Apocalypse is wrong

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#51 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Octagon Enigma says:

"crazy spidey says:
"Octagon Enigma says:
"Eugenics was invented by Sir Francis Galton, before Darwin. It was also used by the Nazis. And please don't start that "thread is over" stuff. Threads are over when they are over, no one person can decide the time (save for the mighty three admins)."
and Hitler is a folower of Darwin"
And there's my point. Everyone likes to believe that, but how can we know? He was a f*cking brilliant manipulatist, how do we know he didn't just claim that so he could eliminate the "weak?""

I have nooooooo idea wat ur talking about. maybe he manipulated everyone to think that ww2 happened wen it didnt. OMG. but no, he was a follower. theres proof that he is, so unless u can disprove the proof, ur just shooting smoke

#52 Posted by Octagon Enigma (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

How old are you?

#53 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Octagon Enigma says:

"How old are you?"

16, and until u can come up with some proof that hitler wasnt a follower, then I dont know where u get ur ideas

#54 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)

#55 Posted by Octagon Enigma (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

crazy spidey says:

"Octagon Enigma says:
"How old are you?"
16, and until u can come up with some proof that hitler wasnt a follower, then I dont know where u get ur ideas"

I stated my reasoning plainly: He was a f*cking brilliant manipulatist. He could make people think what he wanted. And Hitler was not a follower of anyone, he was a leader.

#56 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Octagon Enigma says:

"crazy spidey says:
"Octagon Enigma says:
"How old are you?"
16, and until u can come up with some proof that hitler wasnt a follower, then I dont know where u get ur ideas"
I stated my reasoning plainly: He was a f*cking brilliant manipulatist. He could make people think what he wanted. And Hitler was not a follower of anyone, he was a leader."

right, now I think ur giving him a bit(waaayyyyy) to much credit. Like I said I respect Hitler but he wasnt a god,he was great at motivation etc. and a leader, but alot of his plans and propaganda were made by other ppl. And from his early years (as obvious in Mein Kampf) he was a follower of Darwin

#57 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Warlock360 says:

"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"

WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god.

#58 Posted by Octagon Enigma (2121 posts) - - Show Bio

I've read Mein Kampf. A few times. Have you?

#59 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Octagon Enigma says:

"I've read Mein Kampf. A few times. Have you?"

extracts and u can see his Social Darwinian theories in it

#60 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

crazy spidey says:

"Warlock360 says:
"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"

WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god."

xD i wasnt sayin he is/was i ment he made other ppl believe he was! he would have been great for germany if he hadnt done that war stuff and the things what he did with the jews... 95% Of the streets that we have today in Germany were made under hitlers command and btw how did this come from APOCALYPSE WAS WRONG! to say no to hitler (from a guy with a parathetic hitler avatar)?^^

#61 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Warlock360 says:

"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"
WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god."
xD i wasnt sayin he is/was i ment he made other ppl believe he was! he would have been great for germany if he hadnt done that war stuff and the things what he did with the jews... 95% Of the streets that we have today in Germany were made under hitlers command and btw how did this come from APOCALYPSE WAS WRONG! to say no to hitler (from a guy with a parathetic hitler avatar)?^^"

ummmmm... WIR MUSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSTRACHEN

#62 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

crazy spidey says:

"Warlock360 says:
"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"
WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god."
xD i wasnt sayin he is/was i ment he made other ppl believe he was! he would have been great for germany if he hadnt done that war stuff and the things what he did with the jews... 95% Of the streets that we have today in Germany were made under hitlers command and btw how did this come from APOCALYPSE WAS WRONG! to say no to hitler (from a guy with a parathetic hitler avatar)?^^"

ummmmm... WIR MUSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSTRACHEN"

It's: WIR MÜSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSROTTEN! and it means we have to eliminate/terminate/vanquish the jews! ^^

#63 Posted by crazy spidey (3489 posts) - - Show Bio

Warlock360 says:

"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"
WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god."
xD i wasnt sayin he is/was i ment he made other ppl believe he was! he would have been great for germany if he hadnt done that war stuff and the things what he did with the jews... 95% Of the streets that we have today in Germany were made under hitlers command and btw how did this come from APOCALYPSE WAS WRONG! to say no to hitler (from a guy with a parathetic hitler avatar)?^^"
ummmmm... WIR MUSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSTRACHEN"
It's: WIR MÜSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSROTTEN! and it means we have to eliminate/terminate/vanquish the jews! ^^"

ein volch ein reich ein fuhrer.

