Apocalypse, invincible?

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#1 Posted by weaponx (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

In most comics and particularly 616, Apocalypse seems unbeatable but never really wins due to some flaw of nature/luck of the heroes (in my opinion). But he is invincible right? He can manipulate his entire body to do whatever his imagination wants. He can heal. His ship can resuscitate him, and he can always transfer to another body. Many people point out that he never really wins, but he is very patient and likes to have other people fight for him while he sits back and watches. So how powerful is he? Like vs. Galactus for example, or other very powerful people....

#2 Posted by Unbelonger (2770 posts) - - Show Bio

Vs Galactus? Not even a chance. He is powerful, but not that much, Any character in Thor's level or above could beat him.

zzzzzzz

#3 Posted by Cannon Fodder (133 posts) - - Show Bio

weaponx says:

"In most comics and particularly 616, Apocalypse seems unbeatable but never really wins due to some flaw of nature/luck of the heroes (in my opinion). But he is invincible right? He can manipulate his entire body to do whatever his imagination wants. He can heal. His ship can resuscitate him, and he can always transfer to another body. Many people point out that he never really wins, but he is very patient and likes to have other people fight for him while he sits back and watches. So how powerful is he? Like vs. Galactus for example, or other very powerful people...."

For about 3/4 of his lifetime he was asleep, and since he is indebted to the Celestials, they won't LET him die. Big difference from being literally immortal.

#4 Posted by Morphid (1166 posts) - - Show Bio

Unbelonger says:

"Vs Galactus? Not even a chance. He is powerful, but not that much, Any character in Thor's level or above could beat him. zzzzzzz"
Galactus is the eater of worlds, yeah it is pretty hard to believe that he is invincible.
#5 Posted by weaponx (1566 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh ok, so why is he indebted to the immortals, and what does he have to do in return?

#6 Posted by Cannon Fodder (133 posts) - - Show Bio

weaponx says:

"Oh ok, so why is he indebted to the immortals, and what does he have to do in return?"

That, funny enough, is left unspecified, only "you cannot die yet. dur dur dur"

#7 Posted by Unbelonger (2770 posts) - - Show Bio

Morphid says:

"Unbelonger says:
"Vs Galactus? Not even a chance. He is powerful, but not that much, Any character in Thor's level or above could beat him. zzzzzzz"
Galactus is the eater of worlds, yeah it is pretty hard to believe that he is invincible. "

Waht i meant, is that apocalypsis has no chance against galactus, and that any character in Thor's(example) level should be able to beat Apocalypsis.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

#8 Posted by superjedi (112 posts) - - Show Bio

magneto once split Apocolypse in half!!!!!!!! There are many who could destroy Apocolypse.

#9 Posted by rbysjti (10690 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder why Magneto was able to do it.

#10 Posted by lordraiden (7471 posts) - - Show Bio

rbysjti says:

"I wonder why Magneto was able to do it."

Cause he used metal to tear into him and split him in half!

#11 Posted by HellionVulcan (3867 posts) - - Show Bio
Unbelonger said:
"

Morphid says:

"Unbelonger says:
"Vs Galactus? Not even a chance. He is powerful, but not that much, Any character in Thor's level or above could beat him. zzzzzzz"
Galactus is the eater of worlds, yeah it is pretty hard to believe that he is invincible. "

Waht i meant, is that apocalypsis has no chance against galactus, and that any character in Thor's(example) level should be able to beat Apocalypsis.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

"
Thor a god he beats Apocalypse by default but the Celestials wanted apocalypse to do stuff for them in return for letting him "borrow" the technology but i think he may be Immortal in the sense that after he dies he can live in the astral plane & take over another body kinda like cyber did to that kid .. .
#12 Posted by PrinceIMC (5422 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd call him immortal but not invincible. There are just so many ways for him to come back, but he can be beaten or contained. Killing him might give you a few years before he comes back.

#13 Posted by Edamame (28311 posts) - - Show Bio
@rbysjti: He shouldn't have been able to do it because all Apocalypse had to do was absorb Magneto's electromagnetic energies and transmute him or throw it right back at him.  Apoc. would absorb Magneto's electromagnetic energies when Magneto gets a grip on Apoc. to try and rip him in half.  Magneto has the faster reaction time though. 
#14 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@weaponx : He never really wins because of Marvel writes stories where the good guys always win. He did end the world and killed 99 % of the heroes and villans in Marvel but then Cable prevented this future from happening by shattering his essence.
#15 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@HellionVulcan:  You do realize that there is a comic where the Harbinger of Apocalypse beats the Avengers with Thor included ?
#16 Posted by crackerjack82 (2607 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415: i would love to see that posted
#17 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_%28comics%29#cite_note-56, look at abilities of Apocalypse.
#18 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@crackerjack82: Here a more specific one 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbinger_of_Apocalypse
#19 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio

