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DC Launches Two New Batman Related Titles

Two new series that take a look at elements from Gotham.

Entertainment Weekly announced today that DC comics is launching two new titles in October which will expand the Batverse. Neither of these books will actually be about Batman though. The first book is ARKHAM MANOR, where Wayne Manor will become a dungeon for the crazies of Gotham where inmates wind up dead. The series will be written by Gerry Duggan (NOVA) and drawn by Shawn Crystal (DEADPOOL). Here's the cover from EW.

Credit: EW/DC Comics
Credit: EW/DC Comics

The second Bat-related titles is called GOTHAM ACADEMY, which will appeal more to teens and it will be set in Gotham's most prestigious prep school where Bruce Wayne is a benefactor. The series is written by Becky Cloonan (DEMO) and Brendan Fletcher and drawn by Karl Kerschl (TEEN TITANS: YEAR ONE).

Credit: EW/DC Comics
Credit: EW/DC Comics

GOTHAM ACADEMY hits stores on October 1st, and ARKHAM MANOR comes out on October 22nd.

Source: Entertainment Weekly

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entropy_aegis

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I see no problem really,there aren't anymore extra Bat books out there,remember Batwing and Birds of Prey got cancelled,and now they've been replaced,what's the bitching about?

@m3th said:

And wHo says DC doesn't milk tHe batsman HuH look at tHe preetty comics. WHo's tHe played out cHaracter? Yes you are. Yes you are.

-ABstract4$$#073-

Except these are not Batman books,they happen to be set in Gotham. By the same token even comics starring Ragman,Black Canary etc could be referred to as Batman books.

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Billy Batson

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Edited By Billy Batson

Based Cloonan.

BB

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Koays

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@trebean: Static failed for a lot of reasons,departing from the characters roots and lacking a noteworthy push being the highest among them.

Stormwatch, Demon Knights and JLI all sold poorly but had stronger stories.

At what point does it become DCs fault that they can't attract people to their good books and make no attempt to improve their bad ones. Who is responsible but them for failure to adapt appropriately? Who's to blame but the person providing the content when they can't bring in new comic book readers and the older ones are buying less of their books?

Teen Titans, Catwoman and Birds of Prey all had very poor stories that at best were average but got over 30 issues across 4 years....Until recently none of these books (Save Birds) had creative team changes or were given jumping on points. They basically had a bad book that was selling moderately and rather then improve it they just let it sink slowly until it was time to be canceled.

I repeat DC has extremely poor product awareness, and I doubt if outside of Batman and Justice League the creators are even fans of the company's current books.

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M3th

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Edited By M3th

@entropy_aegis: THe title of tHe tHread is "DC Launches Two New Batman Related Titles, " but yeaH good argument.

-ABstract4$$#073-

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lifeofvibe

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gotham academy my interest has been spiked

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Nerd Of A Hero

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"Meh"

I think Arkham Manor will be a great read, don't know if the other one will be good but I'll try it once the reviews comes in.

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Winter_Kills

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Edited By Winter_Kills

Damn, Batman gets all of these titles, & Marvel can't give Captain America a single decent book since Brubaker left. (And for the record, not hating on Batman or the titles- just wish Marvel would treat some of their iconic characters the way DC does some of theirs. Accent on the "some".)

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kleo_94

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@winter_kills: That's true, actually. I though the same thing when I realised how DC's Batman gets many great titles, and Captain America is like... Geez, he's got very few good books. I like Batman, but luckily enough (for my sake and my money), I like Dick more. Still, it's hard to keep track of Batman, especially if one's just starting with DC or comics at all, I mean, SO many Batman titles, many of which are kinda important.

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@kleo_94 said:

@winter_kills: That's true, actually. I though the same thing when I realised how DC's Batman gets many great titles, and Captain America is like... Geez, he's got very few good books. I like Batman, but luckily enough (for my sake and my money), I like Dick more. Still, it's hard to keep track of Batman, especially if one's just starting with DC or comics at all, I mean, SO many Batman titles, many of which are kinda important.

Yeah, I know what you mean- you're like Marvel, come on! They could have a better writer on the main Cap comic, put out a good Winter Soldier book, even put out a 40s era series or mini-series about him & Bucky- los of potential here being wasted. I gotta give it to DC- they explore Batman and his universe, all the characters surrounding him to its full potential- I'm a Marvel boy mainly & I respect that & wished they did the same. Like you, I like Dick more- I've always loved Nightwing, one of my fave DC characters, even if I haven't agreed with some of the things they've done. What do you think of everything going on with the whole Grayson series?

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Edited By kleo_94

@winter_kills: Yeah, I'm more Mavel girl as well, and I wouldn't even bother reading DC stuff if not for Nightwing. But what they've done now with this whole Grayson series? I call this bull. They want to do the same thing that has made the Winter Soldier popular in Marvel. And I can see already it won't work. Yeah, I know there are still fans who will follow Dick, no matter what DC will do to his character (and I will follow, too, because I won't abandon a character just because DC wants their own Bucky-secret-operative in their DCverse). I will miss Nightwing. A lot.

NO, DC. You can't have your own Bucky-boy, live with it. They've had an amazing character, and yet they like to ruin things, because of what, of Marvel having their Winter Soldier? Geez, DC. Bucky is Bucky, and Dick is Dick. No need to spoil it.

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@kleo_94:

You totally NAILED exactly how I feel about the whole Grayson thing. There is no way that Dick could be an espionage character like Bucky. Nightwing was awesome because of who he is- he's a hero in his own right, a more swashbuckling character who can stand on his own from Batman, a leader & inspiration to the hero community. It's like someone at DC said, "Wow, look how awesome Bucky is as the Winter Soldier! Let's do that & make Dick Grayson a super-spy! Let's fake his death & make him a ghost operative!" Just like you said, Bucky is Bucky, Dick is Dick. If Dick had some espionage/super-spy background it would make sense- but he doesn't. When I saw the cover for the 1st issue with the gun in his hands, I was like, "What's Dick going to do? Continually shoot the guns out of his opponent's hands?" Bucky has the killer instinct, he does the dirty jobs- that's his character, what he's always done since WW2. He's a spy, a soldier, an assassin when need be. That's not Dick. I feel like if DC wanted a super-spy, they could at least have used a character with an espionage background, like Arsenal/Red Arrow- at least he was a Checkmate agent for awhile pre-New 52.

