the one that "defeated" him...if Deadshot didn't appeared, Slade would either escape, or beat Bronze Tiger.

" I brought that up once, I was talking about how Cain has stalemated Batman off panel, and Bronze Tiger beating Deathstroke. "

Bronze Tiger didn't defeated Slade, Deadshot did...Bronze Tiger holded his own against a holding back D.S...it's still impressive, though, the point you were making early, is now a mute point.

" It was actually a little joke i was making, since it took place in an official comic published by DC. "

So what?...do you want me to make a list with every major PIS/WIS instance ever made in DC comics?...it would take me like, over a year making that post, but it can be done.

" Well, I'm giving it to you, I said you wouldn't like it. "

Thanks anyway, though i can tell that you're biased towards D.D which may, or may not, cloud your judgement.

" I was talking about Cap, who could stalemate Deathstroke. "

Lol, you're very good at making assumptions...D.D beating Shiva...D.D being faster than Cass...Cap stallemating Slade...but most of your assumptions are wrong, because feats say that they are wrong...you should stick for what you know, and not what you would like it to be.

" That doesn't automatically mean that at all. Like I've said, it is completely consistent with Daredevil's other feats. "

Of course it does! that's one of the best ways, we have to tell if a feat it's PIS/WIS or not...also, i doubt that stallemating Spider-Man and /or Venom is consistent for D.D unless there's some special context behind it, that you're leaving behind, when you mention those feats.

" It seems to be routine for you to dismiss any feat that doesn't support your stance in an argument. "

Lmao! you did just that, 2 post's ago, when you implyed that Lady Shiva taking on the entire league of assassins together at the same time, as a teenager, was a PIS showing...and you did it, just because skill-wise, D.D has never done anything on pair with it, also a character's back-story, is what you first know about that character, what happens later, may or may not, be considered PIS depending on consistency, context, etc.

" He beat 100 Yakuza in less than three minutes, meaning at the longest he took down a Yakuza every 1.8 seconds. Keep in mind 50 were on MGH. "

Cass has performed so many feats like that.

Here are some of them:

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Takes out 50 drugged people, in a few seconds, while using a special technique "The Falling Leaf" which only 3 people know how to use.

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Which means that, in the time that it took D.D to take out 1 Yakuza, Cass took out 50 people...quite a bit faster...but then again, like i said before...it's a fodder-feat.

" Well, Iron Patriot on MGH, had bullets bouncing off of his skin. 50 of those Yakuza were on it. "

Here you have Cass, sending a huge bullet-proof guy, flying across the room, with force enough to create a small crater on the brick wall behind him:

From right, to left:

Cass has perfomed much of the same feats that D.D has, and she has some even better, and Shiva has held her own in combat against Cass 3 times!...also Cass has an advantage over Shiva (and over everyone else for that matter) that D.D doens't have...Body-Reading...and not just some generic move-reading...her pre-cog goes deep...much deeper than Shiva's...and yeah, i know about D.D's radar-sense, but the 2 are quite different, and in combat, Body-Reading is much more useful than radar-sense, since Cass can know what her opponents will do, way before they actually do anything, by Reading their muscles, their bones, etc...she can even tell what they are thinking/feeling...D.D's pre-cog, though very good, is not going to help in a fight against Lady Shiva.

" None of those really compare, and no, she didn't hold her own against Tim, he was hesitant at first, then he easily stomped her. "

Face it dude! out-side of some PIS/WIS showings, D.D has nowhere near Lady Shiva's skill-feats.

That is irrelevant, Tim was already "amped", and Lady Shiva was still holding her own:

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Shiva blocked 11 punch attempts in the first panel (please note, that Tim's fist's are moving as blur's)

" No it doesn't. I know you want it to be since it's better than any feat you could possibly post for Shiva, but it isn't.

Nope, it's PIS because a character holding is own against a character that is not even in the same tier...well, it's WIS = (Writter Induced Stupidity) in the weakest character's favor.

Wrong again...Lady Shiva, has defeated the Shadow Dragon in Hand-to-Hand combat, someone who Superman stated as being faster than himself!...so, if i didn't excluded this feat as WIS, then, all i would have to do, is come here, and point out that D.D gets oneshotted at the speed of light...the end.

This is why it's important, to see if a feat it's PIS/WIS or not.

" I think pretty much the reason Batman beats Daredevil is because of his tech. Otherwise, I would be much less confident.

Batman beats D.D, with or without Gear.

The difference is, with Gear, Batman would beat D.D easly...without it, Batman would have to work hard for the win, but he would do it, about 6/10 times.

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Yeah i do, actually just a few days ago, i had a debate with many Iron Fist fans, on which we were both agreeing that Iron Fist would take a majority over Shiva as long as he used his Chi-amps, if not, he would lose, due to Lady Shiva being more skilled, which i proved on that thread.

Vastly more skilled? More skilled perhaps, but vastly, no way.

Also, what you said makes no sense...that's like me saying that because Cassandra Cain has a special abillity that alows her to know what her opponents will do way before they actually do anything, and thus, making her capable of beating pretty much everyone in Hand-to-Hand, than she's the most skilled of them all...it's not like that!...Martial arts skill is one thing...special abillities, as well as super-powers, are other different things.

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying that Daredevil can almost match her in h2h, plus he is much faster and more agile.

You're right, they aren't AS impressive, they are MORE impressive!...actually you just said it yourself...Cass has out-paced a bullet before!...how can someone like D.D reacting fast enough to a bullet's speed, be considered more impressive than someone like Cass that has actually proved to be faster than one?

So has Daredevil. A shot has been fired at his back, and after it was fired, he was able to turn around and swing his arm to knock it away. So his reflexes are easily fast enough to do so, and he actually swung his arm with the precision and speed to knock a bullet out of the air after it is fired.

Also, has you mentioned, D.D reacted to a sniper-bullet, ten feet away...which means, that he had space and time to perform his feat...now look at this:

You don't seem to understand. The bullet was heading towards Spider-Man. It was like a foot away from his head, and Daredevil covered ten feet to intercept it before it hit him. That is much more impressive than moving your head out of the way.

Cass had dodged a sniper-bullet, by only moving her head out of the bullet's way, when the projectil was just a few inches from her face, also unlike D.D's feat, this feat, besides being more impressive, it's also standard for Cass, since in the scan above, you can see her remembering doing the same thing, as a child, as part of her training under David Cain.

See above. Also, combat speed is more important than speed against projectiles. Combat speed like matching Wolverine, Venom, Spider-Man, ect.

Nightwing has been stated as being the most agile peak-human in the DC Universe, and Lady Shiva, still oneshotted him.

Not as agile as Daredevil. I've seen most of Nightwing's agility feats, I don't think they measure up.

Not to mention, that Cassandra Cain has danced around Nightwing a few times, and she has never been able to do the same against Lady Shiva...why?...because while being more agile, gives you a advantage over your opponent, it's worthless, if you're not as fast as your opponent is.

It's not worthless if your opponent is faster, but in this case DD is.