Remember things have limits, Apocalypse can not, control his body to the extent that he can manipulate it to his imaginations extent. Galactus can't even do that, unless he has no imagination lol, He (Apocalypse) can only manipulate it (his body) molecularly, I forget right now the extent, it might be more precise. This means, he can increase his density to a certain point, and increase his size to a certain point, but only to a limit, to which we have not seen yet, but its there, and physically its going to be at a molecular level, but the actual limit, will probably be mentally.  He could of course absorb more energy and matter, but that would have a limit as well. 
 
Didn't Thor actually whup Harbinger pretty easy, sending him flying, Harbinger had the power to adapt or something, he came back and got a lucky shot on Thor, hitting him away as well, but then people realized he was a bomb and he had to be dealt with, and so Thor and Harbinger never really had a good crack at each other? I am suspicious of people of how people phrase the word beat, at this site. Apparently everyone is at full power and never holding back, and you get beat if you get pushed off panel and aren't back in two panels.  
 
Apocalypse was also worshipped as a god at one point as well, so wary of comparisons. Titles don't always define power, least of all, physical power.

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#20 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  Harbinger was adapting to all of their attacks even Thor's. Thor attacked him but his attack was useless. Here it is in this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbinger_of_Apocalypse
#21 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  It was Harbinger who sent Thor flying right after he called him a false idol. If you have the comic you should read it yourself.
#22 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415 said:
" @SC:  It was Harbinger who sent Thor flying right after he called him a false idol. If you have the comic you should read it yourself. "
 
I do have the comic, the ones before and after it too. Harbinger was doing okay against Avengers till Thor showed up, and then later he did much better against Thor, but its extremely flawed logic to think he was then more powerful than Thor, and whether he could continue adapting, and what constitutes a "beat" and is the term applied consistently here?  
 
Your use of the word "useless" also appears quite flawed too, almost as if you are trying to imply something like your opinion as fact. Perhaps you could detail the nature of it being useless. Thor struck him and nothing, literally happened? Maybe it was a testing blow, even if it had no effect, it would still have a use. So on. 
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#23 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: If you remember what Iron man said about Harbinger getting stronger by the moment. Harbinger in the Cable 68 said " I was built to survive my enemy's worst". I am not trying to turn my opinion into a fact, all I am stating are facts from the comic itself. Adaptability is Bruce Lee's concept of Jee Kun Do. Which means you become like water and flow with what it is your fighting. With Harbinger his power is literally this idea of Bruce Lee, the only difference is Harbinger's body adapts automatically. You should read comics with deep analysis if you are going to to post on a debate forum. Because you are going to miss out on the small details that make you miss the big picture.
#24 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415 said:
" @SC: If you remember what Iron man said about Harbinger getting stronger by the moment. Harbinger in the Cable 68 said " I was built to survive my enemy's worst". I am not trying to turn my opinion into a fact, all I am stating are facts from the comic itself. Adaptability is Bruce Lee's concept of Jee Kun Do. Which means you become like water and flow with what it is your fighting. With Harbinger his power is literally this idea of Bruce Lee, the only difference is Harbinger's body adapts automatically. You should read comics with deep analysis if you are going to to post on a debate forum. Because you are going to miss out on the small details that make you miss the big picture. "
 
Thats narrative and a common narrative technique at that, my friend. Many characters say lots of other things about characters that are false or have option for different context. I appreciate your analogy but its unnecessary. I apologize if your attempt is at providing objective information, you seem just a little heavy handed to me with your choice of words, especially to the other poster prior. Oh, I definitely read comics with a great deal of attention and care, but this is not a debate forum lol, its a comic forum, and there is such a thing as reading into your own interpretation more than the actual story. You seem to neglect most characters would adapt to an extent as well, it doesn't mean that their ability to adapt is limitless. Same application to The Fury and Doomsday.  
 
