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Does Batman always win? Batman vs Captain America

Steve Rogers versus Bruce Wayne is without question one of the most heated debates in comic book history. Does Batman "always win" or is the super soldier going to take him down? We provide our thoughts!


Place your bets.

"Batman always wins. Why? Because... he's Batman."

That's an on-going joke surrounding the character, but I thought I'd take it a step further and have some fun with the statement. "Does Batman always win?" will hopefully be a monthly feature where I'll pit Batman in close match ups, weigh the advantages of each combatant, and then declare a winner (just like I did with Movie Dredd vs Movie Batman). The battle will always be standard comic book versions with their standard gear and it will take place in a neutral setting: a traditional and unpopulated city block at night. This will be a random encounter with ample starting distance. That means there's no prep!

Don't make him "one punch!" you, Hal.

Why Batman? Batman is simply a human at the end of the day, and that makes his accomplishments that much more impressive. Not only is Batman one of the most well known comic book characters around, he also demands your respect as a combatant. Even if you don't like him, you still have to admire the fact that he's extraordinary skilled, brilliant and has a huge array of equipment packed away in that belt of his. He can hang with some of the best and most dangerous street level characters around, and since that's the level I'm the most knowledgeable on, I'm excited for many of the matches I have in store for all of you (I'm welcome to suggestions, too!).

I present to you my first "Does Batman always win?" segment: Batman vs Captain America. Both are accomplished tacticians and highly talented combatants, but they each bring drastically different advantages to the table. They've faced before in non-canon crossovers and both times they were pretty evenly matched. Do I agree with that or do I think one should clearly be the victor? Read on to find out!

Captain America's advantages

There's no bat spray to counter a shield to the face.

Bruce Wayne has reached peak human condition with years of dedicated training. He was chopping through bricks and kicking down trees at just 25 years-old, but despite being beyond what any real-life human is capable of, Captain America is still his physical superior. Thanks to the Super-Soldier Serum, Captain America is technically defined as enhanced human and this provides him with strength, speed and endurance above The Dark Knight.

Captain America has been seen bench pressing 1,100 lbs and is capable of running a mile in just over a minute. While top running speed isn't the most critical factor, it still plays a role and proves that given the opportunity, Steve Rogers can absolutely keep pace with Bruce Wayne. In fights, strength is always a big factor. It means strikes can be more powerful and he can overcome in the event of a grapple. And with endurance, it obviously means the Super-Soldier won't fatigue as quickly as Wayne. That's not to discredit Wayne in that regard, of course. The events of 'Knightfall' prove Wayne can push his body to absurd limits, but Captain America simply has the unfair advantage of the SSS.

Agility that shouldn't be underestimated.

On top of being physically superior, Captain America has the perfect offensive/defensive weapon at his disposal: a virtually unbreakable shield. In Cap's hands, the shield is a colorful weapon worthy of your fear. Not only can he wield it incredibly well when it comes to striking his opponent in close combat, but he can also throw it with a ridiculous amount of accuracy (he's managed to turn off a lighter on the floor), has the technical mind needed to calculate amazing ricochet shots, and can use it to block a majority of incoming attacks. To me, ricochet shots are quite a wildcard worth taking into account here. The disc to the back of the head or torso is sure to throw someone (yes, even Batman) off their game.

Additionally, Captain America has made the claim that he can simply "see faster" than regular humans, and that grants him the reflexes to use the weapon with incredibly efficiency when it comes to defensive measures. That's going to be key here considering Batman has the edge in hand-to-hand capabilities.

Naturally, Captain America has some experience facing characters similar to Batman. He's had a few fights with Daredevil (though most have had significant factors) and had no real trouble holding his own (in all of them except for the recent one in Waid's DD), taken down Taskmaster, has proven to be roughly equal to Black Panther, and had a close encounter with classic Iron Fist.

Batman's advantages

Can skill overcome physicals?

While Captain America has Batman outclassed physically and has one incredibly resourceful weapon, Bruce Wayne has some praise worthy advantages of his own. First and foremost, Batman is more skilled than Captain America. Rogers is very talented in his own right (once claimed to be adept at every style), but Batman has a level of skill that few street levelers can compete with. Somehow through years of extensive studying, his Bat brain has "perfected every known fighting discipline." (JLA: The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America). Not only is he more talented than Rogers in unarmed combat,but Dick Grayson has also made the claim that Wayne knows every single pressure point -- and we've seen Wayne disable foes with nerve strikes quite a few times before.

Shoryuken!

But, this isn't unarmed combat. Captain America has his shield and luckily for Batman, he has a wealthy amount of weaponry at his disposal. While Captain America has just one weapon (albeit an impressive one), The Dark Knight has variety on his side. America's super soldier has no counter for a cryo pellet, various gases, smoke pellets, light explosives and electric attacks. That's barely even scratching the surface of what Wayne can implement in combat, too.

