Comic Book Question of the Week: Does the Change in 'Avengers 2' Matter?

I haven't read an Avengers book where Ultron was in it, except for a couple of the more recent stories. AOU, which really sucked, and didn't exactly have all that much Ultron in it, and the Bendis written "Avengers" that JMM drew a few years ago. I had an older DD book with Ultron in it also. I know Ultrons history from reading about him, or watching him in some animated show or feature. For me it doesn't matter who built him. As long as he's cool. I'm not the biggest Hank Pym fan anyway. He's my least favorite of the smart characters in Marvel. Always seems to be riding someone else shadow.

@theheat:

i think alot of people care who read comics and have for decades ...it sucks when you go see a superhero movie and they change the history just to appease the masses ...I think pym could be in the movie ...even if he created the ultron A.I with stark that would be good enough. Its just a cheap cop out to exclude him altogether and it waters down the whole essence of who ultron is... but seriously marvel could make Santa clause and papa smurf the villains and make a billion on this. I found it odd that loki was leading an alien army and physically attacking new york so boldly ( not his style at all) ( he's usually the devil on your shoulder manipulator type , enhancing people and sending them to fight his battles like when Carl "Crusher" Creel was a boxer and jailed criminal who becomes the Absorbing Man when he drinks a liquid which loki laced with rare Asgardian ingredients and sent him after thor or how he manipulated and re-powered the hood in siege and dark reign) but hey nobody complained. so i guess excluding pym from ultron's origin is acceptable now ...its a small thing that can have huge repercussions on marvel lore going forward. It just sets a bad precedent

youre not the only one ....I dont even think joss wheden ever wrote an avengers book ...just x-men i believe ....i do think in the right role vin deisel could be great ...did you see him as riddick or in boiler room ? hes a better character actor than people think ...triple x and fast and furious were just bad stories with cardboard action heroes ,,,the fight scene at the end of fast and furious 6 was awesome and his fight with the rock in fast and furious 5 was great too

Yes it does matter. Ultron is such a large part of Hank Pym's character that making Tony Stark create him instead really destroys a lot of Hank. Regret is Hanks defining characteristic mostly over Ultron and hitting his wife, and if you take away half of that and you take away a lot of Hank, it is a little ridiculous.

What makes it even worse is that they are coming out with an Ant-Man movie right after it...

I honestly think it's great that they changed. People fail to realize the Marvel Cinematic Universe isn't tied to the 616 (main universe). LOL

Eh, I reserve judgement. I'll just wait for the film..or for more news to be released.

@sasquatch888: With the loki angle your ignoring the fact that he was Thanos pawn, and doing as he was ordered.

People have already forgotten how good Avengers was, I have faith in Whedon, since he announced it wasn't about the simply terrible Age of Ultron story arc, and the fact that Ant Man doesn't appear makes me thankful. As cool as Hank Pym is (and his Yellowjacket persona) Ant-man would suck on the big screen.

This has fail all over it.

@gritterr:

yeah ok...do you read comics at all? since when does loki play pawn or ever do as ordered? , and since when does thanos send someone like loki into battle leading his army...a back stabbing god of lies and mischief who has been except for a few times despite his physical abilities a non combatant. ..it was exiting in the movie but a little out of character. loki would have betrayed thanos for his own scheme ...anyone who thinks different really doesn't understand the nature of loki .

Well I will have to pat myself on the back because I predicted, Ultron would be the next biggie, and the set up of Thanos was for the third. If you are a fan of Joss, you know he likes to build expectation of a foe...so it made sense to me that Thanos wouldn't be the next one. Now on the Hank thing, like many others, I wish he'd stick to him being the creator and think that they could introduce him without the Pym particles, and without much digging into Hank's history. I realize that Marvel's cinematic universe is different than 616, but I have also noticed that they try to blend the two. So I'm a little confused at using the same name as the mini-series as well. While I didn't hate it like others did, I do think it could have been handled a lot differently. Joss does like to play with "alternative" dimensions however, so perhaps we will see a world in which Ultron takes control. I believe he also stated that he wasn't done with the script, so there is a chance that he's keeping an eye on the responses of not including Hank, and will make accomodations with the script based on it. On a side note, I've also said, from the moment that Avengers merged with the X-Men, that there was a bigger plan in place, allowing Marvel to get ahold of X characters away from Fox's rights - it would all depend on the language used in the contracts of those rights.

