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Controversy In Comics: When Is It Genuine?

When is controversy in comics used to promote social commentary and when is it used as a way to garner sales?

Contentious issues exist in our society, so it makes sense that these issues would exist and come into play in many of the comics that we read. Comic books aren't only a form of entertainment, they also often act as social commentary. They provide an outlet for creators and fans of these books to discuss issues found in our news headlines and use stories to provide a discussion about these topics. They have the ability to spark conversation, debate and reflection because lets face it: we don't all always agree.

No Caption Provided

In the last year, for example, the issue of same-sex marriage has really taken center stage in this country (more recently due to the Supreme Court's hearing of whether or not Prop 8 -- which eliminated the rights of same-sex couples to marry in California -- is constitutional). In the last year we also saw the very first same-sex marriage ceremony in mainstream comics in ASTONISHING X-MEN #51, which featured the marriage of Northstar and Kyle. This is a great example of comics taking a topic that is really present in our society, and bringing these issues into the stories we read. It's a reflection of reality, to an extent: same-sex marriage exists in our reality and therefore is brought into various forms of our entertainment. From television, to film, and yes, even to the comics we read. However, is the inclusion of these issues a natural progression of these characters and an honest way of bringing diversity to comics, or is it simply for the "hype"? At the end of the day, comics are a creative medium, but they also have to sell. And let's face it, there's nothing like a bit of controversy to get comics flying off the shelves, right?

BATGIRL #19
BATGIRL #19

Late last week the internet was abuzz with a recent development of a certain character in writer Gail Simone's BATGIRL series. According to sources like the Huffington Post and even the Human Rights Campaign, DC comics had introduced the very first transgender character to mainstream comics (even though that wasn't the first, but we will get into that later). In the issue in question Barbara Gordon revealed to her roommate Alysia Yeoh that she had endured some trying times: from being shot by the Joker, to recovering from paralysis, to the the fact that her brother is a complete nut-job. In return for Barbara's honesty, Alysia revealed that she is in fact transgender. This is a pretty significant moment in the issue and it comes during a conversation where the two characters are revealing much of their innermost secrets. They are trusting one another with personal information and as a result, this is a sensitive point in the story, and should have been significant, but was it genuine? Did the panel where Alysia revealed that that she is transgender feel genuine, or did it feel like a plot device that was inserted into the story in order to gain traction? Regardless of the intent, the moment did in fact gain traction and by the time the week was through even NPR was talking about it. The news of the "first transgender character in mainstream comics" had sparked a conversation that made national headlines.

DEMON KNIGHTS #14
DEMON KNIGHTS #14

However, these outlets had it wrong as Alysia Yeoh was not the first introduction of a transgender character to mainstream comics. In fact, DC Comics had at least one other reveal of a transgender character to mainstream comics earlier this year and that is an honor that goes to Sir Ystin, DC's Shining Knight. In DEMON KNIGHTS #14 following a battle that nearly took their lives, Sir Ystin and Exoristos engage in a conversation. During this exchange Exoristos reveals that she feels very close to Shining Knight and implies that her feelings are of the romantic kind. This results in Sir Ystin's reveal of not being "just a man or woman," but that Ystin is "both." The scene was far more subtle than Alysia's reveal to Barbara and it also feels natural in a very different way. If this is a subject to be brought up, then a romantic exchange seems the most likely scenario in which to do it. The moment was brief, and the story moved on in a different direction very quickly, but that moment still felt compelling. It did not feel like a plot device because it was inserted into a point in the story where it felt natural: it was the natural progression of the character and that moment. Additionally, the fact that artist Bernard Chang (you can read our interview with him from earlier today, here) illustrated Sir Ystin as this rather androgynous looking character really helped; giving Ystin both male and female attributes gave the inclination that this is something very much at the core of Ystin's character and something the Paul Cornell (the series' writer at the time) had intended all along. This did not feel like merely a plot device.

What do you think? Do you feel there are moments in comics that feel less than genuine? Do you think that by referencing contentious issues publishers are promoting awareness to the topics in question, or simply piggy-backing on the issues to potentially garner more sales? Are there moments you can think of that felt really genuine to you?

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bloggerboy

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@colonelrunaway said:

I'd say the New 52's had plenty of more in-your-face controversy.

"Let's make the least-known Green Lantern gay! That'll show how progressive we are!"

"But... Doesn't that erase his children, a pre-existing gay character and the only female human GL?"

"Ah, nobody cares about them anyway!"

"...Okay. And it says here you want to add a Muslim Green Lantern?"

"Yes! Challenge the post-9/11 jingoism!"

"But you want him to be a thief and use a gun?"

"Hey, nobody's perfect."

"...Uh-huh. Well what about John Stewart? He's a minority character, and probably the best-known Green Lantern among the non-fans, but we don't seem to be doing much with him."

"The black one? S***, I dunno, kill 'im off to make room maybe?"

You are a really good BS translator.

And another point to Demon Knights. The series proves time and again just how awesome it is.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@babs Is SIr Yistin transgender or intersex?

