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Comic Vine Battle of the Week: Black Widow vs. Talon

Marvel's Natasha Romanova or DC's William Cobb? These two are about to square off and the winner will be determined by you. Yes, you. So, get in here and vote!

To celebrate Black Widow's new series (by Nathan Edmondson and Phil Noto), we thought it would be really fun to give the Avenger a real challenge. This week, she's facing off against Bane's latest ally in ARKHAM WAR: the Talon named William Cobb. Will the Marvel hero overcome or will the DC villain claim the victory? Well, it turns out that'll be up to you. Yeah, you. We know that's a lot of pressure, so don't feel rushed to vote if you're not sure how this fight would go down. The poll will be open until Friday morning (ET), so that should give you plenty of time to research both characters and then cast your vote/speak your mind in the debate.

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Comic Vine Battle of the Week Rules

  • Random encounter (aka no prep).
  • In character.
  • Standard gear.
  • Knockout, incapacitation or death all count as elimination. Making a tactical retreat counts as a loss, too.
  • They're fighting in a generic downtown city setting. It's unpopulated, at night and all standard city lights remain on. They start roughly 20 feet apart and visible. There's a lot of cover between them (a variety of idle vehicles, bus stops, dumpster bins, benches, etc.). The entire city region is on limits (rooftops, inside buildings, alleyways, sewers, etc.).
  • It's not mandatory, but if you take time to vote, elaborating as well would be extra awesome. Keep things informative and your post could be the next Viner Argument of the Week!

Click the following link to cast your vote. Again, it would be extra cool if you could get your elaboration on as well. If you vote for a side, be sure to tell us why. Oh, and do try to remember this is just a conversation about fictional characters fighting, so keep things informative and not personal.

CLICK HERE TO VOTE!!!

Viners, you have the week to research, debate and vote! This means there's no reason to vote right away if you don't have all of the info you need to make an educated decision. Check the homepage Friday for an updated article with the following:

  • Thoughts from the CV staff.
  • A Viner Argument in favor of the poll's winner (can't include scans and must be in the poll thread).
  • If we're lucky, blurbs from industry talent.

Feel free to make future match suggestions in the comments below or via Gregg's Twitter page.

99 Comments

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ChillinNKillin

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@lordofthenorth said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: he wasnt knocked out it clearly shows that the Talon gets away before bruce and even turn around

What? I flipped through the issue and only saw that Talon fell onto the car and was knocked out for an extended period of time. As far as I remember, Cobb only reappears at the end of issue #3.

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He also dispatched Alton Carver pretty swiftly by kicking him off the building, where he fell to the sewers and was downed for a bit before resurfacing. I'm not sure if you have scans of Cobb walking off his impact with the car, as I haven't read COURT OF THE OWLS/NIGHT OF THE OWLS in a year or so.

That's all well and fine, but there's no 50 story building here and BW's physical strength =/= Batman's strength.

No way she could knock him out.

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@chillinvillain: You're completely forgetting how Natasha could eventually deduce Talon's healing factor and simply shoot him in the head? Cobb has only dodged gunfire from fodder from what I've seen. There are plenty of ways that Black Widow can eliminate Talon. I'm neutral on the victor, but it's a bit ignorant to completely disregard the possibility that Widow can snatch a few wins here.

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The_Titan_Lord

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Talon.

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mak13131313

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Edited By mak13131313

And the winner is.... Talon! At least that's who I think would win.

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clubberlang

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Widow. Like some have stated before a .45 to the head is a KO. She is an expert marksmen, don't think that if talon even got to close the gap (I don't see that happening) she would move to a melee weapon. Um... Pistols work just fine up close. One round would drop him for at least a KO. Talon is not black tarantula. Once he falls, if he starts to getback up natasha is not your typical "hero" she's an assassin, she will not hesitate to unload a clip everywhere from the neck up. Talon isn't getting up from that.

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@lordofthenorth said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Becuase at the begaining of the arc Talon falls off a 50 story building and walks away but Batman can knock him out with his punches just becuase its the same writer dosnt mean their cant be inconsistances

Because it is the same writer, Snyder obviously had his reasons to why Talon would be able to get knocked out. I'm pretty sure Talon was still knocked out from falling from that great height.