Smoke pellets can further compliment Batman's already beyond impressive stealth capabilities as well. Batman has flawlessly vanished while he was right in the target's line of sight. To me, this totally defies logic, but it's a consistent feat in his career and therefore something he can do on a regular basis. If needed, Batman can use this environment to his advantage with proper use of his smoke pellets and grappling line. From there, it's a game of ninja cat versus steroids cat. Batman can regain the edge thanks to his stealth, but at the same rate, there's no guarantee the strike will be a critical game changer.

Batman has an extensive history of fighting characters physically superior to him. Deathstroke would be a prime example of this (since he's also enhanced). While Deathstroke has made short work of him, it's worth noting that Batman didn't implement his gear and Slade Wilson is, as he bluntly stated himself, more vicious and trained to kill. While Rogers has no problem crossing that line when required, it's not in character for him to be that aggressive in this encounter. Then there's Bane, a man of course less powerful than Captain America (off venom since that's how a majority of their fights went down), but still Batman has been able to overcome him thanks to his greater talent in martial arts.

The Verdict

Flip a coin.

Of course these characters fluctuate from writer to writer, but I believe that written to their full potential and thrown into this scenario, the outcome would be a stalemate. To think either has a blatant advantage to make the outcome obvious is simply false to me. Both bring valuable aspects to the table and it's completely logical to see either taking it. While Batman has the edge in skill, it by no means renders him untouchable to Cap, and one clean connect from his enhanced level strength or shield (be it a strike or ricochet) holds the potential to turn the tide. Meanwhile, Batman's stealth abilities and massive array of equipment that Cap has no immediate counter for are equally big wild cards to me. I legitimately believe it's entirely conceivable for either to be the victor in this case.

G-Man's thoughts

"I would say, even though Batman is supposed to win, you could expect Cap to win. ESPECIALLY because of The New 52. It just seems Cap has way more experience taking on a large variety of threats with many on a galactic level.

Batman, we have to assume, hasn't dealt with too many foes outside of his rogues gallery. Yes he fought Darkseid in JUSTICE LEAGUE 1-6 but what other huge threats did he face? Has he lead the JL on many missions or other teams? Cap has more experience and is prepared to go up against foes like Ultron, Kang the Conqueror and even Galactus. There's always the infamous "prep" time but unless Batman defeats him quickly, Cap would have the skills to keep dodging his attacks and the stamina to outlast Batman."

Who do you think would win and why? Sound off!

Gregg Katzman is a freelance writer for Comic Vine and IGN Entertainment. If this feature does well, expect another one next month! Be sure to follow him on Twitter for early spoilers every week about Rants & Raves and Best Battles!

707 Comments
Posted by Azura_Thena

@azura_thena said:

I did address that. I am sorry that you find my response below satisfaction but to be honest, I can say the same exact thing about how you have treated every single person here that disagrees with you.

If you do not care to convince others, that is fine too… but that just means you are here to verbally abuse others and that is not fine.

The righteous one strikes again. Telling us all what we can and can't say, and discrediting all our arguments by claims of "rudeness" and flags, thus ensuring her self-proclaimed superiority! Thank god she's here, otherwise, we might have a forum with free exchange and expression! How scary would that be?

Also, regardless of whether Cap is an "enhanced" human, or a "peak" human, Batman would still destroy him. It's not about who has the physical edge, Batman has the intellect, he's the brilliant strategist, the Odysseus of the caped comic world; he will always find a way to win, regardless of what strength and/or powers his opponent may possess.

It is not okay to verbally abuse someone here according to the rules. Are you saying that you should be allowed to verbally assault users here? I imagine the best chance you would have for that is to make a pitch to the staff on the subject, since they are the ones that created this site and do make the decisions on what is safe and what is not. You seem to dislike that I report bullying. Why might that be?

Your opinion that Batman will always win because he is Batman is flawed logic. Batman has lost before and will lose in the future, despite being Batman. Captain America has the physicals necessary to overcome Batman's technical knowledge. Let's not forget, Marvel has decided to label Captain America a brilliant strategist as well as his mind also enjoys the benefits of the super soldier serum.

Posted by Durakken

Captain America is a peak average human specimen military trained. In other words, if it is a common human trait then it is at it's peak in Captain America. He can for example accumulate and use knowledge at I'd say around a 140-160 IQ. Higher than that isn't Peak Average. He doesn't have eidetic memory and he isn't "smart" which does ultimately lower his IQ. Smart is knowing a lot while Intelligence is usage and understanding more or less. He can't magic Smarts into his brain so even though he would be a pretty good scientist he isn't because he doesn't accumulate that knowledge. Because knowledge effects intelligence it lowers his intelligence, but not what he is physically doing.