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ColonelRunAway

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Edited By ColonelRunAway

@avengers_4everxx said:

@colonelrunaway: You do realize that whether Alan Scott was made gay or not, Jade and Obsidian still wouldn't have existed because the character is now in his late twenties?

This would assume that changing his age, and the ages of the rest of the Earth-2 cast, was any more necessary than changing his sexuality.

And are you aware that being gay in no way prevents him from having biological children?

Well gee whiz, thanks for pointing out that rather large gap in my common f***ing sense. But then with the whole de-aging factor that you brought up, not to mention the vaporization of his fiance, the book seems to betray an intention not to feature a surrogacy plot point in the near future, now don't it? And hell, I doubt even DC's harshest critics think they're stupid enough to have Alan back out now and start knocking up the ladies, while even their loyalest defenders probably don't think they give enough of a s*** about Obsidian or Jade to do it.

Yet by this logic, if Obsidian's relationship to Alan isn't enough to warrant so much as his continued existence,then surely Alan couldn't have been particularly well known to begin with. And the marketing of the time essentially confirms it, hyping up this mystery character coming out of the closet, only to reveal that it was someone not connected to their primary universe, and who many newer fans hadn't even heard of. Just bold enough to get attention, just safe enough to not affect a majority of readers.

Batwoman doesn't even fit in the former category, as it's been established that Kathy Kane and Kate Kane are two separate characters who've both existed in the same universe. If anything, Kate's more of a hybrid between the latter, with her ties to Batman and 52, and the pre-Flashpoint Micheal Holt, a minority character taking up the mantle of a pre-existing but ultimately obscure hero.

Look, I have no more problem with Alan Scott being gay than I do Simon Baz being Muslim or John Stewart being black. It disheartens me that a character I love has essentially been erased and replaced with someone else, but with his personality, age, background, family, origin costume and powers all changed, there's no point in acting like homosexuality was the last straw in this version not being the same one I grew up with, or that it'll be some barrier in me ever coming like him for what he now is.

Furthermore, as an African American, Liberal, and overall human being with a f***ing soul, I can thoroughly sympathize with the desires/difficulties of trying to diversify a medium where the most successful franchises have been dominated by straight white males for five to eight decades.

The burr up my ass comes from a company which repeatedly broadcasts that it views such attitudes less as a moral or even logical obligation than as a temporary gimmick for profits. Now I have plenty of faith that Simone and Cornell wrote what they did out of genuine desires to be progressive. I'll even give Robinson the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't expect DC to market his Alan Scott the way they did. But when the corporate reaction has consistently been to make a huge deal out of whatever hip, new minority character comes along only to forget them by the end of the month, all while pre-existing characters continue to be objectified and tokenized, Regardless of what some of the individual creators may believe, DC doesn't project an image of standing up for controversial issues. It's an image if standing up just long enough and loud enough to make a profit. No more, no less.

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arnoldoaad

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Edited By arnoldoaad

@babs:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/133524/2987929-9817043638-citiz.gif

Good Job Babs, Good Job

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arnoldoaad

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@girlinfourcolors said:

I love how people are saying Alysia's coming out has been "forced" when she has LITERALLY been trying to come out to Barbara since they moved in together in THE VERY FIRST ISSUE OF THE SERIES.

Seriously, this moment has been building for almost two years. Two years spent developing her into a fully realized character, with passions and politics all her own, with identities that have nothing to do with her being trans. But this is somehow "forced."

C'mon, people, take your bigotry somewhere else.

I generally dont get angry in this forum or see trolling or that kind of stuff and I may not agree with everyone

but this is one of The stupidiest comments I have ever seen since im in Comic Vine

I have read the series, I read the first Issue and I have no idea what the hell you are talking about when you mean that this has been building up for 2 years, Alysia for this 2 years has been one of the most irrelevant characters in the series.

she is so irrelevant that we as readers know absolutely nothing about her other than she is the roommate. She is barely a character and this revelation from issue 19 is not only the most important thing that we know of the character, it is the ONLY THING that we know about her.

It is a defining characteristic that just tags her as "THAT TRANS CHARACTER"

It does come out of nowhere and the disgust of most people doesnt come from the fact that she is trans but from the fact that NOBODY CARES!

No one cares about alysia as a character, I dont mind that she is trans, I just dont care about it and is because Simone just couldnt possibly create a much boring, lifeless and pointless character

and Now suddenly she wants me to care.

Why?Because she used to have a penis and no other reason.

This is not Bigotry. This is just a complain on HACK WRITING

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scouts1998

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dc have gone over the top with all these diverse characters

it's the one reason they didn't kill john Stewart

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Queen's Halo

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DC and Marvel as well as most comic book publishers are businesses first and foremost. Anything that gets published has been picked to sell. Social commentary from them is minimal at best and most definitely a plot device.

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AkaBoAli

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Like any social change, these things happen gradually and with time. So when we feel that publishers are forcing these social elements in our faces and just adding them just for the sake for having them there in their universe, people tend to react negatively.