I don't see why Lady Shiva wouldn't be able to replycate that feat, also isn't Ennis a writter that has written Wolverine horribly, and that also hates Wolverine's character, and that has even admitted it in public?

Yeah, that is why I mentioned it was written by Dennis. And Shiva wouldn't be able to replicate it because she hasn't shown that level of nerve strikes. But Enemy of The State still stands.

I disagree with it?...everyone disagree's with it!...minus 3 people that i know on this entire site...i disagree with it because it was massive PIS...not only that fight, but every fight that took place in that arc, in favor of Batman and Superman, everyone knows that, also Jeph Loeb is a writter that is famous for his fan-service...there's even a bunch of threads about it, here on ComicVine:

1) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/loeb-force-pis-moments-559071/

2) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/question-why-do-people-hate-jeph-loeb-so-much-624206/

3) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/what-is-loeb-force-419671/

You didn't post any specific disagreements with that feat....and honestly, I'm done debating it. It isn't up for debate, it happened in a comic published by DC, and isn't nearly outlandish enough to be classed as PIS. Sorry, I know it hurts.

?...i still, don't see where's your doubt...Bronze Tiger stated that Shiva was unbeatable, which means that she had never lost, to his knowledge, also he told Cassandra, that when Shiva lost, he knew, that Cass was the one that did it...also, the point here, is that Lady Shiva almost defeated the entire league of assassins together at the same time, alone...as a teenager, which skill-wise, is more impressive, than anything that D.D has ever done.

But...she isn't unbeatable....because she's been beaten several times. And skill wise, I actually disagree. Daredevil has wrecked Captain America, Beast, and Hercules at the same time, primarily using skill.

Yes, but he has also been defeated by him! actually, in the issue where Batman beats Prometheus, Prometheus stated it, by saying this: " last time, i beat you senseless, just to show you that i can "...Anyway, it's a high-end showing for Batman, just like Lady Shiva stomping David Cain on his prime, as a teenager, and while being pregnant...the same David Cain that stallemated Batman as a old man.

I know. But when Batman was defeated, Prometheus was using hypnotic strobe lights, powerful enough to paralyze Huntress, and neural chaff, which breaks down ones concentration and won't let them think straight. It was powerful bough to prevent Kyle Rayner from using his green lantern ring.

He wasn't taking her seriously, in the first moves...he quickly realized his mistake soon after, by even stating that he saw her, as his equal in Hand-to-Hand.

Yeah, they were pretty even. But that was a long time ago, and Batman did end up winning that fight because of outside interference, so we don't know what would have happened.

Agreed, they were evenly matched, which is how a fight between them, should always be, and not a ridiculous oneshot stomp like in Batman/Superman Public Enemies.

That is your opinion. But that is not how a writer for DC comics saw it. The feat stands, and don't try to compete out to other PIS feats like Spider-Man vs Fire Lord, they are completely different.

Bronze Tiger is crazy good, also holding his own against someone who's holding back, it's a unquantifiable feat.

Deathstroke wasn't really holding back.

Lady Shiva is NOW leagues more skilled than when she was, back in the day, that she toke on entire league...since she learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year...Shiva herself stated that her younger self from one year before, is out-classed, by her most recent self...also Shiva is not leagues more skilled than Batman, she's more skilled than him, though she's not much more skilled than him, since Batman is also a TOP tier in skill...he has been stated as being in the TOP 10, and he has the feats to back it up, just like Lady Shiva has the feats to back her up as the number 1 in skill, just below Karate Kid, who's from the future...also, Batman has also defeated David Cain, though not as easly as Lady Shiva did...which proves what i'm saying, Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman, though, she's not leagues above him.

I disagree, but that isn't the debate we are having here.

Also, as i told you before, the Bronze Tiger that stallemated Batman, was Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger, it was a different version of Bronze Tiger, than the one that Lady Shiva oneshotted on panel, as a teenager.

I brought that up once, I was talking about how Cain has stalemated Batman off panel, and Bronze Tiger beating Deathstroke.

I wouldn't have said it better myself...it's some cool fanart.

It was actually a little joke i was making, since it took place in an official comic published by DC.

I never said that it has not happened...also, thanks for your opinion, which, if you go back to my first post, you'll see that, that was actually all i wantted to know.

Well, I'm giving it to you, I said you wouldn't like it.

Cassandra Cain has stallemated Deathstroke twice! and in their first encounter, Slade didn't even landed one single hit on her, despite going all out, and he even had to blown up the entire building, to avoid being defeated, because he was losing...and Lady Shiva has holded her own, against Cassandra Cain, in Hand-to-Hand, 3 times.

I was talking about Cap, who could stalemate Deathstroke.

Exactly!...Venom is above street-level, they aren't even on the same tier...which means that D.D holding his own against him, it's PIS/WIS.

That doesn't automatically mean that at all. Like I've said, it is completely consistent with Daredevil's other feats. It seems to be routine for you to dismiss any feat that doesn't support your stance in an argument.

Not really, you said that D.D beat those Yakuzas, in a couple of minutes, and i posted scans of Cass taking out, 10 guys or more, in a few seconds...it's a matter of proportion...also, Cass has performed a similar feat, i just don't have the scans here to post it.

He beat 100 Yakuza in less than three minutes, meaning at the longest he took down a Yakuza every 1.8 seconds. Keep in mind 50 were on MGH.

What feats have those Yakuzas performed?...none! they are featless cannon-fodder...they were only there in order to make D.D look good...and the same goes for those mooks that Cass effortlessy toke out.

Well, Iron Patriot on MGH, had bullets bouncing off of his skin. 50 of those Yakuza were on it.

Yeah, she is...defeated and killed Richard Dragon...defeated Connor Hawke...holded her own against Cassandra Cain 3 times!...stallemated Batman...stomped David Cain...proved to be superior to Chesire in Hand-to-Hand, even despite being previously poisoned...holded her own against Robin (Tim Drake) which at the time was amped by a speed-enhancing-drugg, that according to himself, allowed him, to see everything else in slow motion, etc.

None of those really compare, and no, she didn't hold her own against Tim, he was hesitant at first, then he easily stomped her.

Venom is above street-level, Spider-Man is barely street-level...D.D holding his own against any of them has to be considered PIS/WIS, also, i find it hard to belive in their consistency...unless they hold back on him for some reason, or something else...those fights, have to have some type of special context.

No it doesn't. I know you want it to be since it's better than any feat you could possibly post for Shiva, but it isn't. I think pretty much the reason Batman beats Daredevil is because of his tech. Otherwise, I would be much less confident.

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@thebourneposter said:

@bat_girl_cc said:

1) How so?...Radar-sense is not exactly skill...

Because he was matching Iron Fist in hand to hand? Please don't tell me you think Shiva is vastly more skilled than Iron Fist.

2) a baseless "Yeah" is not gonna cut it...not for me at least.

I provided feats below.

3) Cassandra Cain has performed much of the same feats that D.D has, she's also faster than him, and Shiva has consistently keept up with her.