Batman on the other hand is a peak human pushing his skills to the max of whatever he was born with. He does have eidetic memory and heals faster due to different training techniques. He was also trained in multiple ways, regimental (ie militaristic) and martial. His knowledge is what gives him a giant IQ, but he probably has a speed of understanding and such more around the 130-140 IQ range in terms of natural abilities

If we were to have each take a swing at each other and then wait for them to heal. Captain America would heal first.

If we were to have them play a game neither of them had ever played before that wasn't based on anything and didn't resemble anything Captain America would likely win.

However, the problem is that you're never going to be in those situations. Batman knows all of Cap's moves and once Cap has used anything Batman doesn't know Batman has a perfect recollection of it. So in a fight we're looking at Batman who is a non-average peak human who knows everything his opponent is going to throw at him verse an average peak human who only knows a fraction of what his opponent could throw at him. Batman clearly wins in a straight fight with no gear.

With gear and with non-dueling Captain America was trained as a soldier and in that case he works best with a team and tends to take direct path tactics as well as has his Shield which isn't that much of a threat. Batman on the other hand has been trained in diversionary tactics, has many devices that can counter caps shield and anything cap could throw at him, and would generally use non-direct attacks that would ultimately wear down Cap. There's also an issues of mental and physical stamina. Cap isn't a mental stamina guy. He's not used long periods of battle and multiple encounters against varying levels of enemies. Batman is. I think this is fairly clear cut that Batman would win this as well, but there are some long shot possibilities that cap could win.

2 more comparisons:

Pre-training Bruce and pre-serum Steve, Bruce would win.

On just physical capabilities. If we were to keep their physical training so that they are still peak and have the same mental abilities but remove their knowledge, Captain America would win.

Posted by Veshark

@durakken

Note that I'm not arguing in favor of either character, just addressing some points:

- I do believe that Cap has eidetic memory. Now, I can't confirm this, but I think it was stated in one of those Theater of War issues. If anyone could confirm this, that would be great.

- While Cap does not quite possess the library of knowledge that Bats has in regards to fighting skill, the Serum does make up for it. Black Panther (who like Bruce, has trained since his childhood days and who knows like a hundred styles) once fought Cap, and noted that Cap was able to 'instinctively adapt to every situation and fighting style'. Cap was once able to beat an enemy who had 'every fighting style cataloged' in his brain.

- You're severely underestimating Cap's mental stamina, to be frank. We're talking about a man who served nearly nonstop in nearly every theater of WWII, fighting both soldiers and superhumans. It wasn't urban vigilantism, it was war. It's practically the definition of 'long periods of battle and multiple encounters against varying levels of enemies'. This is the man with enough mental willpower to overcome Skull using Xavier's brain.

Posted by Durakken

@veshark:

-Cap also has recovered from being frozen which shows an above peak level healing, but that is more due to the fact that when the story was told we didn't know any better. The same applies to Eidetic memory. It doesn't actually exist. There is something that is close to that, but it's not what we would call photographic (eidetic) memory.

- Black Panther is not a good basis for comparison because regardless of the number of styles claimed. This is because Black Panther is isolated and obviously never learned from masters of outside styles or were all developed in the same small space which means there would be a lot of similarities between the differing styles. But the important part is not so much that Cap can adapt, which is something I take into consideration, it's a matter of Batman would be able to switch and adapt much more rapidly simply due to more experience with that type of person and thus not only predicting Caps moves but also predicting how he would adapt and predicting beyond that. It is true that Cap could possibly catch up to the adaptation/prediction, but I simply don't think he would do it before Batman beat him. Nor do I think that the situation would be better if it was a second encounter because there are just physiological things that aren't "peak" and mental things that aren't just knowledge/intelligence. I think Cap has a greater chance of winning after repeat battles, but never enough to get a higher than 49% chance of winning.

- While it is true that Cap did participate in WW2 he didn't in the way that it was mentally draining. He generally wasn't in trenches for months at a time and he wasn't battling day in and day out and from what I know he was almost never facing different levels of threats, but rather just the same level of threat, which in comparison to what he now faces and what Batman faces on a daily basis is more or less fodder level.

As to the defeating the skull using Xavier's brain... The brain is a muscle. Xavier brain is a giant muscle so that doesn't say anything.

My opinion is that the best way for Cap to win vs Batman is if you give Batman amnesia or put Batman in a sub-optimal condition which isn't all that hard to do over all...

Posted by Veshark

@durakken

- I don't know what you're getting at. As I said earlier, I can't confirm this, but I vaguely remember an issue stating that Cap does have eidetic memory - or perfect recall. The Serum doesn't just enhance the body, it also enhances the mind.