Don't force these things on your readers, build up a character, yes mention that this character is different but is an organic way and don't write stories based on this special element that a character has. For example, don't change the normal story line of a character just because this character is gay. We are all human being in the end, yes some are different, but that what makes us a community of individuals.

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Lvenger

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Aren't there any more transgender characters in comics? I have to say the one in Demon Knights was executed far superbly to the one in Batgirl. In any case, comics are just introducing shock horror events for the sake of them now. Death and subsequent resurrections are riper than ever, change is implemented for the sake of change rather than to further the plot or a character's development and although minorities, people of an alternate sexuality and others are getting time in the spotlight, it's not always for the best reasons.

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Edited By SolthesunGod

I have thoughts, but I find myself restricted by terminology. Transgender people have a gender identity that does not match their physical sex.

If Ystin's claim to be "not just a man or a woman [but] both," is to be taken literally, we'd call him intersexed (hermaphroditism is a specific kind of intersexuality, and the term is seen as stigmatizing). Intersexed people could have either sexual phenotype, ambiguous genitalia, underdeveloped gonads, or any of a dozen of conditions.

That line could be taken very figuratively, as a poetic way of identifying as a homosexual. Although being from a pre-Christian society, that typically wouldn't have the negative stigma it has in our modern world.

Because the book is in a time period before sexual reassignment surgery, I wouldn't use the term transexual because it is primarily used for/by people who desire a full surgical transition. I don't know if Shining Knight is, technically speaking, transgendered, because I don't think he ever transitioned from one gender identity to another. And I know not all transitions require surgery or hormones, even today.

After reading the article I was just about to post this. I wouldn't think that Shinning Knight is transexual as he was born with sexual attributes of both genders but identifies as male. It's not the same as transgender were someone is born physically as one gender but mentality another.

Sorry @babs, I do agree with the sentiment you meant though even if the terminology was off. Best case scenario is that some comic creators are so supportive of gay rights they are blinded by the fact that they aren't necessarily writing gay characters in logical ways. But I kind of agreed with Corey in this weeks podcast were he said he thought gay marriage was being treated like any marriage in comics. Where it happens and it makes no sense then it's over. Storm and Black Panther Exhibit A.

No Caption Provided

I also would have thought that Wanda Mann would be the first transgender DC character?

She was in Sandman. Sandman is one of the most popular and consistently best selling comic books of all time. Wouldn't it be considered mainstream at this point?

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feebadger

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Edited By feebadger

I think comics will inevitably reflect the cultural climate in which they are being written; if they don't, then they're doing something wrong. I've been working for about a year now on a thesis proposing that superhero comics are America's mythology. This article reflects that idea pretty strongly. Mythologies are bodies of stories created to tell a cultural narrative, the story of a civilization. Isn't that what we're seeing here? We're seeing the issues that exist in our lives and our world reflected in these heroes and villains. X-men #1 was published just after Martin Luther King Jr. made his I have a dream speech, a comic about racial minorities. When we are gone, these stories will reflect who we were and what we were dealing with, the same way that we understand ancient Greece in part through Homer and the tales of Perseus, Hercules, and other heroes. So yeah, it might be fair to chalk it up to hype. I think that's a huge part of why it's included. But the only reason it IS hype is because it's present and relevant in the modern world. My two cents.

Absolutely couldn't agree more.

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Mrfuzzynutz

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As a black male, I had to go through gut wrenching moments in comics during the 80's when "Angry Black Man" was in fashion, so the wheel of progress is focusing on the gay/lesbian community for better or for worse.

The more stories the more chance for growth, so while The Batgirl moment came off forced, the topic is on the table now, for not only Gail to expand on, but another writer to work with, or even better a transgendered fan being motivated to become the next generation creator as a result.

Good or Bad in the handling of the subject, it is about the awareness it raises that has the most impact.

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fotocub

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You know, I'd be much more open to the content of this article if so much time wasn't spent on the last podcast (as on many in the past) disparaging the Batgirl series in question. Nothing wrong with disliking a comic, but the lengths to which it (and its author) is discussed negatively is so unproductive in relation to all the positive things that can be said about any comic you do like.

But on topic, as someone who HAS come out (as gay) to friends and family in the past, the moment felt more genuine than you can imagine. In fact, it may not be the most dramatic storytelling, but most of those moments (luckily) and THE most desired outcome for someone in that moment is that scene there. All you want is someone to say, "I love you." If that's not genuine, I don't know what is.

As far as it seeming like a ploy, I have to say careful reading over the course of the series would illuminate that Alysia has tried several times to have this conversation with Babs, and her development as a character who has many facets (aspiring chef, dedicated activist, kind friend, self-sufficient woman trained in self-defense and first aid) is evident throughout. I'm sorry to say that most people who feel this revelation makes her a one-note character are simply projecting their own bias.

And by the way, whoever put "Attractive Male" on the ComicVine profile for Alysia Yeoh under "Powers" should be deeply ashamed of themselves. Can you help with policing this behavior, Sara?