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Edited By kleo_94

@winter_kills: You're right. You're absolutely right. Why forcing Dick to become Bucky's DC equivalent when Richard has no background like James has. Batman's teaching: No killing. Bruce didn't like guns, either. While Steve understood that Bucky was there to do the dirty job, and guns were as normal as sticks to Nightwing. Killing for Bucky is nothing new, while for Dick... Well, he might have some problems with being ghost operative. I don't know why DC is doing this, to be honest. While I can understand that Marvel's Bucky was like DC's Robin when it comes to sidekicks [and yet it's so different, considering: Bucky+guns+knives+killing and Robin+all the noble stuff; also Cap+Bucky isn't necessarily Batman+Robin, the two partnerships having a whole different dynamics in their relationship], I don't see anything that makes Buck and Dick similar characters. They're not, they're simply not. So what's the point in making Winter Soldier from Nightwing? No idea at all. I'd think, after Forever Evil, that Dick will stay with Bruce for a while at least (yeah, I still have hopes to see more of Bruce/Dick father&son stuff, and Steve/Bucky brotherhood, which seems now unlikely in the new comics. Marvel, DC, is it so hard for you to make your characters to actually show some emotions, sometimes?). But no, DC is like "That's cool, so if Bucky is popular in Marvel, we will make Dick popular here too..." Wrong, DC! Dick is already freakin' popular, and you just ruin it D:

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@kleo_94:

I agree totally. Dick's ALWAYS been a popular character, DC keeps forgetting that. I feel like he's been a target for years- a target of people like Didio that don't get him, who either want to kill him off or "Change him to make him better" which is stupid, he's always been one of the best. I feel like the deconstruction of Dick has been going on since Infinite Crisis, when there was a lot of rumor he was going to be killed off, & Didio intended it, but writers like Johns & Waid talked him out of it. They did the whole blowing up Bludhaven thing(destroying his own city that he protected was always a sucky idea, IMO), and that "he was supposed to have died, but didn't, making his fate uncertain" thing with the Monitors I never understood, & then when he gets a decent successful series with Higgins as writer, they pull the stunt in Forever Evil to take him even farther away from what he's supposed to be. They even made him a punching bag for his own adoptive dad in one of the most gratuitous, over-the-top, thoughtless fights I've ever seen in the last issue of Nightwing.(but, in retrospect, I'm glad Forever Evil wasn't the fulfillment of Didio's apparent life-long dream to kill Dick Grayson, which honestly I think he's working up to in increments by systematically damaging the character.) The one good thing about Grayson is they have an ex-CIA guy writing it(doesn't make the premise or execution any better); maybe Marvel could do the same thing for Bucky & add to the authenticism of his super-spy/espionage exploits. And I also agree I'd like to see more connections between the characters: I've talked before about Steve & Bucky's brotherhood, I understand Bucky's a ghost op, but they could have them interact on espionage missions and of course during events like Original Sin, they're FAR from strangers. The same thing is now going to happen with Bruce & Dick now that Dick is a "ghost op"- he won't be able to interact with Bruce, the Bat-family or other characters as much. I mean c'mon Marvel & DC- these interactions make the characters. Steve+ Bucky & Bruce+Dick- they're family- brothers for the former, and practically father & son for the latter.

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@winter_kills: Yeah, pretty much. And, DC, if you plan to kill Dick... then get out of my life before you'll ruin it.

They even made him a punching bag for his own adoptive dad

The thing that I couldn't believe when I was reading this issue. I mean... I know Bruce did punch Dick a few times (okay, okay, a little more than a few times), but it has never been like the last issue of Nightwing, in which he beats him up like the worst criminal. Lol Bruce, that's your son. Your first son. Your adopted son. Your favourite son. I have no idea how Bruce could have done that to Dick. There was supposed to be a point in all this, but all I could see was a father beating up his own son. And wasn't it shortly after the events of Forever Evil, when Dick died for a moment? Dick almost died, so I'll just beat the hell out of him, just because. Yeah, Bruce, parenting A+. Like Odin. They could actually meet and talk about their adoptive sons, how they screw up as fathers. I believe Steve could teach Bruce a thing or two, about how to treat his sidekick. [In one of the Avengers Annual, there was a story in which some of the "dead" -Bucky was still supposed to be dead- came to fight the Avengers (I don't even remember what was it all about, but whatever), and Bucky fought against Steve. At one point Steve said "You used to be like a son to me, Bucky. I loved you. I have always loved you!" and after punching him to save the world "Please forgive me...Son.", and he thought "This may very well have been the most costly battle I've ever fought, but I have no time for self-recriminations now!" And that's something I cherish about Bucky/Steve relationship, whether it's brother/brother or son/father. That's the one difference between Steve and Bruce; Bruce doesn't mind punching Dick, kid or not, not to mention beating the hell out of him, while Steve would have never done something like that to Bucky. Sure, they fought when Buck was brainwashed, but that was different, and wasn't all about beating him up, in fact he has never punched him [yeah, not mentioning the shield in Bucky's face, because he was with the mission implemented in his mind :D]. In Golden age comics, I think he slapped him three times, one because he was under some magical influence, and twice when he wanted to protect Bucky from...something. And Bruce & Dick? THAT'S quite another story.

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@kleo_94:

@kleo_94 said:

@winter_kills: Yeah, pretty much. And, DC, if you plan to kill Dick... then get out of my life before you'll ruin it.