#64 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

crazy spidey says:

"Warlock360 says:
"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"
WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god."
xD i wasnt sayin he is/was i ment he made other ppl believe he was! he would have been great for germany if he hadnt done that war stuff and the things what he did with the jews... 95% Of the streets that we have today in Germany were made under hitlers command and btw how did this come from APOCALYPSE WAS WRONG! to say no to hitler (from a guy with a parathetic hitler avatar)?^^"
ummmmm... WIR MUSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSTRACHEN"
It's: WIR MÜSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSROTTEN! and it means we have to eliminate/terminate/vanquish the jews! ^^"

ein volch ein reich ein fuhrer. "

LOL

= ONE RACE ONE EMPIRE ONE LEADER

#65 Posted by Firestormnuclerman (2097 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it strange to say someone would go as far as to say Apocalypse goal is correct so that makes him right.  He's a nefarious savage that deserves to be on the top 10 list of Marvel's Eviliest Super Villains.
 He's not much different than Joker except he can use the whole crap about survival of the fittest to say he's doing nothing wrong.

#66 Posted by cracks (6781 posts) - - Show Bio

Apocalypse is a fool. There are mutants who are well above him and he thinks that he is at the top. 

#67 Posted by RavagingHamster (836 posts) - - Show Bio
@Voidheart said:
"

crazy spidey says:

"Warlock360 says:
"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"crazy spidey says:
"Warlock360 says:
"I'll have to agree on Octagon in this one We (the germans) called him Führer (which means leader)"
WAT? because he made everyone call him Mein Furer doesnt mean he didnt repect or was influenced greatly by other people. Christ, He s not god."
xD i wasnt sayin he is/was i ment he made other ppl believe he was! he would have been great for germany if he hadnt done that war stuff and the things what he did with the jews... 95% Of the streets that we have today in Germany were made under hitlers command and btw how did this come from APOCALYPSE WAS WRONG! to say no to hitler (from a guy with a parathetic hitler avatar)?^^"
ummmmm... WIR MUSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSTRACHEN"
It's: WIR MÜSSEN DIE JUDEN AUSROTTEN! and it means we have to eliminate/terminate/vanquish the jews! ^^"

ein volch ein reich ein fuhrer. "

LOL

= ONE RACE ONE EMPIRE ONE LEADER

"

i only find that funny because of the South Park episode about Kyle seeing The Passion and Cartman dressing as hitler leading the dumb townsfolk on a march shouting that ^^  but the real meaning and use, not so fuinny
#68 Edited by Omega-level Supreme (1159 posts) - - Show Bio


Thank you, Crazy Spidey  
You have created an informative and amusing thread. I must add you are quite right and very bright for someone your age.
Given the info you provided, I like to point out the fact that Dawin was born on February 12, 1809, and passed away 19 April 1882. While Apocalypse is alledged to have been born and reared during the Ptolemaic Dynasty of Ancient Egypt. That's a few millenium of indoctrination prior to the siring of the aforementioned author. I think the writer who came up with Apocalypse's personal philosophy did borrow from Social Dawinism and the Nazi party - as many writers do when creating a supervillain - to give the character depth and intimidation. They probably didn't research it out any further than that, because the idea of a superhuman with a superiority complex and a 'might makes right' attitude sells itself. Whatever spin they put on it makes for a very compelling story, however. Wouldn't you agree?

#69 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@Firestormnuclerman: So you are saying that Apoc. is making an excuse to "be evil?"
#70 Posted by Wario88 (1619 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok Apoc is wrong and so now what?

#71 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio

Darwin didn't coin the term "Survival of the fittest" in any case. He also meant it in exactly the way that Apocalypse uses it, in that natural selection comes from the ability of a species to adapt in order to survive their immediate environment. This applies to mutants in a very specific way, and is the reason it is Apocalypse's tagline. Mutants are adaptations to mankind's environment - Earth (post-Industrial Revolution, for the most part). Mutants have enhanced abilities which make it more likely for them to survive their natural environment, and even some unnatural ones.
 