- You don't know much about BP, do you? T'Challa has been training to be a warrior since he was a child, and was constantly tested, he started even earlier than Bruce. He traveled the world as a teen too, and has personally stated to have 'mastered every martial arts style'. He's basically Batman Plus. Regardless, I'm not saying 'Cap beat BP so he can beat Bruce'. I'm saying that the comment by BP about Cap being able to adapt, and BP being impressed, does say a thing or two about Cap's skill considering BP's stature.

Now I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'm just pointing out that the Serum does provide not just physical, but also mental enhancements to Cap. And that these enhancements have often aided him in defeating martial arts combatants who might have a higher level of skill.

- He was battling day in and day out, moving from one location to the next for one mission after the other. War and combat are mentally draining - it is not a fact you can deny. He has fought in trenches, and has come across as sorts of threats. In WWII, he fought a giant Sleeper robot in Latveria and constantly went up against superhumans like Master Man, Namor, and even Atlanteans. He was not fighting 'fodder-level' enemies alone, we're talking about a soldier who has been fighting all his life, and was fighting when the concept of 'superhumans' had just been introduced in the MU.

And I'm not talking about Xavier's brain being a 'muscle', I'm talking about it being the mind of one of the most powerful telepaths in the MU, and Cap having the mental willpower to resist it. If you want another feat, after his consciousness was thrown into time and Cap was forced to relive all of his worst memories, he was still able to summon the mental strength to overpower Red Skull mentally and seize control of his body. Cap has proven time and again that he has incredible will.

Posted by Durakken

@veshark:

- My point is that just cuz it has said it or they've allowed it once doesn't necessarily mean he has it according to official stance. Official stance I believe Cap has peak healing, but exhibits above peak healing. You can attribute this to several factors such as scientific knowledge and hyperbolic necessity in the story. Same thing with Eidetic memory. They may have said it once or multiple times, but I think it's not the official stance if it is Peak human as close to known science as possible... But if your point is that it enhanced his mental abilities, I agree, but it was only peak of the average human which doesn't include Eidetic memory.

- I don't follow mainstream Marvel. Most portrayals of him as he hasn't left his home country and such. As far as saying he is Batman plus... simply no. Martial arts mastery isn't the only thing that Bruce mastered in that time. So no Black Panther isn't comparable, just like the other guy that is the martial arts top master in Marvel isn't. Those people would be more comparable to the King Snake who is a great fighter along with all the other top fighters in terms of straight fighting ability in DC, which Batman isn't among the top 10, but what we're measuring is who's the one who ultimately wins... and that's Batman who the top pure fighter people are beaten by, because he's about winning, not being the best.

You are under the misapprehension that I don't think that the serum improved Cap's brain. I pointed this out in what I said in my first post in this thread. His mental capabilities have been improved, but there is a difference between having those abilities and using them and how you use them. Cap doesn't spend all day training, learning, inventing, improving. Batman does. Cap could get up to Batman a lot quicker than a normal person but that still would take a concerted effort which would take quite a bit of time.

- No Cap was not battling day in and out. He was called in for special ops or to help briefly in the trenches. Once the mission was completed he was taken off field while the next plan was being figured out and while they were moving between areas. It really isn't the same type of day after day after day thing that Batman does. I'm not saying it's not hard or grueling, but it's not the same and it's not as strenuous as we might think because we hear all the horror stories and think about travel now adays. Cap would have had a lot more time of waiting around in cramped planes or driving to some place punctuated by brief battles. And even though there were some heavier opponents they were mainly fodder and not Namor or Bosses ^.^

As to Xavier thing. I misread. Breaking out of psychological things is done by quite a few people by different techniques. It doesn't matter to anything I said either way, but your point is the mental thing which I already discussed.

Posted by Veshark

@durakken

- Huh? First off, whether or not Cap is peak human or enhanced is highly-debatable. There is an entire thread devoted to it. And if eidetic memory has been shown before, it's either canon or has been later retconned, which it has not. You cannot claim that Cap does not have eidetic memory solely on the basis that it doesn't fit a 'peak human'. We're talking about a man whose mind is so upgraded that he can actually see in bullet-time. Is eidetic memory really that much of a stretch?

- What exactly are 'most portrayals of BP'? He has left the country, it is canon. And you claim you don't follow mainstream Marvel, then claim that BP is nothing more than a martial artist? He's a genius like Batman, the ninth smartest man in the MU, and now has all the knowledge and experience of past Black Panthers. Check. He uses technology and gadgets from the most advanced nation in the MU. Check. Barring the whole king aspect, he shares a lot of similarities to Batman. I'm going to drop this part now, because you're clearly misinformed on the character, and whether or not BP shares anything with Batman is not the debate. The issue I was trying to raise is that BP is a reputable martial artist, meaning that his comment on Cap means something.

