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Does Batman always win? Batman vs Captain America

Steve Rogers versus Bruce Wayne is without question one of the most heated debates in comic book history. Does Batman "always win" or is the super soldier going to take him down? We provide our thoughts!


Place your bets.
Place your bets.

"Batman always wins. Why? Because... he's Batman."

That's an on-going joke surrounding the character, but I thought I'd take it a step further and have some fun with the statement. "Does Batman always win?" will hopefully be a monthly feature where I'll pit Batman in close match ups, weigh the advantages of each combatant, and then declare a winner (just like I did with Movie Dredd vs Movie Batman). The battle will always be standard comic book versions with their standard gear and it will take place in a neutral setting: a traditional and unpopulated city block at night. This will be a random encounter with ample starting distance. That means there's no prep!

Don't make him
Don't make him "one punch!" you, Hal.

Why Batman? Batman is simply a human at the end of the day, and that makes his accomplishments that much more impressive. Not only is Batman one of the most well known comic book characters around, he also demands your respect as a combatant. Even if you don't like him, you still have to admire the fact that he's extraordinary skilled, brilliant and has a huge array of equipment packed away in that belt of his. He can hang with some of the best and most dangerous street level characters around, and since that's the level I'm the most knowledgeable on, I'm excited for many of the matches I have in store for all of you (I'm welcome to suggestions, too!).

I present to you my first "Does Batman always win?" segment: Batman vs Captain America. Both are accomplished tacticians and highly talented combatants, but they each bring drastically different advantages to the table. They've faced before in non-canon crossovers and both times they were pretty evenly matched. Do I agree with that or do I think one should clearly be the victor? Read on to find out!

Captain America's advantages

There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.
There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.

Bruce Wayne has reached peak human condition with years of dedicated training. He was chopping through bricks and kicking down trees at just 25 years-old, but despite being beyond what any real-life human is capable of, Captain America is still his physical superior. Thanks to the Super-Soldier Serum, Captain America is technically defined as enhanced human and this provides him with strength, speed and endurance above The Dark Knight.

Captain America has been seen bench pressing 1,100 lbs and is capable of running a mile in just over a minute. While top running speed isn't the most critical factor, it still plays a role and proves that given the opportunity, Steve Rogers can absolutely keep pace with Bruce Wayne. In fights, strength is always a big factor. It means strikes can be more powerful and he can overcome in the event of a grapple. And with endurance, it obviously means the Super-Soldier won't fatigue as quickly as Wayne. That's not to discredit Wayne in that regard, of course. The events of 'Knightfall' prove Wayne can push his body to absurd limits, but Captain America simply has the unfair advantage of the SSS.

Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.
Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.

On top of being physically superior, Captain America has the perfect offensive/defensive weapon at his disposal: a virtually unbreakable shield. In Cap's hands, the shield is a colorful weapon worthy of your fear. Not only can he wield it incredibly well when it comes to striking his opponent in close combat, but he can also throw it with a ridiculous amount of accuracy (he's managed to turn off a lighter on the floor), has the technical mind needed to calculate amazing ricochet shots, and can use it to block a majority of incoming attacks. To me, ricochet shots are quite a wildcard worth taking into account here. The disc to the back of the head or torso is sure to throw someone (yes, even Batman) off their game.

Additionally, Captain America has made the claim that he can simply "see faster" than regular humans, and that grants him the reflexes to use the weapon with incredibly efficiency when it comes to defensive measures. That's going to be key here considering Batman has the edge in hand-to-hand capabilities.

Naturally, Captain America has some experience facing characters similar to Batman. He's had a few fights with Daredevil (though most have had significant factors) and had no real trouble holding his own (in all of them except for the recent one in Waid's DD), taken down Taskmaster, has proven to be roughly equal to Black Panther, and had a close encounter with classic Iron Fist.

Batman's advantages

Can skill overcome physicals?
Can skill overcome physicals?

While Captain America has Batman outclassed physically and has one incredibly resourceful weapon, Bruce Wayne has some praise worthy advantages of his own. First and foremost, Batman is more skilled than Captain America. Rogers is very talented in his own right (once claimed to be adept at every style), but Batman has a level of skill that few street levelers can compete with. Somehow through years of extensive studying, his Bat brain has "perfected every known fighting discipline." (JLA: The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America). Not only is he more talented than Rogers in unarmed combat,but Dick Grayson has also made the claim that Wayne knows every single pressure point -- and we've seen Wayne disable foes with nerve strikes quite a few times before.

Shoryuken!
Shoryuken!

But, this isn't unarmed combat. Captain America has his shield and luckily for Batman, he has a wealthy amount of weaponry at his disposal. While Captain America has just one weapon (albeit an impressive one), The Dark Knight has variety on his side. America's super soldier has no counter for a cryo pellet, various gases, smoke pellets, light explosives and electric attacks. That's barely even scratching the surface of what Wayne can implement in combat, too.

Smoke pellets can further compliment Batman's already beyond impressive stealth capabilities as well. Batman has flawlessly vanished while he was right in the target's line of sight. To me, this totally defies logic, but it's a consistent feat in his career and therefore something he can do on a regular basis. If needed, Batman can use this environment to his advantage with proper use of his smoke pellets and grappling line. From there, it's a game of ninja cat versus steroids cat. Batman can regain the edge thanks to his stealth, but at the same rate, there's no guarantee the strike will be a critical game changer.

Batman has an extensive history of fighting characters physically superior to him. Deathstroke would be a prime example of this (since he's also enhanced). While Deathstroke has made short work of him, it's worth noting that Batman didn't implement his gear and Slade Wilson is, as he bluntly stated himself, more vicious and trained to kill. While Rogers has no problem crossing that line when required, it's not in character for him to be that aggressive in this encounter. Then there's Bane, a man of course less powerful than Captain America (off venom since that's how a majority of their fights went down), but still Batman has been able to overcome him thanks to his greater talent in martial arts.

The Verdict

Flip a coin.
Flip a coin.

Of course these characters fluctuate from writer to writer, but I believe that written to their full potential and thrown into this scenario, the outcome would be a stalemate. To think either has a blatant advantage to make the outcome obvious is simply false to me. Both bring valuable aspects to the table and it's completely logical to see either taking it. While Batman has the edge in skill, it by no means renders him untouchable to Cap, and one clean connect from his enhanced level strength or shield (be it a strike or ricochet) holds the potential to turn the tide. Meanwhile, Batman's stealth abilities and massive array of equipment that Cap has no immediate counter for are equally big wild cards to me. I legitimately believe it's entirely conceivable for either to be the victor in this case.

G-Man's thoughts

"I would say, even though Batman is supposed to win, you could expect Cap to win. ESPECIALLY because of The New 52. It just seems Cap has way more experience taking on a large variety of threats with many on a galactic level.

Batman, we have to assume, hasn't dealt with too many foes outside of his rogues gallery. Yes he fought Darkseid in JUSTICE LEAGUE 1-6 but what other huge threats did he face? Has he lead the JL on many missions or other teams? Cap has more experience and is prepared to go up against foes like Ultron, Kang the Conqueror and even Galactus. There's always the infamous "prep" time but unless Batman defeats him quickly, Cap would have the skills to keep dodging his attacks and the stamina to outlast Batman."

Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!
Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!

Gregg Katzman is a freelance writer for Comic Vine and IGN Entertainment. If this feature does well, expect another one next month! Be sure to follow him on Twitter for early spoilers every week about Rants & Raves and Best Battles!