Snyder needed Talon knocked out at that moment. If the plot calls for it, they'll make it happen. Writers aren't infallible and are fully capable of inconsistencies, even among their own characters.

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LordoftheNorth

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@clubberlang: you do know Talons are immortal right so only the bullet to the head would bother him and Talons have soak up bullets like they are nothing

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clubberlang

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@lordofthenorth: I'm pretty sure Jason Todd killed a talon with a bullet to the head. The situation was very different but a pistol dropped a talon all the same. KO is a win here, having a large part of talon's head blown off will result in the minimum of a KO.

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LordoftheNorth

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@clubberlang: well you cant kill Talons so he didnt. True headshots are KOs but that only if she can get a headshot this is Cobb the best of the best so he isnt going to be easy to hit to begain with not yet alone a head shot

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@scarletwitchfever: It's not like Cobb hasn't been knocked out before. Bullets will be able to do the job.

@lordofthenorth: What? Talons are killable. Jason killed one when the Talon himself wanted to die and begged Todd to shoot him in the head. Talons aren't like Deadpool or Wolverine.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: No Talons cant be killed Lobdell is just a moron becuase no other Talon dies they just get KO'ed thats why they have to freeze them

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: No Talons cant be killed Lobdell is just a moron becuase no other Talon dies they just get KO'ed thats why they have to freeze them

That doesn't make any sense. Lobdell may be a horrid writer, but I'm pretty sure he was in contact with Snyder when they had the crossover event in NIGHT OF THE OWLS. Plus Damian was able to kill a Talon by decapitating it, which implies that ceasing brain activity would permanently drop them. I don't see how a bullet to the brain wouldn't kill Cobb. There's plenty of on-panel evidence to suggest that Talons can be killed without utilizing extremely low temperatures. That is there weakness, but it isn't the only way to eliminate them.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek:

No their isnt if you look at the fight in the Brids of Prey they completely mess that guy up and the only why they can stop them is freeze him Batgirl even comes right out and says that Talons cant be killed

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth: Blunt force, whips, punches, and kicks do not equate to a bullet in the head my friend. I am aware of the fight between the Birds of Prey, and their numerous powers and abilities in no way replicated a bullet as far as I'm aware. Character statements are also not as powerful as on-panel evidence, and even then Batgirl only said he "can't be killed" because everything they threw at him, he bounced back.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: No Batgirl arrived late and what she says is "These things are Talons and they cant be killed ether"than she continues"but they can be stopped, Batman figured it out" here of course refering to freezing. Character statments and on panel evidance is all the same shit becuase both have to be written it all comes down to how the writer and artist show a scene and iam pretty sure a Canary Cry that can shatter skulls or being cut in half by a sword is going to work just as well as a freaking bullet.

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@lordofthenorth: They are not the same at all. Character statements have been proven wrong time and time again. Black Panther implied that Shang-Chi was the greatest martial artist in the Marvel Universe. Is that true? No. Talons have been killed before and that alone contradicts your notion that they are immortal. The Talons' healing factors aren't even as potent as Deadpool's, and he can be taken out by a bullet in the brain. Being cut in half would take a Talon out of the game since they can't heal from that (one Talon was stuck after being impaled, let alone halved). Canary Cry may shatter skulls, but that isn't as much brain damage as a bullet going through your skull and brain. Plus I'm pretty sure she was holding back. Not only that, but the Talon that Jason shot in the head semi-on-panel never returned, heavily implying that he was permanently downed.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Yet again its all how they show a scene if you read the Brids of Prey book the Talons appear to be immortal and i dont know shit about Shang Chi so for all i know he could be the best martial artist in Marvel. The only Talon you can make a case for being killed is the one Jason fought but yet again i account that form Lobdell being a hack and DC letting that moron do what ever he wants.