Her feats aren't as impressive, actually. Moving into a sniper bullets path from ten feet away and intercepting it with an inch wide club is more impressive than anything Cass has done. And i know she has outpaced a pistol bullet and dodged sniper bullets, not as impressive as moving into ones path from a distance and intercepting it. Shiva won't get speed blitzed, but DD has the speed advantage.

4) Yeah his natural agillity + his Radar-sense, agillity goes to him, i'll give you that.

By a wide margin, I should mention.

5) I'm not gonna do it because it's a waste of time, but if you want to, go ahead and make one, you'll se how many people "vote" on D.D.

He was holding his own against a morals off Wolverine, even gaining the upperhand. He also defeated him with a nerve strike in an Ennis book.

6) Batman has never defeated Lady Shiva, in a fair 1-on-1 Hand-to-Hand fight, he stated it himself, on multiple occasions...(yeah, i'm not counting the Batman/Superman Public Enemies WIS on which every single villain jobbed hard).

So you're not counting the instance because you disagree with it....okay. You say every villain jobbed hard, which is completely false. Batman has a win over Shiva.

- In the same panel that Bronze Tiger stated that only the entire league could've taken down Shiva, he also says that he knew that Cass was the one, who defeated her...so i don't see where's your doubt.

So unbeatable is just hyperbole with no actual value as a feat, obviously.

- Prometheus has a helmet which gives him the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world combined...him beating Shiva, is only logic...also, i'm pretty sure that Bronze Tiger meant "normal people"...not people with a helmet, with the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world combined.

See above. Also, Batman has beaten Prometheus in hand to hand.

7) This is what you don't get it (i honestly don't know why) Batman has never defeated Lady Shiva, he said so himself!...also they were stallemating on Batman #427 - A Death In the Family Part 2 on which Robin (Jason Todd) had to help Batman, by attacking Shiva, which provided a distraction, that gave Batman the advantage.

Batman wasn't taking her seriously for a little while until he saw what a threat she was, before Jason interfered they were pretty evenly matched.

- Bronze Tiger only gave trouble to Slade, because D.S wasn't serious, he was trying to talk to him.

Deathstroke was still fighting him. It isn't a 100% clear cut fight, but Tiger was gaining a decisive edge over DS.

- Of course that feat was not PIS! it was part of Lady Shiva's backstory!...if anything, what happened later is PIS, though, every character has high and low showings, but i still see Batman and Lady Shiva stallemating as reasonable out-come.

If you think that any feat that disagrees with previous showings of skill is PIS, then that feat is PIS. Shiva stalemates Batman when she is by your own admission, leagues more skilled. So how does she stomp Bronze Tiger and Cain at the same time, along with many other assassins?

8) Again! she doesn't "lose to Batman"...she never has! not in a 1-on-1 fair hand-to-hand fight, at least.

She hasn't? This is some cool fanart then.

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You insist this feat is PIS, but then use feats that by following your own logical processes would also be PIS.

Yes, Batman proved to be better than David Cain, no doubt, though, a fight between them, should be close, since they also have stallemated.

I agree to some extent.

9) You THINK that Batman would beat Shiva, or you WANT Batman to beat Shiva?...my money is on the later...and yes, Batman vs Lady Shiva, is "off-topic", we should move on.

It's happened, whether I like it or not. And I do think Batman would beat Shiva. But back on topic.

10) Lol, Cap has one of the biggest fanbases on the vine...he's one of the most popular comic book characters of all times!...his fanboys say that he can take on Deathstroke, Spider-Man and the Hulk...so, i'm sure that aIot of fanboys would just get in there and post "Cap wins", "Cap stomps" without no valid explanation...anyway, it has been done before:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/captain-america-vs-lady-shiva-25168/?page=1

He can take on Deathstroke, not necessarily win, but give him a hell of a fight.

11) Venom is not just some "meta-human"...many meta-humans are street-levelers...Venom is on that level, that you think that he's above street-level.

He is above street level.

12) What? in that occasion, you gave me 1 cannon fodder feat, and i gave you 11 cannon fodder feats!...not just one...and if you want, i can post them all again.

One cannon fodder feat leagues more impressive than any you posted. You showed her fighting small groups of gangbangers and secret agents. So please don't clog up this thread again.

Them being Yakuzas, or SWAT agents, it's all the same!...because they are featless!

What nonsense. So you think that a fodder Yakuza, with metahuman abilities, is the same as a gangbanger?

13) It's not PIS because Lady Shiva is THAT good!...also, it's part of her pre-flashpoint back-story...and no, not all high-end-showings are PIS, but Batman oneshotting Shiva, goes against what we know about both characters...and D.D holding his own against Spider-Man and/or Venom, goes against all logic.

Actually, compared to her other showings, she isn't quite that good. That feat goes against what we know of both characters. DD holding his own against Venom and Spider-Man doesn't go against all logic, he's done things that level his whole career, it's completely consistent with his character and his other showings.

" Because he was matching Iron Fist in hand to hand? Please don't tell me you think Shiva is vastly more skilled than Iron Fist. "

Yeah i do, actually just a few days ago, i had a debate with many Iron Fist fans, on which we were both agreeing that Iron Fist would take a majority over Shiva as long as he used his Chi-amps, if not, he would lose, due to Lady Shiva being more skilled, which i proved on that thread.

Also, what you said makes no sense...that's like me saying that because Cassandra Cain has a special abillity that alows her to know what her opponents will do way before they actually do anything, and thus, making her capable of beating pretty much everyone in Hand-to-Hand, than she's the most skilled of them all...it's not like that!...Martial arts skill is one thing...special abillities, as well as super-powers, are other different things.

" Her feats aren't as impressive, actually. Moving into a sniper bullets path from ten feet away and intercepting it with an inch wide club is more impressive than anything Cass has done. And i know she has outpaced a pistol bullet and dodged sniper bullets, not as impressive as moving into ones path from a distance and intercepting it. Shiva won't get speed blitzed, but DD has the speed advantage. "

You're right, they aren't AS impressive, they are MORE impressive!...actually you just said it yourself...Cass has out-paced a bullet before!...how can someone like D.D reacting fast enough to a bullet's speed, be considered more impressive than someone like Cass that has actually proved to be faster than one?

Also, has you mentioned, D.D reacted to a sniper-bullet, ten feet away...which means, that he had space and time to perform his feat...now look at this:

No Caption Provided

Cass had dodged a sniper-bullet, by only moving her head out of the bullet's way, when the projectil was just a few inches from her face, also unlike D.D's feat, this feat, besides being more impressive, it's also standard for Cass, since in the scan above, you can see her remembering doing the same thing, as a child, as part of her training under David Cain.

" By a wide margin, I should mention. "

Nightwing has been stated as being the most agile peak-human in the DC Universe, and Lady Shiva, still oneshotted him.

Not to mention, that Cassandra Cain has danced around Nightwing a few times, and she has never been able to do the same against Lady Shiva...why?...because while being more agile, gives you a advantage over your opponent, it's worthless, if you're not as fast as your opponent is.

" He was holding his own against a morals off Wolverine, even gaining the upperhand. He also defeated him with a nerve strike in an Ennis book. "

I don't see why Lady Shiva wouldn't be able to replycate that feat, also isn't Ennis a writter that has written Wolverine horribly, and that also hates Wolverine's character, and that has even admitted it in public?

