new 52 superman and WW compared to new 52 aquaman.

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#101 Edited by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio
#102 Edited by Outside_85 (8723 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicfan11:
Which is what is known as travel-speed on battle forums and is usually disregarded when talking about what speeds he moves at when in a fight. Whatever it is or isn't, it is an indicator of how much power he has in his legs to make this bursts.

That it takes place in a real-world city doesnt make it quantifiable, no one in the book went 'WOW' or measured it.

Also lol if you believe that Aquaman charging WW at superspeed is "normal speed". The art make's it perfectly clear that it's superspeed. We don't know how fast per se, but you are lowballing if you think that that's "normal speed". By your logic WW when she drops her bracers and charges First Born is also moving at normal speed, since there's no text to calculate her speed. Or every time Superman flies it's also normal speed, since most of the times there's no direct refference to his speed.

I am not lowballing Aquaman, I am commenting on how there is nothing in the art that suggest he or she is moving at superspeeds before the third panel. Unlike WW's fight against the First Born when she uncuffed, where the trail of blue she left behind. Had there been speed lines on the first or second panel then yeah they would have been moving at speed, but there isn't.

Yet Lex rarely starts a fight by pulling the Kryptonite out, neither does Lex's suit radiate kryptonite, he usually (foolishly) tries to beat Superman into submission first. In his fight against TT and the Outsiders, the Kryptonite was only revealed because Superboy ripped off the plating hiding it.

Wonder Woman got hurt by Atlantean weapons, but she was never bullet proof so I don't see the problem there.

And how often has Wonder Woman gotten shot? It's very very few times because her signature move is to deflect projectiles.

Yet in the old continuety, both WW and Superman could avoid getting KO'ed by magical lightning and electricity.

And all it did was to show that Aquaman hits very hard.

He is DC's idea of the optimum man physically, then you add all his MA skills, by those counts he should be untouchable to mere street thugs and their bosses, then you add his arsenal of gadgets and inventions he always carries around, but he isn't.

If Batman is superhuman or not is an irrellevant observation, fact is that he is most capable unargumented human being in all of comics, he takes on foes far (far) out of his weight class and beats them easilly, then he gets home to Gotham and takes a pipe to the head from some nameless goon despite just having beaten stronger, more durable and far faster opponents.

Again, because there is no indication of this speed you see before panel 3. And no, I am not going out of my way to discredit Aquaman, it's you thats going out of your way to justify your own oppinion of what Aquaman is capable of.

#103 Edited by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Wonder Woman got hit by lasers because she was occupied with grappling Ocean Master. Hard to deflect anything if both your hands are occupied. And she got got unaware (not that it changes anything since she would still be holding Orm).

Superman and Wonder got hit by magic lightning. No shame in that. Superman has been hit by the exact same attack when he first met Poseidon pre DCNU and got KOed.

Also for all of Batman's skills and gadgets he is still a human. Don't try to compare him to Aquaman or any other metahuman. No matter how fast he is Batman has his limits and can be overwhelmed or struck.

The distance between Boston harbor and downtown is perfectly quantifiable. It's the same thing as seeing Flash in one panel in Keystone city and the next in Metropolis if you know the distance. Also what does people going WOW have to do with how fast Aquaman leaps. People don't go WOW when they see Superman flying.

And no the art in ToA depicts a blur that shows AQ's charge leading to the demolished port. It's the same art used in the next issue where he does the same thing to Ocean Master. When Aquaman charges he becomes a blur compared to normal people. So yeah his charges are at superhuman speed.

Unless you consider the above examples also "normal speed", despite the fact that they are going so fast as to blow a hole through a bus.

#104 Edited by Outside_85 (8723 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

Superman and Wonder got hit by magic lightning. No shame in that. Superman has been hit by the exact same attack when he first met Poseidon pre DCNU and got KOed.

Also for all of Batman's skills and gadgets he is still a human. Don't try to compare him to Aquaman or any other metahuman. No matter how fast he is Batman has his limits and can be overwhelmed or struck.