They even made him a punching bag for his own adoptive dad

The thing that I couldn't believe when I was reading this issue. I mean... I know Bruce did punch Dick a few times (okay, okay, a little more than a few times), but it has never been like the last issue of Nightwing, in which he beats him up like the worst criminal. Lol Bruce, that's your son. Your first son. Your adopted son. Your favourite son. I have no idea how Bruce could have done that to Dick. There was supposed to be a point in all this, but all I could see was a father beating up his own son. And wasn't it shortly after the events of Forever Evil, when Dick died for a moment? Dick almost died, so I'll just beat the hell out of him, just because. Yeah, Bruce, parenting A+. Like Odin. They could actually meet and talk about their adoptive sons, how they screw up as fathers. I believe Steve could teach Bruce a thing or two, about how to treat his sidekick. [In one of the Avengers Annual, there was a story in which some of the "dead" -Bucky was still supposed to be dead- came to fight the Avengers (I don't even remember what was it all about, but whatever), and Bucky fought against Steve. At one point Steve said "You used to be like a son to me, Bucky. I loved you. I have always loved you!" and after punching him to save the world "Please forgive me...Son.", and he thought "This may very well have been the most costly battle I've ever fought, but I have no time for self-recriminations now!" And that's something I cherish about Bucky/Steve relationship, whether it's brother/brother or son/father. That's the one difference between Steve and Bruce; Bruce doesn't mind punching Dick, kid or not, not to mention beating the hell out of him, while Steve would have never done something like that to Bucky. Sure, they fought when Buck was brainwashed, but that was different, and wasn't all about beating him up, in fact he has never punched him [yeah, not mentioning the shield in Bucky's face, because he was with the mission implemented in his mind :D]. In Golden age comics, I think he slapped him three times, one because he was under some magical influence, and twice when he wanted to protect Bucky from...something. And Bruce & Dick? THAT'S quite another story.

You got that 110% right! That last issue of Nightwing was....wow. Just too over the top, I mean, it was just freakin' crazy. You're right- Steve wouldn't do like that, even when he as the Wiinter Soldier & under Lukin's and Bucky was trying his damndest to kill him, Steve still looked for a different solution. Beating the hell out of him was the farthest thing from Steve's mind- he knew there was a better way, somehow, and he found it. But Bruce & Dick? That was just CRAZY. I mean, there's been some screwed up things about their father/son relationship in the past- Bruce has never been the best "dad", at least in the modern era- but damn, that took it to a whole new level. You're right- I think Bruce & Odin went t the same school of parenting. I remember in Fear Itself when he beat the hell out of Thor & chained him- I was like, Odin, you suck as a father. Then he wanted to destroy the Earth, his son died fighting the Serpent(even though he got better)- hell, I'd exile myself too if I showed my ass the way he did. Zeus was pretty bad too- Hera did some awful things to Herc, & when Herc retaliates? His dad takes away his powers & godhood. And that's one out of a whole host of other things that both odin & Zeus did to their sons. It's a good thing Thor, Herc & Dick are the individuals they are, or they'd definitely need therapy after that kinda crap went down.

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kleo_94

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@winter_kills: I think Bruce & Odin went t the same school of parenting.

Or, rather, they didn't at all, maybe that's why they're such bricks of wall when it comes to showing any emotions towards their sons.

Despite all that, Bruce being... Bruce... I still appreciate their relationship, Dick & Bruce's. That's the point, coming back to your first comment, that DC is having good runs, and has a lot of issues and stories told about their characters. So, considering how often Dick and Bruce meet, interact, hell, talk or fight, whatever kind of contact it is, it exists in DC's comics. When it comes to Bucky/Steve, there wasn't the opportunity, since he was very dead. And when he came back, well, there weren't really many times when they could share a moment. So DC continues to have new titles, many of which are at least decent, and if these are bad? There are already many great stories and comics. DC wants so bad to screw up Nightwing? That's sweet, I'll just ignore the new runs and come back to old good issues, when Dick is actually Dick, not a Bucky wannabe. With Marvel's Bucky, for instance, that could be the hell of a problem, simply because the character has been killed off a long time ago, and revived relatively recently (okay, maybe not that recently), and Marvel hasn't many good titles on him. That being said, I propose Marvel to use the current popularity of the Winter Soldier in their comics, and I propose DC to cut the crap with this whole Grayson thing.

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@kleo_94 said:

@winter_kills: I think Bruce & Odin went t the same school of parenting.

Or, rather, they didn't at all, maybe that's why they're such bricks of wall when it comes to showing any emotions towards their sons.

Despite all that, Bruce being... Bruce... I still appreciate their relationship, Dick & Bruce's. That's the point, coming back to your first comment, that DC is having good runs, and has a lot of issues and stories told about their characters. So, considering how often Dick and Bruce meet, interact, hell, talk or fight, whatever kind of contact it is, it exists in DC's comics. When it comes to Bucky/Steve, there wasn't the opportunity, since he was very dead. And when he came back, well, there weren't really many times when they could share a moment. So DC continues to have new titles, many of which are at least decent, and if these are bad? There are already many great stories and comics. DC wants so bad to screw up Nightwing? That's sweet, I'll just ignore the new runs and come back to old good issues, when Dick is actually Dick, not a Bucky wannabe. With Marvel's Bucky, for instance, that could be the hell of a problem, simply because the character has been killed off a long time ago, and revived relatively recently (okay, maybe not that recently), and Marvel hasn't many good titles on him. That being said, I propose Marvel to use the current popularity of the Winter Soldier in their comics, and I propose DC to cut the crap with this whole Grayson thing.

Hear hear! Both companies are squandering opportunities with two great characters- in Marvel's case, Bucky's popularity which could warrant a great new series- and in DC's, tearing down Dick Grayson to turn him into a character he never was & shouldn't be. Like you said, they need to cut the crap.

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deactivated-5c6600594117e

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DC needs to start a Batman imprint.

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Divine_Disorder

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I don't get the first one. Batman opens up his home to welcome the criminally insane of Gotham? And the series is not going to be about him? Just his home and the crazies now living there who later wind up dead? But if people start dying in his own house, you can bet Batman's gonna latch onto that case 24/7 and he won't rest till it's solved. So how is this series NOT actually going to be about him?

Might check these titles out when more details are available.

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deactivated-5d3f071d30d9f

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Because another Batman tittles is what we need.

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entropy_aegis

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DC needs to start a Batman imprint.

Agreed,lets start a petition.

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@kleo_94 said:

@winter_kills: Yeah, I'm more Mavel girl as well, and I wouldn't even bother reading DC stuff if not for Nightwing. But what they've done now with this whole Grayson series? I call this bull. They want to do the same thing that has made the Winter Soldier popular in Marvel. And I can see already it won't work. Yeah, I know there are still fans who will follow Dick, no matter what DC will do to his character (and I will follow, too, because I won't abandon a character just because DC wants their own Bucky-secret-operative in their DCverse). I will miss Nightwing. A lot.

