Last week's battle between the movie versions of Thor and Faora was a struggle between two powerhouses which would basically leave the arena decimated. This week, however, focused on a fight between two highly skilled and precise characters: Elektra and Shredder. The Comic Vine community had 5 days to vote and a seriously impressive debate went down. Great cases were made for both sides, but in the end, Shredder took a firm edge in the poll, earning 53% of the votes.
Elektra gave an admirable showing, taking 37% of the 300+ votes. 10% believe this one is simply too close to call. This is usually where I give my take on the match, but given the length of the Viner Arguments of the Week, I'll try to be brief.
There's no denying both are very skilled, but each are holding key advantages. Shredder's the polar opposite of slow, but at the end of the day, Elektra does indeed have him beat when it comes to speed, reflex and agility feats. Saki's arrogance could also play an initial role and toying with Elektra -- even just at first -- could grant her the opportunity to land a critical and game-changing attack. The assassin has also displayed powers over the years, but truthfully, there's just no evidence to support the current/standard version of the character would use them regularly in this fight. She also has home field advantage here. If the fight isn't going her way, it's not far-fetched to believe she could leap into the shadows and then aim for a stealth attack. Given the fact she can sneak up on the likes of Daredevil, it's fair to say she's really, really damn good in this aspect. We've yet to see Shredder use stealth, but given the fact he's the leader of a ninja clan, it's unclear exactly how that tactic could play out if Elektra pursued it.
Meanwhile, there's no disputing Shredder's abilities as a combatant. Arrogant as he may be, he's still one of the deadliest -- if not the deadliest -- characters in his universe. While I believe Elektra's swifter, Shredder's been able to act accordingly to the Ninja Turtles' assaults, and they'e debatably low-level superhuman. On top of that, a case could be made that Shredder holds the skill edge due to his multiple lifetimes of experience and showings against the Turtles / other mutants.
Personally, I'd be inclined to give Shredder the slight nod. It would be a fantastic clash filled with counters and wonderful technique, but Shredder's formidable nature as a fighter and his lifetimes of experience should help make up for his blatant arrogance. That said, phenomenal cases were made for both sides, so let's go check 'em out.
Viner Argument of the Week for Shredder is by tparks
"Shredder wins here for one big reason: reincarnation.
IDW's TMNT has a pretty big focus on reincarnation. All of the turtles, Splinter, and Shredder have been reincarnated into the bodies we see them in each month. This was a brilliant idea from Kevin Eastman and the rest of his crew. Reincarnation explains why all of these characters are such expert martial artists even though their current bodies have only been around for a short amount of time.
For example, Raph was rescued by his brothers from Old Hob off of the streets. When they bring him home, he starts his ninja training and instantly is a master of his martial art form and even bests his brothers who have been practicing for 2 years.
The reason Raph was able to do this is because all of his past life's abilities and skills are ingrained in his new body. Reincarnation in the IDW universe has all of the past life's abilities and skills retained in the reincarnated body. This is why Mikey can read Japanese, why the turtle's have their favorite colors, why they have such a close bond with Splinter as a father figure, and why Shredder is such a beast.
Shredder is currently in his third life time. In all of his life times, he has been the top martial artist in IDW's universe. The only one who could possibly match him is Splinter. That's three lifetimes of experience compared to Elektra's one lifetime. She could never hope to have as much training or experience as Shredder has.
Shredder has the feats to back this up in all of his lifetimes too. For example, here he is as Takeshi Tatsuo in his first lifetime.
The first time we get to see Takeshi Tatsuo, he is ambushed by a multitude of legions of samurai warriors. Tatsuo, by himself, takes on the entire army and kills them all.
This feat is absolutely amazing. Elektra has nothing to show that she is capable of this. Shredder has the skills to kill an entire army completely on his own. Tatsuo then goes on to take control of the Foot Clan by force and turn them into a very powerful clan of ninjas. This is probably enough to show that Shredder will win this fight, but he does have 2 other lifetimes, so I might as well keep going.
In his second lifetime, he was born as Oroku Saki. Again, he claims control of the Foot Clan by slaughtering everyone in his path and proving that he is still the best martial artist in the IDW universe for a second time.