You also did not cover your use of the word "useless" which again, is a curious choice for someone attempting to state facts objectively. 
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#25 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: I know for a fact that Harbinger wouldn't adapt to Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet, Living Tribunal, and other characters on those levels but for people like the Avengers and even Cable during 90s Harbinger adapts to people like that because they are not omnipotent. I have come across people who claim Thor is galaxy buster, but what makes Thor so great that makes you doubt that Harbinger should gave been effected by Thor's hit.
#26 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415: Ah see, now to me, this for you, appears less about   Harbinger, and more about Thor, and your experiences away from the facts discussed here, you can see why I am doubtful of your authenticity. There is nothing that great about Thor, that quality is a non factor here, there is merely nothing to indicate much facts about anything here. Could   Harbinger have continued to adapt if 100 more Marvel characters jumped down? What was the nature of the bomb inside him, and could other characters have replicated? Was Thor holding back? He has a tendency to do that. Maybe he was going all out? Maybe he was lucky the first time and  Harbinger was holding back? Could Harbinger adapt to a godblast? Plus a thousand more variables, and questions, unanswered by the issue in question. Those are where the facts lie, with answers to those questions. Mostly everything else is subjective interpretation and thats usually how comics have it. The fact you think a no sell situation, means useless, and I think that it could have a use, is testament to that. 
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#27 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  It is through the comprehensive ability of the reader you can understand whether or not a character will beat this character. If you don't have a full understanding of the character Thor you are defending then you are just posting you opinions there are no facts of what you say about Thor's attacks suppose to be doing this. Neither character in the Cable comics first series were weakned or powered up alot. Harbinger was  transformed by Apocalypse with Celestial technology and then put into hibernation for 200 years. The effects of that hibernation meant Harbinger's power was being evolved up to a point where he was able to escape a dimension he was thrown in.
#28 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415:  I reject that entirely. Its the readers imagination that fills in the gaps, and their own preferences that usually determines the winner, in cases like this one, where the situation wasn't very controlled, or thoroughly tested for consistency. Anyone who says otherwise has a clear agenda. 
 
Maybe I do have a full understanding of Thor, who is the person who gets to decide that it is a full understanding, or just a 98% understanding? You keep misusing the word fact again, please don't get defensive, but lack of facts can't create facts, no matter how much you insist.  I didn't claim facts about Thor's attacks, I cited lack of facts, as an example. How could you miss that? My only conclusion is that you see something as a potential positive for Thor and you wildly start arguing even if the particular argument has nothing to do with him at all. Its otherwise cherry picking, if my argument was that it was a fact Thor was holding back, despite nothing on panel to indicate it in this comic, then my argument would be the exact same as yours. 
 
Then you follow this up with statements that aren't being disputed, you feel I am trying to claim Mojo created Harbinger from Wolverines shaved off and collected sideburns? 
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#29 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415: Ah I see, your a huge Apocalypse fan right? Harbinger reflects on Apocalypse. With no offense intended, but I mention, because I don't want to go around in circles, but you seem to have a natural bias for Apocalypse and so with ambiguous and vague details concerning both Apocalypse and Harbinger, you seem willing to ignore a critical eye, and apply favorable thinking to your favored characters. You mention the word fact a lot, but one of your examples of a fact was dismissed by me, rather casually as narrative technique and common in comics, and often as flawed examples. Character narration is never intended to be wholly accurate, so your application of fact I can into question.  
 
Plus hey, you seem to know a lot about Apocalypse, and Harbinger and thats awesome, but your phrasing of certain words and logic? Opinion backed with solid reasoning is as potent as facts, it still seems weird to me that you would pass things that are clearly not facts, as facts. We can ultimately agree to disagree there.
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#30 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio

Then you  are basically saying we can't determine facts from comics. That is completely wrong, you determine facts from comics by under what age of comics, whether the character is a classic version or not, under which writer is the character being written. You claim these lack of facts are present in the Cable 68 yet you don't seem to understand what Harbinger really is. I saw in Cable 67 that Thor put him in a diffferent dimension he adapted and got stronger, then in Cable 68 Thor attacked him once more only to be blasted back. Harbinger adapts, I really doubt that Thor was holding back when he hit pit Harbinger into another dimension. Even if Thor hit him with a god blast Harbinger would adapt. Please understand this finally. HE ADAPTS, REREAD THE COMIC ONCE MORE.

#31 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  Where would readers get their facts from if Character narration is never intended to be wholly accurate? You are basically saying that posting scans of feats from story lines of characters are useless because they aren't wholly accurate. You know I have read the Avengers for years, and they are very consistent characters , they are never out of character. What lack of facts are you talking about?
#32 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415:  lol, this is a huge philosophical discussion, but you do realize that comics are not there to provide facts correct? They are entertainment. They can have facts in them, but that is not the goal or point of them. I am saying that if you have a scan of a bad guy, bragging that he will beat the heroes, and is the most powerful force on the planet, that you do not take their word for it. Easy concept right? Not that scans are useless, it depends on why and how you are using them. Use a scan to demonstrate that Hulk has once punched the Juggernaut? Well, thats a fact, he has, use a scan of Hulk punching Juggernaut to show that he is more powerful than him as a fact? Uh, no... not really, you can't determine something like power from just a scan of one guy punching another. You might as well ask what the smell of the number 8 is.  
 