" So you're not counting the instance because you disagree with it....okay. You say every villain jobbed hard, which is completely false. Batman has a win over Shiva. "

I disagree with it?...everyone disagree's with it!...minus 3 people that i know on this entire site...i disagree with it because it was massive PIS...not only that fight, but every fight that took place in that arc, in favor of Batman and Superman, everyone knows that, also Jeph Loeb is a writter that is famous for his fan-service...there's even a bunch of threads about it, here on ComicVine:

1) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/loeb-force-pis-moments-559071/

2) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/question-why-do-people-hate-jeph-loeb-so-much-624206/

3) http://www.comicvine.com/jeph-loeb/4040-40472/forums/what-is-loeb-force-419671/

I could go on...

" So unbeatable is just hyperbole with no actual value as a feat, obviously. "

?...i still, don't see where's your doubt...Bronze Tiger stated that Shiva was unbeatable, which means that she had never lost, to his knowledge, also he told Cassandra, that when Shiva lost, he knew, that Cass was the one that did it...also, the point here, is that Lady Shiva almost defeated the entire league of assassins together at the same time, alone...as a teenager, which skill-wise, is more impressive, than anything that D.D has ever done.

" See above. Also, Batman has beaten Prometheus in hand to hand. "

Yes, but he has also been defeated by him! actually, in the issue where Batman beats Prometheus, Prometheus stated it, by saying this: " last time, i beat you senseless, just to show you that i can "...Anyway, it's a high-end showing for Batman, just like Lady Shiva stomping David Cain on his prime, as a teenager, and while being pregnant...the same David Cain that stallemated Batman as a old man.

" Batman wasn't taking her seriously for a little while until he saw what a threat she was, before Jason interfered they were pretty evenly matched. "

He wasn't taking her seriously, in the first moves...he quickly realized his mistake soon after, by even stating that he saw her, as his equal in Hand-to-Hand.

Agreed, they were evenly matched, which is how a fight between them, should always be, and not a ridiculous oneshot stomp like in Batman/Superman Public Enemies.

" Deathstroke was still fighting him. It isn't a 100% clear cut fight, but Tiger was gaining a decisive edge over DS. "

Bronze Tiger is crazy good, also holding his own against someone who's holding back, it's a unquantifiable feat.

" If you think that any feat that disagrees with previous showings of skill is PIS, then that feat is PIS. Shiva stalemates Batman when she is by your own admission, leagues more skilled. So how does she stomp Bronze Tiger and Cain at the same time, along with many other assassins? "

Lady Shiva is NOW leagues more skilled than when she was, back in the day, that she toke on entire league...since she learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year...Shiva herself stated that her younger self from one year before, is out-classed, by her most recent self...also Shiva is not leagues more skilled than Batman, she's more skilled than him, though she's not much more skilled than him, since Batman is also a TOP tier in skill...he has been stated as being in the TOP 10, and he has the feats to back it up, just like Lady Shiva has the feats to back her up as the number 1 in skill, just below Karate Kid, who's from the future...also, Batman has also defeated David Cain, though not as easly as Lady Shiva did...which proves what i'm saying, Lady Shiva is more skilled than Batman, though, she's not leagues above him.

Also, as i told you before, the Bronze Tiger that stallemated Batman, was Pre-Crisis Bronze Tiger, it was a different version of Bronze Tiger, than the one that Lady Shiva oneshotted on panel, as a teenager.

" She hasn't? This is some cool fanart then. "

I wouldn't have said it better myself...it's some cool fanart.

" It's happened, whether I like it or not. And I do think Batman would beat Shiva. But back on topic. "

I never said that it has not happened...also, thanks for your opinion, which, if you go back to my first post, you'll see that, that was actually all i wantted to know.

" He can take on Deathstroke, not necessarily win, but give him a hell of a fight. "

Cassandra Cain has stallemated Deathstroke twice! and in their first encounter, Slade didn't even landed one single hit on her, despite going all out, and he even had to blown up the entire building, to avoid being defeated, because he was losing...and Lady Shiva has holded her own, against Cassandra Cain, in Hand-to-Hand, 3 times.

" He is above street level. "

Exactly!...Venom is above street-level, they aren't even on the same tier...which means that D.D holding his own against him, it's PIS/WIS.

" One cannon fodder feat leagues more impressive than any you posted. You showed her fighting small groups of gangbangers and secret agents. So please don't clog up this thread again. "

Not really, you said that D.D beat those Yakuzas, in a couple of minutes, and i posted scans of Cass taking out, 10 guys or more, in a few seconds...it's a matter of proportion...also, Cass has performed a similar feat, i just don't have the scans here to post it.

" What nonsense. So you think that a fodder Yakuza, with metahuman abilities, is the same as a gangbanger? "

What feats have those Yakuzas performed?...none! they are featless cannon-fodder...they were only there in order to make D.D look good...and the same goes for those mooks that Cass effortlessy toke out.

" Actually, compared to her other showings, she isn't quite that good. That feat goes against what we know of both characters. DD holding his own against Venom and Spider-Man doesn't go against all logic, he's done things that level his whole career, it's completely consistent with his character and his other showings. "

Yeah, she is...defeated and killed Richard Dragon...defeated Connor Hawke...holded her own against Cassandra Cain 3 times!...stallemated Batman...stomped David Cain...proved to be superior to Chesire in Hand-to-Hand, even despite being previously poisoned...holded her own against Robin (Tim Drake) which at the time was amped by a speed-enhancing-drugg, that according to himself, allowed him, to see everything else in slow motion, etc.

Venom is above street-level, Spider-Man is barely street-level...D.D holding his own against any of them has to be considered PIS/WIS, also, i find it hard to belive in their consistency...unless they hold back on him for some reason, or something else...those fights, have to have some type of special context.

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1) How so?...Radar-sense is not exactly skill...

Because he was matching Iron Fist in hand to hand? Please don't tell me you think Shiva is vastly more skilled than Iron Fist.

2) a baseless "Yeah" is not gonna cut it...not for me at least.

I provided feats below.

3) Cassandra Cain has performed much of the same feats that D.D has, she's also faster than him, and Shiva has consistently keept up with her.

Her feats aren't as impressive, actually. Moving into a sniper bullets path from ten feet away and intercepting it with an inch wide club is more impressive than anything Cass has done. And i know she has outpaced a pistol bullet and dodged sniper bullets, not as impressive as moving into ones path from a distance and intercepting it. Shiva won't get speed blitzed, but DD has the speed advantage.

4) Yeah his natural agillity + his Radar-sense, agillity goes to him, i'll give you that.

By a wide margin, I should mention.

5) I'm not gonna do it because it's a waste of time, but if you want to, go ahead and make one, you'll se how many people "vote" on D.D.

He was holding his own against a morals off Wolverine, even gaining the upperhand. He also defeated him with a nerve strike in an Ennis book.