NO, DC. You can't have your own Bucky-boy, live with it. They've had an amazing character, and yet they like to ruin things, because of what, of Marvel having their Winter Soldier? Geez, DC. Bucky is Bucky, and Dick is Dick. No need to spoil it.

Except it WILL work,count on it and the reason for that is simple DC HAS to make it work. The only time the Nightwing persona actually worked was in New Titans,after that he was Batman/Daredevil lite. His recent solo series was painfully mediocre,even the previous one minus Tomasi's short run and Year One was no better. Dick cant go back to being Batman(much as I want him),nor can he be a Teen Titan again,this is the best thing that can happen to the character,otherwise he'll just go back to being Batman's sidekick who pretends he outgrew him. This is Dick being his own man again,that is what the Nightwing identity represented when Dick first donned it back in the 80's,as a Dick fan you should support it especially when it's handled by such a good creative team.Mind you I'm skeptical myself but if this doesn't work then Dick is better off dead.

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@entropy_aegis: I just don't see how this is anything Dick-like. I mean, it's just not him, what they want him to do in Grayson. And as much as I'd love to see Dick being killed off (emotions, you know, all the emotions), I don't want him dead. And I don't have to have the same opinion on the character as you do. I liked Dick as Nightwing, I liked the titles, I liked him more as a Nightwing/Robin than as a Batman. It's like with hearing and reading all around that Damian was such a great character, the best Robin, etc. While me? Eh, I hate Damian.

as a Dick fan you should support it

Excuse me? I "should" nothing. That's actually my own opinion on this whole Grayson run, and only because I'm Dick's fan doesn't mean I'm gonna support what I don't like. That's all.

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Another Batman title? DC need to start doing something else, it's far too many Bat-titles out there, titles which could be replaced for other much wanted solo titles like Cyborg and Martian Manhunter. Some people may complain about the hate and state a reasoning such as why the complainers/haters of Bat-titles didn't get other titles when they were out but the simple reason is that DC dedicate most of their best writers, such as Snyder and Manapul & Buccellato for example, on Bat-titles whilst other titles get mediocre writers in comparison.

I still can't forgive DC for having, at one point, Scott Lobdell writing both Superman and Action Comics.

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@kleo_94 said:

@winter_kills: Yeah, I'm more Mavel girl as well, and I wouldn't even bother reading DC stuff if not for Nightwing. But what they've done now with this whole Grayson series? I call this bull. They want to do the same thing that has made the Winter Soldier popular in Marvel. And I can see already it won't work. Yeah, I know there are still fans who will follow Dick, no matter what DC will do to his character (and I will follow, too, because I won't abandon a character just because DC wants their own Bucky-secret-operative in their DCverse). I will miss Nightwing. A lot.

NO, DC. You can't have your own Bucky-boy, live with it. They've had an amazing character, and yet they like to ruin things, because of what, of Marvel having their Winter Soldier? Geez, DC. Bucky is Bucky, and Dick is Dick. No need to spoil it.

Except it WILL work,count on it and the reason for that is simple DC HAS to make it work. The only time the Nightwing persona actually worked was in New Titans,after that he was Batman/Daredevil lite. His recent solo series was painfully mediocre,even the previous one minus Tomasi's short run and Year One was no better. Dick cant go back to being Batman(much as I want him),nor can he be a Teen Titan again,this is the best thing that can happen to the character,otherwise he'll just go back to being Batman's sidekick who pretends he outgrew him. This is Dick being his own man again,that is what the Nightwing identity represented when Dick first donned it back in the 80's,as a Dick fan you should support it especially when it's handled by such a good creative team.Mind you I'm skeptical myself but if this doesn't work then Dick is better off dead.

As kleo said, I don't have to do anything. I am a fan of Dick Grayson, from the time he was Robin to present. What they are making him in Grayson is not the same character. He may be "his own man", but he's not the same man we grew up with. We grew up with a swashbuckling crimefighter, not a super-spy. And there is no guarantees that it WILL work, there never is in comics, and if this is what DC HAS to do to make it work, then maybe they are better off killing Dick Grayson if they can't think up any more original ideas with him, which is a shame. And I hate to say that since he is & always has been my favorite DC character, but if this is the best DC can do with him, then maybe he does need a proper send-off. He'll always be alive in my mind in the stories of his original solo series & everything Titans related- that's the REAL Dick Grayson, the one I want to read about. Maybe the Dick Grayson I knew really did die in Forever Evil if this is the way it has to be.

@kleo_94 said:

@entropy_aegis: I just don't see how this is anything Dick-like. I mean, it's just not him, what they want him to do in Grayson. And as much as I'd love to see Dick being killed off (emotions, you know, all the emotions), I don't want him dead. And I don't have to have the same opinion on the character as you do. I liked Dick as Nightwing, I liked the titles, I liked him more as a Nightwing/Robin than as a Batman. It's like with hearing and reading all around that Damian was such a great character, the best Robin, etc. While me? Eh, I hate Damian.

as a Dick fan you should support it

Excuse me? I "should" nothing. That's actually my own opinion on this whole Grayson run, and only because I'm Dick's fan doesn't mean I'm gonna support what I don't like. That's all.

Stick to your guns kleo, I agree with you totally, fans shouldn't support a character change that they don't agree with, even if it is their favorite character. I'm a HUGE Cap/Winter Soldier fan, but I don't follow Remender's current run or Winter Soldier: The Bitter March, they're mediocre & screwed up continuity wise. Does that make me any less of a Cap fan? Any less of a Bucky fan? Hell no, and if anybody said so I'd give them the finger & fart in their general direction. One walk into my room & you'd see I'm one of the biggest Cap/Bucky fans around- I just don't support a creative team that mishandles characters. This sends the message that his kind of writing isn't what the fans want, and then the companies, if they're smart, can listen to the fans & change. I'm the same way with Thor- I'm a huge Thor fan, but dropped the book during Fraction's run, now we have an awesome run with Jason Aaron. If everyone continued to follow blindly, Fraction might still be running Thor into the ground right now, & we wouldn't have ever received the awesome of Thor: God of Thunder. I feel the same way about Grayson. Just because kleo & I don't agree with the changes made to Dick, and think the whole premise of Grayson is junk, doesn't mean we're any less fans of him. We support the Dick Grayson we knew & grew up with him & this isn't it- I will support anything that has that great character in it, but I won't blindly follow through a bad premise, a bad run and editorial misdirection. Like with Cap & Bucky, I still have plenty of great Dick Grayson material to go back & read, until things get better or change. If not, if things don't change, then at least I still have those great comics/runs to fall back on again. But I won't blindly follow what is in my opinion a damaging decision simply because I'm a fan. And if something goes wrong, it's not my fault- DC made the decision for this change, not me. If the book fails, it'll be because of the premise & that more people than just me & kleo either chose not to support it or jumped ship. DC will then be singing that old Cinderella song: "You don't know what you've got, 'til it's gone..."