In one of the action scenes we see of Oroku Saki as an adult, he is ambushed by four Foot ninjas. He cuts the first two down with one swing, and then takes the next two out immediately after with ease. The strength needed to cut two people in completely through their torsos with one swing takes strength levels that I don't think Elektra can match, not too mention the skill needed to quickly dispatch highly trained ninjas.
In his most current incarnation, he has been resurrected by his grand daughter, Karai. He again has taken control of the Foot Clan and is the top martial artist in the IDW universe He now goes by the name of Shredder and has brought of all his skills and abilities from his former lives into his new body, that is arguably stronger and faster then his previous two bodies because of the mutagens of the ooze he bathed in for hundreds of years used to resurrect him. This has not been confirmed by IDW, but he seems to have abilities that extend beyond peak human on several occasions.
For example, Shredder is able to take on all four turtles at the same time and best them. The only time he lost to them was when he saw the leadership qualities in Leo that Karai was lacking. Shredder let the turtles escape so he could later capture Leo and turn him into his new Chunin as Dark Leo. The turtles all are with out a doubt superhuman. They have feats that put them in the 6-10 ton range and they are some of the best bullet/laser/arrow timers, dodgers, and deflectors in comics. A lot of versions of the Turtles have them only at peak human or maybe just above, but IDW has given them have some great physicals (and I couldn't be happier). There are a huge amount of feats I could name that show off the turtles strength and speed, but I don't want to clog this thread with turtles fan ranting, which I can do all day if given the opportunity. lol.
Anyways, Shredder is able to easily man-handle the turtles, who are able to take on characters like Slash. Slash is a giant mutant turtle tank. He can take a beating all day and not even be phased, but Mikey had the strength to put him down with one good swing of his nunchuck. Slash got back up moments later, but Slash was actually hurt. This feat shows how much strength the turtles are packing, yet Shredder easily takes on all four superhuman turtles at the same time.
It should be noted that the turtles do not always display their superhuman strength when striking opponents. They hold back so they do not kill. With Shredder, the turtles do not hold back. Splinter has made it clear that the turtles will only find peace when Shredder's life is brought to an end.
This means that Shredder is tanking shots from the turtles that hit with enough power to hurt characters like the beast that is Slash. Shredder is also able to return shots to the turtles that put some serious hurt on the turtles. The turtles have tanked shots from Slash and Krang in his armored suit that with a lot of force, so one can only imagine Shredder is hitting with more then what an average ninja can produce.
Shredder also has the strength to easily hold someone off the ground with only one hand around their throats. This his go-to-evil-villain-maneuver, he's kind of like Vader without the force. So far, he has done this to Leo, Raph, and Casey Jones. All of these he does with ease (it ends up a little worst for Casey then it does for the turtles).
I know Elektra has some good physicals, but I don't think she can match what Shredder is doing in IDW's series. I'm pretty sure Elektra is going to be KO'd or maybe even killed if she takes hits from characters like Slash or Krang, yet the turtles have absorbed this amount of force with little to no damage to show for it, yet they have been shown to take a beating from Shredder. So if Shredder connects with Elektra, it should be lights out for her pretty shortly after.
The argument I always see with the new TMNT series charters (Shredder included) is that they don't have enough feats or feats against elite level characters that Marvel and DC have to be considered serious martial artists. I can see where this is coming from if people haven't been following the entire series, but I could not disagree enough with this argument. The IDW TMNT has been around for a decent run now. They are currently 27 issues in their ongoing, but there is much more then just this. There are currently 8 microseries issues, 4 Secret History of the Foot Clan issues, 7 villains issues, 2 Infestation 2 crossover issues, and an Annual. That brings their issue count up to 49. That's a lot of comics and definitely enough to get a pretty good idea of these characters, and so far it's been nothing but top tier ninja combat.