As for your 'peak human' argument, you seem to be basing it on real-world science, which isn't applicable to superhero characters. Both Batman and Captain America go far beyond what ordinary peak humans are capable of, no real-world man can dodge bullets at PB range and master a range of martial arts disciplines. And what makes you assume that Cap doesn't spend his time training (because he clearly does)? He might not spend it exercising detective skills or fixing tech like Batman, but he does hone his own physical skills, and trains other Avengers as well.

- Your claim is that Cap does not share Batman's mental stamina because he has not sustained 'long battles with varying levels of enemies', which is, to be blunt, ridiculous. In WWII alone, the Invaders and Cap would be dropped into various theaters where there were superhuman problems. They would fight there until the mission was complete, and then they would move on to the next theater. We're talking about dealing with different problems each time, with different scenarios, in different locations. Your assumption that these were 'brief battles' has nothing backing it up. And this is war and combat, with soldiers, tanks, and superhumans. Most of Bats' days are spent tackling 'fodder criminals', if you want to go there. And even if you don't take his four years in WWII into account, he still has his entire superhero career. You're telling me that the Kree-Skrull War and Civil War didn't need mental stamina on Cap's part?

It does matter because this isn't a random telepath we're discussing, this is the Red Skull - one of most evil men in the MU - using the brain of Charles Xavier - one of the strongest telepaths in the MU - to subdue Cap's mind and failing to do so. That is a feat you can't deny.

Edited by DocLuthorVonDoom

@azura_thena

You're the only one I see "verbally abusing" anyone here. The worst part is that you do it, and then constantly cite the rules and get on your high horse for everyone else who, even vaguely, comes close. You're not a mod, stop acting like one. It's people like you that turn these message boards into dry, humorless exercises in redundancy.

Edited by MuyJingo

@azura_thena

You're the only one I see "verbally abusing" anyone here. The worst part is that you do it, and then constantly cite the rules and get on your high horse for everyone else who, even vaguely, comes close. You're not a mod, stop acting like one. It's people like you that turn these message boards into dry, humorless exercises in redundancy.

Just drop it man. It's not worth arguing with some people, especially when they're only looking for reactions.

Posted by Azura_Thena

@azura_thena

You're the only one I see "verbally abusing" anyone here. The worst part is that you do it, and then constantly cite the rules and get on your high horse for everyone else who, even vaguely, comes close. You're not a mod, stop acting like one. It's people like you that turn these message boards into dry, humorless exercises in redundancy.

I am sorry you interpreted anything I said as an insult. Nothing I said was intended as such. I certainly don't think making the statement that someone's argument is flawed is an insult.

You are right, I am not a mod. But it is the responsibility of all users to report actions they believe to be against the rules and let the mods sort it out. That is what I have done.

Humor can be had without hurting others. If you don't believe that is true, then you might need to reflect on that some.

Posted by fil123

batman can beat/has beat deathstroke - which is dc's version of cap.

also deathstroke beat cap on the comic battle of the week.

Edited by k4tzm4n

@fil123 said:

batman can beat/has beat deathstroke - which is dc's version of cap.

also deathstroke beat cap on the comic battle of the week.

And Deathstroke can beat/has beat Batman. So...? ;)

Edited by MuyJingo

I'm not going to engage in the debate again abotu Captain being peak or enhanced, however I finally found what I was looking for, the Captain America entry from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe from 2011. This is only 2 years old, and takes into account all of Brubakers run.

This is the most recent official source that I am aware of. It very clearly defines him as peak human, with his speed and strength being at the very upper limits a human is capable of, certainly not in the enhanced category.

Edited by Alexander505

So? Cap is a peak human, like Bats...The hypothesis about the enhanced strenght of Cap on Batman, is no supported...Both character have the same physical level...strength incluse...

For me, Batman should win one or two fights more than Cap, in a fight, because he is better like martial artist, and has the advantage of gadgets..

Edited by Alexander505

batman can beat/has beat deathstroke - which is dc's version of cap.

Cap is not like Deathstroke...Slade has enhanced the physical and mental faculties.

Posted by MuyJingo

So? Cap is a peak human, like Bats...The hypothesis about the enhanced strenght of Cap on Batman, is no supported...Both character have the same physical level...strength incluse...

For me, Batman should win one or two fights more than Cap, in a fight, because he is better like martial artist, and has the advantage of gadgets..

But there's all sorts of PIS feats showing him doing things a human isn't capable of, or so the argument goes. It just doesn't seem to apply bilaterally.

Posted by k4tzm4n

Just FYI, that handbook entry pretty much defies Cap's continuity over the decades. If my memory serves me right, he's sprinted over 30mph at least 3 times and under different writers, he's lifted more than 800lbs before, and, based on my memory, other handbooks granted him a 7/7 in fighting skill, not a 6/7. Again, that final part could be incorrect.