The distance between Boston harbor and downtown is perfectly quantifiable. It's the same thing as seeing Flash in one panel in Keystone city and the next in Metropolis if you know the distance. Also what does people going WOW have to do with how fast Aquaman leaps. People don't go WOW when they see Superman flying.

And no the art in ToA depicts a blur that shows AQ's charge leading to the demolished port. It's the same art used in the next issue where he does the same thing in Ocean Master. When Aquaman charges he becomes a blur compared to normal people. So yeah his charges are at superhuman speed.

Unless you consider thee above examples also "normal speed", despite the fact that they are going so fast as to blow a hole through a bus.

Superman has also been hit by Captain Marvel's trigger lightning and not been knocked out.

And most metahumans can't deal with even 'just human' bad guys without taking a hit either, which has been the point of me bringing Batman into this. He is superbly skilled, yet still takes hits from lesser foes the same is the case here.

No, because in most cases Flash moves so fast people cant see him and Superman is heralded by: "Look, up in the sky!" And you have no idea how far Metropolis is from Keystone (two fictional cities that move around), or if Boston even has the same outline as you see on a real map. And still, it only proves Aquaman has a large amount of burst power in his legs.

Where is this blur you see?

#105 Edited by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: You are only speculating man.

Just because Superman survived Captain Marvel's lightning doesn't mean he is immune to magic. The times that magic has hurt Superman are countless. Magic is one of his weaknesses. Even in the NuDCU that's been established. You can't pick the one time he survived magic and make it the norm. That's not how it works. The times that magic has hurt Superman far outweigh the times he might have been able to resist some of it.

Also no, no street leveler has a perfect record. They get hit constantly no matter how well trained. Humans have their limits. Robin can get tagged, Nightwing can get tagged, every street leveler gets tagged if faced with enough opponents.

We know how far Boston Port from Boston Downtown. That's all that's needed to count the distance. Also in the DCU the distance between Kystone and Metropolis can be counted based on their latest depiction until retconned by the next one. That's the point. And there's nothing to indicate that Boston in the comic is different. The "real" cities in the DCU are based on their normal counterparts. I don't even understand how that' strange.

Furthermore even in some of the images from his first issue we see how much distance he travels instantly and it's made clear that's several city blocks as shown in the artwork. Which further proves how fast his leaping is.

The time it takes the officers to even talk about Aquaman he has already leapt several city blocks. There's no doubt that his speed is superhuman. If you can't admit to that then sorry dude but you are clearly biased.

And the blur is in all the images. The trail of lines that follow Aquaman every time he charges. And the distance he covers which is far beyond human.

So do you consider these scans and the one with Wonder Woman normal speed? Could a non metahuman launch someone fast enough to blow a hole straight through a bus?

#106 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@justthatkid:she is as well known and iconic as batman and superman,but she does not get the same promotion and push as them,not even close.

She does get more promotion then the the other founders though, doesn't she.?

no,aquaman and GL are getting more promo,she hasn't reached all her potential,and comic companies still have a lot to do with females,they don't do with them as much as they could,and it's time to do it.

#107 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@baberaham_lincoln:

There's only one reason and most people won't admit it.

It's Aquaman.

If this was any other character getting this push, there wouldn't even be a discussion.

People are misguided and sometimes bothered because they are fans of character "A" and don't want Aquaman to be on that level, despite the fact that he actually is.

In other words they want to dictate how powerful a character they don't even like or care is.

And that's borderline hypocrisy.

why should aquaman be capable of fighting WW on land and tag her while WW gets depowered a lot?.

#108 Posted by Justthatkid (3517 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: He has constantly stated that Aquaman being somewhere in a physical range to WW on land does not depower her but shows he has strength. It's a feat to show Aquaman's strength for people who say hes only a match under water.

And what promo has Aquaman gotten that has been considered more then Wonder Woman. They were feautured in Flashpoint, I could see Geoff Johns being a excuse for saying the character is given a push which should end soon, but other then that she has way more then that.