@maccyd: That was just a plain odd choice on behalf of the writer. I do remember him doing that once in a certain arc when Deadpool really got him angry but what I want is for him the given a limit that the other Avengers plus Nick Fury think that he has in terms of power only to prove them wrong by going beyond it. lol

Do you think the general audience will care? NOPE! I'm an avid comic book reader, and I don't care. I know many other comic book readers who agree with me. Not a single CBM has been 100% faithful to the comics, and you expect the MCU to start now with Ultron and Ant-Man?

man, you'd almost think people gave a crap about Hank Pym.

I have mixed feelings about this but you know what, I'm going to give it a chance. To comic book fans, it sucks not to include Hank Pym in Ultron's Origins, to movie fans they could probably careless unless they're also comic book fans. Anytime a character is adapted into a movie or an animated show or live action show, the people making it are going to make some changes to a character they could be something small like a characters age or something big like not including a certain character in a characters origins or completely changing a character like The Mandarin. But you know what, this might be an interesting take on Ultron. So let's see what Joss Whedon does with Ultron.

It bothers me yes, Hank's greatest accomplishment is also his biggest failure. Giving that to Tony in the MCU makes sense but it just completely wastes a relationship on the psychological level. It works much better with Hank in my opinion. Nevertheless ill watch the movie but be very sad if they give tony, hanks achievement.

honestly i want J.A.R.V.I.S. to be Vision . his A.I. inhabiting one of Tony's armored suits would be a pretty cool idea, i don't want him to be ultron

I'm hoping that they won't reveal where Ultron came from until the end of Avengers 2, then find out some scientist called Hank Pym programed him. Then in Ant-Man Hank Pym doesn't even remember creating Ultron because Ultron wiped Hank's memory. That I will accept.

Hank Pym & Wanda> Scarlet & QuickSilver.

I don't get it. Why does directors and other people in Hollywood always change sh*t for the big screen for no reason and upset the original comic or book fans? I can understand changing things that would not work on the big screen or it was done badly in the book, but Hank Pym/Ultron was perfect! Why complicate it and change stuff up? If Ultron is in the Avengers, what the hell are they gonna do for the Antman movie?!?!? Don't fix it if it ain't broke!

I think Whedon's going to make another masterpiece. I trust him. JOSS IS BOSS!

@trevel8182 said:

It's called the Avengers not Iron Man and his Amazing friends and if you take Ultron away from Hank in the Marvel Ciniamtic Universe you take Ultron away from Hank Pym in all medium's I wouldn't be surprised if in Avengers Assemble season 2 Tony Stark created Ultron or Marvel's 2016 comic book event being about Tony Stark creating his own Ultron. Ultron is Hank Pym's biggest contribution to Marvel universe the one constant in his character Marvel's taken his wife Taken Pym Particles and they've taken Ant-Man from him taking Ultron away is taking one of his biggest of pillars in his character but sure I can't wait the see Joss Whedon's Batman movie where Bruce Wayne's parent's don't die or his Captain America movie where he get's his power's from a radioactive Eagle.

Please reconsider Joss Please!!!!!

Completely agree! This is how I feel. Read my last post, and Joss should be familiar with this type of crap and how upset fans get when they change stuff since he himself writes and loves comics.

Have they done a most underrated MCU movie yet?

Yea its going to suck. They are going to butcher it just like they butchered Iron Man 3.

On the one hand, I love Ultron, so that's great.

On the other hand, it really pisses me off. Because it makes me think they did the entire Age of Ultron comic series just as hype for the movie. Now it almost makes sense why it sucked so much. Because they put no thought into it other than "get people to remember who Ultron is so they watch the movie." Except of course Ultron was hardly even in the series.

I don't care about Hank Pym. Although it is a bit ironic, because the entire point of the Age of Ultron series was that Hank Pym was so important that if he didn't exist, then the world would go to hell in a handbasket. But in the movies, he seems a wee bit less important, apparently.

If Joss doesn't put Hank Pym in the movie he is a fucking idiot! This is going to be Iron Man 3 all over again, a big disappointment to true comic book fans!

Does this mean Pym is not going to be in the sequel? HOORAY!!

I don't think it's entirely up to him which characters he gets to use for this. I'm sure he's probably trying to do the best he can with what he can use.

Also, Pym not being involved in the movie doesn't necessarily mean that someone else invents Ultron. It could just mean that we aren't shown who invents him.

Does this change bug me?