"Being cut in half would take a Talon out of the game since they can't heal from that" well Katana cut a talon in half in Birds so thats BS

"Canary Cry may shatter skulls, but that isn't as much brain damage as a bullet going through your skull and brain. Plus I'm pretty sure she was holding back"

now this is just silly if some one is using enough force to shatter your skull they clearly arnt holding back and you need to learn some biology if you think a shattered skull isnt as bad as a bullet

Yes yet again lobdell is a hack who DC lets do what ever he wants so that scene is complete WIS

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Yet again its all how they show a scene if you read the Brids of Prey book the Talons appear to be immortal and i dont know shit about Shang Chi so for all i know he could be the best martial artist in Marvel. The only Talon you can make a case for being killed is the one Jason fought but yet again i account that form Lobdell being a hack and DC letting that moron do what ever he wants.

Yes. They appear to be immortal because the Birds of Prey don't go all out since they don't know that they have a healing factor. And the Talons are by means immortal. They have been killed and knocked out plenty of times. Shang-Chi is nowhere near the top martial artist in the Marvel Universe. I could literally list more than ten fighters that are better than him off the top of my head. You're also completely wrong about Jason being the only one capable of killing a Talon via head and/or brain trauma.

From BATMAN & ROBIN #9.

  • Damian ties up a Talon, and seeing as he is still alive, decapitates him with a katana, killing him.
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From BATWING #9.

  • Batwing blows off both arms of a Talon, taking him out of the game.

From CATWOMAN #9.

  • Penguin uses his umbrella-gun to shoot a Talon right through his head, clearly killing him. As you can see from this, a bullet to the brain killing a Talon is consistent.

From NIGHTWING #8.

  • Nightwing stabs his escrima stick right into a Talon's eye socket, seemingly going into his brain, and kills him.
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From RED HOOD & THE OUTLAWS #9.

  • Jason Todd kills Xiao Loong by shooting him in the head with a pistol. It isn't explicitly on-panel but it is heavily implied by the red splash in the last panel.
No Caption Provided

Head and brain trauma is a consistent method of taking out a Talon, and it isn't just Lobdell that wrote it that way.

"Being cut in half would take a Talon out of the game since they can't heal from that" well Katana cut a talon in half in Birds so thats BS

Yeah..you just saw a Talon get taken out just by his arms getting blown off. You really expect me to believe that a sword cutting Talon in half isn't going to stop him? Even if he did regenerate, it took him an extended period of time that would have already counted as a loss. Bruce Wayne in nothing but his robes was also able to pin down a Talon simply by impaling him. The only thing that is "BS" here is if a Talon somehow easily healed from being cut in two.

"Canary Cry may shatter skulls, but that isn't as much brain damage as a bullet going through your skull and brain. Plus I'm pretty sure she was holding back"

now this is just silly if some one is using enough force to shatter your skull they clearly arnt holding back and you need to learn some biology if you think a shattered skull isnt as bad as a bullet

My point is that she may have not emitted a brain shattering Canary Cry if she didn't know he had a healing factor. Regardless, it is not the same as being shot in the head, which I have already proven above to be an effective method of dispatching Talons. Cobb is no exception just because he is a more notable and skilled Talon. Trying to translate tanking a Canary Cry to being able to tank a bullet to the brain is the only thing that "is just silly" here.

Yes yet again lobdell is a hack who DC lets do what ever he wants so that scene is complete WIS

So Peter J. Tomasi, Kyle Higgins, and Judd Winick are hacks too right? Yeah, no. Crying out PIS and WIS isn't going to cut it when three other writers have displayed similar circumstances leading to a Talon's death and/or defeat.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: No you think they killed them but yet again they where KOed or why else would they bother picking up the bodies the anwser is so that they can freeze them later or else the BS about Freeze Talons would be freaking point less

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Edited By VMole

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: No you think they killed them but yet again they where KOed or why else would they bother picking up the bodies the anwser is so that they can freeze them later or else the BS about Freeze Talons would be freaking point less

For the purpose of this debate, getting brained with a bullet and getting KO'd for an extended period of time counts as a win, so Black Widow definitely has a good chance of winning. There also needs to be context on why they were selected to be frozen since at the time they were probably unsure of the extent on whether or not they could regenerate from the damage since some dialogue seems to imply that the fullest extent of their abilities was not known, although from the panel with Jason and the Talon, a headshot would seems to suffice in killing them off for good.