In real life, natural selection is being overridden by mankind's ability to adapt our environment to suit our own needs. Hope this helps dispel some strange notions regarding this topic.

#72 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio

What he meant was "Survival of the fit enough.", since that's what evolution is.
 
It just came out wrong.

#73 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast said:
" What he meant was "Survival of the fit enough.", since that's what evolution is. It just came out wrong. "
No, he was quoting Herbert Spencer.
#74 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" Darwin didn't coin the term "Survival of the fittest" in any case. He also meant it in exactly the way that Apocalypse uses it, in that natural selection comes from the ability of a species to adapt in order to survive their immediate environment. This applies to mutants in a very specific way, and is the reason it is Apocalypse's tagline. Mutants are adaptations to mankind's environment - Earth (post-Industrial Revolution, for the most part). Mutants have enhanced abilities which make it more likely for them to survive their natural environment, and even some unnatural ones. In real life, natural selection is being overridden by mankind's ability to adapt our environment to suit our own needs. Hope this helps dispel some strange notions regarding this topic. "
this. perfect.

@Korg said:
" @The Mast said:
" What he meant was "Survival of the fit enough.", since that's what evolution is. It just came out wrong. "
No, he was quoting Herbert Spencer. "
and this.
 
so yeah Apocalypse did have it right. Survival of the fittest= the fittest survive. i agree its the OP who got it
wrong here. also its in a comic world, and in his story specifically shown in The Further Adventures Of Cyclops And
Phoenix, Darwin actually took his cues off evidence Apocalypse was leaving about and Sinister laughed at him
considering him an amateur.
#75 Edited by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio

Erm:
 
 http://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/entry-5140#back-mark-5140.f5
 
Natural selection is what it has always referred to. Natural selection is not survival of the fittest.

Spencer always understood the term "Fit", in the context of his saying, to mean "Those equipped best to survive and adapt.". If that's the case, it's survival of the fit enough. Those who prove to be good ENOUGH to survive, survive. It's a tautology.

#76 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: 
thats the same thing. "natural selection" allows those that adapt better to overcome 
those who do not, hence, "the fittest survive ". this was the same credo Apocalypse was
practicing as well, specifically focused in the adaptions of mutants.
#77 Edited by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio

Mr. Sinister also technically believes in the Survival of the Fittest. Not directly though.  Apocalypse's vision is simply a more extreme version of Magneto's vision. I would dare to say that Mr. Sinister, compared to the three, is the least extreme or devastating and Apoc. is a fool to think that he is the most powerful mutant. 

#78 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @The Mast:  thats the same thing. "natural selection" allows those that adapt better to overcome  those who do not, hence, "the fittest survive ". this was the same credo Apocalypse was practicing as well, specifically focused in the adaptions of mutants. "
 
Not really.
 
Apocalypse believed in the survival of one area because HE deemed it the most advanced and thus, better for the Earth. Like Hitler believed regarding jews, he believes for everyone who isn't a mutant.
 
That's not natural selection at all.
#79 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: Apocalypse wouldn't hesitate to kill a "weak" mutant. 
#80 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: 
say what? i pretty much have to think a species that evolution itself mutated and evolved giving
it abilities like control of the weather, telekinesis, wings, immortality, ect, is actually more advanced,
something which evolution of nature caused, not Apocalypse, definatly fits the criteria for natural selection.
#81 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast said:
"  Not really.  Apocalypse believed in the survival of one area because HE deemed it the most advanced and thus, better for the Earth. Like Hitler believed regarding jews, he believes for everyone who isn't a mutant.  That's not natural selection at all. "
Apocalypse doesn't practice what he preaches. This doesn't change the fact that his mantra is "survival of the fittest". Darwin used this phrase to refer to those individuals best adapted to survive in their environment. For Apocalypse, this means mutants. Mutants, generally speaking, were more likely to survive the modern world than regular people, until Bendis stepped in.
#82 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@crazy spidey: They probably were thinking about Hitler when they made Apocalypse a Marvel character though.  AOA delineates such a personality.
#83 Edited by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio

So, we can agree that Apocalypse was not right, he was wrong and has always been wrong.  He isn't judging based on what's best for the world, he's judging based on what Apocalypse believes is best for the world...his world.
 