I don't know. I'd love to make a movie about a fallen Angel named Lucifer betraying his father Buddha. I'd also love to make a movie about Count Dracula giving life to Frankenstein. Or would it be called Dracula for Dracula's Monster then?

...No, it doesn't bug me one bit. -_-

Why don't they just introduce Pym in The Avengers: Age of Ultron and have his debut solo movie simply be that?

It doesn't HAVE to be the first time we see Hank Pym. It could be him dealing with the events of T.A: A.U. that gives everyone an impetus to go see Ant-Man who might've never heard of him, because EVERYONE will see The Avengers: A.U. Thus everyone would meet Pym.

I don't get why they won't do that.

I'm probably biased in that I really dont care about Hank Pym much as a character but this doesnt bother me in the slightest.

More than that its absolutely the best choice for the movie which is something i think some people here cant see/wont acknowledge.

Firstly the Avengers cast just cant/shouldn't get much bigger. Nobody wants a film where every Avenger gets 5 lines each or every scene has 50 guys standing around in a room arguing like some bad Starlin event. People care about the Avengers that have been introduced and want to see what happens to them next.

Secondly Ultron is a much more meaningful opponent if he is the creation of one of the Avengers such as, god forbid, Tony Stark. For the same reasons as he means a lot to Hank Pym in the comics. Some offhand line such as "Ultron was created by this guy at MIT called Hank Pym. He wants to kill everyone. Lets get him!" doesnt really establish much in the way of emotional stakes. Even if Pym was introduced in Avengers 2 nobody is going to find it half as tragic if he creates something like Utron as they will if Stark does.

Thirdly it just dovetails so nicely with Stark's journey through in the MCU. The next logical progression from the remote drones of IM3 would be a truly intelligent armour. When that goes wrong - it gives Stark a reason to get back in the suit. Which was something that he had pretty much moved away from at the end of IM3 anyway.

So yeah, Whedon/Feige made the right call IMO. Thats gotta be rough though if you are a Pym fan and were looking forward to him bursting onto the big screen.

Long as it just has to do with Ultron and not the AoU event there was recently, I'll be just fine by whatever happens.

This.

eh,screw hank pym anyway. he's boring. matter of fact so is ultron. but ultron creates the vision who is bad ass incarnate.

@cadencev2: They have a huge role for Thanos in stage 3 of marvel movies, He will be the main bad guy for Avengers 3... lol

Not really because I know next to nothing about Avengers history and probably wont be reading an Avengers comic anytime soon, and I think that is what the filmmakers are banking on with the majority audience. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

This idea made me once again pull out my archives to get a visual feel as to how a few scenes might play out. Utilizing Ultron, like I thought he might, then the following pages might translate nicely to the big screen. Just insert Fury as the agent addressing the team, as well as replace firestar & justice, with black widow & hawkeye.

I would personally love to see Black Panther in it, since he would want to help because the vibranium used for the creation of ultron came from his homeland of Wakanda. oh well.

The later movie scenes could look like the following, just replace wonder man with quicksilver, and reaper and wasp with movie avengers.

There is enough source material out there. He just has to find a way to effectively translate it to the big screen.

Feel the exact same way. But I really wish they had stayed a little closer to the source material.

Can someone clarify why everyone thinks Stark is the creator of Ultron for the movies? Is that just the logical assumption based on what we know, or was it implicitly stated somewhere and I just missed it?

I think we're overlooking... Captain America and Hyrda tech, the genius of Bruce Banner, whatever we are introduced to in GoG (Spaceknight, maybe?), and whatever involvement Thanos may have.

I agree that its a little weird having an Ultron that isn't built by Pym... but there's plenty of other possibilities other than 'sentient Stark armor'.

Also... I'm not much a Marvel comics fan these days. The regulars I read are Deadpool and Daredevil. I tried reading Fear Itself and hated it. I never got past issue 2 of Civil War because I felt it was derivative. But I went back and picked up Age Of Ultron after the A2 annoucement and REALLY liked it. So does that say something that non-Marvel fan liked it? And why do the 'real' Marvel fans hate it? (Though, the plot-hole of how young Nick Fury's car was always available to Wolverine and Sue Storm in every time line bugged me quite a bit...)

well im glad they care a little. If it was up to people like you and no one cared all these movies would move so far from the source material these movies would be unrecognizable. I can see here that its about 50-50 either way. People are smart about what goes on in the movies now ...I hate when its assumed the audience cant follow a complicated plot, but if you need a see dummied down watered down plot written to appease audiences so be it . I don't ...end of story its a compromise which isnt necessary or good and i think more people would be interested in the ant-man movie if it was tied into ultron . in avengers 2 ...even if hank pym was just a civilian scientist in the movie ...to take him out of the equation completely is a bad compromise to me and judging by what im reading here im not alone.