6) Batman has never defeated Lady Shiva, in a fair 1-on-1 Hand-to-Hand fight, he stated it himself, on multiple occasions...(yeah, i'm not counting the Batman/Superman Public Enemies WIS on which every single villain jobbed hard).

So you're not counting the instance because you disagree with it....okay. You say every villain jobbed hard, which is completely false. Batman has a win over Shiva.

- In the same panel that Bronze Tiger stated that only the entire league could've taken down Shiva, he also says that he knew that Cass was the one, who defeated her...so i don't see where's your doubt.

So unbeatable is just hyperbole with no actual value as a feat, obviously.

- Prometheus has a helmet which gives him the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world combined...him beating Shiva, is only logic...also, i'm pretty sure that Bronze Tiger meant "normal people"...not people with a helmet, with the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world combined.

See above. Also, Batman has beaten Prometheus in hand to hand.

7) This is what you don't get it (i honestly don't know why) Batman has never defeated Lady Shiva, he said so himself!...also they were stallemating on Batman #427 - A Death In the Family Part 2 on which Robin (Jason Todd) had to help Batman, by attacking Shiva, which provided a distraction, that gave Batman the advantage.

Batman wasn't taking her seriously for a little while until he saw what a threat she was, before Jason interfered they were pretty evenly matched.

- Bronze Tiger only gave trouble to Slade, because D.S wasn't serious, he was trying to talk to him.

Deathstroke was still fighting him. It isn't a 100% clear cut fight, but Tiger was gaining a decisive edge over DS.

- Of course that feat was not PIS! it was part of Lady Shiva's backstory!...if anything, what happened later is PIS, though, every character has high and low showings, but i still see Batman and Lady Shiva stallemating as reasonable out-come.

If you think that any feat that disagrees with previous showings of skill is PIS, then that feat is PIS. Shiva stalemates Batman when she is by your own admission, leagues more skilled. So how does she stomp Bronze Tiger and Cain at the same time, along with many other assassins?

8) Again! she doesn't "lose to Batman"...she never has! not in a 1-on-1 fair hand-to-hand fight, at least.

She hasn't? This is some cool fanart then.

No Caption Provided

You insist this feat is PIS, but then use feats that by following your own logical processes would also be PIS.

Yes, Batman proved to be better than David Cain, no doubt, though, a fight between them, should be close, since they also have stallemated.

I agree to some extent.

9) You THINK that Batman would beat Shiva, or you WANT Batman to beat Shiva?...my money is on the later...and yes, Batman vs Lady Shiva, is "off-topic", we should move on.

It's happened, whether I like it or not. And I do think Batman would beat Shiva. But back on topic.

10) Lol, Cap has one of the biggest fanbases on the vine...he's one of the most popular comic book characters of all times!...his fanboys say that he can take on Deathstroke, Spider-Man and the Hulk...so, i'm sure that aIot of fanboys would just get in there and post "Cap wins", "Cap stomps" without no valid explanation...anyway, it has been done before:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/captain-america-vs-lady-shiva-25168/?page=1

He can take on Deathstroke, not necessarily win, but give him a hell of a fight.

11) Venom is not just some "meta-human"...many meta-humans are street-levelers...Venom is on that level, that you think that he's above street-level.

He is above street level.

12) What? in that occasion, you gave me 1 cannon fodder feat, and i gave you 11 cannon fodder feats!...not just one...and if you want, i can post them all again.

One cannon fodder feat leagues more impressive than any you posted. You showed her fighting small groups of gangbangers and secret agents. So please don't clog up this thread again.

Them being Yakuzas, or SWAT agents, it's all the same!...because they are featless!

What nonsense. So you think that a fodder Yakuza, with metahuman abilities, is the same as a gangbanger?

13) It's not PIS because Lady Shiva is THAT good!...also, it's part of her pre-flashpoint back-story...and no, not all high-end-showings are PIS, but Batman oneshotting Shiva, goes against what we know about both characters...and D.D holding his own against Spider-Man and/or Venom, goes against all logic.

Actually, compared to her other showings, she isn't quite that good. That feat goes against what we know of both characters. DD holding his own against Venom and Spider-Man doesn't go against all logic, he's done things that level his whole career, it's completely consistent with his character and his other showings.

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Edited By Butros

@butros: cool, thanks for the info! :)

You're welcome. :)
People sometime ignore DD does have powers,while he may be just peak human in agility his enhanced equilibrium,balance and sense allow him to perform way over human limits.
So I have no problem with him tagging someone like Cap or Spidey(well,we know Peter holds his back) even if they are physically way better.
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@aatroxx said:

@bat_girl_cc:

sorry yeah that came out wrong, I know Cap ain't a top street leveller, but Slade doesn't have a chance to beat top skilled street levellers like Iron Fist, Wolverine or Black Panther unless he is composite.

Fair Enough, though, i have my personal doubts on Black Panther.

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@thebourneposter said:
@bat_girl_cc said:

Yeah, she is.

Nope.

Daredevil, is much faster than someone who has consistently keep up with Cassandra Cain?...seriously??

Yeah.

Lady Shiva is a bullet timer, and she has dodged bullet's at point blank range...so, somehow i doubt he has better reflexes.

Well, you shouldn't. As I've shown before, DD is fast enough to jump ten feet into a snipers path and deflect it with his baton, after it was fired. He's also dodged projectiles from Bullseye consistently, and deflected them with his batons.

Yeah, he is more agile.

Significantly more so.

I'm pretty sure that if i make a Wolverine vs D.D fight, everyone will say: " Logan stomps! ".

Go ahead. Since Daredevil has defeated Wolverine on two separate occasions, (one written by Ennis, to be fair) anyone who says Wolverine stomps is wrong.

And i'm not the kind of the guy that calls PIS just because...i call PIS to what is PIS.

i do it?...lol, even most of Batman fans, call PIS to Batman oneshoting Shiva, and thei're right.

Also, they didn't stallemated once, they stallemated at least twice to my knowledgee.

On top of that, you have Batman stating multiple times, and under multiple writters, that Lady Shiva is better than himself in Hand-to-Hand, and that he thinks that Shiva is the best fighter in the world...someone that he has fought before.

Statements are completely useless as feats. So Bronze Tiger has fought Shiva, he says she's unbeatable. But she gets beaten by Batman, Cass, and Prometheus.

Lady Shiva has also better skill feats, taking on the whole League of Assassins by herself as a teenager, stomping David Cain while being pregnant, she also fought evenly Cassandra Cain on her peak, in Hand-to-Hand 3 times! and the closest from a even fight Batman ever gave to Cass on her peak, was a one time thing, on which he had to use, Gear + gadgets + dirty tactic's, to keep up, and that fight ended in stallemate.

So you still haven't answered my question....how do you not consider that feat PIS? Adult Shiva, who is leagues better, stalemates and loses to Batman. But teenage Shiva is stomping multiple people who stalemate and beat Batman or Deathstroke? Yeah right.

Also, you are confusing things, the Batman vs Bronze Tiger fights, were Pre-Crisis, while Lady Shiva was shown oneshotting him on panel, in the Pre-Flashpoint continuity.