Posted by MuyJingo

@k4tzm4n said:

Just FYI, that handbook entry pretty much defies Cap's continuity over the decades. If my memory serves me right, he's sprinted over 30mph at least 3 times and under different writers, he's lifted more than 800lbs before, and, based on my memory, other handbooks granted him a 7/7 in fighting skill, not a 6/7. Again, that final part could be incorrect.

Continuity, or PIS feats?

The whole reason I started debating his classification was after I realized the contradicting information, I wanted clarification. When I asked for evidence, there were less than 10, nay less than 5 examples of him stated as running above 30mph on paper. In decades.

I mean honestly, with the amount of cap feats being used as proof that he is enhanced or super human, there are a similar amount of feats for other peak human characters that could be used to argue they are enhanced or super-human.

Unless Cap is shown running faster than 30mph consistently, lifting over 800lbs or even 1000lbs consistently, then I don't think it's accurate to define the character as being beyond those limits.

Posted by Azura_Thena

Super strength specifically stated. Here he displays peak human physicals WITHOUT the serum. Now if only this was as good as a non-canon handbook entry...

Edited by MuyJingo

@azura_thena:

What makes you think the handbook entry is non canon? Are you familiar with the OHotMU?

I've never disputed he has displayed such feats, just that he does so consistently enough that they can be considered the baseline for his abilities.

Besides, the handbook was used to make a point in the latest article in this series. Either they are valid or they are not, it shouldn't be selectively only when it suits an argument.

Edited by Alexander505

To be considered superhuman in physical strength, a character must lift a ton (1 at least) ... Batman and Captain America never did anything like this. Both have lifted on bench press half a ton, and other amazing feats, but they are still peak human.

I mean honestly, with the amount of cap feats being used as proof that he is enhanced or super human, there are a similar amount of feats for other peak human characters that could be used to argue they are enhanced or super-human.

Indeed, using this logic, even Batman could be considered an enhanced / superhuman.

Edited by MuyJingo

@azura_thena

I also had to add this quote in, as far as the picture of him benching 1100lbs goes:

A person can almost always bench press more weight than they can lift over his/her head. For instance, if a person can bench 300 lbs, they can lift about two-thirds of that weight above their head, which would be 200 lbs in this case. So, if that holds true for Captain America, his maximum bench press would be somewhere around 1,200 lbs, which would fit in with him working out with 1,100 lbs.

You're picture actually supports the canon handbook entry. Thanks.

Posted by PowerHerc

Captain America wins, thus proving Batman does not always win.

Edited by TheBournePoster

There is a comic where Batman supports 1500 lbs with one arm, while supporting 3000 lbs on his back.

Edited by Alexander505

A peak human can't support with one arm 1500 lbs. Batman can lift on bench press a weight similar, but can't lift it over his head.

Edited by TheBournePoster
Edited by Alexander505

With one arm, over the head? I never saw that. Batman never did something like that, neither Cap, Black Panther...or Bane (he can lift over his head 900lbs), the only one that can be really considered metahuman in strength (even without Venom).

Posted by Saren

Super strength specifically stated. Here he displays peak human physicals WITHOUT the serum. Now if only this was as good as a non-canon handbook entry...

.......that is not without the serum. That is WITH the serum. The super-strength he specifically mentions is a reference to the arc where he was amped and actually did have full-blown super-strength for a while before losing it and reverting back to an enhanced state. There's another instance in an issue of Avengers where Cap had the serum and was lifting weights with D-Man, and in that he registered the same number, 1100 lbs.

And I don't know where you got the idea that OHotMU is non-canon. It's one of the most canon things you can find about the Marvel Universe anywhere.

Moderator
Edited by Alexander505

Why these articles say everytime "Batman always wins"? I see that he loses the most the times, also with his gadgets. The most of people believe that he loses against

- Captain America

- Black Panther

- Wolverine

- Deathstroke

The most people believe that he wins only against

- Devil

That's all...Batman won just once.

Edited by k4tzm4n

Why these articles say everytime "Batman always wins"? I see that he loses the most the times. The most of people believe that he loses against

- Captain America

- Black Panther

- Wolverine

The most people believe that he wins only against

Devil

That's all.

That isn't true. Batman has 4 wins, 3 defeats and 1 draw in the segment.

Posted by Alexander505

Batman loses against the better characters, he win just against the characters more underestimated or less popular like Devil or Gambit or....Ninja Turtles, really?

Edited by k4tzm4n

@alexander505 said:

Batman loses against the better characters, he win just against the characters more underestimated or less popular like Devil or Gambit or....Ninja Turtles, really?

What is the point you're trying to make? Popularity holds no weight in these articles. I determine the winner by evaluating and weighing as many factors as possible (physicals, mentality, powers, fighting ability). Their popularity is irrelevant, as is whether or not many tend to underestimate them.