In my opinion the founding members of the league should all be given pushes rather then the minority.

#109 Edited by Outside_85 (8723 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: You are only speculating man.

Just because Superman survived Captain Marvel's lightning doesn't mean he is immune to magic. The times that magic has hurt Superman are countless. Magic is one of his weaknesses. Even in the NuDCU that's been established. You can't pick the one time he survived magic and make it the norm. That's not how it works. The times that magic has hurt Superman far outweigh the times he might have been able to resist some of it.

Also no, no street leveler has a perfect record. They get hit constantly no matter how well trained. Humans have their limits. Robin can get tagged, Nightwing can get tagged, every street leveler gets tagged if faced with enough opponents.

We know how far Boston Port from Boston Downtown. That's all that's needed to count the distance. Also in the DCU the distance between Kystone and Metropolis can be counted based on their latest depiction until retconned by the next one. That's the point. And there's nothing to indicate that Boston in the comic is different. The "real" cities in the DCU are based on their normal counterparts. I don't even understand how that' strange.

Furthermore even in some of the images from his first issue we see how much distance he travels instantly and it's made clear that's several city blocks as shown in the artwork. Which further proves how fast his leaping is.

The time it takes the officers to even talk about Aquaman he has already leapt several city blocks. There's no doubt that his speed is superhuman. If you can't admit to that then sorry dude but you are clearly biased.

And the blur is in all the images. The trail of lines that follow Aquaman every time he charges. And the distance he covers which is far beyond human.

So do you consider these scans and the one with Wonder Woman normal speed? Could a non metahuman launch someone fast enough to blow a hole straight through a bus?

I am not speculating.

Nor am I or have ever said Superman is immune to magic lightning, I am arguing it's crap to think this seemingly random ability from this Trident is more powerful than the blast Marvel generates considering how freaking huge it normally is.

Superman gets tagged on a constant basis, so does Wonder Woman and every other superpowered individual in comics.

Ah, so you are assuming that just because the city is called Boston, it is therefore identical to the real world city of Boston?

As for your scan, yes, it still shows he has quite a lot of power in his legs, nothing more. Here is another guy who travels in the same fashion.

There isn't any blur.

As I have said, there is no evidence of them moving at superspeeds before the 3rd panel.

#110 Edited by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85:

So you agree he is moving at superspeed in the 3rd panel.

Good we are on the same page.

Also what does Hulk to do with Aquaman? Furthermore this is not even canon to the regular Hulk. You'r desperately reaching man.

Also yeah considering the lightning blast, please if you have any proof that Captain Marvel's lightning should be for some reason more powerful than ancient Atlantean magic post it. Because if you don't, then there's nothing wrong with Superman getting KOed by it. Ocean Master's trident is that powerful.

Also no matter whether Boston is as big as in the real world (which should be since there's no indication to the contrary and you are welcome to post it if you have any, which I doubt) in the scan I posted in a couple of seconds he has already covered a distance of entire city blocks. That's perfectly clear from the artwork and I don't believe even you can deny that.

You try to grasp on details to invalidate the feats but you are running out of excuses dude.

What's next the distance he leaps in the scan I posted is an illusion?

And my point is because he leaps extremely fast he can charge and tag WW in battle exactly because his leaping speed is extremely fast.

Even more what's the point of debating this.

It's on panel, in continuity, shown multiple times, it's quantifiable and of course it makes your opinion and mine inconsequential.When DC shows Aquaman failing to tag WW in a similar situation, come back at me.

Until then it's your theories against the overwhelming in continuity evidence.

It's not even a contest.

Don't get surprised if DC again shows them as near equals (as also shown in Flashpoint, JL Animated, Injustice and of course Throne of Atlantis among others).

Cheers.

#111 Edited by Justthatkid (3517 posts) - - Show Bio

@comicfan11: I'm guessing he's comparing the super leaping

#112 Posted by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@justthatkid: Even so he's comparing two totally different characters. Hawkman and Superman both fly, doesn't mean they do it in the same way or speed.