760 Comments

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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@trexrice: You do know that batman fought for 28 hours straight before right? The fight wouldn't last that long anyway, so cap isn't wearing bruce out at all

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Lone_Rider

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okay people, Captain America will not stand a chance against BvS, sorry fanboys, but you have forgot the amazing cast and realism from DC. I mean, like holy sh*t, they got Frank Miller working behind the scenes with Snyder and and that other guy from WB (Nolan?) but yeah BvS will blow Cap out the water, unless they bring Black Panther or another big unrevealed superhero into the 3rd movie, plus i think Snyder would be smart enough to push the movie 2 months forward or back on the release date. Marvel is getting played out, it doesnt have as much realism as the DC universe, like BvS will be so serious of a dramatic film like wow, it might actually win an OSCAR THIS TIME, i am sorry fanboys, but post-2015 aint looking good for marvel, after Doctor Strange & Avengers 3, marvel will be played out, like they will have to truly refresh their roster. If anything, i think the months of July or August of 2016 would be a great time to release the BvS because the competition will be few to none; listen marvel fanboys, agents of shields kinda blows, its sh*tting circles around itself, but i still watch it (but really aliens, like they cant hint villians or something); oh yeah thats right, Marvel might have more inter-connecting and number-wise more superheroes than DC, but DC has more villians... and better villians and iconic ones too, like BvS is gonna be DC's fresh start flim, its gonna be way more lucturative than Avengers 2 or Cap's 3rd crap film about more Hydra or his potential death (?). With DC, every film after BvS will build a way stronger bond than Avengers every did for Marvel, sorry fanboys...

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Moonlighterstone

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If Batman has all his gadgets, then Batman. Naked, toe-to-toe, Cap wins.

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Bezza

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Just back from seeing the winter soldier. Ok films aren't "canon" but that film show-cases perfectly how formidable Cap is. He is very fast, tosses 14/15 stone men around like rag dolls and can tank the sort of punishment that would kill Batman. I.e. plunging out of a window at least 5 or 6 storeys up and landing on his shield without injury....anyway, unless Batman has one of his really fancy suits, I'm backing Cap for this one.

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leonkarlen123

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Yes Batman wins. He gave a planet buster a fight without using weakness. Also hurt Spectre with the Batkick!

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deactivated-5d45fd7ce1a16

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I think Batman wins.

But it would be a hard battle.

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deactivated-5afb23ee0b488

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FuriousWeasel

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Cap FTW.

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BatmanvsSupermanBatmanwins

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THE BMAN cos he's batman!!!!!!!!!!

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Jedi_Knut

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Edited By Jedi_Knut
No Caption Provided

They make a great team and are two sides to the same coin. These two characters are my co-number one favorites. It depends on the circumstances of the fight to say which one would overcome the other.

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OrangeBat

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@jedi_knut said:

No Caption Provided

They make a great team and are two sides to the same coin. These two characters are my co-number one favorites. It depends on the circumstances of the fight to say which one would overcome the other.

Who's art is that? It looks familiar, but I can't quite place it.

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Jedi_Knut

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@orangebat: It is by John Byrne :) He did a great cross-over special with these two characters.

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Batman11PJP

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Batman wins as he has better skills and gadgets.

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TheBattleCalculatot

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Captain America's shield is his greatest strength, but if you think about it, it's also his greatest weakness. Cap's throwin' his shield left and right all the time, but what if someone just catches it? There goes Cap's shield. Batman has a larger chance of taking it.

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Hollow_Point

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I've always said Cap takes a small majority against Batman. I'm sticking to that here.

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Bat_Girl_CC

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Edited By Bat_Girl_CC

Batman wins

They are fairly close, both in physicals and in Hand-to-Hand...but their skill gap is bigger than their physical gap IMO...they are both Peak-Humans, even though, they both have performed some (legit) low-level-meta-human feats...with Cap being a bit stronger, a bit faster, a bit more durable, and a bit more agile, due to the serum...but Batman is in the DC's TOP 10 martial artist's...and he has stallemated most of the fighters in there, so in my opinion, he wins due to being more skilled.

And if we go by the "all out battle rules" then Batman wins again, Cap has a very durable shield, and he knows how to use it, sure...but Batman has many, many gadgets just on his standard gear, that he could use to win here...and specially, if New 52 Batman's Gear and feats, are allowed.

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RisingBean

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@bat_girl_cc: I don't see any bias in this opinion at all. :) Also, Cap has pulled pressure points and all the same sort of stunt as Batman has at one time or another. So I could argue the skill gap is closer then the physical one and sound more logical then people who cry Bruce is on Steve's physical level. Do you see Bruce tossing a shield that outpaces a missile? Do you see him destroying a tank in one shot?

These two are a great fight because they have different strengths. Bruce has versatility in gear and a slight edge in skill, Cap has better stats.

Captain America's shield is his greatest strength, but if you think about it, it's also his greatest weakness. Cap's throwin' his shield left and right all the time, but what if someone just catches it? There goes Cap's shield. Batman has a larger chance of taking it.

Bruce has a better chance of breaking or losing his hand, depending on how hard Steve tosses it.

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lowryder

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I read some pages and I think most if not all of you missed an important point. That being, I'd like to heavily stress what people didn't stress enough: it's a fight heavily dependant on circumstances and, especially who gets the clean first hit, which will probably be enough to end the match.
Clean hit being, in the case of Bats, finding some gadget to stun or subdue Cap, or exploiting some vulnerability of his through the use of his tech or wits, while I'm pretty sure that just one well-placed strike with the shield should be more than enough to put Batman down for the count for Captain American.

Another thing which should regarded as common ground while scrutinizing this is that Cap has a somewhat heavy physical stats advantage, not only in the sense that he is slightly above human physically, while not downright superhuman (check the Marvel Wikia for his feats) but that he's built to use his body/senses/reaction times better than what Batman could hope to achieve in a lifetime. He's more akin to a "fighting machine" with a heart, while Bats is just an incredible fighter.

As in a Kasparov vs. Deep Blue match, Batman is the top human pitted against the machine, the gold standard, the perfection, as Cap is the top that humanity was able to create.

"Peak human" for Bats means "almost perfect in every conceivable way",
Cap is "perfect in every conceivable way and slightly beyond".

Batman has a slight edge as far as martial arts prowess go. Although Cap is still an abnormally capable martial artist, Batman is behind just a handful of metahumans in the DC Universe (Shiva, Val Armorr). This would give him the edge, but Cap is still stronger, faster and probably even a slightly better "fighting tactician" in light of his refined senses, not to mention he'll be accustomed/familiar or able to discern everything Bat as to offer him in a purely physical confrontation. Don't forget that Captain America has always been portrayed as able to go toe to toe with superhuman fighters and to stand his own ground against Spider-Man (a class 15 to 25 with reflexes, speed and raw power way beyond Batman and humans in general), Daredevil, Wolverine and such.

In the end, like I said, unless we want to think Batman has a trump card in his utility belt, these are the possible (or rather likely) scenarios in the hands of a writer who wants to represent an unbiased fight:

1. They fight evenly for a while, Batman's edge in fighting styles balanced by the fact that Captain America hits harder and can take more punishment. Captain America eventually gets a lucky hit with the vibranium shield at the during the match, Batman is out cold.

2. They fight evenly for a while. Batman eventually uses his gadgets as he realizes that it is highly unlikely he will overcome Cap physically/ tries to take advantage of the fight location.
Should there be a turn of events like this, Batman gains a slight or considerable edge (depending on what could be in his utility belt/ Batsuit... gas, toxins, stun guns, life-replica Nazi statues, highly dependant on the writer, to be honest), however, Cap could still overcome the odd as, while surely behind Bats, he's no fool and a cunning strategist himself.

3. Same as scenario 2, but Cap is able to neutralize/remove/destroy the "gadget" or strip Batman of his utility belt entirely, making this a fist fight with the incognit. Although unlikely even if brought up fairly often, this and only this creates the premise for the "they fight until they wear themselves down" scenario. Getting some CIS here, I see Cap throwing his shield away as he would probably perceive it as an unfair advantage of sorts. It still doesn't matter though, as Cap could be fighting for dozens of hours or even days, wearing Batman out or forcing him to retreat in the process, unless Batman is able to ambush him in the shadows (depending on the location) or strike his pressure points (all the while, Cap would barely give him the chance to do so without the belt).