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2nd well blow and the first has a slim chance. Batman could be a tool to improve the rest of the franchises they potentially could have but no.

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@winter_kills: Yes and the generation before you grew up with Grayson the boy wonder,I'm sure they were just as pissed when he became Nightwing. Now Dick has a chance to create his own mythology. If that is as a super spy so be it,better than being wannabe Batman or Daredevil.

@kleo_94 said:

@entropy_aegis: I just don't see how this is anything Dick-like. I mean, it's just not him, what they want him to do in Grayson. And as much as I'd love to see Dick being killed off (emotions, you know, all the emotions), I don't want him dead. And I don't have to have the same opinion on the character as you do. I liked Dick as Nightwing, I liked the titles, I liked him more as a Nightwing/Robin than as a Batman. It's like with hearing and reading all around that Damian was such a great character, the best Robin, etc. While me? Eh, I hate Damian.

as a Dick fan you should support it

Excuse me? I "should" nothing. That's actually my own opinion on this whole Grayson run, and only because I'm Dick's fan doesn't mean I'm gonna support what I don't like. That's all.

So it's very clear that you are a Nightwing fan and not a "Dick Grayson" fan,I'm not 100% sold on this new direction(hell not even 60% to be honest) but I will support it because there is a chance it may allow him to break away from Batman's shadow. If fans had the same mentality as you all the time,then Dick wouldn't even have become Nightwing in the first place. His time as Batman and partnership with Damian is considered one of the most memorable runs with the character ever,right up there with Wolfmans Titans. Nightwing the solo vigilante was a creative flop,that's a cold hard fact,one which you'll undoubtedly refuse to accept but true nonetheless.

In his first ongoing he was a poor mans Daredevil,in the second one a poor man's Batman,I for one want Dick to be more than that.

Oh and Damian IS a great character.

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I know they don't sell the best, but I wish DC did more horror comics in the vein of Swamp Thing instead of crap like Gotham Academy. I love Batman, but I have kind of gotten bored of what DC has been doing to him. The character has been around for 75 years, so I know it is hard to come up with great new stories for him. Maybe they should look back at the classic Bat stories from the 70s, 80s, and 90s for inspiration. Obviously they shouldn't just redo these stories, but they need to do something to give the character back what made him great.

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@winter_kills: Yes and the generation before you grew up with Grayson the boy wonder,I'm sure they were just as pissed when he became Nightwing. Now Dick has a chance to create his own mythology. If that is as a super spy so be it,better than being wannabe Batman or Daredevil.

@kleo_94 said:

@entropy_aegis: I just don't see how this is anything Dick-like. I mean, it's just not him, what they want him to do in Grayson. And as much as I'd love to see Dick being killed off (emotions, you know, all the emotions), I don't want him dead. And I don't have to have the same opinion on the character as you do. I liked Dick as Nightwing, I liked the titles, I liked him more as a Nightwing/Robin than as a Batman. It's like with hearing and reading all around that Damian was such a great character, the best Robin, etc. While me? Eh, I hate Damian.

as a Dick fan you should support it

Excuse me? I "should" nothing. That's actually my own opinion on this whole Grayson run, and only because I'm Dick's fan doesn't mean I'm gonna support what I don't like. That's all.

So it's very clear that you are a Nightwing fan and not a "Dick Grayson" fan,I'm not 100% sold on this new direction(hell not even 60% to be honest) but I will support it because there is a chance it may allow him to break away from Batman's shadow. If fans had the same mentality as you all the time,then Dick wouldn't even have become Nightwing in the first place. His time as Batman and partnership with Damian is considered one of the most memorable runs with the character ever,right up there with Wolfmans Titans. Nightwing the solo vigilante was a creative flop,that's a cold hard fact,one which you'll undoubtedly refuse to accept but true nonetheless.

In his first ongoing he was a poor mans Daredevil,in the second one a poor man's Batman,I for one want Dick to be more than that.

Oh and Damian IS a great character.

You're argument about being a "dick Grayson" fan or a "Nightwing" fan makes no sense to me- they're one and the same. That'd be like saying, "oh, you're not a Cap fan, you're a Steve Rogers fan. Or oh, you're not a Winter Soldier fan, you're a Bucky fan, or you're a Tony Stark fan, not an Iron Man fan, or vice versa". I don't get that. I am a Dick Grayson fan & a Nightwing fan. There's no separation of identity with Dick & Nightwing, unlike the Bruce/Batman dichotomy. I am lucky enough to have experienced him as Robin & as Nightwing, reading him as Robin from an early age through comics inherited from my dad(Both Batman books and Titans, inc. Silver Age Titans). I read all the way through his evolution to Nightwing,(through a combination of those books & when I started collecting on my own), & every solo series, plus Titans-related stuff, & both is stints as Batman, so I think I have a pretty good understanding of the character. Hell, I'm even looking at my DCU Classics figure of him right now. I was also a fan of Tim Drake & I liked Damian to an extent. But you're missing the point, Dick Grayson IS Nightwing- but at the same time, unlike Batman, that identity was never a "mask". Whether he's Robin or Nightwing or even Batman, he still Dick Grayson & never loses sight of that. His judgment, his mentality, his morality stays the same, & though he was raised by Bruce, he is a very different man than Bruce Wayne. Bruce himself has even said a better man, as any father would want their son to be. In my opinion, he was never a poor man's Daredevil, or a poor man's Batman- as a matter of fact, as I mentioned above, he stood out from Batman when written correctly. (and I have read DD regularly for years, so I think I can judge that pretty well.) So, going by that mind-set, you would rather Dick go from being (your words) a "poor man's DD" and a "poor man's Batman" to becoming a poor man's Winter Soldier? Because that is exactly what the Grayson concept is proposing.