He interprets the phrase incorrectly, as is often the case.

#84 Posted by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast said:
"He interprets the phrase incorrectly"
He uses the phrase in exact accordance with how Darwin used it (metaphorically, not literally). Fittest = best adapted to survive, not the most physically fit. Darwin (the mutant) is a perfect example of this. He survives, because he adapts - that is what he does. Is he "the fittest", physically speaking? No, of course not. The phrase "survival of the fittest" can be interpreted in a number of ways. The interpretation that Apocalypse uses is just as valid as your own, even if it is not the interpretation used in modern science.
#85 Edited by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: He does not care about the fate of the masses. He only wants to see himself at the top of everyone.  He definitely cares about the world, because he needs a place to rule over. The part I don't get is, if he kills everyone because they are "weak" then how can he rule? He only respects the strong, no matter what species. 
#86 Edited by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: 
who's agreeing. lol. im not. im under the impression you missed a few series, especially X-Cutioners Song,
Adventures Of Cyclops And Phoenix, Further..., Rise Of Apocalypse and Askani Son. also, which other
phrases does he often misinterpret? you do know that one of the founding blocks, for the X-Men, one 
of the biggest was Darwins ideas right? Xavier and Magneto have also quoted him and talked about him.
also i repeat what i said above about Further Adventures. in this world Apocalypse lead Darwin on a trail of 
bread crumbs and inspired him, not the other way around. its obvious which came first here. kind of makes
it a moot point when you factor that in. as far as "judging" thats in your head, and world. Apocalypse just noticed it,
and had his own personal experiance with it as well. its actually his belief that evolution will continue foreward and
more will adapt, and those with the best adaptions will be the remainder, and according to his own future, he's right.
thats the same as a species adpating to survive and overcome. sorry, i dont agree with you.
 
in an arctic climate lets say, creature A develops fur, creature B develops scales.
creature A doesnt die from the cold while creature B does. this is natural selection,
and the fittest surviving. Apocalypse applies the same belief. a character who has developed
armored skin will be more fit than an opponent who has developed claws that cant cut that
characters skin, ect.
#87 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: It is the ancient Egyptian tribe that he grew up with who taught him about the Survival of the Fittest. Otherwise he probably would not be so obsessed with this philosophy.
#88 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@Korg said:
" @The Mast said:
"He interprets the phrase incorrectly"
He uses the phrase in exact accordance with how Darwin used it (metaphorically, not literally). Fittest = best adapted to survive, not the most physically fit. Darwin (the mutant) is a perfect example of this. He survives, because he adapts - that is what he does. Is he "the fittest", physically speaking? No, of course not. The phrase "survival of the fittest" can be interpreted in a number of ways. The interpretation that Apocalypse uses is just as valid as your own, even if it is not the interpretation used in modern science. "
@CATMANEXE also:

What would be Apocalypse's ideal world? A world in which he decides who is best and kills off whoever isn't, then rules them. He misinterprets the quote. That's not what Darwin meant at all. Not sure why this is so confusing for you.
#89 Edited by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: 
did you even read my post? have you read the comics in question? im under the belief right now that 
the answer is no. there isnt anything confusing to me. Apocalypse got the quote right. how is
Apocalypses ideal world a factor in that? especially considering that isnt his ideal world, you
should try reading the comics first. he is in a constant state of mutation and striving himself to be the fittest because he actually knows the future, and he knows he needs to be the best adapted to not only survive, but to be the fittest of all. how he applicates
the theory doesn't make a difference in its meaning. still is the same theory either way. if Darwin advanced his own 
evolution to become the Alpha it wouldnt change the theory, which is an observation of an event in nature.
#90 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @The Mast:  did you even read my post? have you read the comics in question? im under the belief right now that  the answer is no. there isnt anything confusing to me. Apocalypse got the quote right. how is Apocalypses ideal world a factor in that? especially considering that isnt his ideal world, you should try reading the comics first. he is in a constant state of mutation and striving himself to be the fittest because he actually knows the future, and he knows he needs to be the best adapted to not only survive, but to be the fittest of all. how he applicatesthe theory doesn't make a difference in its meaning. still is the same theory either way. if Darwin advanced his own  evolution to become the Alpha it wouldnt change the theory, which is an observation of an event in nature. "
 