Hundreds, thousands of Avengers fans would, and do disagree with you. Especially when it comes to Bendis, Slott, and so on, I am not sure what your point is here surely you know this. Consistency is subjective, you must also realize.  
 
Oh, i missed your first post, no good sir, please don't try and present a very flawed argument, and attribute it to me, of course we can obtain facts from comics, but just like we can't make up any fact we want from a comic, there will be examples that fall into one or the other. I am saying many of your facts, fall into the category of not actually being facts. You think Harbinger is Bruce Lee, and get upset at people for disagreeing with you (your use of caps, i'll attribute that as upset or angry, I may be incorrect) i have read the comic, and the fact that you readily admit the use of and lack of doubt, firmly establishes he fact that your use of the word fact was premature. Otherwise you could present me a scan, where Thor says that he is definitely not holding back, and then the TOAA flies down and says... "yep... Thor is definitely not holding back" and then you have reason to invoke a fact, but more than that, this emphasis on Thor, you haven't gotten into arguments with guys with Hammer avatars have you? lol Might that be the reason you seem more hung up on that rather than the heart of the argument, establishing what is factual within fictional elements? (or potentially adaptability and its limits)
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#33 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415: Plus you claim I don't understand a character because I disagree with you? You seem to be having trouble articulating your argument, because come on man, thats not an argument lol 
 
Man, are you enjoying this? I am, I always wanted to be on the school debate team. >.>
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#34 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: I haven't gotten into any arguments with Thor fans, just Silver Surfer and Thanos Fans. Its up to you the person reading the comic to determine what makes the most sense in a very unbiased perspective. If comics are only for entertainment then how does one determine which character will be beat who. If it were to be based upon the people that know the character's abilities then it would just be a battle that of endless opinions that don't take the character's personal can't and can dos with their powers. Characters without their comics just have their images that display what they look like. If you have read 100 % of Thor comics then you would have been able to figure out whether or not Thor was holding back. Whether or not that was the Thor you fully understand who he is, what he has, his personal experience, character, personality. Of course from one scan of a character doing something you can't determine their abilities compared with the other character. But after you have read 100 % of their comics then you would know whether or not that is bullshit.
#35 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  Your honestly have not given any damn explanation about your super duper, colorful, great Thor. I am enjoying this, if you do join a debate club don't have too much of an open mind or your not going to win rotten apples.
#36 Posted by Manchine (4184 posts) - - Show Bio

Pretty much any A Power level Hero/Villain can beat Apocalypse.  He isn't on a level of Loki, Kang, Thor, Hulk, Silver Surfer Etc.
#37 Posted by Edamame (28311 posts) - - Show Bio
@Manchine: Hi again.  ; ) 
 
May I ask how exactly the Hulk can defeat Apocalypse? I am aware that you told me he only defeated a dying Hulk, but still. 
#38 Posted by Manchine (4184 posts) - - Show Bio
@Edamame said:
" @Manchine: Hi again.  ; )   May I ask how exactly the Hulk can defeat Apocalypse? I am aware that you told me he only defeated a dying Hulk, but still.  "

Same way he beats everyone pound him into paste.  Even Apocalypse can only handle so much.
#39 Posted by Edamame (28311 posts) - - Show Bio
@Manchine said:
" Same way he beats everyone pound him into paste.  Even Apocalypse can only handle so much. "
Hmm... Well, couldn't Apocalypse use his teleportation abilities to his advantage? 
 
Also, can't Apocalypse make himself intangible? How would the Hulk touch him then? 
 
Furthermore, how is the Hulk going to damage Apocalypse when he grows to a very large size?
#40 Edited by Manchine (4184 posts) - - Show Bio

TP is gonna give him a very small advantage.  For a very short time.  If he turns Intangible he won't beat hulk and that will just make him angrier and he will get stronger.  If apocalypse grows it will just be easier for hulk to hit him.  He still won't be as strong as the hulk.  Hulk has the power to take him down but apocalypse doesn't have the power to take Hulk down.  Apocalypse can run away but thats about it.  If he fights him he loses. 
 
 
Its obvious Hulk can beat Apocalypse.  The main question how can Apocalypse beat hulk.
#41 Posted by Edamame (28311 posts) - - Show Bio
@Manchine:  Never mentioned telepathy.  
Well, if he goes intangible, then couldn't Apocalypse transform his arms into slicing blades and chop off the Hulk's head? 
 
