In most comics and particularly 616, Apocalypse seems unbeatable but never really wins due to some flaw of nature/luck of the heroes (in my opinion). But he is invincible right? He can manipulate his entire body to do whatever his imagination wants. He can heal. His ship can resuscitate him, and he can always transfer to another body. Many people point out that he never really wins, but he is very patient and likes to have other people fight for him while he sits back and watches. So how powerful is he? Like vs. Galactus for example, or other very powerful people....
"In most comics and particularly 616, Apocalypse seems unbeatable but never really wins due to some flaw of nature/luck of the heroes (in my opinion). But he is invincible right? He can manipulate his entire body to do whatever his imagination wants. He can heal. His ship can resuscitate him, and he can always transfer to another body. Many people point out that he never really wins, but he is very patient and likes to have other people fight for him while he sits back and watches. So how powerful is he? Like vs. Galactus for example, or other very powerful people...."
For about 3/4 of his lifetime he was asleep, and since he is indebted to the Celestials, they won't LET him die. Big difference from being literally immortal.
"Unbelonger says:"Vs Galactus? Not even a chance. He is powerful, but not that much, Any character in Thor's level or above could beat him. zzzzzzz"Galactus is the eater of worlds, yeah it is pretty hard to believe that he is invincible. "
Waht i meant, is that apocalypsis has no chance against galactus, and that any character in Thor's(example) level should be able to beat Apocalypsis.
"Thor a god he beats Apocalypse by default but the Celestials wanted apocalypse to do stuff for them in return for letting him "borrow" the technology but i think he may be Immortal in the sense that after he dies he can live in the astral plane & take over another body kinda like cyber did to that kid .. .
Morphid says:"Unbelonger says:"Vs Galactus? Not even a chance. He is powerful, but not that much, Any character in Thor's level or above could beat him. zzzzzzz"Galactus is the eater of worlds, yeah it is pretty hard to believe that he is invincible. "
Waht i meant, is that apocalypsis has no chance against galactus, and that any character in Thor's(example) level should be able to beat Apocalypsis.
Remember things have limits, Apocalypse can not, control his body to the extent that he can manipulate it to his imaginations extent. Galactus can't even do that, unless he has no imagination lol, He (Apocalypse) can only manipulate it (his body) molecularly, I forget right now the extent, it might be more precise. This means, he can increase his density to a certain point, and increase his size to a certain point, but only to a limit, to which we have not seen yet, but its there, and physically its going to be at a molecular level, but the actual limit, will probably be mentally. He could of course absorb more energy and matter, but that would have a limit as well.
Didn't Thor actually whup Harbinger pretty easy, sending him flying, Harbinger had the power to adapt or something, he came back and got a lucky shot on Thor, hitting him away as well, but then people realized he was a bomb and he had to be dealt with, and so Thor and Harbinger never really had a good crack at each other? I am suspicious of people of how people phrase the word beat, at this site. Apparently everyone is at full power and never holding back, and you get beat if you get pushed off panel and aren't back in two panels.
Apocalypse was also worshipped as a god at one point as well, so wary of comparisons. Titles don't always define power, least of all, physical power.
" @SC: It was Harbinger who sent Thor flying right after he called him a false idol. If you have the comic you should read it yourself. "
I do have the comic, the ones before and after it too. Harbinger was doing okay against Avengers till Thor showed up, and then later he did much better against Thor, but its extremely flawed logic to think he was then more powerful than Thor, and whether he could continue adapting, and what constitutes a "beat" and is the term applied consistently here?
Your use of the word "useless" also appears quite flawed too, almost as if you are trying to imply something like your opinion as fact. Perhaps you could detail the nature of it being useless. Thor struck him and nothing, literally happened? Maybe it was a testing blow, even if it had no effect, it would still have a use. So on.
" @SC: If you remember what Iron man said about Harbinger getting stronger by the moment. Harbinger in the Cable 68 said " I was built to survive my enemy's worst". I am not trying to turn my opinion into a fact, all I am stating are facts from the comic itself. Adaptability is Bruce Lee's concept of Jee Kun Do. Which means you become like water and flow with what it is your fighting. With Harbinger his power is literally this idea of Bruce Lee, the only difference is Harbinger's body adapts automatically. You should read comics with deep analysis if you are going to to post on a debate forum. Because you are going to miss out on the small details that make you miss the big picture. "
Thats narrative and a common narrative technique at that, my friend. Many characters say lots of other things about characters that are false or have option for different context. I appreciate your analogy but its unnecessary. I apologize if your attempt is at providing objective information, you seem just a little heavy handed to me with your choice of words, especially to the other poster prior. Oh, I definitely read comics with a great deal of attention and care, but this is not a debate forum lol, its a comic forum, and there is such a thing as reading into your own interpretation more than the actual story. You seem to neglect most characters would adapt to an extent as well, it doesn't mean that their ability to adapt is limitless. Same application to The Fury and Doomsday.