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Beast_in_the_Shadows

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The reveal in Batgirl did seem a bit out of nowhere, but in this case I could see that adding to it's realism. I imagine a lot of people in her situation find the story of their gender awkward at best to discuss with others and therefore might put off the issues until it becomes to late to tell them without it seeming like they were hiding it. In this scene, Babs was opening up about things she hadn't told her roommate before and that gave her the courage and opportunity to tell her situation.

It could be a case of cashing in on controversial trends, but as long as they let the character be natural and not a gimmick then it should be ok. As long as everything about her doesn't revolve around the fact that she used to be a guy, then its fine. Yes, the issue should come up on occasions, but only when it is progressive to the story and not her defining feature.

That's what makes it feel kinda of exploitative is that they made a huge deal about it, rather than just another moment in the story. That they patted themselves on the back and puffed out their chest rather saying "Look how progressive we are"

Alternative lifestyles need to be handled in a manner similar to feminism. Feminists didn't call for special treatment or reparations, simply equality. Don't create a character so they can be your gay character, simply create a character with their own stories to tell and let their sexuality feature just as seldom and as unstated as the other characters.

But I suppose everything has to start somewhere. Things often need to be controversial, then radical, then common place.

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hushicho

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Pretty much all of the stupid controversies are just exploitation of 'controversial' groups and tend to cheapen that group's struggles for equality because Marvel or DC want to get free publicity due to someone thinking it's 'shocking'. If they didn't think it would sell a few more comics for a little while, we'd never even have 'out' characters, and that is really telling.

You haven't even scratched the surface of the other transgender characters that exist (and existed long before these) in comics, not to mention gay and lesbian characters that were out and far predated Marvel and DC's attempts to be 'trendy' and 'timely' and of course sell more comics by exploiting a group. Northstar getting married? Cheap. It was only done because Marvel wanted to effectively end the character's use and hadn't been able to kill him off despite several attempts. Today, marriage of any kind is dull and tends to spell the essential nadir of a character. In the 80s it was a big thing, today it's ho-hum because nobody cares...unless it's gay marriage. That's still novel enough and enough of a discussion issue that they knew they could get the free publicity. And at the same time, since it's marriage they can write off the character and mate -- who cares about them now?

Even Archie's Kevin Keller character is, at his root, nothing but an overtly gay Jughead whose stories are a parade of embarrassing gay stereotypes and hot topics, without any real novelty or wit added to them. And Archie, though hailed for being 'progressive', just jump on whatever bandwagon happens to be hot at the moment, then eventually it's forgotten. Look at the (for a while genuinely amusing) Cheryl Blossom.Good luck finding her anywhere now.

The big companies have more or less inured people to sensationalistically killing off characters, and they're tired of it. So now they have to move to other things they haven't beaten like a dead horse.

Essentially what needs to be considered here is, if one of the big companies like Marvel, DC, or Archie are doing anything, it's probably just to pull the spotlight onto themselves. It isn't for any humanitarian reason, nor artistic; it's just them trying to exploit a group of people and make a buck doing it, and if they can fool some gullible (if often well-meaning) people desperate for recognition and validation from others, all the better. That's how they've managed to justify plenty of execrable stories, characters, and members of their not-so-creative teams.

Smaller press and independent comics don't tend to do that. And frankly the US is just about the only major comic publishing country in the world where GLBTQ characters are that much of an exploitable issue. Because it's the big companies like Marvel and DC that keep sequential art dragging behind thanks to their own example. They haven't learned anything. And thanks to their visibility, it's easy for them to influence others' perceptions of sequential art and comics as a whole, as a puerile, childish, and opportunistic medium.

And that, to me, is a shame. Honestly, it's a tragedy.

Don't be fooled by these companies. They're out to make a buck, they're not out to champion any real causes or further any social progress. They're out to exploit causes and ride on the coattails of any progress.

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RedheadedAtrocitus

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This very question is partially why I am interested in getting "Green Team" and "The Movement" in the upcoming months. I have no doubt partially its hype in trying to draw in comic sales but still, there is social commentary to be had. The issue is whether it is welcomed by us the fans or not. I mean its no secret that the Movement was taken from of the OWS movement not too long ago whereas Green Team is no doubt an allegory of America's socioeconomic elite. Sure, at times its irksome when comics become political preachy, but as long as they don't go all overboard with it, why not?

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Parsifal24

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I think it all goes down to authorial intent as an example James Robinson’s recent choice to make Earth 2 Green Lantern (Alan Scott) a homosexual, struck me as a gimmick, also I have problems with when it feels like it’s an author pushing an agenda. Astonishing X-Men North Star I think handled the homosexual marriage issue extremely well.

By not only being overly polemical in support of homosexual marriage, but also by having Warbird object to the relationship than have North Star respect Warbird’s objections was a great way to acknowledge a difference of opinion and no one’s the “bad guy.”

I have problems when creators decide to make “socially conscious” stories as depending on the intent it can end up being agitprop not art. As far as the greater meta textual or societal aspects of the questions it’s disturbing for me to see Homosexuality and Transgenderism “Celebrated” so openly as at the end of the day my world view is formed from The Bible and it’s teachings on sexuality and gender.