Edited by Alexander505

My point is what I said, and the most of people believe that he lose also against Cap.

Edited by k4tzm4n

@alexander505 said:

My point is what I said, and the most of people believe that he lose also against Cap.

They can believe what they wish. Obviously a reasonable argument can be made for either side, but I was responding to this (that's why it was underlined and bolded in my initial reply):

Why these articles say everytime "Batman always wins"? I see that he loses the most the times,

And as I pointed out, that's false.

Edited by Alexander505

@the_stegman said:

I love how upset people are getting at the "Batman always wins" thing, when in most cases, it's not actually taken seriously, and is meant as a joke, the only ones who take it seriously, are those who dislike them, same goes for the "Chuck Norris Facts" jokes that get passed around. We all know Batman is not a god, even with prep, there's only so much he can do, so chill out people, have a civilized debate without attacking someone personally or claiming they have a "Bat Boner" which is just sooo clever by the way.

This guy has absolutely right.

Batman is taken as an idiot in the fighting ... I'm sorry to say.

Edited by Alexander505

For the record, in just two pages, the majority of users of this forum think that Cap would win.

Cap: 25 points

Batman: 17 points

Batman still loses..

Batman not always win, and when he wins (few times), he is treated as a silly, like Chuck Norris style.

Edited by k4tzm4n
@alexander505 said:

@the_stegman said:

I love how upset people are getting at the "Batman always wins" thing, when in most cases, it's not actually taken seriously, and is meant as a joke, the only ones who take it seriously, are those who dislike them, same goes for the "Chuck Norris Facts" jokes that get passed around. We all know Batman is not a god, even with prep, there's only so much he can do, so chill out people, have a civilized debate without attacking someone personally or claiming they have a "Bat Boner" which is just sooo clever by the way.

This guy has absolutely right.

Batman is taken as an idiot in the fighting ... I'm sorry to say.

Except you've completely missed the point of what stegman was saying. He's not saying Batman's a joke -- he's saying the impression some people have and the line about him "always winning" is a joke. Nowhere does he say Batman's abilities as a combatant are a joke -- just that he shouldn't be over hyped and isn't unbeatable.

Batman is not taken as an "idiot in the fighting" and just because more people think Captain America wins hardly renders him a "joke."

But hey, you're entitled to think whatever you want.

Edited by Alexander505

The point is that the most people here believe that Cap should win, so he win. The stalemate is just your opinion.

As I said, Batman wins just against Devil and Gambit.

Continue on to say that "Batman always wins" is just a way to tease him. Stop doing that.

Edited by k4tzm4n

@alexander505 said:

The point is that the most people here believe that Cap should win, so he win. The stalemate is just your opinion.

I'll take quality of posts over quantity, but if you want to think he wins because more people said so, then be my guess.

Also, I never said otherwise about the verdicts of these segments being "just my opinion." I thought that was obvious enough and didn't need to be stated.

At any rate, I replied to you because:

A) You were wrong about Batman's official win/loss ratio in the thread

and then

B) I strongly believe you misinterpreted Stegman's good post.

Edited by k4tzm4n

@alexander505 said:

The point is that the most people here believe that Cap should win, so he win. The stalemate is just your opinion.

As I said, Batman wins just against Devil and Gambit.

Continue on to say that "Batman always wins" is just a way to tease him. Stop doing that.

Since you made an edit I missed before:

I don't say "Batman Always Wins." The entire point of the segment is to see how Batman fares in a random encounter against characters from different universes. The title is a joke. Nothing more, nothing less. It's laughable when people try to think there's some bias behind it. It's literally a name I came up with on the fly -- it's just seeing if he'll win against the characters used in the segment.

Posted by Alexander505

But how can say that "Batman always win", when the most of people say the contrary?

Edited by k4tzm4n

But how can say that "Batman always win", when the most of people say the contrary?

Look above.

Posted by Alexander505

Ok, I understand your point, but remains the fact that if it was a survey, Cap would win.

Posted by TheBournePoster

@alexander505: Yes, he did. Here is the scan.

gothamaftermidnight2-batvsarcophagus3.jpg

Man-Bat refers to the items as sarcophagus in the previous scan. Anyways, King Tut's coffin weighed 3,000 lbs. These would appear to be about the same length, so we can assume the same. Batman is holding the other coffin with a batrope kind of pulley. If that pulley were to halve the effective work, Batman would have 3,000 lbs on his shoulders and be holding up 1,500 with the other.

Edited by Alexander505

@thebourneposter said:

@alexander505: Yes, he did. Here is the scan.

gothamaftermidnight2-batvsarcophagus3.jpg

Man-Bat refers to the items as sarcophagus in the previous scan. Anyways, King Tut's coffin weighed 3,000 lbs. These would appear to be about the same length, so we can assume the same. Batman is holding the other coffin with a batrope kind of pulley. If that pulley were to halve the effective work, Batman would have 3,000 lbs on his shoulders and be holding up 1,500 with the other.