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: No you think they killed them but yet again they where KOed or why else would they bother picking up the bodies the anwser is so that they can freeze them later or else the BS about Freeze Talons would be freaking point less

That's purely baseless speculation that they didn't die and you have absolutely no evidence to support that, whereas I do for my argument that they died. Also, they also freeze the Talons when they were still alive or at least dead without major brain trauma. Talons can't simply be frozen and completely healed when they're already dead with a bullet wound in their skull.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: no iam not you said "they also freeze the Talons when they were still alive or at least dead without major brain trauma" which you have Zero proof of

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: no iam not you said "they also freeze the Talons when they were still alive or at least dead without major brain trauma" which you have Zero proof of

That's not baseless speculation. It's reasonable as the Talons who have died have never returned. On the other hand, you have absolutely no evidence that suggests dead Talons can be revitalized by being frozen. I've also provided evidence for my claims while also referring to their respective titles and issue numbers.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Only one Talon as returned so far so your argument is baseless and yet again you are coming form the perpective that the Talons can die when they cant and your so called evidance can easily be infered that they where just KO'ed not killed becuase tell me this why would nightwing and batwing pick up those Talons bodies if they where dead and why if they can just kill the Talons would they bother freezing them

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Only one Talon as returned so far so your argument is baseless and yet again you are coming form the perpective that the Talons can die when they cant and your so called evidance can easily be infered that they where just KO'ed not killed becuase tell me this why would nightwing and batwing pick up those Talons bodies if they where dead and why if they can just kill the Talons would they bother freezing them

I'm not sure what Talon you are referring to that somehow returned, but the only Talon that I've seen come back was William Cobb (although I haven't been following recent events). And the fact that only one Talon has returned only strengthens my argument, because the reason only he has returned is because the other Talons were defeated and/or killed. And what do you mean "perspective that the Talons can die"? I just posted scans proving that Talons have died multiple times. It isn't really an implied death it there are multiple clues that the Talon is dead, they have never returned, and all died in a similar fashion regarding severe brain trauma. They pick up Talon bodies to research them, just how they researched Cobb to find out his healing factor (although Cobb was alive in that instance). Plenty of times Batman has researched deceased specimen. Batman and Nightwing don't instantly freeze any Talon they see because they don't have that kind of technology at their disposal, at least from what I've seen. Nightwing had to use the environment in order to defeat Talon because he didn't have any ice projectiles. I honestly don't see where you're going with this debate.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Yes Cobb is the only Talon to return and it dosnt strenghten your argument becuase yet again they can just as easiy be frozen.

Those scans prove nothing yet again be in

Batwing he ties up the Talon

Robin only cuts off his head

Nightwing stabs an Talon throught the eye

Catwoman gets shot throught the head

the problem is you just asume they are dead you never think for a moment that shit like this just takes a long freaking time to heal

"They pick up Talon bodies to research them" why would they need to do this Batman never gave the order to collect all the Talons this is pure speculation on your part

And my questions wasnt why dont they freeze the Talons but why do they bother to freeze the Talon in the first place if they can just kill them it dosnt make sense

And dont you think if Talons could die Batman would be kind of pissed off that some of his allies striaght up murdered some people

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@lordofthenorth said:

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Yes Cobb is the only Talon to return and it dosnt strenghten your argument becuase yet again they can just as easiy be frozen.

The Talons are obviously dead if they don't appear again. Why wouldn't writers re-use them like they did with Cobb? Even Alton Carver, who is alive, hasn't been used again. There is nothing, nothing to suggest that Talons can survive a bullet to the brain or decapitation if they're frozen.