As far as fiction goes I have no problem with Homosexual or Transgender characters if it’s done right Kate Kane is a perfect example of doing it right as her sexuality is a part of her and not her sole defining characteristic. Also as far as Shining Knight goes Demon Knights (correct me if I’m wrong) takes place before Grant Morrison’s Seven Solders of Victory series, so Ystina’s gender confusion could be what she was like prior to the end of Seven Solders where she is clearly self-identifying as a girl. Of course this is all speculation and theory so I could be wrong.

All in all I feel if a charcter’s gender or sexuality is a natural aspect of their character I don’t have problems with it that much I just don’t like when an creator feels they need to “teach” society.

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blackkitty

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Edited By blackkitty

I actually have 2 transgender friends myself and I understand this issues they go through. Both are male identifying as female. For Shining Knight, sure, I get where this was going and all, thought to me the idea of a female who identified herself as male was far more interesting to me than the direction they chose to take it as I felt that would give them far more story options.

But, they chose to do this, no bells or whistles or hype which tells me it was simply a thought out story and not sensationalized. Now I find myself wondering, the idea to make Alan Scott gay seems to me to be a pure reaction to Northstar's popularity in the media, so they chose to make one of their main characters gay. DC needs to do more stories like Demon Knights and less sensationalized spectacles.

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queenfrost_

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Edited By queenfrost_

It actually makes me sick that no one cried 'controversy' when we found out the Joker was murdering damian, a child, but instead when a young adult character comes out as transgender. GET OVER IT. 21st century. Hey I don't know if you knew this but the LGBTQ youth also read comics. Yes folks, the youth can be LGBTQ!!! Who'd have thought!?!? Young people...not being straight...huh? Forced or not, we should be happy that comics are getting more exposure to the LGBTQ community and especially with Batgirl who has an audience that is mainly younger adults.

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kalorama

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Well, the baseline (and one would think, obvious) answer to the question posed in the subtitle of the commentary is that controversy is always used as a way to garner sales. That doesn't mean it can't also serve other purposes, but the primary goal of Marvel and DC is to sell comics. Period. Their only goal in posting solicitations and releasing teasers and spoilers about aspects of upcoming stories is to entice people into wanting to read/buy them. And an upcoming story that contains some "controversial" element that will help garner discussion/debate and generate buzz well in advance of the story's release is good for business. Commercial publishers are not in the business of promoting social change. That doesn't mean they can't or that they aren't conscious of their capacity to do so, but all intentions are secondary to the goal of selling comics. And as long as the stories they produce in pursuit of that goal are well-told and entertaining, then that's fine.

Point being, whether a moment in a particular story feels "genuine" usually has nothing to do with whether they're trying to use the story to sell comics, because they're always trying to use the story to sell comics. It has to do with the skill and craft of the creators (writers, artists, and editors) tasked with executing the story.

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Betatesthighlander1

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@solthesungod: Oh God, Wanda man

that was probably the saddest funeral I've ever observed in any medium

and Wanda was an actual character

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doctoraquaman

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Edited By doctoraquaman

I actually thing a Doom Patrol character named Coagula predates all of the transgender characters mentioned here.

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consolemaster001

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It actually makes me sick that no one cried 'controversy' when we found out the Joker was murdering damian, a child, but instead when a young adult character comes out as transgender. GET OVER IT. 21st century. Hey I don't know if you knew this but the LGBTQ youth also read comics. Yes folks, the youth can be LGBTQ!!! Who'd have thought!?!? Young people...not being straight...huh? Forced or not, we should be happy that comics are getting more exposure to the LGBTQ community and especially with Batgirl who has an audience that is mainly younger adults.

The hell is LGBTQ ?

All i know is LGBT

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dementedtheclown

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EWWWWWWWWWWWW DUDE LOOK LIKE A LADY!

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DadaHyena

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Exploitation gets more and more obvious when creators are desperate, and none of the examples shown in this article really feel like that. Alysia being transgender doesn't seem like a huge "shock" (as opposed to, say, Alysia really being Clayface in disguise).

If it fits into the story at hand without feeling obviously shoehorned in, then there's not reason to call it controversy. It's story-telling.

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CptPanda29

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They should just not make a big deal out of it, as it isn't.

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HexThis

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Well, I am seconding everyone's sentiments about how being transgendered and intersexed are two entirely different things to start with. Also, I don't get the sense there's anything contrived about Alysia's coming out, it makes perfect sense to me what Gail Simone is trying to accomplish.

She's trying to emphasize, like many writers of superhero comics, Barbara's isolation as a costumed vigilante and how that prevents her from becoming too attached to civilians. Here she is living with somebody and cannot disclose a very large part of her identity. In a lot of ways, many people who are transgendered can live with similar fears of being "exposed" or being too identifiable as transgendered and thus discriminated against. Apparently, Alysia is willing to share with Barbara her distinct situation because she feels she owes it to her as an important person in her life, mirroring Barbara's inner-dialogue contemplation of "coming out" so to speak. No shock value in that, just a brilliant parallel.