4. A nice twist of events in a Miller-like scenario: they fight evenly for a while. Then scenario 2/3 or both occur. Batman analyzes Cap and his character. He gives up, yields, and when Cap is off-guard proceeds to sucker-punch him somehow to uncosciousness (stunning him with a gadget, karate-hand chopping him or). Underhand tactic, still a win. Cap is a man of honor, while Batman is more of a "whatever it takes to win" type. This not counting if we are using a bloodlusted Cap or a "fight to the death", which would most likely never happen as both men would refuse to kill the other even with a universe at stake.

In my estimations, Batman can probably win 8/10 with preparation (as in, he wants to fight Cap and not just capture him/ incapacitate him, would be around a 9/10 otherwise... take "preparation" as whatever you want: studying his fighting style, bringing anti-vibranium, etc.).

Otherwise it's Cap 6/10. Impromptu fight even in a scenario where Bats is given the chance to exploit his surroundings, using his wits or try to trick Cap in every way he can.

In the end, I'd side with Cap, simple because giving Batman knowledge of his adversary/ prep time is PIS and there are too many variables to create to make Batman win despite his astonishing abilities without it. Still, either outcome, as long as it happens along the lines of the aforementioned scenarios, would be reasonable.

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End_Boss

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I love them both too much, can't they just be friends? :<

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Bat_Girl_CC

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@bat_girl_cc: I don't see any bias in this opinion at all. :) Also, Cap has pulled pressure points and all the same sort of stunt as Batman has at one time or another. So I could argue the skill gap is closer then the physical one and sound more logical then people who cry Bruce is on Steve's physical level. Do you see Bruce tossing a shield that outpaces a missile? Do you see him destroying a tank in one shot?

These two are a great fight because they have different strengths. Bruce has versatility in gear and a slight edge in skill, Cap has better stats.

@thebattlecalculatot said:

Captain America's shield is his greatest strength, but if you think about it, it's also his greatest weakness. Cap's throwin' his shield left and right all the time, but what if someone just catches it? There goes Cap's shield. Batman has a larger chance of taking it.

Bruce has a better chance of breaking or losing his hand, depending on how hard Steve tosses it.

No, no bias at all :)

" Cap has pulled pressure points and all the same sort of stunt as Batman has at one time or another. "

I doubt Cap uses them as frequently as Batman does...also, Nightwing once stated that Batman knows every single Pressure-Point.

" So I could argue the skill gap is closer then the physical one and sound more logical then people who cry Bruce is on Steve's physical level. Do you see Bruce tossing a shield that outpaces a missile? Do you see him destroying a tank in one shot? "

You could argue that...but based on what?...Batman has overall more and better showings than Cap, Hand-to-Hand-wise...also how frequently does Cap perform those feats?...Bruce has broked through bazuca-proof-glass...he has kicked through trees, etc...like i said, they both have some (legit) low-level-meta-human feats...Cap does have a small edge in plysicals, but Batman has the edge in skill.

" These two are a great fight because they have different strengths. Bruce has versatility in gear and a slight edge in skill, Cap has better stats. "

They are fairly even, in my opinion, but when it comes down to it, Bruce is more skilled, has more and better options Gadgets-wise, and is only a bit inferior to Cap stats-wise...which in my opinion is not enough to give Cap a majority against Batman.

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RisingBean

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Edited By RisingBean

@bat_girl_cc: I was ribbing you over your bat-handle. Play along, darnit.

I'd give it to the stats guy over the skill guy, myself. Particularly when he can dismember you at will. Weight classes exist for a reason. As for the frequency of a feat, Cap uses his skills more often then Wolverine, for example, yet Wolverine is more skilled when it comes down to it. Point is Cap at one point or another has done nearly anything Batman has done via skill. It's just a matter of frequency.

The reason I brought it up is Bat fans love to try and put Bruce on the same tier as Steve physically, but violently disagree with the skill showings. I'm willing to agree Batman is more skilled based on frequency when it's done equally across the board. Cap consistently does more things that are flat out superhuman so one would think he has an edge in stats. "Not so!" says the average Bat fan. "Bruce once pulled out this feat when he...." And we're expected to take that seldom seen (if ever repeated) high end feat as the norm.

Read Dimension Z. Cap was taking headers off of high platforms that looked to be several hundred feet high and would have killed most street levelers. He was fighting with his chest torn out and taking bullets through his torso. He was also killing mutates via shield dismemberment at will. I often see Steve having the same problem as Clark Kent. Being too nice a guy has people mistaking kindness for weakness.

No Caption Provided

The mutate above wishes Cap was playing nice.

All in all you are not as rabid as some fans on the stats/skill argument. I'm thankful for that. Hell you even agree with me, just not to the extent I feel is correct. I engaged you expecting to fight off half of CV with a stick. Aw well.

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VenomousTaco

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Batman will always take a majority due to gadgets. Otherwise, Cap would edge him out.

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Bat_Girl_CC

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@bat_girl_cc: I was ribbing you over your bat-handle. Play along, darnit.

I'd give it to the stats guy over the skill guy, myself. Particularly when he can dismember you at will. Weight classes exist for a reason. As for the frequency of a feat, Cap uses his skills more often then Wolverine, for example, yet Wolverine is more skilled when it comes down to it. Point is Cap at one point or another has done nearly anything Batman has done via skill. It's just a matter of frequency.

The reason I brought it up is Bat fans love to try and put Bruce on the same tier as Steve physically, but violently disagree with the skill showings. I'm willing to agree Batman is more skilled based on frequency when it's done equally across the board. Cap consistently does more things that are flat out superhuman so one would think he has an edge in stats. "Not so!" says the average Bat fan. "Bruce once pulled out this feat when he...." And we're expected to take that seldom seen (if ever repeated) high end feat as the norm.

Read Dimension Z. Cap was taking headers off of high platforms that looked to be several hundred feet high and would have killed most street levelers. He was fighting with his chest torn out and taking bullets through his torso. He was also killing mutates via shield dismemberment at will. I often see Steve having the same problem as Clark Kent. Being too nice a guy has people mistaking kindness for weakness.

No Caption Provided

The mutate above wishes Cap was playing nice.

All in all you are not as rabid as some fans on the stats/skill argument. I'm thankful for that. Hell you even agree with me, just not to the extent I feel is correct. I engaged you expecting to fight off half of CV with a stick. Aw well.

Lmao!...anyway, i'm not gonna put too much effort into this, since we are basically arguing the same thing here...the only think i disagree with you, is about Steve being way above Bruce in physicals...sure, there's a difference, but i don't think that it's a substancial one, since they both have peak-human stats, and they both have performed some (legit) low-level-metahuman feats...i already said that Cap has the stats-advantage, i just don't think that it is a big one...we'll have to agree to disagree.

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RisingBean

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@bat_girl_cc: I'll use a bit of real world logic here. (don't kill me.) Stats don't have to be worlds apart. Think of weight classes in MMA. Put a guy who weighs just 40 lbs more then his foe and see the smaller guy get crushed nine times out of ten. That tenth time is when the smaller guy is leagues above the heavier guy in either skill or endurance.

That is one of the false premises that comics perpetuate, that anybody can do anything. Robin beating up grown men? Yeah, I don't know a 12 year old alive, trained or not who is taking down the average guy on the street. That 40 pound difference isn't even the case here. Bruce is peak human in the sense that training, diet and exercise are used to the utmost effect. Steve is peak human as in potential peak of human potential. In the here and now, against other normal folks, he's superhuman.

Bruce is a threat because of skill and even moreso because of versatility of equipment. Two guys in battle with everything else being equal will win or lose according to their tech.