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I know they don't sell the best, but I wish DC did more horror comics in the vein of Swamp Thing instead of crap like Gotham Academy. I love Batman, but I have kind of gotten bored of what DC has been doing to him. The character has been around for 75 years, so I know it is hard to come up with great new stories for him. Maybe they should look back at the classic Bat stories from the 70s, 80s, and 90s for inspiration. Obviously they shouldn't just redo these stories, but they need to do something to give the character back what made him great.

Agreed, both on horror comics & the state of Batman.

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@winter_kills: I have met a considerable number of fans who are more in love with the Nightwing identity than Dick Grasyon,I'm not counting you as among those fans but they do exist and they are rather unreasonable. Dick Grayson the character was never Batman lite or even DD lite,I should have made that clear. When it comes to the mythology and purpose of the character however that's a different story.

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I know they don't sell the best, but I wish DC did more horror comics in the vein of Swamp Thing instead of crap like Gotham Academy. I love Batman, but I have kind of gotten bored of what DC has been doing to him. The character has been around for 75 years, so I know it is hard to come up with great new stories for him. Maybe they should look back at the classic Bat stories from the 70s, 80s, and 90s for inspiration. Obviously they shouldn't just redo these stories, but they need to do something to give the character back what made him great.

Um what? you do realize that DC had an entire line for horror right? not to mention the last few years of Batman stories have also been horror centric,that's Snyder's legacy. Those 80's and 90's stories are precisely what the current Bat books are being influenced by since DC rebooted. The new editor Doyle is thankfully allowing greater creativity and diversity which kind of explains books like Grayson and Gotham Academy. We are moving back to the Morrison era(2008-2011),which was my favorite,Gotham Academy and Grayson are reminding me of Batman and Robin,Streets of Gotham and Stephanie Batgirl which is good imo.

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@winter_kills: No time really to reply to all this, but basicly I agree with your arguments. Especially: How can I be a fan of Nightwing and not of Dick Grayson? Makes no sense, really. Nightwing IS Dick Grayson, and Dick IS Nightwing, whether he is or is not Nightwing at the moment. Seriously. And Dick is also Robin, and Batman, as well as he is Nightwing. Being a fan of the character means I am fan of Dick Grayson, and not only of his particular identity. The same goes, as mentioned before, with Bucky, him being Cap and The Winter Soldier. He's still James Barnes, no matter what.

So, going by that mind-set, you would rather Dick go from being (your words) a "poor man's DD" and a "poor man's Batman" to becoming a poor man's Winter Soldier? Because that is exactly what the Grayson concept is proposing.

Yes. This. Thank you. And Nightwing is his own character. Maybe he looks kinda like a mix between Daredevil, Batman(all those years as Batman's son has its consequences, and good ones, I must say) and Spiderman (the way he jumps around, right?), but only because he has sticks, jumps around, and is the son of Batman, doesn't make him "poor man's DD/Batman".

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@kleo_94: You clearly dont understand,I'm not talking about the superficial aspects of the character but rather the stories and mythology. I'm not saying he's DD lite cause he uses sticks,he's DD lite cause his first ongoing(Dixon era) borrowed many aspects of DD's mythos and gave us diet coke DD. Similarly the recent Higgins ongoing had Dick cleaning up Batman's left overs.

As far as the WS comparisons are concerned,Bucky as WS never had much of mythology of his own. He borrowed Cap's and his own ongoing didn't last long,so aside from being a spy there isn't much Dick can copy from Bucky.

I actually wouldn't at all be surprised if Grayson leads to a WS resurgence,Marvel has more to learn from this than vice versa.

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@entropy_aegis: I still don't see how it's "DD/Batman lite". Sorry. Maybe I'm just not that paranoid about 'who is copying whom', which is evident in DC and Marvel. They do copy each other's ideas so often, it's a normal thing for me that some characters may have similar mythologies, but still these are their own stories. And Dick is not Matt.

As far as the WS comparisons are concerned,Bucky as WS never had much of mythology of his own.

And "Now Dick has a chance to create his own mythology"? Except he already has his own mythology. I see no point in creating a new one for the character like Dick Grayson. For me, he's been Robin, Nightwing, and Batman. But spy? I understand the idea of evolutions of the characters, but it has to stop somewhere. DC is crossing this line.

But, as I said, it's my opinion.

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O look more batman books >.>

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@winter_kills: I have met a considerable number of fans who are more in love with the Nightwing identity than Dick Grasyon,I'm not counting you as among those fans but they do exist and they are rather unreasonable. Dick Grayson the character was never Batman lite or even DD lite,I should have made that clear. When it comes to the mythology and purpose of the character however that's a different story.

Well, I'm not unreasonable- I like Dick Grayson period, when the premise surrounding him is reasonable. I more than think he had his own mythology, when done correctly, esp. when he had his own city, Bludhaven, was more connected to the Titans, etc. But it's when they kept drawing him back into the Bat-universe & bringing him more into the shadow of Batman with all the x-overs & such that they affected Nightwing as a solo character. Nightwing is an excellent solo concept if DC would've just let the writers continue bringing him out of Bamtan's shadow instead of drawing him back in.

As far as the WS comparisons are concerned,Bucky as WS never had much of mythology of his own. He borrowed Cap's and his own ongoing didn't last long,so aside from being a spy there isn't much Dick can copy from Bucky.

.

I don't agree with this. Bucky had an entire history separate from Cap that hasn't been fully explored, that could continue to be explored in the future. His entire Cold War era history, and th fact that he was the "ghost operative" of the Marvel Universe unique. He had connections to the histories of other characters, inc. Black Widow & Wolverine. Brubaker wove an intricate history for Bucky totally separate from Cap, with infinite possibilities of both his past & present that can be explored. The only reason the Winter Soldier ongoing ended was namely because Brubaker left- people had so much loyalty to him, felt that he was Bru's character- & doubted anyone could carry on successfully after him, though I did think Latour & Klein did a great job, they had a big act to follow. That doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who can do a good job- it's a matter of time, & I know even Bru himself would agree. As for the comparisons between the WS & the Grayson concept? C'mon man you gotta see 'em. Bucky is believed dead, & defends the country as a "ghost operative", with only a handful of people knowing he's alive- after "Forever Evil", Dick is believed dead by only a handful of people, and becomes a spec ops/"ghost op" himself- both Dick & Bucky were the partners of prominent characters, and both those characters know the truth of their survival- it's obvious DC saw the success Marvel has had with the concept, and wanted a little of that for their most famous former sidekick, Dick Grayson. Except being a super-spy? That's never been in Dick's repertoire.