You also did not cover your use of the word "useless" which again, is a curious choice for someone attempting to state facts objectively.
Maybe I do have a full understanding of Thor, who is the person who gets to decide that it is a full understanding, or just a 98% understanding? You keep misusing the word fact again, please don't get defensive, but lack of facts can't create facts, no matter how much you insist. I didn't claim facts about Thor's attacks, I cited lack of facts, as an example. How could you miss that? My only conclusion is that you see something as a potential positive for Thor and you wildly start arguing even if the particular argument has nothing to do with him at all. Its otherwise cherry picking, if my argument was that it was a fact Thor was holding back, despite nothing on panel to indicate it in this comic, then my argument would be the exact same as yours.
Then you follow this up with statements that aren't being disputed, you feel I am trying to claim Mojo created Harbinger from Wolverines shaved off and collected sideburns?
Plus hey, you seem to know a lot about Apocalypse, and Harbinger and thats awesome, but your phrasing of certain words and logic? Opinion backed with solid reasoning is as potent as facts, it still seems weird to me that you would pass things that are clearly not facts, as facts. We can ultimately agree to disagree there.
Then you are basically saying we can't determine facts from comics. That is completely wrong, you determine facts from comics by under what age of comics, whether the character is a classic version or not, under which writer is the character being written. You claim these lack of facts are present in the Cable 68 yet you don't seem to understand what Harbinger really is. I saw in Cable 67 that Thor put him in a diffferent dimension he adapted and got stronger, then in Cable 68 Thor attacked him once more only to be blasted back. Harbinger adapts, I really doubt that Thor was holding back when he hit pit Harbinger into another dimension. Even if Thor hit him with a god blast Harbinger would adapt. Please understand this finally. HE ADAPTS, REREAD THE COMIC ONCE MORE.
Hundreds, thousands of Avengers fans would, and do disagree with you. Especially when it comes to Bendis, Slott, and so on, I am not sure what your point is here surely you know this. Consistency is subjective, you must also realize.
Oh, i missed your first post, no good sir, please don't try and present a very flawed argument, and attribute it to me, of course we can obtain facts from comics, but just like we can't make up any fact we want from a comic, there will be examples that fall into one or the other. I am saying many of your facts, fall into the category of not actually being facts. You think Harbinger is Bruce Lee, and get upset at people for disagreeing with you (your use of caps, i'll attribute that as upset or angry, I may be incorrect) i have read the comic, and the fact that you readily admit the use of and lack of doubt, firmly establishes he fact that your use of the word fact was premature. Otherwise you could present me a scan, where Thor says that he is definitely not holding back, and then the TOAA flies down and says... "yep... Thor is definitely not holding back" and then you have reason to invoke a fact, but more than that, this emphasis on Thor, you haven't gotten into arguments with guys with Hammer avatars have you? lol Might that be the reason you seem more hung up on that rather than the heart of the argument, establishing what is factual within fictional elements? (or potentially adaptability and its limits)
Man, are you enjoying this? I am, I always wanted to be on the school debate team. >.>
" @Manchine: Hi again. ; ) May I ask how exactly the Hulk can defeat Apocalypse? I am aware that you told me he only defeated a dying Hulk, but still. "
Same way he beats everyone pound him into paste. Even Apocalypse can only handle so much.
" Same way he beats everyone pound him into paste. Even Apocalypse can only handle so much. "Hmm... Well, couldn't Apocalypse use his teleportation abilities to his advantage?
Also, can't Apocalypse make himself intangible? How would the Hulk touch him then?
Furthermore, how is the Hulk going to damage Apocalypse when he grows to a very large size?
TP is gonna give him a very small advantage. For a very short time. If he turns Intangible he won't beat hulk and that will just make him angrier and he will get stronger. If apocalypse grows it will just be easier for hulk to hit him. He still won't be as strong as the hulk. Hulk has the power to take him down but apocalypse doesn't have the power to take Hulk down. Apocalypse can run away but thats about it. If he fights him he loses.