As it is, we will have to agree to disagree. However It was a pleasure to interact with you, and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

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BatShan7

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Edited By BatShan7

Batman knows 127 different martial arts. He can fight physically on par with Steve. Now before you start hating me. I am a Batfanboy. That's the truth. I am not blind tho. Captain America will never tire out. He doesn't acquire lactic acid. He will never get sore or tired. He will keep fighting and his wounds will heal whilst he's fighting. Batman might whip out something at the start but if the fight prolongs then Bruce boy has no chance. He's gonna be utterly demolished. It all depends on the location as well.. Cap could be at a disadvantage in a cave. Bruce could be disadvantageous on a mountain side with lot of brightness.... Overall

Comparing each other's strength

Steve

Strength : 10

Intelligence : 8

Durability : 10

Bruce

Strength : 9

Intelligence : 9.5

Durability : 8

Steve takes it.



EDIT : These stats are against each other. Not overall.

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liheibao

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Captain America.

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alfredo_flores_1426

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I think Cap takes this one, at least 51-60% of the time. Cap is a far more experienced tactician, he trains on a regular basis with truly earthbreakingly powerful beings like Thor and Hulk, and with someone like Tony Stark, who is arguably more brilliant than Batman. So Batman won't throw anything to Cap that he hasn't already seen or encountered. Martial-artswise they can be said to be the same, because it doesn't matter who masters more styles, it's how they adapt it for themselves. Cap is just so enhanced physically that most fighting styles wouldn't work for him, so he picks forms that would be the most useful to him, kinda like Bruce Lee. Although it would crazy close, if I had to make a bet I'd choose Cap.

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Joker13CSC

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Random Encounter and No BS Cap should take this 7/10. Sure Batman knows 127 Martial arts but lets be real, even if it's possible to learn all of them don't you think you would freeze up choosing which one to use in certain situations. You are still gonna be a great fighter but by no means are you gonna beat a super soilder who is bigger, stronger, faster, and more durable than you and never gets tired who also knows several forms of martial arts. Bruces gadgets could give him a win every now and then but more often then not he will go down in a hell of a battle. Take Bats toys away though and get ride of caps shield and Rodgers takes this 9/10 easily. Bruce is still human and Cap can shatter a regular person jaw in one punch. Batman is always hyped up to be better than he really is, granted he is good but he is no Captain America.

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clownprinceofcrime1995

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Bats vanishes and grapples to roof. Bat-traq takes Steve from there.

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axle124

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Edited By axle124

Cap takes this due to physicals and bats not willing to kill,, but bats has many ways to defeat steve also....

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lamdaddy20

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I think Batman wins, as a martial artist he has cap beat and he has taken down enemies stronger or at his level, for example Man Bat, Clayface, Killer Croc, etc. Plus batman has a better tactical mind, he has more tools at his disposal, and he is willing to play dirty to take the win. He takes it 6/10

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conner_wolf

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Simple listing of their abilities, observe, if you would.

Strength

Batman: 1000 lbs, possibly a bit more

Captain America: At his lowest, 1200, but in practice 5 tons at least, at most? 10 tons. He's been displayed easily overpowering people on this level, and has quite a few feats that could put him at 100 ton level, but I don't use PIS, which is what those were, but keep in mind they exist

So this puts Cap easily above Batman in strength, and at least should be able to overpower him, but let's keep going.

Speed

Batman: 26-30 MPH

Captain America: 50-60 MPH

This allows Cap to easily close the distance with Batman, bringing the fight into close quarters where Cap doesn't have to deal with many of Batman's toys.

Agility/Reflexes

Batman: 100 miliseconds maybe 80 miliseconds since this is comics, but no more.

Captain America: 4-5 miliseconds, At least 16x faster than Batman, at most? 25x faster. That means should Batman strike him, Cap's reflexes would allow him to dodge and retaliate much faster than Batman could react.

Durability

There are no numbers for this, but Cap would take it for the pure fact that, he takes more beatings than Batman, he survives larger-scale explosions, and tends to fight enemies like Iron Man-a 100+ tonner-and comes out fine.

Stamina

Captain America by far, Batman is human, he can get tired, Cap can't. If this turned into a war of attrition, Cap would take it.

Martial Prowess

Wash, both are masters of every single Martial Art, but if I had to, I'd give it more to Cap due to his experience with Asgardian, Olympian, Wakandan, and K'un-Lun fighting styles, though I don't know if Wonder Woman taught him Amazonian Martial Arts, or Superman Kryptonian, so it could easily wash once more.

Now, with pure strength Cap likely couldn't win against someone of Batman's skill, but with equal skill, that causes Cap to shoot up because he can then use the same techniques as Batman, plus more possibly, and he then has the strength to put out more damage, the reflexes to dodge more attacks, the durability to take more hits, and the stamina to keep hitting. That's what matters when two people are equal in skill on this level.

But then you also need to remember, Cap has a close-range weapon, which when it comes to Martial Arts, automatically gives someone a lethal advantage, sending Cap into the lead.

Defensive/Offensive Equipment

Now with armor alone I'd wash this out again, as both are made of lightweight Titanium and can withstand massive punishment, but you also have to take Cap's shield into this since that sounds as defense, and as a Proto-Adamantium/Vibranium shield, with Uru to enhance it as well, Batman does not have one weapon that can pierce that shield in his arsenal. While it may not cover enough of his body, consider this.

Both of their armors themselves might be equal, but their weapons determine who will bust through what, Batman's weapons won't go through Cap's armor easily, it's fire retardant, electrical retardant, etc.... but Cap's shield, that's gone through Adamantium once before, and regularly goes through Titanium armors, including that of Iron Man-who's even complimented Cap on the durability of his armor before. Which means should both of their weapons impact the other's armor, Cap's armor will hold up, Batman's won't

Versatility

As much as Cap can use his shield for, and all he can do with it, he can't match Batman's versatility, not by a longshot, Batman can do too much with his many weapons and that gives him the win, and being able to throw multiple weapons at once can truly do some damage.

Logistics

Cap, and while you may question this one, Cap's ability to reuse his shield over and over again means that he's not running out of ammo any time soon, giving Cap the advantage in this match. Eventually, no matter how long it takes, Batman's going to run out of ammo.

Batman's stealth

Now this category isn't just called 'Stealth', and you'll see why.

Batman is the master of stealth, very few have his abilities, he's a ninja and almost nobody can sense him, but nobody doesn't include Captain America.

The thing about Batman that people use is non-combat feats, sneaking around Superman when he's not paying attention, sneaking around other Superhumans when they're distracted with others and they can't focus on him. Besides, hearing his heartbeat doesn't work because not only does his armor quiet his heartbeat, but he has methods to slow it down, but Cap won't use that. Cap uses air currents and movement, and as someone with mass, Batman is subject to these. As he moves around, he interrupts natural air flow, and since two forces cannot occupy the same space at the same time, as Batman moves around he pushes around the air, and Cap can feel this disruption in currents, or the increase in force as Batman moves towards him, and can react to that, even in a smoke bomb he can do that and feel the movement and react. Not only that, but his eyes are enhanced to the point he'd sometimes been able to see perfectly in the dark with only the slightest bit of light around him. Even if both of those failed, this is a combat scenario and it's much harder not to make noise in combat and Cap could use that, easily. And then to really top it off, Cap's reflexes would make it entirely possible for him to simply grab Batman after the first strike and then wail on him, hard.

Strategy

Probably the biggest surprise to most people, Cap is the better strategist, as good a strategist as Batman is, as much as he can do with his mind, as much as he's done and he's worked for, it comes down to he's only human. It takes him time to come up with his best strategies. His strategies for the Justice League took weeks or months of prep and he tends to focus on an enemy's weak spot or something he can exploit, Cap doesn't have that when it comes down to it, at least not easily detectable. Cap's different, his strategies are more grounded in simply working the battlefield to his favor, fighting until there's an opening and taking it, you have Batman taking on Superman, Cap taking on Hulk, King Thor, Iron Man, Cap doesn't use their weaknesses against them, he simply fights, and wins with his strategy. He doesn't need to work it out beforehand.