@kleo_94 said:

@winter_kills: No time really to reply to all this, but basicly I agree with your arguments. Especially: How can I be a fan of Nightwing and not of Dick Grayson? Makes no sense, really. Nightwing IS Dick Grayson, and Dick IS Nightwing, whether he is or is not Nightwing at the moment. Seriously. And Dick is also Robin, and Batman, as well as he is Nightwing. Being a fan of the character means I am fan of Dick Grayson, and not only of his particular identity. The same goes, as mentioned before, with Bucky, him being Cap and The Winter Soldier. He's still James Barnes, no matter what.

So, going by that mind-set, you would rather Dick go from being (your words) a "poor man's DD" and a "poor man's Batman" to becoming a poor man's Winter Soldier? Because that is exactly what the Grayson concept is proposing.

Yes. This. Thank you. And Nightwing is his own character. Maybe he looks kinda like a mix between Daredevil, Batman(all those years as Batman's son has its consequences, and good ones, I must say) and Spiderman (the way he jumps around, right?), but only because he has sticks, jumps around, and is the son of Batman, doesn't make him "poor man's DD/Batman".

You're welcome, kleo! You understand what I'm saying perfectly. Under the right conditions, with the right creative team, Dick/Nightwing(who are the same character) can stand on his own as a character, & has done so successfully in the past- it's only when DC has screwed around with him in the past that its been a problem. Just like now, Dc's screwing around with him again, I never saw Dick as a "poor man's" anything, but the Grayson concept makes him look like a poor man's Winter Soldier, obviously & painfully. You've been reading the same Dick/Nightwing/Robin/Batman I've been reading for years. If they did a switch-up like this for Bucky, I'd have the same outcry.

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@winter_kills: Always a pleasure to have a conversation with you, I see we understand each other perfectly ^^'.

That's why we like certain characters, because of their personality, background, stories, their indentities and what they do. We love all that makes Bucky Bucky , him being boy soldier, Soviet assassin, Captain America, ghost operative, and above all him being James. All that makes him who he is. And we grow with the characters. If we grow with Dick being Dick, during his time as Robin, Nightwing, and Batman, we grow to love them as they are. Changing them (and Grayson run is defenitely changing the character) is like killing them off and providing us with the character who is no longer the one we know, the one we love, the one we grew up with, but a new character with just the same name. I still see Grayson as something out of character for Dick. Sure he's detective, to an extent, but not secret op. That's just not him, and DC or anyone else won't convince me that it's for the better for Dick. It isn't.

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@kleo_94:

Exactly- we're on the exact same page! You put it all perfectly- we like the characters for who they are- regardless of their costumed identity. I used to have the same kind of argument with my cousin concerning Clint Barton- he was always like "I don't like him in that suit" or whatever- even his current one- and I'm like, he's still Clint Barton! Even when he was Ronin, I liked him if he was still written with the same personality. Even though he's always gonna be Hawkeye to me, I could deal with costume/id changes as long as he was the same old Clint. The same way with Steve, I liked him as Cap & also as just Cpt. Rogers or Steve Rogers: Super-Soldier because he was still the same guy, I love Bucky as his WW2 self, WS & Cap. The same principle applies to Dick, whether he's Nightwing/Robin/Batman- as long as his personality is the same, I'm game. But Dick Grayson, super-spy? Nah. Now if it was a book about Dick Grayson without a costumed identity, but still being a street vigilante? That would work, I'd buy that- but the concept of Grayson is some else's backstory- not his. Like you said, a change like this does kill off the character we know, the character we grew up with- if this is the way they intend Dick to be from now on, in my mind he did die in Forever Evil. Just like several other characters that I loved that got screwed over in the New 52(Wally West, JSA, etc.) I can always go back & read the great stories with that character I loved- the way they're meant to be- instead of a character that becomes unrecognizable. Like I was trying to get entropy_aegis to understand, a fact which you understand perfectly- is the best way for fans to protest a change like this is to not buy the book. Companies like Marvel & DC respond when they're hit where it hurts- the wallet. I refuse to blindly support a run based on a premise or creative team that I don't care for, out of blind loyalty to the character- just like with Cap- when DC or Marvel sees the sales going down, that's when they'll get a new creative team, & things will change. As a matter of fact, that's the best thing that I think we fans can do to make these companies take notice & influence change. Just like I don't support Remender's run on Cap, in hopes that Marvel will pick a better writer, I won't support Grayson, because of the flawed premise- & maybe others will join us & help influence change & get Dick back on track to the character he's supposed to be with a good creative team. If not supporting the book means he gets killed off, I hate that, but that would be DC's stupid ass decision, & in the words of Nick Fury one I'll choose to ignore- because I feel with the premise of Grayson, they've started his character assassination already.

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entropy_aegis

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@winter_kills: I still dont see how they're assassinating his character,he's obviously working to bring down Spyral from the inside and he's not using fire arms either,which doesn't even matter as Batman and the rest have been trained in their use. He's got a good creative team and a bold new direction. Best thing they've done with the character since he became Batman,if you ask me they should've announced this back when the new-52 was announced.It feels like an obvious successor to Grant Morrisons work,and there is lot of untapped potential there. The best part is Seeley cause he's the only writer who has shown a great grasp on Morrisons characters and concepts. The first issue got good reviews and while I obviously cannot forsee how this series will fare in the long run,I do think it will tell an epic tale,one which will stand shoulder to shoulder with Year:One,New Titans and Batman & Robin.