If he got the quote right, he would let nature decide who is the best to adapt, as was intended. It wasn't ever intended in the way he meant it. He wants to rule, so how can he rule and introduce an artificial element into the process of evolution by trimming it? That goes against NATURAL selection. It's not natural selection, it's Apocalypse selection.
 
If he truly interpreted it correctly, he wouldn't be doing what he does.
#91 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: Apoc. sees himself as the best. He would kill everyone below him and weaker than him.
#92 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@Edamame said:
" @The Mast: Apoc. sees himself as the best. He would kill everyone below him and weaker than him. "
 
That's the thing. Killing the weak is not the same as letting the weak die out.
#93 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: That is destiny. It's fate. Apocalypse is destined to kill the "weak."
#94 Posted by CATMANEXE (17052 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: 
sorry but no. it was a theory of what was happening, not an application, again.
and who is he killing? right, hes not. he's just adapted to survive, and he in fact
employs those equally as adapted to him, improves them to save them if need be,
and has hung with another such group, the Externals for ages. again, the reading the comics. 
because the things your making up dont even so much as match the old animated series even.

Darwin had a theory of a principle that works in nature. it doesnt deny meaning in that belief to be
working with it. it means Apocalypse believes that that theory is in fact a fact, and he's living with
it in the forefront. 
 
nuff said. i said what i thought and you dodged it. im well aware you like 4 page arguments,
and should inform you your usual sparring partner/nemesis is online right now. 
good day.
#95 Posted by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE: Apocalypse has killed quite a few mutants. Particularly in AOA. 
#96 Posted by The Mast (790 posts) - - Show Bio
@CATMANEXE said:
" @The Mast:  sorry but no. it was a theory of what was happening, not an application, again. and who is he killing? right, hes not. he's just adapted to survive, and he in fact employs those equally as adapted to him, improves them to save them if need be, and has hung with another such group, the Externals for ages. again, the reading the comics.  because the things your making up dont even so much as match the old animated series even. Darwin had a theory of a principle that works in nature. it doesnt deny meaning in that belief to be working with it. it means Apocalypse believes that that theory is in fact a fact, and he's living with it in the forefront.   nuff said. i said what i thought and you dodged it. im well aware you like 4 page arguments, and should inform you your usual sparring partner/nemesis is online right now.  good day. "
 
I'm not dodging anything. You just don't like what I'm saying.
 
Secondly, unnaturally improving someone who was previously one of the "weak" is just going against the theory. He's a hypocrite then, isn't he? He's killing those weaker, but also improving them? When does the natural selection part come in? Never?
 
How is this in-keeping with the theory? That those who are fittest, survive? If he's willing to improve beings, why doesn't he improve everyone instead of condemning?
#97 Edited by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast: He does not care about others. He may improve someone and force them to do his bidding and then when they complete the job successfully, he will dispose of them after.  It is not a natural selection; it is just whoever manages to survive battling everyone else. He is only willing to improve beings to use them as slaves to do his bidding and then dispose of them when their jobs are done.
#98 Edited by Korg (11931 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Mast said:

"What would be Apocalypse's ideal world? A world in which he decides who is best and kills off whoever isn't, then rules them. He misinterprets the quote. That's not what Darwin meant at all. Not sure why this is so confusing for you. "

I already told you Apocalypse does not practice what he preaches. I'm not sure why this is so confusing for you. Have you never read any comics featuring this character?
#99 Posted by CosmicSpiral (5470 posts) - - Show Bio

Apocalypse preaches Social Darwinism but doesn't follow it himself. He's a hypocrite. 

#100 Edited by Edamame (28370 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 
No wonder why Mr. Sinister betrays him so much. I haven't seen Sinister betraying as many people as Apoc. does or has.
 
 
How exactly does Apoc. respond to someone more powerful to him? Would he be servile or still hating?

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