Then like I said, Batman takes too long, he needs to develop something to win, he needs to develop a counter-measure, and he needs time to do it. I think a guy I met once put it nicely. If you tell Batman and Cap to kill a man who was going to conquer the entire world in a month-and their morals were removed-they'd go about it differently. Giving them the same info, same intel, they'd both come up with different results. Batman would analyze the data, spend about a week coming up with this analysis and then once he'd analyzed their every move, come up with every extra piece of info he could, he'd then spend another week working out the exact equipment he'd use, and then another working out his exact movements, and only then he'd move, and he'd do it without so much as a single witness.

Cap will calculate everything that night, and have a body on your desk by the next morning, 5 o'clock at the latest. That's the difference in their strategies, Cap simply calculates things faster, thinks them through faster, and he doesn't have so much tech to sift through, he just does it, and while more people might see him, he gets the job done faster and just as good, he just goes about the actual job differently.

In the end, as good as Batman is, his only real advantage is his versatility, and Cap's durability as well as his armor and shield work for him perfectly in that aspect.

The winner is Captain America.

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MuyJingo

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Simple listing of their abilities, observe, if you would.

Strength

Batman: 1000 lbs, possibly a bit more

Captain America: At his lowest, 1200, but in practice 5 tons at least, at most? 10 tons. He's been displayed easily overpowering people on this level, and has quite a few feats that could put him at 100 ton level, but I don't use PIS, which is what those were, but keep in mind they exist

So this puts Cap easily above Batman in strength, and at least should be able to overpower him, but let's keep going.

Nope. Your logic for Cap being stronger is that he overpowers stronger people...well, so does Batman. They have pretty much equal speed feats, in fact Batman may even have some better ones.

Speed

Batman: 26-30 MPH

Captain America: 50-60 MPH

This allows Cap to easily close the distance with Batman, bringing the fight into close quarters where Cap doesn't have to deal with many of Batman's toys.

His speed is stated at like 30MPH I think, and there is one silver age instance where he runs at 60MPH, and one tribute to the silver age issue where he runs at 50MPH. 2 examples, 1 from the silver age are hardly enough to his speed to be redefined.

Agility/Reflexes

Batman: 100 miliseconds maybe 80 miliseconds since this is comics, but no more.

Captain America: 4-5 miliseconds, At least 16x faster than Batman, at most? 25x faster. That means should Batman strike him, Cap's reflexes would allow him to dodge and retaliate much faster than Batman could react.

What is your basis for that? Batman has caught arrows, dodges bullets (on one occasion caught bullets)...

Durability

There are no numbers for this, but Cap would take it for the pure fact that, he takes more beatings than Batman, he survives larger-scale explosions, and tends to fight enemies like Iron Man-a 100+ tonner-and comes out fine.

Again, what is your basis for this? Batman survived in space for 23 seconds without a suit, regularly has taken beatings that should killl him, survives explosions etc.

Stamina

Captain America by far, Batman is human, he can get tired, Cap can't. If this turned into a war of attrition, Cap would take it.

This may be a point, but not practically. The fight would be over before either of them got tired, regardless of who wins.

Martial Prowess

Wash, both are masters of every single Martial Art, but if I had to, I'd give it more to Cap due to his experience with Asgardian, Olympian, Wakandan, and K'un-Lun fighting styles, though I don't know if Wonder Woman taught him Amazonian Martial Arts, or Superman Kryptonian, so it could easily wash once more.

Now, with pure strength Cap likely couldn't win against someone of Batman's skill, but with equal skill, that causes Cap to shoot up because he can then use the same techniques as Batman, plus more possibly, and he then has the strength to put out more damage, the reflexes to dodge more attacks, the durability to take more hits, and the stamina to keep hitting. That's what matters when two people are equal in skill on this level.

But then you also need to remember, Cap has a close-range weapon, which when it comes to Martial Arts, automatically gives someone a lethal advantage, sending Cap into the lead.

Um, Cap is about one tier below Batman in terms of martial arts mastery. Also, if we are including weapons, Batman has Cap outclassed.

Defensive/Offensive Equipment

Now with armor alone I'd wash this out again, as both are made of lightweight Titanium and can withstand massive punishment, but you also have to take Cap's shield into this since that sounds as defense, and as a Proto-Adamantium/Vibranium shield, with Uru to enhance it as well, Batman does not have one weapon that can pierce that shield in his arsenal. While it may not cover enough of his body, consider this.

Both of their armors themselves might be equal, but their weapons determine who will bust through what, Batman's weapons won't go through Cap's armor easily, it's fire retardant, electrical retardant, etc.... but Cap's shield, that's gone through Adamantium once before, and regularly goes through Titanium armors, including that of Iron Man-who's even complimented Cap on the durability of his armor before. Which means should both of their weapons impact the other's armor, Cap's armor will hold up, Batman's won't

He doesn't need to pierce the shield, he will just confiscate it.

Versatility

As much as Cap can use his shield for, and all he can do with it, he can't match Batman's versatility, not by a longshot, Batman can do too much with his many weapons and that gives him the win, and being able to throw multiple weapons at once can truly do some damage.

Logistics

Cap, and while you may question this one, Cap's ability to reuse his shield over and over again means that he's not running out of ammo any time soon, giving Cap the advantage in this match. Eventually, no matter how long it takes, Batman's going to run out of ammo.

What ammo are you talking about?

Batman's stealth

Now this category isn't just called 'Stealth', and you'll see why.

Batman is the master of stealth, very few have his abilities, he's a ninja and almost nobody can sense him, but nobody doesn't include Captain America.

The thing about Batman that people use is non-combat feats, sneaking around Superman when he's not paying attention, sneaking around other Superhumans when they're distracted with others and they can't focus on him. Besides, hearing his heartbeat doesn't work because not only does his armor quiet his heartbeat, but he has methods to slow it down, but Cap won't use that. Cap uses air currents and movement, and as someone with mass, Batman is subject to these. As he moves around, he interrupts natural air flow, and since two forces cannot occupy the same space at the same time, as Batman moves around he pushes around the air, and Cap can feel this disruption in currents, or the increase in force as Batman moves towards him, and can react to that, even in a smoke bomb he can do that and feel the movement and react. Not only that, but his eyes are enhanced to the point he'd sometimes been able to see perfectly in the dark with only the slightest bit of light around him. Even if both of those failed, this is a combat scenario and it's much harder not to make noise in combat and Cap could use that, easily. And then to really top it off, Cap's reflexes would make it entirely possible for him to simply grab Batman after the first strike and then wail on him, hard.

Since when can cap sense differences in air currents and be able to differentiate it from wind?

Strategy

Probably the biggest surprise to most people, Cap is the better strategist, as good a strategist as Batman is, as much as he can do with his mind, as much as he's done and he's worked for, it comes down to he's only human. It takes him time to come up with his best strategies. His strategies for the Justice League took weeks or months of prep and he tends to focus on an enemy's weak spot or something he can exploit, Cap doesn't have that when it comes down to it, at least not easily detectable. Cap's different, his strategies are more grounded in simply working the battlefield to his favor, fighting until there's an opening and taking it, you have Batman taking on Superman, Cap taking on Hulk, King Thor, Iron Man, Cap doesn't use their weaknesses against them, he simply fights, and wins with his strategy. He doesn't need to work it out beforehand.