And unlike the Hulk (most of the times) , AQ is actively using his leaping to charge people and not only for travel.

And his leaping speed as shown is well into "hypersonic", which makes him one of the fastest DCnU Earth characters so far (without considering light speed travel in space etc or teleportation.)

#113 Posted by The_Judge_since_83 (46 posts) - - Show Bio

To answer the question of the forum I think it depends. If Superman dedicates himself to just fighting defensively and actively avoiding every attack an opponent throws at him forgoing any attempt to strike back I don't think anyone (and I mean anyone) can hit him. I feel the same about Wonder Woman, their speed and skill are phenomenal. That being said, if they were to actually fight Aquaman yes, I do think he's fast enough to get in some licks, and strong enough to make them hurt, in his very first issue way back in More Fun Comics #73 (I sure hope I quoted that issue correctly) he was able to punch a hole into a submarine. So while his powers have ebbed and flowed throughout the years (and whose haven't) Aquaman now a days definitely (based on what I've seen over the years) possesses enough speed, strength, and durability to at least put up a fight with Superman or Wonder Woman. Now Wonder Woman I think he could actually beat, but Superman wins, it's just what he does, it might not happen right away but one way or another the man of steel always comes out on top, and I think that's how it should be. I posted an image from back in the day to show an example of how his being super quick isn't a new thing. Anyways I've gone on for awhile and I hope my contribution helps to show that comicfan11 isn't just pole riding (can I get away with that term?), or trying to play up to a superhero he likes. I haven't read as many posts by the other poster you mentioned so I don't know how well informed he is on all of this but I can say that comicfan11 does know his Aquaman and does him pretty good representation without overestimating his capabilities.

#114 Posted by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_judge_since_83: Thx dude.

Anyway I didn't even bring pre new 52 feats since the discussion was about the New 52 versions.

Which is consistent with Aquaman showin super speed pre Flashpoint.

And yeah it's More Fun Comics 73, the very first Aquaman appearance.

#115 Posted by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

That scan you guys keep throwing around, from Justice League, not once does Aquaman tag Wonder Woman lol

He rushes her. There's a huge splash and then we see AM and WW on the ground. He has his hand around her neck and she has her Lasso around his. She punches him through a boat on the very next page! How the hell is that proof he can tag her when he never tagged her?!?! And Batman was right next to her when AM rushed. Surprised he's not dead.

And the Supergirl fight, a few issues before, Supergirl was easily avoiding Flashes attacks. Wonder Woman was easily avoiding Supergirl's. Aquaman has done nothing to put him on that level. As outside mentioned, every has hit Superman. He's DC's punching bag.

#116 Edited by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: So he doesn't make contact when he rushes her? LOL what?

How does he do that? Didn't know Aquaman was telekinetic.

Because after he blitzes WW, he has her pinned to the ground with his hand around her neck.

So what constitutes tagging for you if not being fast enough to make contact with an opponent?

Because what you just described constitutes Aquaman tagging WW after she attacked him first from behind.

Are WW fans sinking so low as to try to invalidate in canon art and comics?

WW fans are pissed (un-rightfully) but I didn't expect this kind of twisting and denial.

But after "debating" with some and taking a look at the WW forums I can see it should be expected.

No wonder WW "fans" where one of the main reasons the DC official forums at dccomics.com got shut down.

A pitty.

#117 Posted by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: So he doesn't make contact when he rushes her? LOL what?

How does he do that? Didn't know Aquaman was telekinetic.

Because after he blitzes WW, he has her pinned to the ground with his hand around her neck.

So what constitutes tagging for you if not being fast enough to make contact with an opponent?

Because what you just described constitutes Aquaman tagging WW after she attacked him first from behind.

Are WW fans sinking so low as to try to invalidate in canon art and comics?

WW fans are pissed (un-rightfully) but I didn't expect this kind of twisting and denial.

But after "debating" with some and taking a look at the WW forums I can see it should be expected.