Now, as for Northstar....

The only real objection I have is why on earth would you shackle him to a husband? His character is independent, witty, arrogant, strong-willed...he should be having affairs, he should be having drama like any other character, he should be living it out a bit more.

Marvel seems to have watered down Northstar. I look to Rictor and Shatterstar's relationship for realism where gay couples are concerned. Or Wiccan and Hulkling maybe.

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IronAngelX

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Everything in the last year has felt forced. Between Marvel and DC it was almost like they weren't trying to do anything for originality or story but just trying to out do the other as far as controversy. If it was really heartfelt in any decisions, they wouldn't make such a big deal about it all. X-Men's gay marriage, Green Lantern Alan Scott being gay, new Green Lantern Simon Baz being Muslim, and now all this Transgender stuff. I don't think actually care about it for the story, they just want the attention.

Why not make a Christian character? Just a thought

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nappystr8

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Here's how I see it, the issues spoken of here are not the inclusion of social issues, they are the inclusion of certain groups of people who we haven't seen in comics often before; mainly GLBT characters. Back in the 60's and 70's the comic industry went through the same struggles with characters of color. There were no, or close to no people of color writing comics, comic writers generally didn't understand the black community. Therefore the creations they came up with were often stereotypical, misinformed, or for some other reason simply felt forced. Now 40 years later, some of these once hokey characters have become some of the strongest in comics.

Today, there are few if any members of the GLBT community who write comic books, so the characters they come up with and the storylines the implement around these characters may feel stereotypical, misinformed, or otherwise forced. So what? Does one odd scene in a Batgirl comic ruin the rest of the issue? I would assume not. It's a small price to pay to set comics on a path to where they are more inclusive and welcoming to all types of people.

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filmboy85

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Although this specific instance in Batgirl wasn't handled as well as it could have been, it should be noted that big personal moments in real life can happen awkwardly and without much grace. Furthermore, Alysia's a character who's been in the series throughout Simone's run, and this is simply another aspect of her life being revealed to the reader. I think it's somewhat indicative of the fact that, as a society, we remain concerned about categorising sexual orientation and gender identity and don't simply accept diversity that we see there as having to be a justification for a character to differ from the 'norm' at all. Characters are imagined people, and can thus vary in all the ways that human beings vary. It still feels as if people expect characters to start out white (although we're finally seeing less hysteria about racial diversity) and hetero and, if a character differs from that, there has to be a tactful reason for it. Alysia's been in the series as a notable supporting character for awhile now, and considering the events of the last issue, will most likely become a more important character as Barbara ends up necessarily distanced from the other people in her life. Simone's an avid supporter of diversity and LGBTQ rights, but when interviewed about this she talked about being at a convention and looking into the audience and seeing people she knew who were LGBTQ and loved comics, and thinking that the casts of comics should reflect the diversity of their readerships. As with any LGBTQ person, Alysia's gender identity is only a small part of her character. This aspect should just reflect that, when it comes to gender identity, there are many personal variations. It would be problematic if Alysia was introduced right off the bat as transgendered and that was the only element of her character ever expressed, but that's not what happened here. A page of awkward writing shouldn't lead to a condemnation of Simone's intentions, and the fact that this is enough to stir up 'controversy' (not saying this applies to anyone here) probably says more about our society than the actual content of the book.

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AmericanSONE

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@colonelrunaway: I could be wrong and if I am I hope you'll clarify, but I think you're confusing rebooting the DC universe with forcing a gimmick for the sake of selling a few more comics. If you want to get technical nothing needed to change at DC. The answer to the question of why did Alan Scott have to be gay and have his entire backstory changed: it didn't have to, but they felt like it so they did it. He's not gay so DC can tout their gay character. He's gay because that's just what they felt like doing, and it was executed perfectly.

Furthermore your comments seem very "read between the lines". DC rebooted, many characters changed, some lost all their backstory and some didn't, but this is the one you're going after? If you don't like that he doesn't have children now and details about his daily life changed significantly that's something I can understand, even if I enjoy the N52 version more. But to emphasize his being gay as a gimmick to push a "progressive" agenda is nonsense and a little offensive to those of us who don't have the luxury of choosing between hundreds (if not thousands) of characters with the same or similar lifestyles and sexual preferences.

Also lets say you're right and there's a "progressive" agenda to get more LGBT characters into comics. Lets say its totally based on sales statistics. If the character is done well and the comic itself is good, who cares? Is that a bad thing? Saying they're doing it for attention and money can easily be rephrased as "They're adding gay characters because people want gay characters." That's literally a sign of progression, which is the point of being "progressive". The "progressive agenda" is the agenda of moving humanity forward: like being open minded and accepting of different people. Progressive isn't a bad word.

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CrazyScarecrow

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@colonelrunaway: Exactly how I felt with Alan Scott. What also ticked me off about the changes they made to him were his costume change. One of the reasons I loved Alan before New 52 was for his costume. I think that is one of the coolest Lantern costumes ever! But with this reboot they made it just like any other Lanterns.