Then like I said, Batman takes too long, he needs to develop something to win, he needs to develop a counter-measure, and he needs time to do it. I think a guy I met once put it nicely. If you tell Batman and Cap to kill a man who was going to conquer the entire world in a month-and their morals were removed-they'd go about it differently. Giving them the same info, same intel, they'd both come up with different results. Batman would analyze the data, spend about a week coming up with this analysis and then once he'd analyzed their every move, come up with every extra piece of info he could, he'd then spend another week working out the exact equipment he'd use, and then another working out his exact movements, and only then he'd move, and he'd do it without so much as a single witness.

Cap will calculate everything that night, and have a body on your desk by the next morning, 5 o'clock at the latest. That's the difference in their strategies, Cap simply calculates things faster, thinks them through faster, and he doesn't have so much tech to sift through, he just does it, and while more people might see him, he gets the job done faster and just as good, he just goes about the actual job differently.

In the end, as good as Batman is, his only real advantage is his versatility, and Cap's durability as well as his armor and shield work for him perfectly in that aspect.

Batman is a better strategist. Certainly in a short fight like this is.

The winner is Captain AmericaBatman.

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conner_wolf

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@muyjingo: Except, you're wrong.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101999/3031680-captainamerica_vol3_10_03.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/101999/3031681-captainamerica_vol3_10_04.jpg

Keeping up hundreds of tons of rubble above his head, entire buildings collapsing on him, but I won't use these, just keep them in mind.

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/2944/captainamericadmr2of303zm4.jpg

More realistic strength are feats like this, hauling a truck through the desert that weighs maybe, 3 tons?

http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/raykongs/media/Capboxingagainstsuperhuman_zps776953d9.jpg.html

He has enough strength to take on Superhuman opponents, regularly

http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/raykongs/media/CappressurepointUSAgent1_zpsd873b266.jpg.html

He's able to catch the punch of US Agent, a 10-tonner, oh, and he also had the ability to mimic his strength regularly when posing as him.

http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/raykongs/media/CapdefeatsRhino1_zpscd7ef959.jpg.html

And he can take out 70-tonners with pure strength and skill

http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/raykongs/media/CapdefeatsRhino2_zps0373e21c.jpg.html

He was able to overpower Namor underwater

http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/raykongs/media/CapforcesunderwaterNamortolosegrip_zps157d8077.jpg.html

Pulled down a helicopter in full lift

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/raykongs/Cappullsdownhelicopter_zpsa193ea57.png

Knocks out another 10-tonner

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb410/raykongs/Capknocksout10-tonnerJohnWalker_zps806bfe87.jpg

Annihilates a Superhuman Kree

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/247/capownskreelg4.jpg

He can rip apart steel androids easily-at least as durable as a tank

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/6751/captainamericavol31316fv4.jpg

Holds up more debris

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8959/captainamerica36918gc4.jpg

He carries a telephone pole-about 1,200-over his shoulder

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8959/captainamerica36918gc4.jpg

Overpowers Lady Octopus

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/362/secretwar41314zh0.jpg

Restraints Wolverine-a 2 tonner

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5554/captainamericav1404ocd1.jpg

Twice

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/940/wolverineorigins04page1.jpg

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1571/wolverineorigins04page1b.jpg

He bent the flaps of a jet

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/6562/captainamericavol31019sv2.jpg

Closes nuclear launch doors

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/captainamericavol31222pg8.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/captainamericavol31223sq0.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/captainamericavol31224rb3.jpg/

Oh, and opens up another set of doors

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/100/hrironmanv200610rougherki0.jpg

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/100/hrironmanv200613rougherpp2.jpg

http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/53/hrironmanv200616rougherqs1.jpg

Easily deflects a statue that weighs about a ton.

http://imageshack.us/a/img100/6794/captainamerica256p13hi7.jpg

All of these feats put him at a multi-tonner at least.

Batman doesn't overpower stronger enemies through force, he does so by outsmarting them and using his skill to parry attacks, most of my feats here are brute force.

Captain America's stated speed is normally around 50 MPH, and when he's under duress, 60 MPH.

Batman dodges via point-dodging most of the time, and he's still human, my basis is that humans realistically can only have a reaction speed of a hundred miliseconds, in comics it'd be acceptable to go to 50 miliseconds even, but still 10x slower than Cap's.

Again, my basis is that Batman is only human and he can be hurt by strong punches or strikes. Cap has tanked hits from Spider-Man straight to the jaw and shown little or no resistance. Their durability isn't a huge leap, but I'd give the advantage to Cap purely because he seems to fight more opponents in the multi-ton range and take their blows, Batman doesn't, his strongest enemy is probably Killer Croc, but he rarely lands hits on Batman.

Wrong, again, Captain America is a master of every single Martial Art on Earth, he's listed as a Master, the only people above him in Martial Prowess are those with either chi manipulation, have access to Martial Arts he doesn't, or something like that. Black Panther is a good example, but he's also a master of every single Martial Art on Earth, plus Martial Arts from Wakanda. Cap has beaten many masters of every single Martial Art, he's beaten Black Panther before, stalemated T'Chaka, I don't give half a shit what Batman fans say to put Cap down, he is a master of every single Martial Art, and not only that, but he's developed his own martial arts because the others simply don't measure up to his skill level, that easily puts Cap above Batman. And I was talking about purely melee weapons which Batman doesn't utilize as much, and Cap's shield is the supreme melee weapon here.

And do enlighten me, how do you think he'll take the shield? Cause he won't, if it was as easy as take the shield, he would have done it already.

Batman's ammo, in his utility belt, he only has so many batarangs, so many smoke bombs, etc...

That last comment of yours is just a blatant lie, until you provide proof Batman is a better strategist, I'm sticking with Cap being superior. Like I said, Batman needs time to develop strategies, Cap can do it immediately, his brain processes things faster, that alone puts him heads and shoulders above Batman. If it takes Batman an extra thirty seconds to come up with a plan as opposed to Cap, who came up with it in three, then that's thirty seconds he needs to come up with another plan once Cap counters his first plan. Cap is just more easily able to come up with different strategies in combat.

The winner is, and will always be, Captain America.

I'm tired of Batman fans insisting the perpetrated stereotypes that Batman is superior in everything, and no one can be a better Martial Artist, and no one can have better strategy, just look at the facts in front of you and accept them. If you have facts of your own, please, feel free to share, but you can't just disregard every fact I've put down and go "Batman's the better strategist, period" because I'm not going to listen to you.

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MuyJingo

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Edited By MuyJingo

@conner_wolf: Not wrong at all. You are just using PIS feat and are not familiar enough with Batman's feats.

The 'facts' you present are just opinions. I've argued this at length with some very knowledgeable cap fans and none have made a good argument.

Instead of just posting more caps and getting into the same old argument (Cap fans rely HEAVILY on PIS), I can just link you to a couple of threads.

When both characters are held to the same standards, with or without PIS feats included, they are shown to be equal physically with batman having an edge in martial arts and weapons. That's why he wins.

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conner_wolf

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@muyjingo: So according to you, every feat, every occurrence that would put him above Batman is PIS... Yeah, seems legit.

Batman is literally built on PIS, that's the basis for his entire character. He's a Mary Sue in every respect and if you take away his plot armor, every single feat he has would go away. You wanna argue what's PIS? I'll argue what's PIS.

First of all, he's human, he shouldn't e able to lift 1000 lbs, more like around 400 like Marvel's street-level characters.

Moving so quietly Superman can't hear him? So anyone with superhearing can't hear him? PIS

Always defeating opponents and just so happening to find their specific weakness to beat them? PIS

The fact Batman can even stand with any member of the Justice League? PIS

When both characters actually have their feats displayed, and Batman fans like you don't whine and cry every time they're proven wrong, Cap beats Batman, every time.

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MuyJingo

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@muyjingo: So according to you, every feat, every occurrence that would put him above Batman is PIS... Yeah, seems legit.

Batman is literally built on PIS, that's the basis for his entire character. He's a Mary Sue in every respect and if you take away his plot armor, every single feat he has would go away. You wanna argue what's PIS? I'll argue what's PIS.