Okay fine. Bronze Tiger gained a decisive edge over Deathstroke, I guess Shiva would stomp him.

Yup, David Cain is a good exemple of why Batman oneshotting Lady Shiva is ridiculous...on the same continuity, Batman stallemated a guy on his 40's / 50's, that on his prime got stomped by a teenager Lady Shiva, while being pregnant (who wasn't even Lady Shiva, yet).

So why do you assume that it must be PIS in Shiva's favor? I conclude that Shiva stomping Cain as a teenager is rubbish, because she stalemates and loses to Batman. In addition, Batman has beaten Cain in one page without being touched once.

Still, and despite all of that, i'm willing to consider a stallemate between the 2, as reasonable, while you consider Batman oneshotting Shiva (mind-controlled Shiva) as being a legit skill feat.

I wouldn't say that one shot is how a fight would go down. But Batman would win with extreme difficulty most of the time. But I'm not trying to debate Batman vs Shiva.

D.D is very good, but Lady Shiva is on another level, IMO.

Another level is simply false. Daredevil has held his own against Captain America and Iron Fist? Would Shiva stomp them. I again invite you to make a Shiva vs Captain America thread and see how many people say she stomps.

Wolverine and Sabertooth, is already pushing it...but Venom? c'mon dude! Venom > Spider-Man, Venom is arguably not even street-level...that is clearly a WIS showing.

No it's not. Daredevil consistently does that. That is his whole fighting style. He uses his speed and agility, along with his martial skill, to defeat far superior opponents. IIRC he didn't defeat Venom, but he just humiliated him speed-wise. If you say Daredevil beating superhumans is WIS, then half his showings are.

Also, we've gone through the Yakuzas feat...it's certainly impressive, but then again, it's a fodder feat, as i explained you before.

I found your explanation extremely lacking. You said that Cass defeating like six gangbangers was equally impressive, which is complete nonsense. I don't think that Shiva could replicate the Yakuza feat either.

?...so you implyed that Lady Shiva as a teenager, taking on the whole league of assassins together at the same time, (who, even though crazy skilled, are peak-humans at best) was a WIS feat...but you consider legit, D.D holding his own against Spider-Man? Ok.

His rader sense basically makes him superhuman. And I explained why the whole League was jobbing but you didn't offer any explanation as to why they weren't. If I have like seven feats for a character, from different writers, they're not all PIS.

1) How so?...Radar-sense is not exactly skill...

2) a baseless "Yeah" is not gonna cut it...not for me at least.

3) Cassandra Cain has performed much of the same feats that D.D has, she's also faster than him, and Shiva has consistently keept up with her.

4) Yeah his natural agillity + his Radar-sense, agillity goes to him, i'll give you that.

5) I'm not gonna do it because it's a waste of time, but if you want to, go ahead and make one, you'll se how many people "vote" on D.D.

6) Batman has never defeated Lady Shiva, in a fair 1-on-1 Hand-to-Hand fight, he stated it himself, on multiple occasions...(yeah, i'm not counting the Batman/Superman Public Enemies WIS on which every single villain jobbed hard).

- In the same panel that Bronze Tiger stated that only the entire league could've taken down Shiva, he also says that he knew that Cass was the one, who defeated her...so i don't see where's your doubt.

- Prometheus has a helmet which gives him the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world combined...him beating Shiva, is only logic...also, i'm pretty sure that Bronze Tiger meant "normal people"...not people with a helmet, with the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world combined.

7) This is what you don't get it (i honestly don't know why) Batman has never defeated Lady Shiva, he said so himself!...also they were stallemating on Batman #427 - A Death In the Family Part 2 on which Robin (Jason Todd) had to help Batman, by attacking Shiva, which provided a distraction, that gave Batman the advantage.

- Bronze Tiger only gave trouble to Slade, because D.S wasn't serious, he was trying to talk to him.

- Of course that feat was not PIS! it was part of Lady Shiva's backstory!...if anything, what happened later is PIS, though, every character has high and low showings, but i still see Batman and Lady Shiva stallemating as reasonable out-come.

8) Again! she doesn't "lose to Batman"...she never has! not in a 1-on-1 fair hand-to-hand fight, at least.

Yes, Batman proved to be better than David Cain, no doubt, though, a fight between them, should be close, since they also have stallemated.

9) You THINK that Batman would beat Shiva, or you WANT Batman to beat Shiva?...my money is on the later...and yes, Batman vs Lady Shiva, is "off-topic", we should move on.

10) Lol, Cap has one of the biggest fanbases on the vine...he's one of the most popular comic book characters of all times!...his fanboys say that he can take on Deathstroke, Spider-Man and the Hulk...so, i'm sure that aIot of fanboys would just get in there and post "Cap wins", "Cap stomps" without no valid explanation...anyway, it has been done before:

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/captain-america-vs-lady-shiva-25168/?page=1

11) Venom is not just some "meta-human"...many meta-humans are street-levelers...Venom is on that level, that you think that he's above street-level.

12) What? in that occasion, you gave me 1 cannon fodder feat, and i gave you 11 cannon fodder feats!...not just one...and if you want, i can post them all again.

Them being Yakuzas, or SWAT agents, it's all the same!...because they are featless!

13) It's not PIS because Lady Shiva is THAT good!...also, it's part of her pre-flashpoint back-story...and no, not all high-end-showings are PIS, but Batman oneshotting Shiva, goes against what we know about both characters...and D.D holding his own against Spider-Man and/or Venom, goes against all logic.

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sorry yeah that came out wrong, I know Cap ain't a top street leveller, but Slade doesn't have a chance to beat top skilled street levellers like Iron Fist, Wolverine or Black Panther unless he is composite.

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Yeah, she is.

Nope.

Daredevil, is much faster than someone who has consistently keep up with Cassandra Cain?...seriously??

Yeah.

Lady Shiva is a bullet timer, and she has dodged bullet's at point blank range...so, somehow i doubt he has better reflexes.

Well, you shouldn't. As I've shown before, DD is fast enough to jump ten feet into a snipers path and deflect it with his baton, after it was fired. He's also dodged projectiles from Bullseye consistently, and deflected them with his batons.

Yeah, he is more agile.

Significantly more so.

I'm pretty sure that if i make a Wolverine vs D.D fight, everyone will say: " Logan stomps! ".

Go ahead. Since Daredevil has defeated Wolverine on two separate occasions, (one written by Ennis, to be fair) anyone who says Wolverine stomps is wrong.

And i'm not the kind of the guy that calls PIS just because...i call PIS to what is PIS.

i do it?...lol, even most of Batman fans, call PIS to Batman oneshoting Shiva, and thei're right.

Also, they didn't stallemated once, they stallemated at least twice to my knowledgee.

On top of that, you have Batman stating multiple times, and under multiple writters, that Lady Shiva is better than himself in Hand-to-Hand, and that he thinks that Shiva is the best fighter in the world...someone that he has fought before.

Statements are completely useless as feats. So Bronze Tiger has fought Shiva, he says she's unbeatable. But she gets beaten by Batman, Cass, and Prometheus.