I think you're seeing what you want to see,you think it's a Bucky ripoff and refuse to give it a chance based on that alone. I wont deny that there are similarities with regards to what happened to Bucky and Dick in Fear Itself and Forever Evil respectively but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

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@winter_kills: I still dont see how they're assassinating his character,he's obviously working to bring down Spyral from the inside and he's not using fire arms either,which doesn't even matter as Batman and the rest have been trained in their use. He's got a good creative team and a bold new direction. Best thing they've done with the character since he became Batman,if you ask me they should've announced this back when the new-52 was announced.It feels like an obvious successor to Grant Morrisons work,and there is lot of untapped potential there. The best part is Seeley cause he's the only writer who has shown a great grasp on Morrisons characters and concepts. The first issue got good reviews and while I obviously cannot forsee how this series will fare in the long run,I do think it will tell an epic tale,one which will stand shoulder to shoulder with Year:One,New Titans and Batman & Robin.

I think you're seeing what you want to see,you think it's a Bucky ripoff and refuse to give it a chance based on that alone. I wont deny that there are similarities with regards to what happened to Bucky and Dick in Fear Itself and Forever Evil respectively but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. The concept itself doesn't bother me as bad(besides the fact it is a take-off of Winter Soldier, but I digress), as much as the fact that it's not a necessity. But I digress. I feel that he'll be back to costumed crimefighting in time, anyway. I guess I just want to read Dick the super-hero, not Dick the super-spy. I'll get my super-spy fix from the new Winter Soldier series. Bucky's always been suited for espionage, Dick's always been the swashbuckling crimefighter; it'd be like making Matt Murdock a super-spy, after years of being a crimefighting costumed vigilante, it's a jarring change, & I'd have the same reaction as I do to this. But, to each their own, I hope that the one thing that this series does is further Dick's progression as a character, so he's an even greater hero when he returns to being a super-hero, regardless of what identity he's using.

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@entropy_aegis said:

@winter_kills: I still dont see how they're assassinating his character,he's obviously working to bring down Spyral from the inside and he's not using fire arms either,which doesn't even matter as Batman and the rest have been trained in their use. He's got a good creative team and a bold new direction. Best thing they've done with the character since he became Batman,if you ask me they should've announced this back when the new-52 was announced.It feels like an obvious successor to Grant Morrisons work,and there is lot of untapped potential there. The best part is Seeley cause he's the only writer who has shown a great grasp on Morrisons characters and concepts. The first issue got good reviews and while I obviously cannot forsee how this series will fare in the long run,I do think it will tell an epic tale,one which will stand shoulder to shoulder with Year:One,New Titans and Batman & Robin.

I think you're seeing what you want to see,you think it's a Bucky ripoff and refuse to give it a chance based on that alone. I wont deny that there are similarities with regards to what happened to Bucky and Dick in Fear Itself and Forever Evil respectively but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. The concept itself doesn't bother me as bad(besides the fact it is a take-off of Winter Soldier, but I digress), as much as the fact that it's not a necessity. But I digress. I feel that he'll be back to costumed crimefighting in time, anyway. I guess I just want to read Dick the super-hero, not Dick the super-spy. I'll get my super-spy fix from the new Winter Soldier series. Bucky's always been suited for espionage, Dick's always been the swashbuckling crimefighter; it'd be like making Matt Murdock a super-spy, after years of being a crimefighting costumed vigilante, it's a jarring change, & I'd have the same reaction as I do to this. But, to each their own, I hope that the one thing that this series does is further Dick's progression as a character, so he's an even greater hero when he returns to being a super-hero, regardless of what identity he's using.

That's pretty much the only reason why I'm supportive of this diretion.

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@winter_kills said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@winter_kills: I still dont see how they're assassinating his character,he's obviously working to bring down Spyral from the inside and he's not using fire arms either,which doesn't even matter as Batman and the rest have been trained in their use. He's got a good creative team and a bold new direction. Best thing they've done with the character since he became Batman,if you ask me they should've announced this back when the new-52 was announced.It feels like an obvious successor to Grant Morrisons work,and there is lot of untapped potential there. The best part is Seeley cause he's the only writer who has shown a great grasp on Morrisons characters and concepts. The first issue got good reviews and while I obviously cannot forsee how this series will fare in the long run,I do think it will tell an epic tale,one which will stand shoulder to shoulder with Year:One,New Titans and Batman & Robin.

I think you're seeing what you want to see,you think it's a Bucky ripoff and refuse to give it a chance based on that alone. I wont deny that there are similarities with regards to what happened to Bucky and Dick in Fear Itself and Forever Evil respectively but that's pretty much where the similarities end.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. The concept itself doesn't bother me as bad(besides the fact it is a take-off of Winter Soldier, but I digress), as much as the fact that it's not a necessity. But I digress. I feel that he'll be back to costumed crimefighting in time, anyway. I guess I just want to read Dick the super-hero, not Dick the super-spy. I'll get my super-spy fix from the new Winter Soldier series. Bucky's always been suited for espionage, Dick's always been the swashbuckling crimefighter; it'd be like making Matt Murdock a super-spy, after years of being a crimefighting costumed vigilante, it's a jarring change, & I'd have the same reaction as I do to this. But, to each their own, I hope that the one thing that this series does is further Dick's progression as a character, so he's an even greater hero when he returns to being a super-hero, regardless of what identity he's using.

That's pretty much the only reason why I'm supportive of this diretion.

That I can understand completely. Long-time comic reader cynicism aside, I'm actually a pretty open-minded guy. I actually gave the first issue a try, & while not the best Dick Grayson story by any means, the execution of the premise wasn't as bad as I originally thought, it could've been a lot worse. The covers with Dick holding guns & things like that are a turn-off to a lot of fans, & I'm glad to see that wasn't happening in the issue itself. Like I said, it could've been much worse, considering some of the fiascos I have seen in the New 52(& I don't want you to think I'm just picking on DC, Marvel's made their share of mistakes on things too, like mucking around with Tony Stark's origins, for one, & practically everything they've done with Spidey & the X-Men IMO, & I've been very vocal about how they've been handling Cap lately.) Though admittedly I'm still FAR from a fan of the premise, & I won't be buying the book regularly since it still doesn't capture my interest, & my funds are focused on current books & future books that do hold my interest, as well as other endeavors, I do hope the series has a success in what I mentioned above about Dick's character, & that the series gives DC an idea of what works & what doesn't regarding future projects with him.