First of all, he's human, he shouldn't e able to lift 1000 lbs, more like around 400 like Marvel's street-level characters.

Moving so quietly Superman can't hear him? So anyone with superhearing can't hear him? PIS

Always defeating opponents and just so happening to find their specific weakness to beat them? PIS

The fact Batman can even stand with any member of the Justice League? PIS

When both characters actually have their feats displayed, and Batman fans like you don't whine and cry every time they're proven wrong, Cap beats Batman, every time.

I'm not whining or crying, the only one doing that here is you.

PIS is not defined by what you personally considered believable, it is defined by consistency.

It is hard to believe that a human could sneak as quietly as Batman does so meta-humans can't hear him, yet he does it. You're right, he shouldn't be able to lift as much as he does, but he regularly, consistently does.

Batman holding up rubble, going against multi-tonners, etc..all the feats you posted Batman has a match for. It's only when people resort to PIS feats for one side that one side has ad advantage.

Again, if you look at both characters objectively, their feats show them to be physically equal, like it or lump it.

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conner_wolf

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@muyjingo: I provide feats and proof, evidence that Cap is superior, your immediate cry is "PIS!", that's whining.

Batman hasn't held up the rubble of a Skyscraper that at the lightest would be 100 tons, thousands is the much more likely weight. Instead, Batman held up a ceiling, that's it.

And if you look at both characters objectively instead of disregarding every consistent feat of strength from Cap, then you see Cap is clearly physically superior, and if you had actually read my comment before, you'd see that they are equals when it comes to Martial Prowess, neither is superior to the other.

And like I said before, Batman tends to use his Martial Arts and deception against Multi-tonners, he doesn't just catch their punches and then match then equally in a contest of strength, as Cap consistently does. How on Earth can you claim Cap's strength is not consistent when he does it all the time? That's just stupid. Honestly, no offense, but if I was able to post over two dozen scans of him performing feats of strength like that, he can do it no matter how much you scream out PIS.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/10/103165/2789599-cap_vs_bp1.jpg

And I simply missed this one, in a fight with Black Panther, he was able to use wind currents to determine his location once he moved.

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MuyJingo

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@conner_wolf: Wow do you have a distored view of things.

I didn't cry PIS, I mentioned that the only way Cap is better is if you include his PIS feats and ignore Batman's.

You didn't provide proof of Cap being superior, you provided proof of Cap. As I said, Batman has matching feats. Go check the Batman feats blog or a previous discussion in the Captain America forum where I already provided feats, I don't see the need to so again when you have yet to make an argument instead of just insisting.

Batman has held up the rubble from a skyscraper, prevented a roof from collapsing etc. At least twice. Like I said, you're not familiar with batman.

And you're wrong. Batman is a better martial artist. Cap is about a tier below.

You're obviously not familiar with Batman, since you keep insisting he just dodges and doesn't take attacks, isn't physically impressive etc and are not aware of his feats. Go read through some other posts, look at some Batman feats, and then once you are actually familiar with both characters you might be able to make an argument.

Till now, your just crying, which isn't worth replying to anymore.

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Edited By conner_wolf

@muyjingo: Again, I am well aware of Batman's feats of strength, and I see a good reason, because I'm not going through this entire thread to hunt down your list of feats. Honestly, it's not that hard to post what you want me to read again,.

Saying "Batman is better" over and over again will not sway me. You keep on saying I'm not making an argument, but you aren't giving me anything. If you're so confident, give me something, I'm working with nothing here. It's not that hard. If you really find it that hard to repost it, I'll just take that as enough evidence that you have nothing to begin with.

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@conner_wolf: Swearing and insults are not allowed on ComicVine. First warning.

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@conner_wolf: You're supposed to read the site rules before you start to post. That's not an excuse.

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@saren: I was apologizing, geez

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clownprinceofcrime1995

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Simple listing of their abilities, observe, if you would.

Strength

Batman: 1000 lbs, possibly a bit more

Captain America: At his lowest, 1200, but in practice 5 tons at least, at most? 10 tons. He's been displayed easily overpowering people on this level, and has quite a few feats that could put him at 100 ton level, but I don't use PIS, which is what those were, but keep in mind they exist

So this puts Cap easily above Batman in strength, and at least should be able to overpower him, but let's keep going.

Speed

Batman: 26-30 MPH

Captain America: 50-60 MPH

This allows Cap to easily close the distance with Batman, bringing the fight into close quarters where Cap doesn't have to deal with many of Batman's toys.

Agility/Reflexes

Batman: 100 miliseconds maybe 80 miliseconds since this is comics, but no more.

Captain America: 4-5 miliseconds, At least 16x faster than Batman, at most? 25x faster. That means should Batman strike him, Cap's reflexes would allow him to dodge and retaliate much faster than Batman could react.

Durability

There are no numbers for this, but Cap would take it for the pure fact that, he takes more beatings than Batman, he survives larger-scale explosions, and tends to fight enemies like Iron Man-a 100+ tonner-and comes out fine.

Stamina

Captain America by far, Batman is human, he can get tired, Cap can't. If this turned into a war of attrition, Cap would take it.

Martial Prowess

Wash, both are masters of every single Martial Art, but if I had to, I'd give it more to Cap due to his experience with Asgardian, Olympian, Wakandan, and K'un-Lun fighting styles, though I don't know if Wonder Woman taught him Amazonian Martial Arts, or Superman Kryptonian, so it could easily wash once more.

Now, with pure strength Cap likely couldn't win against someone of Batman's skill, but with equal skill, that causes Cap to shoot up because he can then use the same techniques as Batman, plus more possibly, and he then has the strength to put out more damage, the reflexes to dodge more attacks, the durability to take more hits, and the stamina to keep hitting. That's what matters when two people are equal in skill on this level.

But then you also need to remember, Cap has a close-range weapon, which when it comes to Martial Arts, automatically gives someone a lethal advantage, sending Cap into the lead.

Defensive/Offensive Equipment

Now with armor alone I'd wash this out again, as both are made of lightweight Titanium and can withstand massive punishment, but you also have to take Cap's shield into this since that sounds as defense, and as a Proto-Adamantium/Vibranium shield, with Uru to enhance it as well, Batman does not have one weapon that can pierce that shield in his arsenal. While it may not cover enough of his body, consider this.

Both of their armors themselves might be equal, but their weapons determine who will bust through what, Batman's weapons won't go through Cap's armor easily, it's fire retardant, electrical retardant, etc.... but Cap's shield, that's gone through Adamantium once before, and regularly goes through Titanium armors, including that of Iron Man-who's even complimented Cap on the durability of his armor before. Which means should both of their weapons impact the other's armor, Cap's armor will hold up, Batman's won't

Versatility

As much as Cap can use his shield for, and all he can do with it, he can't match Batman's versatility, not by a longshot, Batman can do too much with his many weapons and that gives him the win, and being able to throw multiple weapons at once can truly do some damage.

Logistics

Cap, and while you may question this one, Cap's ability to reuse his shield over and over again means that he's not running out of ammo any time soon, giving Cap the advantage in this match. Eventually, no matter how long it takes, Batman's going to run out of ammo.

Batman's stealth

Now this category isn't just called 'Stealth', and you'll see why.

Batman is the master of stealth, very few have his abilities, he's a ninja and almost nobody can sense him, but nobody doesn't include Captain America.