Lady Shiva has also better skill feats, taking on the whole League of Assassins by herself as a teenager, stomping David Cain while being pregnant, she also fought evenly Cassandra Cain on her peak, in Hand-to-Hand 3 times! and the closest from a even fight Batman ever gave to Cass on her peak, was a one time thing, on which he had to use, Gear + gadgets + dirty tactic's, to keep up, and that fight ended in stallemate.

So you still haven't answered my question....how do you not consider that feat PIS? Adult Shiva, who is leagues better, stalemates and loses to Batman. But teenage Shiva is stomping multiple people who stalemate and beat Batman or Deathstroke? Yeah right.

Also, you are confusing things, the Batman vs Bronze Tiger fights, were Pre-Crisis, while Lady Shiva was shown oneshotting him on panel, in the Pre-Flashpoint continuity.

Okay fine. Bronze Tiger gained a decisive edge over Deathstroke, I guess Shiva would stomp him.

Yup, David Cain is a good exemple of why Batman oneshotting Lady Shiva is ridiculous...on the same continuity, Batman stallemated a guy on his 40's / 50's, that on his prime got stomped by a teenager Lady Shiva, while being pregnant (who wasn't even Lady Shiva, yet).

So why do you assume that it must be PIS in Shiva's favor? I conclude that Shiva stomping Cain as a teenager is rubbish, because she stalemates and loses to Batman. In addition, Batman has beaten Cain in one page without being touched once.

Still, and despite all of that, i'm willing to consider a stallemate between the 2, as reasonable, while you consider Batman oneshotting Shiva (mind-controlled Shiva) as being a legit skill feat.

I wouldn't say that one shot is how a fight would go down. But Batman would win with extreme difficulty most of the time. But I'm not trying to debate Batman vs Shiva.

D.D is very good, but Lady Shiva is on another level, IMO.

Another level is simply false. Daredevil has held his own against Captain America and Iron Fist? Would Shiva stomp them. I again invite you to make a Shiva vs Captain America thread and see how many people say she stomps.

Wolverine and Sabertooth, is already pushing it...but Venom? c'mon dude! Venom > Spider-Man, Venom is arguably not even street-level...that is clearly a WIS showing.

No it's not. Daredevil consistently does that. That is his whole fighting style. He uses his speed and agility, along with his martial skill, to defeat far superior opponents. IIRC he didn't defeat Venom, but he just humiliated him speed-wise. If you say Daredevil beating superhumans is WIS, then half his showings are.

Also, we've gone through the Yakuzas feat...it's certainly impressive, but then again, it's a fodder feat, as i explained you before.

I found your explanation extremely lacking. You said that Cass defeating like six gangbangers was equally impressive, which is complete nonsense. I don't think that Shiva could replicate the Yakuza feat either.

?...so you implyed that Lady Shiva as a teenager, taking on the whole league of assassins together at the same time, (who, even though crazy skilled, are peak-humans at best) was a WIS feat...but you consider legit, D.D holding his own against Spider-Man? Ok.

His rader sense basically makes him superhuman. And I explained why the whole League was jobbing but you didn't offer any explanation as to why they weren't. If I have like seven feats for a character, from different writers, they're not all PIS.

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@aatroxx said:

@bat_girl_cc: Daredevil is a beast I would not say Shiva is on another level. And regarding ur post about Deathstroke 'stomping' Cap only version that stomps is composite Slade . pre or new 52 slade always falls to top street levellers

Cap is not a top street-leveler...those guys are Iron Fist, Slade, Spider-Man, Venom (i'm not sure if he's even a street-leveler)...Batman could take Cap with standard gear, though it would be very hard...and Slade has stomped Batman multiple times in one issue, while barely paying attention to him.

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@bat_girl_cc: Daredevil is a beast I would not say Shiva is on another level. And regarding ur post about Deathstroke 'stomping' Cap only version that stomps is composite Slade . pre or new 52 slade always falls to top street levellers

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@thebourneposter said:

@bat_girl_cc: Because she isn't vastly more skilled than him, and he is much faster and more agile, with better reflexes. Go ahead, make a Wolverine vs Lady Shiva thread in the battles forum and see how it goes.

I'm not the kind of guy who calls PIS on feats, so I won't on that one. But by your own logic, it seems like a feat where the League of Assassins must have been jobbing hard. You have said in the past that Batman stomping Shiva is PIS, because she stalemated him once. Yet apparently she beats, as a teenager, Bronze Tiger (stalemates/beats Batman) David Cain (has stalemated Batman) and those are just two people. But like i said, I try not to call PIS on a feat unless it's like Batman beating up Superman in a fist fight.

But yeah, Daredevil has comparable feats. Dancing around Venom without being touched once, a character who would likely slaughter the whole League. Beating one hundred Yakuza, fifty of who were metahuman, in under three minutes. Defeating Doctor Hyde, gaining distinct edges over Spider-Man (though that was a long time ago) and more.

" Because she isn't vastly more skilled than him, and he is much faster and more agile, with better reflexes. Go ahead, make a Wolverine vs Lady Shiva thread in the battles forum and see how it goes. "

Yeah, she is.

Daredevil, is much faster than someone who has consistently keep up with Cassandra Cain?...seriously??

Lady Shiva is a bullet timer, and she has dodged bullet's at point blank range...so, somehow i doubt he has better reflexes.

Yeah, he is more agile.

I'm pretty sure that if i make a Wolverine vs D.D fight, everyone will say: " Logan stomps! ".

" I'm not the kind of guy who calls PIS on feats, so I won't on that one. But by your own logic, it seems like a feat where the League of Assassins must have been jobbing hard. You have said in the past that Batman stomping Shiva is PIS, because she stalemated him once. Yet apparently she beats, as a teenager, Bronze Tiger (stalemates/beats Batman) David Cain (has stalemated Batman) and those are just two people. But like i said, I try not to call PIS on a feat unless it's like Batman beating up Superman in a fist fight."

And i'm not the kind of the guy that calls PIS just because...i call PIS to what is PIS.

i do it?...lol, even most of Batman fans, call PIS to Batman oneshoting Shiva, and thei're right.

Also, they didn't stallemated once, they stallemated at least twice to my knowledgee.

On top of that, you have Batman stating multiple times, and under multiple writters, that Lady Shiva is better than himself in Hand-to-Hand, and that he thinks that Shiva is the best fighter in the world...someone that he has fought before.

Lady Shiva has also better skill feats, taking on the whole League of Assassins by herself as a teenager, stomping David Cain while being pregnant, she also fought evenly Cassandra Cain on her peak, in Hand-to-Hand 3 times! and the closest from a even fight Batman ever gave to Cass on her peak, was a one time thing, on which he had to use, Gear + gadgets + dirty tactic's, to keep up, and that fight ended in stallemate.

Also, you are confusing things, the Batman vs Bronze Tiger fights, were Pre-Crisis, while Lady Shiva was shown oneshotting him on panel, in the Pre-Flashpoint continuity.

Yup, David Cain is a good exemple of why Batman oneshotting Lady Shiva is ridiculous...on the same continuity, Batman stallemated a guy on his 40's / 50's, that on his prime got stomped by a teenager Lady Shiva, while being pregnant (who wasn't even Lady Shiva, yet).