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ColonelRunAway

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@americansone: I already used pretty much this exact response to someone else, but I'll repeat myself to save you the trouble of scrolling around for it (at least, I'm pretty sure you're responding to my first comment and not my clarification).

I have absolutely no problem with Alan being gay. I'm disappointed that the version of the character which I like has essentially been erased, and that other characters I like who were connected to him were completely erased, but with practically everything besides his gender and hair changed, it's not like his sexuality was the last straw. And just because he's different doesn't mean I don't like the new version. I've found a lot of Earth-2 poorly written, but Alan's had some great scenes.

And I really wish I didn't have to say this just to get my point across, but as an African American and general liberal, I do fully understand the desires and difficulties of trying to diversify the medium.

My problem isn't DC having an agenda to be more progressive. It's DC having an agenda to look progressive.

I'll give James Robinson the benefit of the doubt and assume that he pitched a new gay Alan Scott out of genuine good intentions. But DC then ran with that and went out of their way to make sure everyone knew a major pre-existing character coming out of the closet. Never mentioning in any of those press releases that it was a character limited to another universe, and who many newer readers would be completely unfamiliar with. And in the months since, they've given the book minimal attention.

Then look what happened again with Simon Baz. They made a huge deal about this new Muslim character, only to focus the book back on Hal and Sinestro a few issues later. And from the solicits, it looks like it'll continue to be all about Hal while Simon gets kicked to the Justice League b-team.

And then look at controversies like with Starfire and Power Girl's portrayals, or the attempts to kill John Stewart and fire Gail Simone, and plenty of other examples.

When you look at the business practices of, say, Chick-fil-a, sure there's a lot of Christian, right-wing, or downright homophobic bias that I strongly disagree with, but they're so consistent with it that I can at least give the CEOs or whoever props for doing what they genuinely believe is right, even when I and a majority of others don't.

With DC on the other hand, they've consistently managed to preach messages I do believe in just long enough and loud enough to boost sales, but once the short term benefits dry up, they downplay it at best and become actively hypocritical at worst.

It's one thing to disagree with, or even not care about someone's values, it's another to feign them for money.

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cbishop

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lykopis

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Whether you feel it's a gimmick/non-organic or what have you, it's not like these characters are going to "revert" back to whatever some readers might think they were once the newness wears off. Most of society automatically assumes a male as being attracted to a female and female to male and females and males identifying themselves as the gender they physically appear to be. When you do not subscribe to any of these "norms" there is a very real push from not just society but within yourself to hide, withhold or not make a point to declare where you fit. When do you mention you are transgender to your school friends? When they are in the midst of discussing the physical attributes of Hugh Jackman? It's not so simple and I am sure it's one of the most difficult things for transgender or intersexed and gay and bi-sexual people go through, especially when interacting with new people.

I saw nothing inorganic in how this character revealed themselves as transgender. In terms of story-telling, the conversation was centred around deep secrets and revealing them to someone you trust and while being transgender isn't so much a secret, it is something intensely intimate and personal and so just as difficult to discuss. Why is one story where gender identification is revealed due to romantic intent considered more "real" than one where romantic intent isn't? Gender identity isn't about who you are sexually or romantically attracted to -- it's who you are and how you feel inside. I like being a girl. I look like a girl. I don't have the faintest idea of how transgender feel but I seriously doubt it effects them only when they are attracted to someone. It's constant.

Whatever gender (or no gender for that matter) you identify with is a huge part of who you are. How you interact with other people - family, friends, potential lovers, co-workers or even acquaintances is very much an everyday and increasing weight on your psyche. So to me, the presentation in Batgirl as opposed to other stories is great in that it reveals there is no perfect opportunity in which to divulge that huge piece of yourself -- just opportunity, period. An opportunity presented itself and it was taken and it felt very real and very undramatic and so, that's it.

As for controversy - meh -- if there is any, that's on society. If it's making noise (even if it was part of a press release presented by the comic company in question), then good. Then this kind of discussion is generated and to me it's always a good thing.

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detective38

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Keep social and political statements out of my comic book world please. I read comics to escape reality, not examine what's going on in the real world

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Sufferthorn

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I'm against this whole thing entirely. It's completely unnecessary. This is about superheroes, not sex. Stop putting superheroes in these situations.

Used to be a time when Superhero comics used to be about getting kids to read them, and they weren't filled with adult content such as blood, gore, and odd sexual preferences...or anything sexual at all for that matter. Just chalk that up to the board as another on the list of things to watch out for when screening a comic book for your kids to read.

Read a New Avengers comic recently, first thing that happens is that Luke Cage and Jessica are in bed. Skip a few panels and you have more disgusting gore and violence than any 7 year old should be allowed to see without getting the crap scared out of him.

I mean, BATGIRL?! Wow, way to completely squash the continuity of that character for me.

I know i'm going to get flamed for this post, but to me, a Superhero story is about how heroes overcome villains and work togethor. Isn't that a better message than spouting off political views?