The thing about Batman that people use is non-combat feats, sneaking around Superman when he's not paying attention, sneaking around other Superhumans when they're distracted with others and they can't focus on him. Besides, hearing his heartbeat doesn't work because not only does his armor quiet his heartbeat, but he has methods to slow it down, but Cap won't use that. Cap uses air currents and movement, and as someone with mass, Batman is subject to these. As he moves around, he interrupts natural air flow, and since two forces cannot occupy the same space at the same time, as Batman moves around he pushes around the air, and Cap can feel this disruption in currents, or the increase in force as Batman moves towards him, and can react to that, even in a smoke bomb he can do that and feel the movement and react. Not only that, but his eyes are enhanced to the point he'd sometimes been able to see perfectly in the dark with only the slightest bit of light around him. Even if both of those failed, this is a combat scenario and it's much harder not to make noise in combat and Cap could use that, easily. And then to really top it off, Cap's reflexes would make it entirely possible for him to simply grab Batman after the first strike and then wail on him, hard.

Strategy

Probably the biggest surprise to most people, Cap is the better strategist, as good a strategist as Batman is, as much as he can do with his mind, as much as he's done and he's worked for, it comes down to he's only human. It takes him time to come up with his best strategies. His strategies for the Justice League took weeks or months of prep and he tends to focus on an enemy's weak spot or something he can exploit, Cap doesn't have that when it comes down to it, at least not easily detectable. Cap's different, his strategies are more grounded in simply working the battlefield to his favor, fighting until there's an opening and taking it, you have Batman taking on Superman, Cap taking on Hulk, King Thor, Iron Man, Cap doesn't use their weaknesses against them, he simply fights, and wins with his strategy. He doesn't need to work it out beforehand.

Then like I said, Batman takes too long, he needs to develop something to win, he needs to develop a counter-measure, and he needs time to do it. I think a guy I met once put it nicely. If you tell Batman and Cap to kill a man who was going to conquer the entire world in a month-and their morals were removed-they'd go about it differently. Giving them the same info, same intel, they'd both come up with different results. Batman would analyze the data, spend about a week coming up with this analysis and then once he'd analyzed their every move, come up with every extra piece of info he could, he'd then spend another week working out the exact equipment he'd use, and then another working out his exact movements, and only then he'd move, and he'd do it without so much as a single witness.

Cap will calculate everything that night, and have a body on your desk by the next morning, 5 o'clock at the latest. That's the difference in their strategies, Cap simply calculates things faster, thinks them through faster, and he doesn't have so much tech to sift through, he just does it, and while more people might see him, he gets the job done faster and just as good, he just goes about the actual job differently.

In the end, as good as Batman is, his only real advantage is his versatility, and Cap's durability as well as his armor and shield work for him perfectly in that aspect.

The winner is Captain America.

Strength you're using PIS feats for cap and not for bruce and overpowering doesn't count. They are bother reliably 1000-2000lbs each

Speed Batman is classed as above olympic level in every sport. so he's min 40+Mph.

Agility slight edge to cap, reflexes = Bruce (catching bulleeeeeets)

Durability cap has a healing factor but Bruces sheer will and feats he has backing this up shows he can fight under a lot more pain than steve and can take a lot more.

Stamina. Steve has a slight advantage but bats can fight for over 3 days without rest so it's not gonna be a factor

Martial arts. Cap gets his ass handed to him several times over on this i'm afraid

Versatility, logistics, stealth and strategy all go to Bats. It's his bread and butter and he's a lot better at all of them than cap. Did i mention Bats disappeared from someone whilst in their line of sight? Yeah that happened.

Bats stomps due to gear.

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conner_wolf

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Edited By conner_wolf

@clownprinceofcrime1995: If he performs them regularly, they aren't PIS, even then, Batman doesn't have nearly as many feats, maybe one or two that put him above 1000, meanwhile I have what? A dozen or so that put him at a multi-tonner? The strength edge definitely goes to Cap. Feats trump everything. You can't just call something PIS because it goes against what you believe.

Olympic level runners can run 26 MPH max, that's the maximum speed we've seen an Olympic level runner sprint, so 30, give or take a few miles, would be reasonable. Even then, Cap is still faster.

Yeah, first of all, when has Bruce caught bullets? Second, Cap sidesteps bullets pretty easily, and is fully capable of catching bullets if he wanted to. If you can just step out of the way of a bullet with ease after it's fired, you have faster reflexes. He moves faster than bullets, and has caught bullets once or twice before. He's deflect a missile with his shield, he caught a missile before. Catching missiles>Catching bullets.

That's not true, Cap has ripped open his own stomach and he survived getting shot by a sniper rifle, and was still able to move. Cap also has willpower to keep going.

Yeah, 3 days, vs never needing rest, big advantage.

Ya know, I hear everyone just say "Batman is better at Martial Arts" but both are masters of every single Martial Art, Cap had to make his own Martial Art because all of the other Martial Arts didn't add up, so if you really want to talk about who gets steamrolled, how about that? He's too good for normal Martial Arts.

Batman does not get an edge in logistics. A shield that can be constantly reused, vs a utility belt that has a limited ammo capacity. There's a limit to how many batarangs he can carry on his person.

I already stated how Cap could counter Batman's stealth, vision doesn't matter, even though Cap's vision is also enhanced and he can practically see in the dark.

Again, Captain America's mind is also enhanced to 100%, and he can remember every strategy he's ever seen, and he can come up with strategies far faster than Batman. Most of Batman's really in-depth strategies take weeks or months for him to come up with, one look at Batman and Cap would already have about ten strategies in store for him.

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clownprinceofcrime1995

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Batman has plenty of multiton feats and caps big feats are one offs.

26MPH average over 100m. Top speed is faster than average.

Ok so 127 martial arts against captain-fu? Is that like superman vs Hulkdo? Or Wolverate? Just because he made his own doesn't make him as skilled. He combined like 3. Batman uses 127 and has adapted killing blows to KO. Also he has a vastly greater knowledge of pressure points etc.

Logistics doesn't mean ammo. Ammo wise he can get batwing drop offs if needed.

Cap has no reasonable way to take away batman a stealth. He's hid from better trackers than Cap.

To outdo bats in strategy on the spot you need someone of Jokers Level (which cap is below) with weeks of prep.

How does cap counter:

Cryo pellets to feet

Smoke

Super sonics

Bat kick KO

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deactivated-6137545428734

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I predict a flame war coming...

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Edited By pleasuremachine

I hate when ppl say that cap is full of PIS when it counts toward strength, not only is connorwolf right.. about cap(I do have a few things to add though), you are all wrong if u think cap's showings are PIS since he does them regularly and thinking that batman isnt on PIS at all when most of his showings are. Yes, it was true batman beat Cap in JLA/Avengers Crossover due to PIS and luck(he also beat hulk, we can tell it is even more PIS from there)... Cap is durable enough to take that hit from the batarang, he missed his shield throw(?) which never happens, takes hits from superhumans on the usual, and that part was written by a DC writer who obviously wanted batman to be better than marvel characters(so you can count this "battle" out of your evidence fanboys). Cap's base strength is a ton or more.. Marvel has said under duress that he can go to 2 tons yet cap has held up buildings, beat cable who acknowledges that cap is faster, stronger, and 3x his endurace(who fights at faster than light speed, 10 ton+ strength, superhuman endurance), KO'ed hulk in 616 from H2H and many others, and has ripped off steel effortlessely whether it was a robot or handcuffs. Cap has beaten multiple opponents who are faster than light and dodges, blocks, and is capable of hitting these ppl easily. Cap know all martial arts known to man and some from other planets as well as his own fighting style, his enhanced mind allows him eidetic memory and he is a genius (probably even better mind than Tony Stark if he picked up a book on programming)which has allowed him to strategize on the spot in a second. Batmans gadgets are useless(freeze grenade, poison, KO gas, smoke, super sonics, etc.. since cap has taken those on). Even if Bats does hit Cap, cap will heal in a second( even healed from a bullet in the head in 7 secs once ). Basically Cap is better than batman in every physical attribute greatly and more skilled in H2H(he employs them all, not just his fighting style). Try Cap vs DS (which im sure cap will win btw), they are more similar than the guy in bat underwear.

That said Cap wins with a punch to the head or even deadlier.. a shield bash.

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Too close to call