Oh, I know, but is the Hulk going to just hit Apocalypse's leg when he is in a big size? Is he going to climb up and hit Apoc. in the head?
#42 Posted by PowerHerc (85113 posts) - - Show Bio

Not invincible.
#43 Posted by Theworldbreaker (1642 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm taking everytinhg into consideration from the harbinger fight with Thor and how he is weaker then apoc, but then the possibility of thor holding back. then we know apocalypse casualy whipes te floor with the x-men which for hulk's case we only saw the green scar do (casauly whip the floor with them, not struggle in beating them) has'ent he taken on more then 1 team of x-men at once? (apoc) anyways. taking all this into consideration i believe he could take on silver surfer (before he got Amped and able to take out BRB) at have fair chance of winning (Unless silver surfer realy wants to Kill him...black holes in eyes..) i dont see him beating Thanos though, i think he could take on darkseid though (depending on if the OE are going to jobb when used or not) but thats just me, maby he could realy beat Thor which would put him some where near thanos's level but....i dont want to start an argument i dont even know about that i want to see him tkae on Thor first then i will decide.
#44 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415:  
" @SC: I haven't gotten into any arguments with Thor fans, just Silver Surfer and Thanos Fans. Its up to you the person reading the comic to determine what makes the most sense in a very unbiased perspective. If comics are only for entertainment then how does one determine which character will be beat who. If it were to be based upon the people that know the character's abilities then it would just be a battle that of endless opinions that don't take the character's personal can't and can dos with their powers. Characters without their comics just have their images that display what they look like. If you have read 100 % of Thor comics then you would have been able to figure out whether or not Thor was holding back. Whether or not that was the Thor you fully understand who he is, what he has, his personal experience, character, personality. Of course from one scan of a character doing something you can't determine their abilities compared with the other character. But after you have read 100 % of their comics then you would know whether or not that is bullshit. "
 
Thats a rather odd premise, more books with characters are constantly being released, 100% of Thor's comics after issue #2 would suggest everything he did after those issues, according to you is BS. LOL, You are still suggesting that readers NEED, to know which characters beat other characters. One does not determine which characters beat who, thats not how it works. How do I determine which is the best ice cream flavor in the world? The you neglect the obvious middle ground, since otherwise, its not just endless opinions about characters, its a consistency thing and concerns writer intent.  
 
The person gets to decide for themselves. Opinions aren't facts. They can hold facts, they can share their opinions. You have skipped the part we you claim a fact and insert your opinion as the sole thing supporting your facts, thats all, it made me curious. Why would someone claim that Raspberry is the best ice cream flavor fact, and provide only opinion as to why? Why would one even express such a thing as a fact when their opinion is just as valid, its almost as if the mere potential of someone disagreeing with them, is preemptively annoying. 
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#45 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415 said:
" @SC:  Your honestly have not given any damn explanation about your super duper, colorful, great Thor. I am enjoying this, if you do join a debate club don't have too much of an open mind or your not going to win rotten apples. "
You have neglected half of the things i have brought up, pointing out flaws in your reasoning and I am not here to give explanation of Thor nor is he mine, that would be counter intuitive to everything I have been saying, but it seems again obvious, that your just looking for a Apocalypse vs Thor discussion? Try battles, it has no bearing on the logic you present.  
 
Me too, thats great ^_^, though one thing, I am not here for a debate, this is like a debate, I am not playing devils advocate or taking a stance. Am I now to assume you are playing Devils advocate here?  
 
Ultimately like I said before, if you feel your opinion is proof of fact, it shouldn't bother you if I claim its not. We could just post all replies to each other as, 'no I am right' 'No I am right' etc until one of use gets bored. 
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#46 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  Are you Cristina or Kerisha? The only 2 people that have told me what you have told me what you have told me about myself is those two. You are killing me.
#47 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  Do you want to fake box on the web camera?
#48 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415 said:
" @SC:  Are you Cristina or Kerisha? The only 2 people that have told me what you have told me what you have told me about myself is those two. You are killing me. "
@Super415 said:
" @SC:  Do you want to fake box on the web camera? "
 
Woah what? lol, sorry my friend, I am not a Cristina or Kerisha, or Fake Box?!?! I am sorry for the killing part though too lol I have no web camera either. 
 
If you wish, I can rephrase all my arguments in one single solitary post? I don't disagree with much of what you say, more so some of the wording, but i have no real opinion here anyway. So sorry if it seems like I am giving you trouble. ^_^
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#49 Posted by Super415 (106 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC:  You aren't literally giving me trouble, its a rap expression.
#50 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@Super415:  I suck when it comes to rap sorry. Most hip hop I listen to, I focus on the beat, unless its an artist whom I really like. My bad lol
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