Those scans prove nothing yet again be in

Batwing he ties up the Talon

Robin only cuts off his head

Nightwing stabs an Talon throught the eye

Catwoman gets shot throught the head

I love how you try and use specialized wording to diminish how important my scans were. Batwing tying up Talon? You honestly think that's why I posted that? That particular Talon was taken out of the game for an extended period of time just after his arms were blown off. I'm not an expert on Widow, but I'm sure she packs some type of explosives, and it nonetheless proves that a Talon shouldn't be able to tank being cut in half if blowing off their arms takes 'em out. Robin cutting off a Talon's head and killing it indicates that brain trauma and similar attacks are able to permanently down them. Nightwing stabbing a Talon in the eye is a similar notion, as the escrima stick most likely pierced the brain (as you can see on the page, it goes straight through the guys' head). Finally, where did you get the idea that Catwoman was shot in the head? That was the most clear feat that indicated a Talon could die by being shot in the head. It is on-panel as clear as day. The Talon gets shot in the head and dies. Simple as that. In fact, BATMAN: DARK KNIGHT #9 only strengthens my argument even more.

Just a heads up, I skipped a couple pages from the third and fourth scan, but for the most part Carver just gets his butt whooped by Batman. The first to third scans strengthens my argument that Talons cannot survive from decapitation and severe brain trauma just from being frozen. As you can see from the first scan, Alton is relatively fine compared to the injuries you claim Talons can recover from. Yet, after being frozen and preserved, he's unable to kill Lincoln March and states himself that he is weak. The final scan nearly confirms that Talons can die. Alton Carver states that "--death is but a wound!", meaning that the Talons' numbers are so plentiful that their deaths are meaningless. This means that Talons in fact can die. I also remember Alton saying he had "fear for the first time", implying he was afraid for his life. So yes, Talons can die as displayed from feats and heavily implied from Alton's own statements.

the problem is you just asume they are dead you never think for a moment that shit like this just takes a long freaking time to heal

Or the Talons are all dead. You assume that the Talons have the capability of healing from injuries like that. Nonetheless, you have proved me right with your own statement. If it takes them that long to heal, Black Widow has the ability to win this. Victory is attained by knockout, death, or incapacitation.

"They pick up Talon bodies to research them" why would they need to do this Batman gave on order to collect all the Talons this is pure speculation on your part

That's not speculation. IIRC Batman was studying Cobb and that was how he was able to deduce the Talons' healing factor and how Nightwing was originally destined to become one.

And my questions wasnt why dont they freeze the Talons but why do they bother to freeze the Talon in the first place if they can just kill them it dosnt make sense

I'm not sure if you're talking about why the Bat-Family or Court of Owls don't just freeze the Talons. I'll just answer for both. The Bat-Family members for the most part don't have convenient cyro-pellets and like weaponry on them, at least from what I've seen. The Court of Owls don't kill them because they preserve them intentionally to use them in future instances.

And dont you think if Talons could die Batman would be kind of pissed off that some of his allies striaght up murdered some people

Not everyone is Batman. Nightwing said himself "yeah...let's see you regenerate from that...", meaning that his intent was to kill the Talon. Grayson doesn't outright kill, but obviously the Talon posed a major threat, especially after decapitating another citizen, and Nightwing was forced into killing the Talon. And Talons aren't just regular "people". They're assassins hunting down civilians and political figures around Gotham. I'm pretty sure the Bat-Family can use some excessive force to save lives from ruthless killers with healing factors. Red Hood also doesn't have strict morals like Bruce.

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Yes Cobb is the only Talon to return and it dosnt strenghten your argument becuase yet again they can just as easiy be frozen.

Those scans prove nothing yet again be in

Batwing he ties up the Talon

Robin only cuts off his head

Nightwing stabs an Talon throught the eye

Catwoman gets shot throught the head

the problem is you just asume they are dead you never think for a moment that shit like this just takes a long freaking time to heal

"They pick up Talon bodies to research them" why would they need to do this Batman never gave the order to collect all the Talons this is pure speculation on your part

And my questions wasnt why dont they freeze the Talons but why do they bother to freeze the Talon in the first place if they can just kill them it dosnt make sense

And dont you think if Talons could die Batman would be kind of pissed off that some of his allies striaght up murdered some people

You forgot to mention the Talon that begged Jason to shoot him and finally end his life.