How dare Whedon do this? How do you give a character's history to someone else? I don't care if this movie universe is different from the comic universe. Ultron is a part of Pym's character:

@artisticneedham said:

I'd be upset if Hank Pym didn't create Ultron. Its a driving for for his character and for Ultron's. Ultron is sort of Hank Pym's dark side, dark secrets made flesh (metal). He is Pym's hate, fear, loathing, resentments, angry, and all that stuff. Ultron was created using Pym's brain patterns so its sort of all Pym's fault that Ultron hates and wants to wipe out humanity. Its Pym's constant failure, reminder, of his dark self.

And Ultron is also like his son, its also a generational thing. Pym created Ultron and passed down to him all his hatreds, fears, intolerance, etc. Then Ultron creates the Vision who Ultron tries to pass all his bigotry and hatred down to, but this is the "grandfather's" chance to redeem himself and the grandfather (who has changed his ways) saves the grandson (Vision) from the same hatred. So Pym is like the father of Ultron and the grandfather of the Vision.

I'd be sad and a little disappointed if Pym wasn't somehow the main creator of Ultron in Avengers 2. Even if they have to do a round about way of explaining it. Like He is this scientist who used to work with Stark, Banner, and SHIELD, in the past. But has since fallen from grace with all of them. Now Pym sees his former friends and colleagues being celebrated as heroes and loved by all and a small part of him hates that. He finishes his AI he and Stark started years ago (with Jarvis) and uses his own brain patterns to create Ultron. Then Ultron becomes the psycho robot from the comics we know and the unknown scientist has to help the Avengers stop his creation. After he helps them stop Ultron, with the aid of Ultron's creation, the Vision, Pym and Janet join the Avengers and work for SHIELD as special agents. Pym's way to make up for his mistakes, crimes, and all the death and destruction Ultron caused. So he could become Ant Man after the fact, after Ultron and after teaming up with the Avengers to stop Ultron. I'd even be fine with, in the movie, if he had as much action scenes as that normal human scientist from Avengers 1 (the guy who knew Thor).

Having Jarvis be the original Ultron AI prototype helps involve Stark in a big way. So it would give Stark a bigger role to go with his bigger paycheck. But with the idea that (along with the original cast of Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Hulk, and Fury, and possibly Falcon) we are also going to include Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, and Ultron for that matter, and possibly Vision, makes me wonder how much more could they include. Could they include Hank Pym and Janet? Would they have the screen time to make sure they are involved, even if they are normal humans not involved in action scenes?

Pretty much that.

-

With all these new introductions don't you think that Whedon can put in the Pyms? He can, he just doesn't want to because he hates Hank & Jan for some strange reason... or he's just screwing with us. But somehow I doubt it because before the first movie came out he confirmed no Pym then it happened. It's pointless to hope to just end up disappointed.

"In Joss we trust" ? F#&% NO.

I still trust Joss Whedon and Edgar Wright. They are both smart directors/writers and Whedon knows his core fan base for the Avengers films. I cannot see him not caring about them at all. So I think in some way it will work with what the origin in the comic is, but I am just worried how. Ultron is, to me, a Pym story/character with the Avengers co-starring.

I recall him specifically saying he wanted to leave Pym out. But I hope you're right...

I don't know if it's the best way to go, but I get it; for a two hour action movie, you don't need every other character to be a super scientist, sure.

But it could just be like how they're having Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch without being able to reference Magneto, like they'll be there, but they'll try to keep their background vague or something.

Well, better keep Pietro and Wanda's origins vague than change it to something stupid. I just hope that even if Whedon can't let them say "mutants", he'll do what Bryan Singer never did: actually show some of mankind's prejudice against them instead of just having everyone stand around and talk about it.

I personally don't mind since I haven't been reading that many Avengers comic books and the Marvel Cinematic Universe is going to be different from the comic books regardless. I just hope that we get a good story and I'm pretty sure that Joss Whedon will manage a good story for this movie. But, I guess we have to wait and see what happens first.

exactly. some mystery could make for a better story than trying to rewrite the greats.

Thanks for getting my hopes up.

@amazingwebhead: haha! sorry?