No wonder WW "fans" where one of the main reasons the DC official forums at dccomics.com got shut down.

A pitty.

He doesn't strike her or at her. Your entire argument here is based on one single panel. A panel in which he never hits her. Tagging means hitting. And you talk about twisting facts lol it's all on panel. Maybe you read it wrong. Wonder Woman has an entire fight where she dodges punches from someone who was dodging Flash.

#118 Posted by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: Of course he tags her. He grabs her by the throat and pins her down. What comic book are you reading?

Also just for argument's sake, can you please provide the limit on how fast Aquaman is?

Because you mention how fast WW is (her best feat so far) but how do you know how fast Aquaman is?

So far by feats he is fast enough to tag WW.

That's all.

DC comics seems to have a very different opinion from yours on what Aquaman can do dude.

Let it go and next time AQ and WW are portrayed as near equals, you won't be so surprised.

#119 Posted by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: Of course he tags her. He grabs her by the throat and pins her down. What comic book are you reading?

Also just for argument's sake, can you please provide the limit on how fast Aquaman is?

Because you mention how fast WW is (her best feat so far) but how do you know how fast Aquaman is?

So far by feats he is fast enough to tag WW.

That's all.

DC comics seems to have a very different opinion from yours on what Aquaman can do dude.

Let it go and next time AQ and WW are portrayed as near equals, you won't be so surprised.

Note your first sentence. Grabs her and pins her down. Even if that were true (which it's not) he never hits. Your ENTIRE argument is based on the fact that showed a burst of super speed and she didn't speed away in fear. I'd call it a bluff but we can all see your cards.

#120 Edited by Fallschirmjager (16818 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: Your argument is literally the worst I've ever heard.

In order to grab someone and pin them down, you have to touch them. Touching = hitting.

In fact its probably harder to grab someone and pin them down, that just hit them because of glancing blows. Not to mention the strength required to hold someone down is far superior.

Never mind the fact that he's also tagging Superman. He's restrained Cheetah. He's stabbed Darkseid several times. ETC, ETC, ETC.

Don't know why people have a problem with Aquaman getting a boost. Get over it all ready.

#121 Posted by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: Your argument is literally the worst I've ever heard.

In order to grab someone and pin them down, you have to touch them. Touching = hitting.

In fact its probably harder to grab someone and pin them down, that just hit them because of glancing blows. Not to mention the strength required to hold someone down is far superior.

Never mind the fact that he's also tagging Superman. He's restrained Cheetah. He's stabbed Darkseid several times. ETC, ETC, ETC.

Don't know why people have a problem with Aquaman getting a boost. Get over it all ready.

LOOK at the scan! They're talking and he rushes her. If one of my friends rushed me I wouldn't just start wailing on them. Secondly, why do you assume he's physically holding her down? She's not even struggling. She cracks him in the face on the very next page. Until she decided to actually fight him, we'll never know if he has that level of speed. Right now there is nothing to show he does.

Everyone hits Superman. This has already been covered.

He didn't restrain Cheetah by force. She was startled by the 100 monster fish he brought with him when he grabbed her underwater.

Everyone hit Darkseid...

#123 Edited by Fallschirmjager (16818 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: lol. Your attempts at minimizing are bad at best.

-Aquaman had just had his hands around Batman's throat and punched Superman. To say something stupid like "WW wasn't trying" when he has just attacked the other 2 members of the trinity is downplaying both of them. She isn't stupid and he is a warrior, she wouldn't just allow someone to grab her throat like that.

-He brought some piranhas. But yeah. Cheetah was scared of the fish when she had just team-busted the JLA including cursing Superman, ripping up Flash and going toe-to-toe with Wonder Woman. But the fish were her problem. Great argument.

-Darkseid hit everyone too! Further proof everyone can hit everyone.

Again I don't know what your problem is with Aquaman. He has hit everyone and there are 0 cases of someone being to fast for him to not hit.

#124 Edited by comicfan11 (740 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: Lol dude just Lol.