Well yes, but we can't be sure about the weight of this sarcophagus...So, for you in this scan Batman has on his shoulders 1 tons (3000 lbs = 1360kg)? That's probable, but how we can prove it? To weigh so much, the sarcophagus must be made by gold.

Posted by TheBournePoster

@alexander505: It can't be proven, but I believe that most sarcophagus are made of gold.

Edited by obaydh

@sammo21 said:

Captain America.

Cap is smarter, Cap is faster, Cap is stronger, Cap has no weaknesses for Batman to exploit, Cap has the shield, Cap is a master of hand to hand fighting, Cap has more experience, Cap has more strategic experience...bat-fans and fanboys might not like it, but Cap comes out on top. OH yeah, and he's knocked out Hitler like 50 times.

Cap is smarter???? Batman is considered to be the "World's Greatest Detective," solving the biggest secrets with small or large amounts of data. He's also fluent in many different languages such as English, Spanish, French, Russian, German, Japanese, Chinese, and others. Bruce has vast knowledge in criminology,psychology,medicine, and anatomy.Batman is a excellent strategist,and is always steps ahead of his opponents.This incredible ability is due to the fact he studies his opponents, not only physically but mentally as well.

Cap is the master of hand to hand fighting???

Batman has been said to be trained in every martial art known to man, and out of every single one of those forms of fighting he knows 127 that are deadly. These 127 are the main forms of fighting that make up his normal fighting style. He is known to change his styles in order to become unpredictable to his opponents.His primary style of combat though is a mixture of Judo, Ninjitsu, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, Jujitsu, Boxing, Karate and Dragon Style Kung Fu.

Because of his training Batman has also mastered nearly all weapons known to man, even most firearms. Batman's combat skill surpasses most metahumans and normal men, and he even knows every pressure point and nerve strike in the human body, as well as dim mak ("death touch") techniques. These can cause dangerous pain to his enemies which can lead to dizziness, numbness, unconsciousness, temporary paralysis, disorientation, and even death.

Cap is a master of a small number of martial arts and has developed his own fighting-style which melds jujitsu, boxing, judo, karate, pressure points, all-terrain acrobatics and the use of his shield.

Cap is stronger and faster?? well debatable, but: Due to his intense training and diet Batman has accomplished feats that normal human beings might call superhuman. Batman is in peak physical and mental condition. Batman has displayed surprising strength, and is able to bench press weight of at least 1000 pounds, and has personally stated that his maximum leg press weight is 2500 lbs (over 1.133 Kg). However, as shown in Batman Odyssey # 2, Batman was able to overcome his personal record leg press, moving, with the strength of the legs, a stuck railroad car. In Gotham After Midnight # 2, Batman was able to hold up two golden sarcophagi with the approximate weight of at least 1 ton, for at least one minute. In addition, Batman is an accomplished gymnast and acrobat, though not quite at the level of Nightwing. Batman's training and peak condition mean he's very fast, both in combat and on his feet. This speed combined with his strength, make him phenomenally powerful; even the enhanced assassin Deathstroke has commented upon the power and skill of the Batman.

Cap is as strong, fast, durable and agile as any human could one day be - and his strength is referred to as being preternatural. His reflexes have also been increased to peak human potential and are nearly instantaneous (he is also capable of 'seeing faster' - enabling him to dodge bullets). He has run a mile in roughly a minute and can bench-press up to 1100 pounds.

Cap has no weaknesses to exploit??? Cap is still a human by the way, not an immortal. As said before, batman knows every pressure point and nerve strike of the human body plus death touch techniques.

Posted by Sammo21

@obaydh: I was bored cause I am working a 12 hour shift and there is no work to do right this second. Thanks for providing me a good laugh. I needed it. :)

Edited by Bezza

Cap is stronger than Batman. He had a special serum to enhance his strength. You only have to watch the cap America film to see this. He swatted normally soldiers like flies and bent steel bars. He jumped over fences and outran cars. In fact having only watched the film yesterday, in truth his strength was portrayed as being closer to Spiderman's level than a peak human like Batman or Daredevil. Batman has none of these feats. He doesn't have this strength and all this lifting one ton business is pure PIS. Cap is a very under-rated character and certainly a fight with Batman would be one of the closest.

Edited by Jayc1324

@bezza: batman bent steel in the comics and has done similar stuff. I do admit cap is stronger though. Why should batmans feats be called PIS but not caps? Batman benched over 1000 pounds as part of his daily routine, it had nothing to do with plot. Cap is stronger but still, I don't think it's much of a factor