I don't understand what the back and forth is about, a shot to the head still counts as a win for Black Widow. I mean even if the Talon somehow doesn't die from the severe trauma to his brain, he won't be getting up in any amount of time to fight back.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: "The Talons are obviously dead if they don't appear again. Why wouldn't writers re-use them like they did with Cobb? Even Alton Carver, who is alive, hasn't been used again. There is nothing, nothing to suggest that Talons can survive a bullet to the brain or decapitation if they're frozen."

they dont reuse them becuase the are frozen under Black Gate have you read Arkham War

Thous scans prove nothing they are just putting a Talon if anything saying death is just a wound makes more sense that they cant then the BS you just made up and just becuase aton is araid dosnt mean jack if anything that just makes Batman even more inpressive that he can scra an immortal

and you are still assuming that they are dead and I never said the cant be KOed for long periods of time which would still count as a win for widow

Why would he need to researce them all it would be pointless

"I'm not sure if you're talking about why the Bat-Family or Court of Owls don't just freeze the Talons. I'll just answer for both. The Bat-Family members for the most part don't have convenient cyro-pellets and like weaponry on them, at least from what I've seen. The Court of Owls don't kill them because they preserve them intentionally to use them in future instances."

Ok this one is really starting to piss me off becuase you are not reading what i wrote what iam saying is why in the hell would anyone freeze the Talons if the could just kill them

"Not everyone is Batman. Nightwing said himself "yeah...let's see you regenerate from that...", meaning that his intent was to kill the Talon. Grayson doesn't outright kill, but obviously the Talon posed a major threat, especially after decapitating another citizen, and Nightwing was forced into killing the Talon. And Talons aren't just regular "people". They're assassins hunting down civilians and political figures around Gotham. I'm pretty sure the Bat-Family can use some excessive force to save lives from ruthless killers with healing factors. Red Hood also doesn't have strict morals like Bruce."

Batman would never stand for that are you insane

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LordoftheNorth

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@vmole: My argument is that Talons are immortal and he think they can be killed and beside for the one in Red Hood which i amount to WIS their is no proof that Talons can be killed beside for his own speculation i have agreed from the start that a head shot would still be a KO but it wouldnt mean a Talons death

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth:
*sigh*

You constantly brush off my points and respond with passive-aggression, and seem to be unable to post without using "BS" at least once. I'm done debating this further. This is obviously not going anywhere.

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LordoftheNorth

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth: Well the way you talk is in violation of the CV Rules, so you're lucky I'm not reporting you. You should refrain from using "sh*t" in the future as well.

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LordoftheNorth

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth: Grow up? I'm 15 years old and I'm acting more mature than you. I could easily say "use proper grammar" as a petty insult, but I won't. Stop trying to justify your actions by accusing me of being immature.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: Justify my actions? what are you talking about i was telling you to grow up becuase getting upset over something so small is childish it dosnt matter that your 15

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth: Oh yes. I am soooo visibly upset. I'm just fuming with anger. I could just punch a wall right now. If anything I've gotten some good laughs from this.

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LordoftheNorth

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth: Exactly when and where did I threaten to report you over saying "sh*t"? I said I could have reported you, but I didn't bother too. That's the exact opposite if you ask me.

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LordoftheNorth

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: the fact you brought it up in the first place is a threat you even went so far as to say i was lucky you didnt it which comes with the connotation that my fate was all based on your judgement so it certainly wasnt the opposite the opposite would have not to bring it up at all and ignore something so trivial

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YourNeighborhoodComicGeek

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@lordofthenorth: Brother I think you're thinking way too deep into this. Just let it go man. You were obviously being aggressive and I responded that you were violating CV rules, and I could have reported you. Simple as that.

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Wolverine008

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@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: the fact you brought it up in the first place is a threat you even went so far as to say i was lucky you didnt it which comes with the connotation that my fate was all based on your judgement so it certainly wasnt the opposite the opposite would have not to bring it up at all and ignore something so trivial

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

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LordoftheNorth

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