On top of the abundance of issues there are now, there are also some very talented and powerful characters. Hun, Slash, Bebop, and Rocksteady are powerhouses that can rumble with anyone. Karai and Alopex both have some amazing ninja feats. Karai might be making a move on top tier archery feats at levels of Green Arrow and Hawkeye. Krang and Baxter Stockman are the two resident geniuses of the universe. Stockman creates superhuman mutants like it's going out of style and Krang has tech and armored suits that Tony Stark would take a second glance at. Then there are the turtles and Splinter who don't need anymore explanation. There is one thing that all of these very powerful and very skilled street level characters have in common: they all fear Shredder.
I kind of went on a rant, but that is because I know someone would make the same claims there always is with the new TMNT: not enough feats and not enough feats against high level characters. Anyone who has been closely following the series knows this isn't true anymore. A year ago I would have been saying the same thing, but a lot has happened for Shredder in the past year, and these claims do not hold water anymore.
Shredder has been the best martial artist in a universe filled with ninjas for three lifetimes. This does not bode well for Elektra who is a ninja.
All of Shredder's past lives give him way more experience and mastery of martial arts abilities then Elektra could never hope to match.
The current body of Shredder has showings that flirt with superhuman and is definitely above Elektra's physicals.
Shredder takes on superhuman characters with ease
Shredder has never lost a fight, the closest he's had to losing is stalemating with Splinter. The only loss he has ever had is with the turtles. He let the turtles escape because he decided during this fight that he wanted Leo as his Chunin, so that can not be described as a loss.
IDW's universe is no longer in it's infancy. It is going strong with characters that could take on characters from both Marvel and DC. The argument that Shredder can't win because he doesn't face the caliber of characters in Marvel or DC is no longer applicable."
Viner Argument of the Week for Elektra is by Lvenger
"Strength/Striking Power - Though these two are different attributes, I'm clumping them together to save on post space. Now Elektra has stabbed grown men with her sai and lifted them above her head along with punching through brick like it's nothing, thrown her sai through kevlar armour and broken bones with single hits. But of course Shredder has consistently manhandled the Turtles who are low level superhumans in stats, reacting to their hits and throttled them fairly easily. Plus, even though Splinter had just gone through a gauntlet, he is also a low level superhuman in stats and an equal if not superior in skill to Shredder. Yet Shredder has hurt him fairly easily and even beat a tired Splinter. For argument's sake, I'll give the edge to Shredder.
Durability - Not too much to say here. Elektra doesn't really wear armour since her style is all about dodging around but Shredder does wear armour and has tanked hits from the low level superhuman Turtles and Splinter. HOWEVER, Elektra has endured massive amounts of punishments from Super Skrulls, the same Super Skrulls that invaded during Secret Invasion with a plethora of powers. That is just one high end feat though and she has been hurt by less. I'll give this to Shredder too.
Speed - Again Shredder has dodged a bullet once and reacted to superhumans such as Splinter and Alopex along with making Karai look like an amateur when she was ordered to attack him. But Elektra really does trump Shredder in that area. She's run through mercernary camps without anyone seeing her, defeated a group of armed men and evacuated a ship before it exploded in 15 seconds, opened the gut of another man without him knowing what hit him and disarmed Punisher, who has some decent speed showings of his own before he realised his gun was gone. Honestly, Elektra takes this one by a mile.
Reactions - Elektra has cut bullets in half with her sai, reacted to superhumans like Wolverine and danced around them all along with many more speed/reaction feats. Again I feel Elektra takes the reaction advantage handily.
Skill - Here's the tricky one to consider. It is true that Shredder has consistently high end feats and any 'poor' showing is justified. The Turtles had to work together to take Shredder down and his arrogance came into play too. Plus Splinter is an equal to Shredder so it makes sense he can take Shredder down. Yet Shredder has held his own against all the Turtles and evenly fought Splinter which is even more impressive when you consider that Leo soloed an entire contingent of Foot Soldiers by himself in his micro series yet Shredder can take him down no sweat. But Elektra has strong feats of her own. She held her own against a mind controlled Wolverine, the guy with centuries worth of martial arts knowledge and has even been involved in his retraining experience when he lost his memory and become animal like. She defeated the Silver Samurai who, after a conversation with a certain expert on him isn't a 10 tonner in empirical evidence, has nonetheless given Logan difficult fights. Yet Elektra has also beaten him. She's held her own and taken some edges against Daredevil who has noteworthy pressure point and skill feats to make him a versatile fighter despite his limited disciplines. And she kills an entire group of gunmen before they can fire a shot. Plus, in terms of other skill feats, she uses pressure points and lethal strikes against a foe's weak spot. Elektra has even displayed an uncanny precision by cutting off an opponent's headband without her foe realising it. This takes way more precision and skill than slicing a head off. For these reasons, I have to give Elektra a slight edge in skill.