Still, and despite all of that, i'm willing to consider a stallemate between the 2, as reasonable, while you consider Batman oneshotting Shiva (mind-controlled Shiva) as being a legit skill feat.

" But yeah, Daredevil has comparable feats. Dancing around Venom without being touched once, a character who would likely slaughter the whole League. Beating one hundred Yakuza, fifty of who were metahuman, in under three minutes. Defeating Doctor Hyde, gaining distinct edges over Spider-Man (though that was a long time ago) and more. "

D.D is very good, but Lady Shiva is on another level, IMO.

Wolverine and Sabertooth, is already pushing it...but Venom? c'mon dude! Venom > Spider-Man, Venom is arguably not even street-level...that is clearly a WIS showing.

Also, we've gone through the Yakuzas feat...it's certainly impressive, but then again, it's a fodder feat, as i explained you before.

?...so you implyed that Lady Shiva as a teenager, taking on the whole league of assassins together at the same time, (who, even though crazy skilled, are peak-humans at best) was a WIS feat...but you consider legit, D.D holding his own against Spider-Man? Ok.

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@bat_girl_cc: Because she isn't vastly more skilled than him, and he is much faster and more agile, with better reflexes. Go ahead, make a Wolverine vs Lady Shiva thread in the battles forum and see how it goes.

I'm not the kind of guy who calls PIS on feats, so I won't on that one. But by your own logic, it seems like a feat where the League of Assassins must have been jobbing hard. You have said in the past that Batman stomping Shiva is PIS, because she stalemated him once. Yet apparently she beats, as a teenager, Bronze Tiger (stalemates/beats Batman) David Cain (has stalemated Batman) and those are just two people. But like i said, I try not to call PIS on a feat unless it's like Batman beating up Superman in a fist fight.

But yeah, Daredevil has comparable feats. Dancing around Venom without being touched once, a character who would likely slaughter the whole League. Beating one hundred Yakuza, fifty of who were metahuman, in under three minutes. Defeating Doctor Hyde, gaining distinct edges over Spider-Man (though that was a long time ago) and more.

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@k4tzm4n: Can you please do Karate Kid vs Iron Fist?

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@thebourneposter said:

@bat_girl_cc: I don't want to necassarily debate this, but DD beating Shiva is not even close to "LOL" I've said this before, but Daredevil has beaten Sabertooth, gained the upper hand on Wolverine during enemy of state, made Venom look slow, and more. Shiva would die badly in a fight against any of those people.

Shiva's best feat is what, losing to Cassandra Cain? Stalemating Batman?

If Daredevil didn't died badly against them, then why would Lady Shiva? who is vastly more skilled than him?

Shiva best feat i belive, is almost defeating the entire League of Assassins, alone, as a teenager (yeah, not just some canon fodder ninjas...but all of league's members together at the same time) and that was before she was even Lady Shiva...she wasn't even a 1/10 of the fighter she became years later (The Lady Shiva)

Look here:

On Bronze Tiger's words:

No Caption Provided

Do you honestly think that D.D could have replycated that feat?...please...and Shiva at that age, would get murder-stomped by pre-flaspoint, present time Shiva, who has been stated to learn 12 new different martial arts styles, every year:

No Caption Provided

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@bat_girl_cc: I don't want to necassarily debate this, but DD beating Shiva is not even close to "LOL" I've said this before, but Daredevil has beaten Sabertooth, gained the upper hand on Wolverine during enemy of state, made Venom look slow, and more. Shiva would die badly in a fight against any of those people.

Shiva's best feat is what, losing to Cassandra Cain? Stalemating Batman?

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@butros: cool, thanks for the info! :)

@bat_girl_cc: I'll give you my opinions, you might not like what you hear lol.

In this fight, I give the edge to Batman 8/10, mostly because of gear. Daredevil is much more agile and significantly faster, but Batman is more durable, more skilled in my opinion, and has his gear. So I give him the win.

I obviously already said that Daredevil beats Connor Hawke, and I also think that Daredevil would beat Shiva to be honest.

Ok, just to wantted to know your thoughts on this one...anyway, i don't agree that D.D is significantly faster than Bruce, significantly more agile? yes, faster? nah...even if he was, it would be by a very very small margin...also, as i said before, i see Connor Hawke and D.D as being close in stats, with D.D being a bit more agile, and Connor being a bit more skilled...as for D.D beating Shiva, sorry but that's just LOL.

Anyway, thanks guys for your thoughts.

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@bat_girl_cc: I'll give you my opinions, you might not like what you hear lol.

In this fight, I give the edge to Batman 8/10, mostly because of gear. Daredevil is much more agile and significantly faster, but Batman is more durable, more skilled in my opinion, and has his gear. So I give him the win.

I obviously already said that Daredevil beats Connor Hawke, and I also think that Daredevil would beat Shiva to be honest.

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@bat_girl_cc: @butros: Please remove me from the quote if you guys plan to continue the discussion.

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Edited By Butros

@bat_girl_cc said:

@jashro44 said:

@bat_girl_cc: His radar sense allows him to read people in a similar manner to cassandra cain but its based on hearing things like peoples heartbeat, shifts in muscle and bones, etc. Its kind of like Cassandra cains move reading but it works differently.

Hum...interesting!...but there's only one Cassandra Cain...therefor...still Connor :p

He has always had that ability,in the past he has been show to be unable Cap'metabolism because of his enhancement.(much like Cain had problem with Deathstroke.)

However in a very old issue he dodged Cap "reading him before his next move".

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@jashro44 said:

@bat_girl_cc: His radar sense allows him to read people in a similar manner to cassandra cain but its based on hearing things like peoples heartbeat, shifts in muscle and bones, etc. Its kind of like Cassandra cains move reading but it works differently.

Hum...interesting!...but there's only one Cassandra Cain...therefor...still Connor :p

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@jashro44 said:

@bat_girl_cc: As far as top tier fighters go, I agree Connor is good but I think there are a number of fighters better than him. Batman based his opinion on false info (which makes the statement not worth a lot). Honestly I don't see why daredevil wouldn't be able to replicate Connors showing against shiva, but I guess we already went over that.

Agreed on everything, minus D.D being able to replycate Connors feat...i think that in comparison to Connor, Matt would go down 1 or 2 blows before, Connor did... :p

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@bat_girl_cc: His radar sense allows him to read people in a similar manner to cassandra cain but its based on hearing things like peoples heartbeat, shifts in muscle and bones, etc. Its kind of like Cassandra cains move reading but it works differently.

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Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

@butros said:

DD has hold his own against Captain America who is physically superior to Batman and comparable to Deahtstroke...who has beaten Batman easily.

Unlike Cap DD can read Batman body and predict his actions.

Slade would stomp Cap, also since when D.D can read bodies?...as far as i know, D.D's radar-sense, it's like the spider-sense, it gives him a better awareness...and it also helps him, getting aware of possible danger...@jashro44: isn't that correct?...i never knew D.D could body-read...