Its obvious Hulk can beat Apocalypse. The main question how can Apocalypse beat hulk.
Well, if he goes intangible, then couldn't Apocalypse transform his arms into slicing blades and chop off the Hulk's head?
Oh, I know, but is the Hulk going to just hit Apocalypse's leg when he is in a big size? Is he going to climb up and hit Apoc. in the head?
Hmm taking everytinhg into consideration from the harbinger fight with Thor and how he is weaker then apoc, but then the possibility of thor holding back. then we know apocalypse casualy whipes te floor with the x-men which for hulk's case we only saw the green scar do (casauly whip the floor with them, not struggle in beating them) has'ent he taken on more then 1 team of x-men at once? (apoc) anyways. taking all this into consideration i believe he could take on silver surfer (before he got Amped and able to take out BRB) at have fair chance of winning (Unless silver surfer realy wants to Kill him...black holes in eyes..) i dont see him beating Thanos though, i think he could take on darkseid though (depending on if the OE are going to jobb when used or not) but thats just me, maby he could realy beat Thor which would put him some where near thanos's level but....i dont want to start an argument i dont even know about that i want to see him tkae on Thor first then i will decide.
" @SC: I haven't gotten into any arguments with Thor fans, just Silver Surfer and Thanos Fans. Its up to you the person reading the comic to determine what makes the most sense in a very unbiased perspective. If comics are only for entertainment then how does one determine which character will be beat who. If it were to be based upon the people that know the character's abilities then it would just be a battle that of endless opinions that don't take the character's personal can't and can dos with their powers. Characters without their comics just have their images that display what they look like. If you have read 100 % of Thor comics then you would have been able to figure out whether or not Thor was holding back. Whether or not that was the Thor you fully understand who he is, what he has, his personal experience, character, personality. Of course from one scan of a character doing something you can't determine their abilities compared with the other character. But after you have read 100 % of their comics then you would know whether or not that is bullshit. "
Thats a rather odd premise, more books with characters are constantly being released, 100% of Thor's comics after issue #2 would suggest everything he did after those issues, according to you is BS. LOL, You are still suggesting that readers NEED, to know which characters beat other characters. One does not determine which characters beat who, thats not how it works. How do I determine which is the best ice cream flavor in the world? The you neglect the obvious middle ground, since otherwise, its not just endless opinions about characters, its a consistency thing and concerns writer intent.
The person gets to decide for themselves. Opinions aren't facts. They can hold facts, they can share their opinions. You have skipped the part we you claim a fact and insert your opinion as the sole thing supporting your facts, thats all, it made me curious. Why would someone claim that Raspberry is the best ice cream flavor fact, and provide only opinion as to why? Why would one even express such a thing as a fact when their opinion is just as valid, its almost as if the mere potential of someone disagreeing with them, is preemptively annoying.
" @SC: Your honestly have not given any damn explanation about your super duper, colorful, great Thor. I am enjoying this, if you do join a debate club don't have too much of an open mind or your not going to win rotten apples. "You have neglected half of the things i have brought up, pointing out flaws in your reasoning and I am not here to give explanation of Thor nor is he mine, that would be counter intuitive to everything I have been saying, but it seems again obvious, that your just looking for a Apocalypse vs Thor discussion? Try battles, it has no bearing on the logic you present.
Me too, thats great ^_^, though one thing, I am not here for a debate, this is like a debate, I am not playing devils advocate or taking a stance. Am I now to assume you are playing Devils advocate here?
Ultimately like I said before, if you feel your opinion is proof of fact, it shouldn't bother you if I claim its not. We could just post all replies to each other as, 'no I am right' 'No I am right' etc until one of use gets bored.
" @SC: Are you Cristina or Kerisha? The only 2 people that have told me what you have told me what you have told me about myself is those two. You are killing me. "@Super415 said:
" @SC: Do you want to fake box on the web camera? "
Woah what? lol, sorry my friend, I am not a Cristina or Kerisha, or Fake Box?!?! I am sorry for the killing part though too lol I have no web camera either.
If you wish, I can rephrase all my arguments in one single solitary post? I don't disagree with much of what you say, more so some of the wording, but i have no real opinion here anyway. So sorry if it seems like I am giving you trouble. ^_^
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