Stealth - This could come into play and though Shredder is a ninja, Elektra has way better feats than him here. She's killed entire camps of mercenaries without them realising what's going on and gotten the drop on Daredevil even with his radar sense enhancing his other senses. Again I feel Elektra has this advantage.
Standard gear - Not much to say here. Though Elektra can throw her sai and Shredder may carry throwing stars, this is going to primarily be a close quarters fight and both Shredder's claw thing (don't know the name of it) and Elektra's sai are more than a match for each other.
To conclude, this will be a very close fight. Shredder has a clear strength and durability edge and Elektra will have to be careful not to get hit too many times. But Elektra has his number in pure speed and reaction along with stealth and arguably exceeding his skill level by a small margin. With more advantages in Elektra's corner, this is why I still think she can edge out a majority in victories over Shredder."
Paul Allor, TMNT Writer
"Since I didn't read comics until my late twenties, "who-would-win-in-a-fight?" arguments have never been my forte. My usual stock answer is, "whoever the editor says should win." But this is an intriguing match-up. Initially, I think Shredder would underestimate Elektra, giving her a major advantage. But that wouldn't last long. Once he realized who he was up against, Shredder's brilliant tactical mind would give him the edge, even with their roughly equal fighting skills.
I'd also like to think that if the battle went on long enough, both Shredder and Elektra would realize that they're well-matched in other ways, and its much better to make love, not war. And once that happens, the rest of the criminal underworld had better watch out.
Projected winner: Shredder
Other projected winner: Romance!"
Viners, there will not be a new match next week. The good news, though? When the weekly segment returns it'll be an all-new Batman Battle of the Month. Brace yourself, the Dark Knight is coming! Who will he face-off against? Well, you'll just have to check the homepage on December 2nd to find out. In the meantime, you're more than welcome to drop character suggestions in this thread, via twitter, or in the comments below.
Previous 'Comic Vine Battle of the Week' results
- Daredevil vs. Nightwing (Winner: Daredevil)
- Ultimate Captain America vs. Deathstroke (Winner: Deathstroke)
- Arkillo vs. Hulk (Winner: Hulk)
- Snake Eyes vs. X-23 (Winner: X-23)
- Moon Knight vs. Red Hood (Winner: Moon Knight)
- Catman/Deadshot vs. Bullseye/Punisher (Winner: Bullseye/Punisher)
- Aquaman vs. Thing (Winner: Aquaman)
- Deadpool vs. TMNT (Winner: Too close to call)
- Movie Black Widow vs. TV Green Arrow (Winner: TV Green Arrow)
- Movie Batman vs. Movie Dredd (Winner: Movie Dredd)
- Predator vs. Boba Fett (Winner: Predator)
- Luke Cage/Iron Fist vs. Scarlet Spider/Venom (Winner: Scarlet Spider/Venom)
- Cardiac vs. Hobgoblin (Winner: Hobgoblin)
- Gambit vs. Nightcrawler (Winner: Nightcrawler)
- Sinestro vs. Wonder Woman (Winner: Wonder Woman)
- Zombie Apocalypse Scenario (Winner: Deathstroke)
- Superior Spider-Man/Hobgoblin vs. Wolverine/Omega Red (Winner: Wolverine/Omega Red)
- Marvel vs. DC Dodgeball Scenario (Winner: Marvel)
- Bloodshot vs. Daredevil (Winner: Bloodshot)
- Movie Faora vs. Movie Thor (Winner: Thor)
Want to suggest a Battle of the Week? Feel free to comment below or send it to Gregg via Twitter. It doesn't have to be Marvel or DC!