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Avengers_4everXX

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@v_scarlotte_rose: Actually they're both Kate Kane. The silver age character was re-introduced after Infinite Crisis.

Regardless, what I meant was, the identity of Batwoman is pre-established. When I mention Batwoman, even to non-comic readers, they have an idea of who I'm talking about

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V_Scarlotte_Rose

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@avengers_4everxx: I know, the similar name kinda makes it seem like they're supposed to be the same person.

I think I get what you mean though. Like, the character who is currently known as Batwoman is gay when the original was straight. I suppose if they replaced Spider-Man with a gay man, all the news places would be saying they've turned Spider-Man gay. Just depends on how you look at things I suppose.

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dernman

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It actually makes me sick that no one cried 'controversy' when we found out the Joker was murdering damian, a child, but instead when a young adult character comes out as transgender. GET OVER IT. 21st century. Hey I don't know if you knew this but the LGBTQ youth also read comics. Yes folks, the youth can be LGBTQ!!! Who'd have thought!?!? Young people...not being straight...huh? Forced or not, we should be happy that comics are getting more exposure to the LGBTQ community and especially with Batgirl who has an audience that is mainly younger adults.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you Joker never killed him.

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COBRAMORPH

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Sir Ystin could just be refering to how she was born female, but has to act as a guy would, doesnt mean she was born a different set of parts. As for being drawn androgynous, I think its just that all 3 of those panels are drawn as ugly art.

As for controversy, I feel most of it is done on purpose now. In this refrigeriator era, killing off Spoiler, or implying that Isis was raped, or making Batwoman gay, all is done to attract attention to their product. The social commentary is secondary. Not saying its not there, the writers/artists may know gay people, female victims, etc, but DC editoral cares only to have the gay audiance, & the pervy guys who want hot lesbian action.

No different than the "big summer events"

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Queso6p4

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@master_thief said:

Yeah that batgirl thing felt kinda forced

@xanni15 said:

That reveal seemed out of nowhere, but like you said they have to sell comics.

Agreed. Babs hasn't spent much time with her roommate. If she had this wouldn't feel so forced.

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Vaeternus

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@colonelrunaway said:

I'd say the New 52's had plenty of more in-your-face controversy.

"Let's make the least-known Green Lantern gay! That'll show how progressive we are!"

"But... Doesn't that erase his children, a pre-existing gay character and the only female human GL?"

"Ah, nobody cares about them anyway!"

"...Okay. And it says here you want to add a Muslim Green Lantern?"

"Yes! Challenge the post-9/11 jingoism!"

"But you want him to be a thief and use a gun?"

"Hey, nobody's perfect."

"...Uh-huh. Well what about John Stewart? He's a minority character, and probably the best-known Green Lantern among the non-fans, but we don't seem to be doing much with him."

"The black one? S***, I dunno, kill 'im off to make room maybe?"

I totally agree, and most of it really has no relevance concerning the actual storyline of these characters if you think about it. Was about to touch on those too not mentioned...

I agree, honestly I think comics sometimes or the writers rather be it with Superman renouncing his US Citizenship(which even DC realized was a flop and mistake) or push the whole "let's make this guy gay" I personally don't care for ones political perspective when I'm reading my comics, afterall comics are about escaping reality not but yet another interpretation of it through the writers personal "political" agenda or feelings.

The Alan Scott being Gay I'm really shocked Sara didn't touch on, the kiss too...but then they did kill his BF off fast lol. Perhaps DC will make him bi in order to have him have a daughter? Or just not at all and thus his daughter never exists in the new 52...

I definitely think between John and now Baz(as you said a muslim GL) they're worried far too much about "being politically correct" I mean since when did comics have to be politically correct? Much less "political" at all...outside of it's own universe I mean.

As far as Earth 2 the story, I just caught up literally today with the series. It's great I think but really could have done without the whole "owe let's make Alan Scott uber Gay to try to sell more copies" the story itself is good enough without that IMO especially with how they handled Jay Garrick and E2 Hawkgirl(Kendra) I think both of them are interesting characters, then you have the new Dr. Fate coming into play now...

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MrMiracle77

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Option 3:

Too many writers believe that their readers are sheltered, stupid, or just don't have access to any form of news outlet. They create and change characters, not to function as part of the plot or atmosphere of their comic, but out of their perception that the rest of us somehow aren't learning about Islam or homosexuality or transgenderism or pan-dimensional poly-bestiality (Raven/Beast Boy being the first and only example) from the thousands upon thousands of outlets already overexposing those subjects for the very same reason.

Gimmicks are just the salad, writers. Plot is the main course.

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soduh2

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@IronAngelX

What kind of Christian? Most of the overt Christians are Catholics (Nightcrawler, Daredevil, Batman). The majority of "closeted" Christians end up being liberal protestants (Fantastic Four excluding Ben are Episcopalian, Superman is Methodist, etc.)

An evangelical conservative Christian would be an interesting character. Marvel did a good job with Dust, a traditional Muslim woman. Can they treat a traditional Christian the same way?