He is holding her down because you can see WW arms trying to get free.

Or do you thing WW is trying to grab Aquaman's arms because she likes the texture of his gloves?

I have nothing more to add to this conversation.

You made your double standard "logic" perfectly clear, so please don't pretend you are not here to lowball despite the comics, the writers and even the mods on this site proving you wrong.

I hope a WW writer make's her more relevant to the New DCU, but just stop pretending your "opinion" is anything more than fanboyish wishful thinking that contradicts current continuity contradicted by all on panel evidence..

Also yeah he outreacted Cheetah underwater and then easily subdued her with one hand.

I see your repertoir of lowballing is expanding.

Again pity.

#125 Posted by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: lol. Your attempts at minimizing are bad at best.

-Aquaman had just had his hands around Batman's throat and punched Superman. To say something stupid like "WW wasn't trying" when he has just attacked the other 2 members of the trinity is downplaying both of them. She isn't stupid and he is a warrior, she wouldn't just allow someone to grab her throat like that.

-He brought some piranhas. But yeah. Cheetah was scared of the fish when she had just team-busted the JLA including cursing Superman, ripping up Flash and going toe-to-toe with Wonder Woman. But the fish were her problem. Great argument.

-Darkseid hit everyone too! Further proof everyone can hit everyone.

Again I don't know what your problem is with Aquaman. He has hit everyone and there are 0 cases of someone being to fast for him to not hit.

-She clobbers him on the next page!! She is smart and new he wasn't attacking.

-The shock is drawn right there on her face. Look it up.

-Not proof of anything but ok.

I don't have a problem with Aquaman. His book in the New 52 is one of my favorites. I like his more than hers.

Also yeah he outreacted Cheetah underwater and then easily subdued her with one hand.

I see your repertoir of lowballing is expanding.

Again pity.

Got all that from one picture did we? Wow. And with that I'm done talking to you.

#126 Posted by Nerd Of A Hero (862 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman can never tag Superman in terms of speed. As for Wonder Woman, while I haven't seen anything in her series that can be on the same level as Superman's feats, I don't think Aquaman has a chance if she gets series either. I saw some scans when she was up against Supergirl and won, I've never seen Aquaman doing anything in such a level when it comes to speed.

#127 Posted by Baberaham_Lincoln (926 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerd_of_a_hero: Superman will always be Top Dog when it comes to comparing him to his fellow leaguers... As of Flashpoint, i think it has been Johns' intention to 'raise the bar' for Aquaman's standard, hence why so many love him now with the new 52, showing off consistent feats and what have you. Wonder Woman has largely been verbally hyped when it comes to her capabilities. Look at the trinity war event, Frankenstein didn't want to fight her because of her 'greatness' (i'm paraphrasing, so forgive me for any vague statements). But this is how she's been portrayed in the JL series. I got to read WW solo series, and it's great... in that, she's definitely a more 'powerful' character, but nothing Aquaman can't handle (not beat, just handle! =D)

#128 Edited by TommyJones1945 (749 posts) - - Show Bio

Meh, in terms of feats, Superman surpass both. Both currently, I see WW and AM around the same level. Geoff did a good job to beef up Aquaman in the n52. If these two fought, I'd give WW 6/10 mostly because of weapon versatility and speed. Strengthwise, he's got her.

CIN.

#129 Posted by Jhaigo99 (177 posts) - - Show Bio

Aquaman and Superman are on the same level and Aquaman is probably better in feats but Superman is in a totally different weight class to the both of them.

#130 Posted by Fallschirmjager (16818 posts) - - Show Bio

forgot about this thread

lets just sum it up with this

#131 Posted by BlackWind (6123 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: Funny, Atlan would have liked an Atlantean/Human hybrid back in the day. Too bad it had to come to this.

#132 Posted by Justthatkid (3517 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager: I'm hoping his showings on land are greatly shown as well, Aquaman#29 looks like it will be a power battle with the introduction of Atlas to the DCnU a guy who seems capable of beating Superman based on the images on his page.

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